UKC

Mountain Rescue

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 JEF 07 Dec 2016
If you are unlucky enough to get injured whilst climbing and that necessitates a rescue do you end up with a bill for services rendered?
This is a genuine question that my wife asked, as the climber in the family I don't know the answer.
Does a helicopter evac alter the situation?
 climbwhenready 07 Dec 2016
In reply to JEF:

It is free. MRTs are charities. This is why a lot of people donate to them...

Helicopters are paid for by the taxpayer.
OP JEF 07 Dec 2016
In reply to climbwhenready:

Pretty much what we thought, but had to throw it to the combined might of UKC! Thanks
 toad 07 Dec 2016
In reply to climbwhenready:

This is why a lot of people donate to them...


Hint hint


August West 07 Dec 2016
In reply to climbwhenready:
> Helicopters are paid for by the taxpayer.

Coastguard helicopters (which can winch and fly at night, and have recently taken over mountain rescue duties from RAF helicopters) are paid for by the taxpayer.

Air ambulances (which have to land to collect their patient, and are grounded after sunset) are paid for by charitable donations.

There is no charge to the end user for either.
Post edited at 23:31
 Welsh Kate 07 Dec 2016
In reply to JEF:

MR team members are all volunteers. In addition to the time we spend training and the time we spend helping people, we also fundraise to keep our teams going. But we do it because it's fun, challenging, and to give something back
 DerwentDiluted 08 Dec 2016
In reply to JEF:

As Welsh Kate says, civillian MRTs in the UK are entirely voluntary, staffed by members who give up large amounts of time to provide what in my opinion, is a world class SAR provision. All do it because they can, want to give something back to society, and as outdoor people themselves, recognise that participants in higher risk activities need to be more self reliant as individuals and as a community, than participants in other sports. However these skills are placed at the service of the whole community, and most teams will encounter dog walkers, the elderly, the vulnerable and the unfortunate in many non-mountain incidents.

In the UK this provision is provided free of charge, but it is not free, it costs around £45-100k to keep most teams operational, and teams receive no direct government money. All money is raised by team members and supporters. Individual team members receive no expenses and would prefer not to think about what being a member costs them in kit, fuel, boot leather and batteries.

The helicopter provision comes from the air ambulances which are run by charities, and the bigger helicopters are provided by the taxpayer for all UK search and rescue provision on and off shore. This is privately operated but is free to the user, they are called in by MR when their capabilities (bad weather and night flying, on board access to casualty for ongoing treatment, winching etc) are required. RAF mountain rescue teams are made up of service personnel and will assist if on scene, but are not called to, non military incidents, being there for recovery of military air crashes.

All of this is free, but it is a precious resource, the last resort of the unfortunate rather than first call for the lazy. Initiating a callout means people leaving work, losing income, disrupting plans, burning their own petrol, leaving family meals and losing a nights sleep. All of which will be done happily and without question.
But what really makes it work is the support from husbands and wives, partners, employers, children and friends, it genuinely only operates because of the goodwill and patience of those around the team member.
 tjin 08 Dec 2016
In reply to JEF:

It does depend on the country. In Switzerland; here is the bill, insurance card or creditcard?
 marsbar 08 Dec 2016
In reply to JEF:
You can donate to individual teams, or centrally

https://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/teams

http://www.scottishmountainrescue.org/donate-to-scottish-mountain-rescue/

Gift aid means they get the tax back.
Post edited at 08:59
 Greasy Prusiks 08 Dec 2016
In reply to Welsh Kate:

And it's a really good excuse to pull some serious hero poses!
4
 nathan79 08 Dec 2016
In reply to marsbar:

I was unaware you could donate centrally. Good info to know. I've always donated to individual teams in the past, this'll make deciding which team gets my money each month a thing of the past.
 mp3ferret 08 Dec 2016
In reply to nathan79:

Donating localy is different to donating to MREW. MREW do now supply the teams with some equipment/ppe - but don't really support the day to day costs of the teams. Donating to a team means that they can decide how to spend the money - they may need a new vehicle, new equipment that isn't provided by mrew (which is most of it), Fuel, new base, etc, etc.

