UKC

VIDEO: Alex Honnold vs Dan Osman

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 UKC News 08 Dec 2016
Alex Honnold, 4 kbDan Osman achieved fame through a widely-shared video of a speed solo ascent of Bear's Reach on Lover's Leap, near Lake Tahoe, California in 4 minutes and 25 seconds. 20 years later, Alex Honnold has paid tribute to the speed-soloing legend in this entertaining short video with the headband and hair to match...

Did he beat Dan's time?



Read more
 Mr Lopez 08 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

No dyno no tick. Back around
1
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 08 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Loved the 'rock' band on the summit - was it Slayer (goes all the way) by any chance?


Chris

 Brendan 08 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Looks like a great route!
 owensum 08 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

The rock band is actually Dave Hatchett's band Fortress. Dave is a longtime Tahoe local climber and boarder, who featured in the OG master of stone vids, good friend of Dan-o, the founder of Totally Board snowboard films, and the author of all of the latest the Tahoe Bouldering guidebooks. Anyway, if you were interested!

Great film!
 Knut R. 08 Dec 2016
In reply to owensum:

That was Hatchett's band!!?!? Amazing!

What a great way to tie the film back to the days of Osman. Nice link!
 alan moore 08 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

It looks such a good route on the videos but I don't remember being very impressed by it at the time. All a bit the same and the jump/reach move is about 4a.
I think my time was 2hrs 14 seconds.
 Rad 09 Dec 2016
In reply to alan moore:
But did you have the hair and music to do it in style?
Post edited at 05:28
 simoninger 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:
Genius strapline from the advertiser: "for those about to rock, we insure you" really captures the polarities of middle age life for old 'rockers'
 Blake 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Brilliant ... really made me smile. He looks like one of the 118 118 men
 Tom765 09 Dec 2016
When I first saw Dan Osman's video I was truly... disgusted. It looked like a rape. A big, strong, adrenaline driven guy showing off how easily he can conquer that wall, with no respect, no consideration...

And now Alex did the same. Hopefully he won't imitate Dan Osman's other achievements...
112
J.Kydd 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Tom765:

Not sure if serious....
 Tom765 09 Dec 2016
In reply to J.Kydd:

Well, I am not particularly fond of the approach to climbing that Dan Osman represented.

So yes, I'm serious, it does look like a rape to me. And I'm surprised Alex Honnold is now imitating it as he's always acted as a super considerate modest guy with no big ego and full respect to the rock he climbs on - the exact opposite of what DO always showed.

I'm sorry but that's how I feel about it...
74
 Kid Spatula 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Tom765:

Really? A rape? You're comparing somebody climbing some rock in a way you don't like equivalent to rape?

2
 C Witter 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Tom765:

I remember being at an academic conference where a panelist compared eating meat to rape, via some sort of trite pseudo-analysis. A lot of people were disgusted and the panel degenerated, as a woman spoke out, telling the panelist she was "fking disappointed with her for making such a stupid comparison, which revealed nothing but her complete ignorance of the realities rape", whilst everyone else mumbled their embarrassment. Yeh, I'm kind of strongly reminded of that...

Anyway, fun vid!
2
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Tom765:

> When I first saw Dan Osman's video I was truly... disgusted. It looked like a rape. A big, strong, adrenaline driven guy showing off how easily he can conquer that wall, with no respect, no consideration...

While I might not have put it so strongly myself, I do see where you are coming from and have some sympathy with this view; timed speed climbing, whether here or the Nose or the Eiger or anywhere else doesn't sit easily with me - it just seems a bit vulgar and unnecessary.
17
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Kid Spatula:
> Really? A rape? You're comparing somebody climbing some rock in a way you don't like equivalent to rape?

It's called a metaphor.
Post edited at 10:08
42
 ChrisBrooke 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

It's quite simply just a bit of fun. Good grief people. Try not to read to much meaning into every little thing.
1
In reply to Tom765:

You're actually doubling down on comparing this to rape? You've re-read your original response, and decided, 'yes, I'm going to compare this to rape again'?

