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Hi. I have completed endurance events such as Ironman and Marathon Des Sables but have never done any climbing. My friend says we should climb the Matterhorn in winter (guided). Another friend suggested there were easier ways to commit suicide? Any advice from experienced climbers would be appreciated?
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Have a chat with the guide(s), and BE HONEST about your experience or lack-of. If he takes the booking you are good to go, if he doesn't then you already know why.
> My friend says we should climb the Matterhorn in winter (guided).
Have a chat with the guide(s), and BE HONEST about your experience or lack-of. If he takes the booking you are good to go, if he doesn't then you already know why.
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
When you say "you have never done any climbing"- do you mean literally that-i.e.none at all of any sort? And your asking if the Matterhorn in winter is a sensible choice for your first climb? Don't be silly.
When you say "you have never done any climbing"- do you mean literally that-i.e.none at all of any sort? And your asking if the Matterhorn in winter is a sensible choice for your first climb? Don't be silly.
Post edited at 22:09
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
If you literally haven't climbed as in can't tie a figure of eight then my advice would be don't even think about it.
If you want to climb the matterhorn there are ways of building up to it but just jumping straight on it is not a good idea.
If you want an alp to climb Mt Blanc is a much better bet. It's not an easy option and in terms of physical challenge it's very similar to the matterhorn but it's much better suited to a 2 novices + guide ascent.
If you literally haven't climbed as in can't tie a figure of eight then my advice would be don't even think about it.
If you want to climb the matterhorn there are ways of building up to it but just jumping straight on it is not a good idea.
If you want an alp to climb Mt Blanc is a much better bet. It's not an easy option and in terms of physical challenge it's very similar to the matterhorn but it's much better suited to a 2 novices + guide ascent.
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Costs about 3k online, but it looks like you would need to have more experience before they would consider you, cool target, hard
Costs about 3k online, but it looks like you would need to have more experience before they would consider you, cool target, hard
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In reply to John Kelly:
Main reason for such high price mark is because Marathon is guided with 1:1 ratio. The actual climb is a race against the clock. You won't learn much and may get a feeling of being dragged to the top. If you will get to the top. Research success rating of guided Matterhorn climbs and you will be quite surprised!
I have participated in Ironman and the like. Compared to climbing Matterhorn even in summer it's like a walk in a park.
Here's a good report of two climbers: http://www.summitpost.org/matterhorn-in-winter-tastes-bittersweet/275697
> Costs about 3k online, but it looks like you would need to have more experience before they would consider you, cool target, hard
Main reason for such high price mark is because Marathon is guided with 1:1 ratio. The actual climb is a race against the clock. You won't learn much and may get a feeling of being dragged to the top. If you will get to the top. Research success rating of guided Matterhorn climbs and you will be quite surprised!
I have participated in Ironman and the like. Compared to climbing Matterhorn even in summer it's like a walk in a park.
Here's a good report of two climbers: http://www.summitpost.org/matterhorn-in-winter-tastes-bittersweet/275697
Post edited at 23:13
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
I've climbing the Matterhorn in Winter (up Zmutt down Hornli). It's serious. It's technical, long and cold. All three of us on the mountain were happy leading Scottich Grade V.
Speak to your Guide, but expect him/her to want to do some training climbs with you first.
I've climbing the Matterhorn in Winter (up Zmutt down Hornli). It's serious. It's technical, long and cold. All three of us on the mountain were happy leading Scottich Grade V.
Speak to your Guide, but expect him/her to want to do some training climbs with you first.
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
I don't have any experience to back any of what I say up but: my first reaction was, is this a joke?
Everything seems doable from the comfort of the sofa while you're looking at guided packages. But get real. If you've no experience they could very well take your money, get you 40% of the way, and then tell you they're unable to continue. Sorry, no refunds, we're paid to attempt, not to guarantee success.
There's always a bit of a misconception that having a guide compensates for a lack of just about anything else, and that's simply not true, and can often result in a failed trip - I have heard this from guides themselves.
My feelings are that you should enjoy some of the winter climbs the country you're in has to offer first, before undertaking a technical, serious alpine climb on an infamous mountain. However, I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who knows better.
You're obviously very fit and active, and probably as good a climber as any novice could hope to be, it would be a real shame to waste a trip. Get up some Scottish technical routes first I say. I know that's what I'd do.