Just worth keeping in mind. I'm not saying its not worth donating directly to mrew - they do a lot of good (although sometimes in contention with the actual teams).

Marc
OP JEF 08 Dec 2016
In reply to JEF:

Thanks everyone.
I'm going to talk to my club about fundraising for the New Year.
 GrantM 08 Dec 2016
In reply to DerwentDiluted:
> In the UK this provision is provided free of charge, but it is not free, it costs around £45-100k to keep most teams operational, and teams receive no direct government money. All money is raised by team members and supporters.

Obviously it doesn't cover all costs, but there is govt funding for mountain rescue in the UK. The Scottish govt gives £312k annually to MRCofS, who pass it on to individual teams and AFAIK there's a similar arrangement in England & Wales.
http://www.scottishmountainrescue.org/member-page/mrcos-documents/grant-fun...
Post edited at 17:34
 mp3ferret 08 Dec 2016
In reply to GrantM:

> Obviously it doesn't cover all costs, but there is govt funding for mountain rescue in the UK.

Uk teams receive no direct government funding. We can apply for various grants and receive vat breaks on certain things - but, just to reiterate, we receive no direct funding. Which is why we rely so much on pubic donations.

You are correct about the scottish teams though (lucky buggers)



 Nbrain 08 Dec 2016
In reply to JEF:

And the some of the air ambulances in Scotland are run by the Ambulance service and similar in Wales now.
 Simon Caldwell 08 Dec 2016
In reply to GrantM:

> AFAIK there's a similar arrangement in England & Wales.

Nope
 andrewmc 08 Dec 2016
In reply to mp3ferret:

the Scots haven't left the UK yet! :P
 marsbar 08 Dec 2016
In reply to GrantM:

Yet another thing on my list of why Scotland should be in charge of England.
1
 Kimberley 09 Dec 2016
In reply to mp3ferret:

Scottish teams are UK teams.......
 Bootrock 09 Dec 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> Yet another thing on my list of why Scotland should be in charge of England.

sweet jesus no. just no. Its just another case of scotland wanting to be all special and different. We cant even get it right in Scotland. The emergency services have taken a battering and are up the creek.

Dont copy scotland for the love of god. keep your boroughs and dont centralise. its a load of shit.

Do you like the idea of using tax payers money to brand a dead language on your emergency vehicles and roadsigns?
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 mp3ferret 09 Dec 2016
In reply to andrewmcleod:

Good point - but you know what i meant
 gavmac 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

Some points in your statement may be correct but dead language is not one of them.
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 Bootrock 09 Dec 2016
In reply to gavmac:
> Some points in your statement may be correct but dead language is not one of them.

More people speak Polish than Gaelic in Scotland. Its dead, not in use in vast areas of Scotland. Its a dying language. It would be interesting as a cultural thing but to waste time money and effort to effectively make road sings cluttered and harder to read, is pointless.
Post edited at 17:06
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 gavmac 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

The Polish aspect is irrelevant.

You confuse two issues. I don't disagree that insisting on Gaelic translations on all road signs is a waste of money (it is of course appropriate in the Western Isles and Skye for example). But that doesn't make it a dead language. Its relevance to me as a Highlander and as a mountaineer is incredibly important.

Gaelic has at times received more funding from the public purse that you or I may agree with. That doesn't make it a dead language.
1
 marsbar 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

I don't really care what gets put on signs and vehicles, the cost doesn't make much difference for one language than two. What I see is Scottish politicians who seem to give a @&£ about ordinary people, and don't say crap like we are in this together whilst wearing clothes that cost more than an average family earn in a month.
2
 richprideaux 09 Dec 2016
In reply to mp3ferret:

> Donating localy is different to donating to MREW. MREW do now supply the teams with some equipment/ppe - but don't really support the day to day costs of the teams. Donating to a team means that they can decide how to spend the money - they may need a new vehicle, new equipment that isn't provided by mrew (which is most of it), Fuel, new base, etc, etc.