Are there mods who can remove these posts?
9
 1poundSOCKS 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Tom765:

> So yes, I'm serious

Such a pity, it was a very funny post, or at least that's what I thought...
In reply to Robert Durran:

Metaphor, simile, comparison. It doesn't matter. Anyone over the age of like 14 comparing a rock climbing video to rape needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
2
 Bulls Crack 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

How can metaphorically comparing something to rape in its wider sense be worthy of censure?

I just look at the video and can't help thinking he'll f*** up one day.
 Tom765 09 Dec 2016
In reply to C Witter:

As a meat eater I like your analogy a lot!

You can eat meat and kill animals for that matter in a respectful way and then you could make it just for fun to see how fast you can do it.

Think of the approach to killing and eating bisons by the native American tribes and compare it with what the white men did later, cf. e.g.: http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nattrans/ntecoindian/essays/buff...
23
 GrahamD 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

The term "to Rape" has been used in multiple contexts for years ("to rape the land") and it only seems to be recently that its acceptable useage has been reduced to a single meaning.
 Oliver Houston 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Tom765:

I might have had some sympathy with your comments if either of the videos had shown obvious damaging of the rock to ensure a successful ascent, but they didn't. Just a guy, climbing fast, do you consider the 100 m in the olympics rape? or fell running?

Rape is one of the worst possible crimes a human can commit against another human. I can't believe that you can compare this to rape and think it's OK.
3
In reply to Bulls Crack:

There's plenty of language use which serves (in however small a way, be it unwitting or deliberate) to suppress, in this case, women (of course, this applies more generally to anyone who is not a straight white male, but that's a much bigger discussion!). Comparing a rock climb to rape is a perfect example of that. It trivialises something deeply traumatic which most men have no hope of ever properly understanding. Throwing 'rape' around like this makes actual discussions about consent that much more difficult.
Looking forward to pithy responses about me being over-sensitive.
7
In reply to GrahamD:

What's your point here? Are you suggesting the original post was using that meaning?
1
 EddInaBox 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> You're actually doubling down on comparing this to rape? You've re-read your original response, and decided, 'yes, I'm going to compare this to rape again'?

> Are there mods who can remove these posts?

I agree, it's a totally inappropriate comparison, it's more like sticking pitchforks in babies.
1
 Tom765 09 Dec 2016
In reply to GrahamD:

This is the use I meant here.

I apologize if it offends everyone else on this forum. I take it back then.

I still insist there is something disgusting (sorry if it's too strong again) about the way Dan Osman race-climbs that wall.
6
 Tom765 09 Dec 2016
In reply to EddInaBox:

Please, look up the 2nd entry: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/rape
1
 snoop6060 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Tom765:

The UKC forum is really becoming far more entertaining these days.

Discussion on a light hearted climbing video descends rapidly into a argument about rape metaphors. Only on UKC could this happen. Actually, the youtube comments section too.

Keep it up .

Though please don't lose the plot and assume I am in some way condoning rape. Or even agreeing with what was posted.
In reply to Tom765:

Lol no you didn't

"It looked like a rape. A big, strong, adrenaline driven guy showing off how easily he can conquer that wall, with no respect, no consideration... "

Ah, of course, the wanton destruction of the countryside...

"I apologize if it offends everyone else on this forum"
Sorry you were offended. Good apology.
2
TinyClimber 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Hold me Closer Tiny Climber
1
 ChrisJD 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Can UKC press the 'Reset' button on this thread please.
1
 MonkeyPuzzle 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

The question is, could Honnold reasonably believe that the rock was capable of giving informed consent for him to climb it? And I think the answer to that is clear.
 1poundSOCKS 09 Dec 2016
In reply to ChrisJD:

> Can UKC press the 'Reset' button on this thread please.

Some us are bored at work, and this thread is the best entertainment I've managed to find.
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Metaphor, simile, comparison. It doesn't matter. Anyone over the age of like 14 comparing a rock climbing video to rape needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

Remind me never to use that "murder of the impossible" metaphor on here again. Fantastically offensive. I mean murder is a terrible crime, right up there with rape probably.
8
In reply to Tom765:

I find your comments really odd and can't see why climbing fast is a problem. Does this mean we should all climb slowly and deliberately for an ascent to be of value?
2
 1poundSOCKS 09 Dec 2016
In reply to jonathan shepherd:

> I find your comments really odd and can't see why climbing fast is a problem. Does this mean we should all climb slowly and deliberately for an ascent to be of value?