I don't have any experience to back any of what I say up but: my first reaction was, is this a joke?
Everything seems doable from the comfort of the sofa while you're looking at guided packages. But get real. If you've no experience they could very well take your money, get you 40% of the way, and then tell you they're unable to continue. Sorry, no refunds, we're paid to attempt, not to guarantee success.
There's always a bit of a misconception that having a guide compensates for a lack of just about anything else, and that's simply not true, and can often result in a failed trip - I have heard this from guides themselves.
My feelings are that you should enjoy some of the winter climbs the country you're in has to offer first, before undertaking a technical, serious alpine climb on an infamous mountain. However, I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who knows better.
You're obviously very fit and active, and probably as good a climber as any novice could hope to be, it would be a real shame to waste a trip. Get up some Scottish technical routes first I say. I know that's what I'd do.
Post edited at 13:33
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Would you think it a good idea for a climber who's never done any running whatsoever, to do the Marathon Des Sables as their first run?
If the answer is no, then you've answered your own question.
If the answer is yes, make sure your life insurance premiums are up to date.
> Hi. I have completed endurance events such as Ironman and Marathon Des Sables but have never done any climbing. My friend says we should climb the Matterhorn in winter (guided). Another friend suggested there were easier ways to commit suicide? Any advice from experienced climbers would be appreciated?
Would you think it a good idea for a climber who's never done any running whatsoever, to do the Marathon Des Sables as their first run?
If the answer is no, then you've answered your own question.
If the answer is yes, make sure your life insurance premiums are up to date.
Post edited at 14:27
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Simon, I advise you not to climb the Matterhorn in winter with a guide at present.
> Hi.... My friend says we should climb the Matterhorn in winter (guided)....
Simon, I advise you not to climb the Matterhorn in winter with a guide at present.
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Thanks for all the replies all. It would appear that everyone seems to be suggesting the same thing. Of course I'm not suggesting there wouldn't be other climbs along the way but it reinforces that it really is a difficult challenge. Thanks.
Thanks for all the replies all. It would appear that everyone seems to be suggesting the same thing. Of course I'm not suggesting there wouldn't be other climbs along the way but it reinforces that it really is a difficult challenge. Thanks.
> Hi. I have completed endurance events such as Ironman and Marathon Des Sables but have never done any climbing. My friend says we should climb the Matterhorn in winter (guided). Another friend suggested there were easier ways to commit suicide? Any advice from experienced climbers would be appreciated?
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Despite all the above comments you seem to still be seriously considering this. By all accounts you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Call Abacus Mountaineering in Fort Bill and get them to take you up Tower Ridge. That's a big day out on a classic route. It's not the technicality of the Matterhorn (from the looks of it) but it's a good start - and they still may advise that you do something like Ledge Route in winter first.
> Thanks for all the replies all. It would appear that everyone seems to be suggesting the same thing. Of course I'm not suggesting there wouldn't be other climbs along the way but it reinforces that it really is a difficult challenge. Thanks.
Despite all the above comments you seem to still be seriously considering this. By all accounts you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Call Abacus Mountaineering in Fort Bill and get them to take you up Tower Ridge. That's a big day out on a classic route. It's not the technicality of the Matterhorn (from the looks of it) but it's a good start - and they still may advise that you do something like Ledge Route in winter first.
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
The question which your post raises in my mind is do you really want to become a climber? Being guided up Matterhorn even in winter doesn't make you one. Or perhaps you want to do this and then move onto the next challenge/box to tick. No doubt there are plenty of guides who would get you up there and back down as you clearly are fit enough, but it doesn't seem like something you'd choose if you wanted to be an independent climber rather than a paying client. And nobody has mentioned altitude sickness yet. It can hit anyone really hard above 3,500m however fit they may be. You would need a week of acclimatisation before tackling a 4,000m+ peak.
As I'm intimating above, I wonder about your motives.
The question which your post raises in my mind is do you really want to become a climber? Being guided up Matterhorn even in winter doesn't make you one. Or perhaps you want to do this and then move onto the next challenge/box to tick. No doubt there are plenty of guides who would get you up there and back down as you clearly are fit enough, but it doesn't seem like something you'd choose if you wanted to be an independent climber rather than a paying client. And nobody has mentioned altitude sickness yet. It can hit anyone really hard above 3,500m however fit they may be. You would need a week of acclimatisation before tackling a 4,000m+ peak.