It's also worth paying attention to which team you are donating to. The one you've probably heard of in a busy mountain area and has a high operational tempo may actually be doing ok for funds. The neighbouring team who get fewer calloutshas to train and equip itself to a similar level with broadly similar costs, but gets much less media and financial attention. I tend to encourage people to spread it around whichever tin they see on the bar...

> Just worth keeping in mind. I'm not saying its not worth donating directly to mrew - they do a lot of good (although sometimes in contention with the actual teams).

A national structure (like the RNLI) rather than membership of an organisation is the future though - the difference in operating procedures, equipment and even standards of medical care between teams even in the same region would probably surprise the general public.


1
 rogerwebb 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

I don't know where you live in Scotland but I can assure that on the Western Isles and Skye it is very much a living language.
damhan-allaidh 09 Dec 2016
In reply to rogerwebb:

Except speaking it to non-Gaels. In 20 years, I've held more Gaelic conversations with myself then anyone else. On the other hand, when nobody suspects you speak it...I've overheard some cracking conversations.
 rogerwebb 09 Dec 2016
In reply to damhan-allaidh:
>!On the other hand, when nobody suspects you speak it...I've overheard some cracking conversations.

There have been many occasions when I wished I could do that!

damhan-allaidh 09 Dec 2016
In reply to rogerwebb:

If you feel sufficiently motivated to satisy your curiosity, I can highly recommend the distance learning courses at Sabhal Mor (as much for the socialising as for the Gaelic) Or if you can find an Ulpan or Ghadhlig san Dachaigh course.
 rogerwebb 09 Dec 2016
In reply to damhan-allaidh:

Thanks for the recommendation, I would give it a whirl but am currently struggling with Italian and have discovered that it wasn't my teachers' fault that I was rubbish at languages at school.
 Michael Gordon 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

I like seeing the gaelic on road signs. Nice to know what a place originally was called (yes I know this can and does change over the years anyway) before anglicisation.
3
 Bootrock 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I like seeing the gaelic on road signs. Nice to know what a place originally was called (yes I know this can and does change over the years anyway) before anglicisation.



I dont. I prefer to keep distractions at a minimum while I am driving and focus on the road and see my roadsigns uncluttered and easy to read. If I wanted a history lesson I would google it.

6
 Bootrock 10 Dec 2016
In reply to marsbar:

> I don't really care what gets put on signs and vehicles, the cost doesn't make much difference for one language than two. What I see is Scottish politicians who seem to give a @&£ about ordinary people, and don't say crap like we are in this together whilst wearing clothes that cost more than an average family earn in a month.


I do. I would rather that money,time and effort get spent on the life saving equipment inside the vehicles.

So you didnt see what Sturgeon was wearing to visit people in the floods in the North East then?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3392233/Socialist-Sturgeon-steps-17...
I hate the daily mail but it was the first link to come up.

And they obvioisly dont care about the Scottish People of they cant sort Education out and have made a shambles of the Emergency Services.

3
 marsbar 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Bootrock:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/theresa-may-s-995-trousers-sparked...

£180 on a warm jacket when it was a Christmas pressie and she's worn it for 2 years is expensive but isn't ridiculously expensive. I bet a few people on here have a jacket that's not cheap. At least it's practical.

Not in the same league as spending a grand on a pair of casual trousers or 3 grand on a suit.
 marsbar 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Bootrock:

Education, I wouldn't worry too much about PISA, the results are a bit dodgy. https://www.questia.com/magazine/1P3-3076706731/from-the-editor-pisa-is-not...
Jim C 10 Dec 2016
In reply to marsbar:
> You can donate to individual teams, or centrally
> https://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/who-we-are-and-what-we-do/teams
> http://www.scottishmountainrescue.org/donate-to-scottish-mountain-rescue/
> Gift aid means they get the tax back.

A good point, and if any of you are a 'hard to buy for' type, just drop some hints to family who your preferred MRT team is.
(I do this at work when they insist on buying everyone a gift up to the value of £50, on their birthdays, which in my view is usually wasted,so I swap between a dementia and MRT donation, and they don't need to think of things to buy me, everybody wins.)
Post edited at 18:21
Jim C 10 Dec 2016
In reply to gavmac:

> The Polish aspect is irrelevant.