Yes, when does rock climbing become rape exactly? How big and strong do you have to be, how fast do you have to climb, and is it only rape if you dress up and film it?
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to jonathan shepherd:

> I find your comments really odd and can't see why climbing fast is a problem. Does this mean we should all climb slowly and deliberately for an ascent to be of value?

I think it means that climbing fast for its own sake (ie probably with a stopwatch) might not be seen as a virtue.
6
 Valkyrie1968 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Looking forward to pithy responses about me being over-sensitive.

Not over-sensitive, but wrong in your understanding of the English language. This isn't to defend Tom's argument, which I think is idiotic, nor is it - before anyone tries to take the weaselly, not-reading-the-argument-and-implying-I'm-condoning-rape approach - in any way related to the vile crime being discussed. This is about language.

"rape" was used for centuries to refer to the act of taking something by force, often in a destructive or violent manner. To quote from the Oxford English Dictionary's definitions of the verb "to rape":

1a. To take or seize (something) by force
1b. To pull or tear down
1c. To plunder, despoil (a place); to rob (a person).

2a. To carry off (a person) by force; esp. to abduct a woman, usually for the purpose of sexual violation.
2b. To transport with delight, to enrapture.

3. To violate (a person) sexually; to commit rape against (a person); esp. (of a man) to force (a woman) to have sexual intercourse against her will.

My point here being that the sexual-crime aspect is not the only definition, and assuming as such in the context of discussing a bloke climbing a bit of rock is a little odd, and ignores the actual meaning of the word, not just what it's come to mean in recent decades (see also Alexander Pope's mock-epic poem The Rape of the Lock (1717) which, while relating to a woman's chastity, centres on the violation of a woman's hair (an admirer taking a lock of hair without asking) and the well-established phrase Graham mentions above, "rape of the land", to throw out a couple of things that immediately spring to mind).

So yes, "rape" is a strong wording, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with it; we can disagree with the point being made (that Honnold's ascent constitutes a violation of climbing ethics and shows a lack of respect), and the strength of feeling (as has been noted, what Honnold is doing is pretty harmless - neither violent nor destructive), but it is absolutely not a word that is inextricably tied to sexual violence, and anyone raising the issue is, quite simply, wrong.
5
 1poundSOCKS 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I think it means that climbing fast for its own sake (ie probably with a stopwatch) might not be seen as a virtue.

Does anyone see rock climbing in any form as a virtue?
In reply to Robert Durran:

Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you just not understand how certain language can be systematically subversive to particular groups of people? If you struggle with this, I would really strongly advise reading a book called 'Everyday Sexism'. It's pretty easy to read, but tackles this topic in a way which would be enlightening to most people.
7
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Are you being deliberately obtuse.

No. I am just defending the use of a pretty standard metaphor. I suspect that many of those upset by it here would have no problem with it in other contexts ("rape of the environment" or "rape of a country") but just don't like it being used about an aspect of climbing which they don't happen to have a problem with.
4
 Andy Say 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

My only problem with it is that it seems far less like a 'tribute' to Dan Osman and more like an 'advert'.
2
In reply to Valkyrie1968:

Thanks for the considered post in a shambles of a thread. Tom surely knows how most people are going to interpret his use of 'rape' though. His use of 'a rape' strongly suggests this, as does his lack of clarification/excuse until enough people had piled in to point out how unacceptable his post was.

Yes, the word has multiple meanings in the OED, but as you said yourself, there is one thing "it's come to mean in recent decades". There's no way that's not what he meant, so we shouldn't be trying to defend his use.
7
In reply to Robert Durran:

Context is everything. It is unacceptable to compare a climb to rape.
12
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:
> Context is everything. It is unacceptable to compare a climb to rape.

I disagree. Even if you don't mind speed climbing, what about the commercial circus on Everest? What about bolting Cerro Torre into submission? Non-climbing stuff? Why should you be the holier than thou arbiter of when a metaphor is acceptable?
Post edited at 11:07
1
 MonkeyPuzzle 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Can someone find a non-climber to read this whole thread and then give a summary of what they think they've witnessed?
In reply to Robert Durran:

I'm not talking about climbing ethics. I'm talking about comparing a climb to the act of rape. It's about the use of language which trivialises an act which most men badly misunderstand. Honestly, read 'Everyday Sexism'. It's one of the most important books of our time. Or, y'know, just pretend that, as a man, an understanding of modern feminism is unimportant to you?
10
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

I've done this on another forum.