As I'm intimating above, I wonder about your motives.
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In reply to Rog Wilko:
I'd be very surprised if any guide would take him with even a small amount of experience, let alone none in winter?
Having decended the Hornli in winter, it is a completely different proposition to summer, being much more difficult technically and a more serious undertaking generally. It's also a bloody cold place in winter too - even in settled weather (and the Matterhorn is very unpredictable on that score). I certainly wouldn't want to be caught out in a storm in winter up there.
> The question which your post raises in my mind is do you really want to become a climber? Being guided up Matterhorn even in winter doesn't make you one. Or perhaps you want to do this and then move onto the next challenge/box to tick. No doubt there are plenty of guides who would get you up there and back down as you clearly are fit enough, but it doesn't seem like something you'd choose if you wanted to be an independent climber rather than a paying client. And nobody has mentioned altitude sickness yet. It can hit anyone really hard above 3,500m however fit they may be. You would need a week of acclimatisation before tackling a 4,000m+ peak.
> As I'm intimating above, I wonder about your motives.
I'd be very surprised if any guide would take him with even a small amount of experience, let alone none in winter?
Having decended the Hornli in winter, it is a completely different proposition to summer, being much more difficult technically and a more serious undertaking generally. It's also a bloody cold place in winter too - even in settled weather (and the Matterhorn is very unpredictable on that score). I certainly wouldn't want to be caught out in a storm in winter up there.
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Why the Matterhorn ?
Sorry, but your friend sounds like an idiot or a joker at best and you appear very gullible.
Why the Matterhorn ?
Sorry, but your friend sounds like an idiot or a joker at best and you appear very gullible.
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
I'm wondering if you've got the wrong impression from Kilian Jornet and people like him, and are imagining climbing the Matterhorn as a sort of variation of ultra-running, basically just another extreme endurance event. It's not.
Mountaineering is a different sport (if you even want to call it a sport at all, which some of us don't) completely. It requires assorted skills which you don't yet have, and involves a lot of objective risks which you aren't yet familiar with. Yes, having a base of great cardiovascular fitness will be handy, but it's only a small part of what you need.
Jornet does what he does because he's an ultra-runner who is *also* an extremely experienced mountaineer.
If you want to get into climbing/mountaineering, that's great, but you have to think of it as taking up a new sport from scratch, rather than as an add-on/extension to what you're already doing.
I'm wondering if you've got the wrong impression from Kilian Jornet and people like him, and are imagining climbing the Matterhorn as a sort of variation of ultra-running, basically just another extreme endurance event. It's not.
Mountaineering is a different sport (if you even want to call it a sport at all, which some of us don't) completely. It requires assorted skills which you don't yet have, and involves a lot of objective risks which you aren't yet familiar with. Yes, having a base of great cardiovascular fitness will be handy, but it's only a small part of what you need.
Jornet does what he does because he's an ultra-runner who is *also* an extremely experienced mountaineer.
If you want to get into climbing/mountaineering, that's great, but you have to think of it as taking up a new sport from scratch, rather than as an add-on/extension to what you're already doing.
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In reply to Goucho:
Take your point. But Steve Monks did manage last summer to get Jamie Andrew up there with 4 limb amputations. An interesting question as to which would be most challenging (for the guide, that is).
> I'd be very surprised if any guide would take him with even a small amount of experience, let alone none in winter?
Take your point. But Steve Monks did manage last summer to get Jamie Andrew up there with 4 limb amputations. An interesting question as to which would be most challenging (for the guide, that is).
In reply to Rog Wilko:
True, but Jamie Andrew was an experienced climber prior to his awful epic on the Droites, so knew his way round TD+/ED alpine ground.
The inescapable truth, is there is only so much a guide can do for a client if the shit hits the fan - the client ultimately still has to contribute to their own survival. Never underestimate the psychological factor of alpine climbing?
If I had to choose between Jamie Andrews on the Hornli in summer, and a complete novice in winter, I think I'd go for the former.
> Take your point. But Steve Monks did manage last summer to get Jamie Andrew up there with 4 limb amputations. An interesting question as to which would be most challenging (for the guide, that is).
True, but Jamie Andrew was an experienced climber prior to his awful epic on the Droites, so knew his way round TD+/ED alpine ground.