> You confuse two issues. I don't disagree that insisting on Gaelic translations on all road signs is a waste of money (it is of course appropriate in the Western Isles and Skye for example). But that doesn't make it a dead language. Its relevance to me as a Highlander and as a mountaineer is incredibly important.

> Gaelic has at times received more funding from the public purse that you or I may agree with. That doesn't make it a dead language.

And of course, one of the reasons there areIn reply to Bootrock:

> More people speak Polish than Gaelic in Scotland. Its dead, not in use in vast areas of Scotland. Its a dying language. It would be interesting as a cultural thing but to waste time money and effort to effectively make road sings cluttered and harder to read, is pointless.

Given the Highland clearances when many of those people same people who previously occupied vast areas , and were speaking Gaelic , it is then not surprising then that fewer people are speaking.
If it is dying, it has been an assisted death.
damhan-allaidh 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim C:

Sorley Maclean once said, when it came to the viability of the Gaelic language that "the Highlander was his own worst enemy". I think also, to some extant, there hasn't been the same tenaciousness to hang on to the language as in Wales.
 gavmac 10 Dec 2016
In reply to damhan-allaidh:

That's an interesting point. I grew up in a Gaelic speaking house but was never taught (to my regret). I think if I was growing up now, I would have been taught. Whether that's because of an increase in Gaelic medium provision or maybe a renewed appreciation from Gaels for their language, I don't know.
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Jim C 10 Dec 2016
In reply to damhan-allaidh:
> Sorley Maclean once said, when it came to the viability of the Gaelic language that "the Highlander was his own worst enemy". I think also, to some extant, there hasn't been the same tenaciousness to hang on to the language as in Wales.

My old boss was a speaker, ( as is his wife) moved from Lewis to Glasgow, they had 3 kids and none of them have learned !
So a fair point.

Edit :- I was recently on Cape Clear where the Irish speaking school was, not sure how many pupils learn each year.
A great Hostel there too.
http://www.capeclearhostel.com/campaign.htm
Post edited at 21:31
damhan-allaidh 11 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim C:

Thank you for the link to Cape Clear - that looks tremendous and has definitely gone on our holiday list! Fastnet, too!

In reply to both you and gavmac, I don't know if this resonates with your experience, but talking wih the older generations of Gaels, Gaelic was not seen as something to be proud - backward and limiting if you wanted to get ahead in the world. There is a lovely book called Muinntir Mhiughalaigh (Community of Mingulay). The chapter on school shows the contradictory attitudes towards the value of Gaelic. I won't reproduce the whole thing (it's one of the only parts of the book in English), but these are some reflections recorded in the school diary:

1879: Gaelic should be less used
1881: The teacher should make more use of Gaelic
1882: Constant use of Gaelic should be made in cultivating intelligent comprehension
1884: Owing to the teacher reverting to almost exclusive use of Gaelic, children have not made expected progress
1885: (I love this one)"The vernacular is now used with more effect than hitherto."
1897: Gaelic is rubbish (I paraphrase)
and so on...
Jim C 11 Dec 2016
In reply to damhan-allaidh:

Thank you for the link to Cape Clear - that looks tremendous and has definitely gone on our holiday list! Fastnet, too!

As you leave Baltimore ( you may see the Yoker Swan, the Ferry) and then the Dolphins join the bow wave, and give you a escort to Cape Clear( same on the way back.

Cars on Cape Clear are pretty much all wrecks, people all go to the pub, and it seems then drive home, and the car park at the pub must be like a demolition derby, going by the cars that are on the island.

Pity I did not get a trip to Fastnet, but the view from the cliff looked good, but if I had to choose, I prefer the drama of the Muckle Flugga lighthouse on Unst on Shetland.
 Simon Caldwell 12 Dec 2016
In reply to marsbar:

I guess you're not old enough to remember the trouble Michael Foot got into for wearing a donkey jacket to the Cenotaph?

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