1. People think it's really weird that anyone would be angry about how this guy got to the top quickly.
2. The rape comparison is unacceptable.
3
ylem 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:
Think, Alex should make it in 4:26 or 4:25 just because Dan can not accept the change.
 Simon Caldwell 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Are you being deliberately obtuse or do you just not understand how certain language can be systematically subversive to particular groups of people? If you struggle with this, I would really strongly advise reading a book called 'Everyday Sexism'. It's pretty easy to read, but tackles this topic in a way which would be enlightening to most people.

This is the sort of over-sensitive thinking that led to Brexit and Trump.

Discuss.
 MonkeyPuzzle 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

^^^^ Good effort, but you can't outdo the original post.
 Simon Caldwell 09 Dec 2016
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

spoilsport
 GarethSL 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Context is everything. It is unacceptable to compare a climb to rape.

Quite, I fail to see the connection between a member of the cabbage family and a rock. But ho hum.
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Context is everything. It is unacceptable to compare a climb to rape.

Ok. Do you consider it ever acceptable to use the rape metaphor?
1
In reply to Robert Durran:

But does it really matter, fast, slow or somewhere in between, it's all fun surely.
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to jonathan shepherd:
> But does it really matter, fast, slow or somewhere in between, it's all fun surely.

If there's one thing I dislike more than speed climbing, it's climbing for mere fun.
Post edited at 12:08
1
In reply to Robert Durran:

Good question. Probably not. We use metaphors to try and describe something by making a comparison. I don't think anyone who hasn't been raped can possibly be in a position to compare anything to the trauma of being raped (maybe if they have worked closely with rape victims but then I doubt they would be so trite) - to do so is insensitive to anyone who has had to suffer that crime. I doubt anyone who has been raped would ever use 'rape' as a metaphor, but I suppose they would have more right to 'own' that sentiment.

In short, no. I think most people haven't given enough thought to the language they use and the effect (big, small, unconscious, deliberate) it has on others. I doubt many people on this forum (or elsewhere) have given much thought as to why it's not ok to use 'rape' as a metaphor like above. Hopefully the discussion in this thread is of interest.
3
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> I doubt many people on this forum (or elsewhere) have given much thought as to why it's not ok to use 'rape' as a metaphor like above. Hopefully the discussion in this thread is of interest.

It is certainly of interest and, given how common the metaphor is, it is not something to which I had really given thought and I'm still some way from being from convinced it is (or at least should be) unacceptable. On reading Tom's first post, my initial reaction was that I had some sympathy with the sentiment and that the language was incidental.
1
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

What a load of rubbish. I've never been a tree, does that render me unable to compare things to trees?
4
In reply to Robert Durran:

Obviously it's not just fun but it surely has to be part of it, if you're not enjoying it then why do it at all?
In reply to th0ma5_ander50n:

Thanks for your considered and polite response. I'm sorry to hear you've never been a tree. I trust you've had the same level of counselling and support that might be required by a rape victim.

Again, my point is that the use of 'rape' that started this whole discussion is one which trivialises a topic which is badly misunderstood generally by straight men who don't have any idea of the level of systemic sexism and harassment a typical woman will suffer. The same cannot be said to apply to trees, what with them not being sentient... You can happily throw 'rape' around as a metaphor because you are basically not at risk. The chances of you ever suffering it are vanishingly small. The same, sadly, is not true for women. And the trivialisation of the subject means that when it does happen, we end up with people saying 'she asked for it' or misunderstanding consent.
6
 Andy Hardy 09 Dec 2016
In reply to all:

Is there a record for the fastest escalating thread ever?, and did we break it?
1
 TobyA 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

Language usage and meanings change over time, and rightly feminism has impacted on our language. In Finnish there is an expression for drudgery: "that isn't white man's work". No one would say that in the UK these days, although I bet there have been similar expressions in the past.