The inescapable truth, is there is only so much a guide can do for a client if the shit hits the fan - the client ultimately still has to contribute to their own survival. Never underestimate the psychological factor of alpine climbing?
If I had to choose between Jamie Andrews on the Hornli in summer, and a complete novice in winter, I think I'd go for the former.
Post edited at 13:25
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Thinking you might be more suited to signing up for an everest or seven summits attempt.
Thinking you might be more suited to signing up for an everest or seven summits attempt.
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In reply to becauseitsthere:
The OP does appear to be an "experience junkie" type. Presumably the Matterhorn in winter idea is based on it sounding suitably extreme, but without the extra expense of an 8,000m peak.
> Thinking you might be more suited to signing up for an everest or seven summits attempt.
The OP does appear to be an "experience junkie" type. Presumably the Matterhorn in winter idea is based on it sounding suitably extreme, but without the extra expense of an 8,000m peak.
In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Once again thanks for all the replies, even the slightly insulting ones!
For my parting shot, I'd like to suggest that there is a difference between me and my friend being idiots, gullible or naive and simply an inexperienced person looking for quality feedback from a forum of experienced climbers. My friend is ex-special forces and I'm guessing has been up a couple of mountains in his time. I get a nose bleed climbing the stairs so I'm a long way off and wasn't suggesting that id be giving it a go in a couple of weeks. I am looking for something different and challenging but I agree with the Forum that this is probably not it or at least not at this time. Again thanks for the input guys/girls, it really has helped to make a decision. Stay safe.
Once again thanks for all the replies, even the slightly insulting ones!
For my parting shot, I'd like to suggest that there is a difference between me and my friend being idiots, gullible or naive and simply an inexperienced person looking for quality feedback from a forum of experienced climbers. My friend is ex-special forces and I'm guessing has been up a couple of mountains in his time. I get a nose bleed climbing the stairs so I'm a long way off and wasn't suggesting that id be giving it a go in a couple of weeks. I am looking for something different and challenging but I agree with the Forum that this is probably not it or at least not at this time. Again thanks for the input guys/girls, it really has helped to make a decision. Stay safe.
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In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
My friend is ex-special forces and I'm guessing has been up a couple of mountains in his time.
The Brecon Beacons is not generally considered to be the best training for alpine winter climbing?
> Once again thanks for all the replies, even the slightly insulting ones!
My friend is ex-special forces and I'm guessing has been up a couple of mountains in his time.
The Brecon Beacons is not generally considered to be the best training for alpine winter climbing?
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In reply to Goucho:
That's selection. Most operational special forces will be fairly proficient in the mountains. Both summer and winter.
That's selection. Most operational special forces will be fairly proficient in the mountains. Both summer and winter.
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In reply to elliott92:
Yes I know - I've climbed with a couple of them.
However, to climb in the alps in winter, you need to be more than fairly proficient.
> That's selection. Most operational special forces will be fairly proficient in the mountains. Both summer and winter.
Yes I know - I've climbed with a couple of them.
However, to climb in the alps in winter, you need to be more than fairly proficient.
In reply to Simon Trusty Dunn:
Don't worry too much about the people being more, lets say forthcoming about their judgements. You get them everywhere in all short of activities and just need a bit of thick skin to ignore the delivery while taking the message.
If you still want to pursue that challenge you probably got the gist that it isn't something that you can just jump on it, so how about you start working on getting prepared for it with the view of achieving next winter or the next? Put the time and effort and it will feel a bigger accomplishment, and as a bonus you get to enjoy some time in Scotland this winter, Alps in the summer, and then lets see what comes after that.
> I'd like to suggest that there is a difference between me and my friend being idiots, gullible or naive and simply an inexperienced person looking for quality feedback from a forum of experienced climbers.
Don't worry too much about the people being more, lets say forthcoming about their judgements. You get them everywhere in all short of activities and just need a bit of thick skin to ignore the delivery while taking the message.
If you still want to pursue that challenge you probably got the gist that it isn't something that you can just jump on it, so how about you start working on getting prepared for it with the view of achieving next winter or the next? Put the time and effort and it will feel a bigger accomplishment, and as a bonus you get to enjoy some time in Scotland this winter, Alps in the summer, and then lets see what comes after that.
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In reply to Goucho:
Pretty sure most SF would have more in the bag than a lot of those who get guided
In the alps.
Pretty sure most SF would have more in the bag than a lot of those who get guided
In the alps.
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