Using rape as a metaphor seems distasteful to many because of how the crime has been minimised in the past - did you hear that MP's speech yesterday?
 MonkeyPuzzle 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

Steve, I appreciate your sentiment, but we don't need to hyper-sensitize (my word) words like 'rape' any more than we want to trivialise them. I've got a sandwich downstairs that I'm absolutely going to murder and no one's batting an eyelid. Rape can be used in the context it was in this thread, but the point is that it was a whoopingly absurd overstatement.
 GarethSL 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Andy Hardy:

I don't know, but I'm giving Tom765 a solid 7/10... He loses a couple for posting more than once.
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

The difference is that there's not a large section of society downplaying the severity of murder. There absolutely is with rape (see the response to Ched Evans earlier this year, or the reporting and sentencing for Brock Turner).
7
 French Erick 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I disagree. Even if you don't mind speed climbing, what about the commercial circus on Everest? What about bolting Cerro Torre into submission? Non-climbing stuff? Why should you be the holier than thou arbiter of when a metaphor is acceptable?

Hi Robert,
I think the metaphor is acceptable but barely satisfactory (i.e. IMO is a bad metaphor which is to say the degree of difference is too much at odd. I'll not lose sleep over it though)

I've always liked seeing people do tricks on videos, cirque du soleil, speed solos... mailnly because it doesn't interest me to mimic it all. Like seeing life from another point of view.

I think dan's vidoe is a classic and i re watch it regularly. I now will always watch them both as I like the new one too. Everything Americans do on videos looks like adverts to me...but what do I know, I am just a French dude

There's talk of a Wadi visit by pals. I may want to pick your brain up on that.
 ebdon 09 Dec 2016
In reply to GarethSL:

This thread has gone all types of wrong...
As a right-on lefty liberal kinda guy do i need to hand myself in to the nearest police station for dicking about on climbs that i find easy?

Won't someone think of the children?!?!
 MonkeyPuzzle 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

I don't think there's equivalence between the two cases you've mentioned, Steve. One is an absolute borderline, legal minefield based on reasonable presumption of ability to consent and the other one is a guy who got caught, with multiple witnesses, violently sexually assaulting a drunk girl behind some bins. One showed the complexities of technical consent-based prosecutions and the other was a travesty of a sentence because the guy was a good swimmer. Neither was diminished by the use of the word 'rape' above, even though it did make the world a little bit stupider.
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Sorry, didn't mean to imply equivalence - my comment on Ched was on the response of so many people to that case. The public/media response to both was often awful in different ways. Men casually throwing around 'rape' as a metaphor is symptomatic of a lot of that public/media response, to my mind at least.
Post edited at 14:03
2
 ebdon 09 Dec 2016
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

when the cockroach people write their history books about the fall of humanity and ensuing apocalypse they will record this thread as why mankind was doomed to extinction.
 ebdon 09 Dec 2016
In reply to ebdon:
I should probably add by no means do i wish to trivialize rape or indeed questioning the use of of the word as a metaphore but applying it to a video of somone climbing a VS in fancy dress, what the hell? Do yourself a favour dont go the chrismas crack area at stannage on the 25th I fear you may explode through righteous indignation.
 GrahamD 09 Dec 2016
In reply to ebdon:

"Rape" is not always a metaphor. It is a word that has several different legitimate meanings.
 Michael Hood 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering: I think your "complaint" about the usage of rape is valid in that looking at the original post, "rape" does seem to be used in its "sexual violence without consent" meaning. However if it had been used in its "rape of the countryside" meaning (or been totally ambiguous **), then I don't think your "complaint" would be valid.

However in that case I think it would be valid to comment that using "rape" as a metaphor (even in its "of the countryside") meaning should be avoided since it can be so easily misinterpreted and in its "sexual violence" context it should not be used as a metaphor.

** - the original post used "rape" as a noun, it would have been more ambiguous as a verb.

Having said all that, I did to some extent agree with the post, I felt a little uncomfortable with the video, probably because Dan Osman died soloing and the Alex Honnold video felt more like a spoof than a tribute.
 simes303 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

This is pathetic.

Also, I think it's excellent that Honnold did this.
Si.
 simes303 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

Dan Osman did not die soloing.
He jumped off (El Capitan? Not sure) and his rope snapped.

Si.
 ebdon 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

Osman did not die soloing. Will people stop with this madness?
 Wry Gob 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

You are basically saying that any use of any of the many non-sexual definition's of rape in the Oxford English Dictionary is unacceptable. That's literary fascism. You're sustained and narrow-minded repost to the original poster is completely missing the point. You're quite right - context is everything. The context of this video is in a commercial / advertisement for an insurance product, by a climber who seemingly spends more time soloing on camera than off it, and on a climb that I suspect may be popularised as a result. If you can't see the relevance of the original poster's rape metaphor then you should perhaps invest in some disambiguation lenses...
11
 Michael Hood 09 Dec 2016
In reply to simes303: Quite right, I was mixing his death up with (I think) Derek Hersey in Black Canyon.

Wasn't El Cap but it was somewhere in Yosemite.

In reply to Wry Gob:

> You are basically saying that any use of any of the many non-sexual definition's of rape in the Oxford English Dictionary is unacceptable.

No I'm not. Re-read my posts. I'm saying that using rape in the sexual assault sense as a metaphor is unacceptable. I've at no point said that the other definitions aren't legitimate. Given that its use these days is almost exclusively in the context of sexual assault, I do think people should be sensitive about its other uses.

In this thread: lots of people getting defensive about their right to use 'rape' as a metaphor. What would be missing from your life if you didn't use 'rape' as a metaphor? Or is 4th wave feminism threatening to you?
4
 snoop6060 09 Dec 2016
In reply to:

Is it time for this yet?

youtube.com/watch?v=OE-IQ0EXyvg&

Time Trumpet, lighten the mood a bit.
 Rob Exile Ward 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

'Men casually throwing around 'rape' as a metaphor is symptomatic of a lot of that public/media response, to my mind at least.'

So there is one word in the entire English language that cannot be used as a metaphor or simile because it's main use is a particularly hideous crime? 'Murder', 'torture', 'cancer' are all OK, but rape must be excluded?

I'm sorry, but I think this is one of the few occasions when I can genuinely sympathise with the view that it's 'Political correctness gone mad! Gone mad, I tell you!
3
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:
> Looking at the original post, "rape" does seem to be used in its "sexual violence without consent" meaning. However if it had been used in its "rape of the countryside" meaning, then I don't think your "complaint" would be valid.

But I don't think the two meanings are separable. I would have said that the "sexual violence without consent" usage is a subset of the "rape of the countryside" meaning; a general meaning might be more or less synonymous with "defile" and "sexual violence without consent" is just one type of defilement. In which case it could be argued that the problem is actually only in the minds of those who can't see beyond the narrow sexual violence meaning.
Post edited at 14:59
1
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> So there is one word in the entire English language that cannot be used as a metaphor or simile because it's main use is a particularly hideous crime? 'Murder', 'torture', 'cancer' are all OK, but rape must be excluded?

But I think the argument is that they are not equivalent because anyone might get murdered, but heterosexual men are extremely unlikely to get raped.
 Michael Hood 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran: re "the problem is actually only in the minds of those who can't see beyond the narrow sexual violence meaning. " - I suspect it's more that this is by far the most common usage of rape nowadays.

The end result is the same though - a dumbing down of the language and in the end - 1984.
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to TobyA:

> Using rape as a metaphor seems distasteful to many because of how the crime has been minimised in the past - did you hear that MP's speech yesterday?

Yes, and I also saw heart-rending reports on the wars in Syria and Yemen. Should we, as people lucky enough to live in a peaceful part of the world, be avoiding war metaphors too? "War on want" etc?
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Political correctness gone mad! - The battle cry of the privileged

See my point above about the fact that one section of society is disproportionately affected by rape, and read Everyday Sexism.
6
In reply to Robert Durran:

> "sexual violence without consent" is just one type of defilement.
Read that back...

>In which case it could be argued that the problem is actually only in the minds of those who can't see beyond the narrow sexual violence meaning.

But that's exactly how it was intended in the original post!

2
In reply to Michael Hood:
Why is it important to you to be able to use 'rape' as a metaphor? Is it empowering? I mean, do you often find it's the one comparison that is sufficient to describe something?
Post edited at 15:07
4
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:
> Read that back...

I have. And?

Post edited at 15:10
 MonkeyPuzzle 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Men casually throwing around 'rape' as a metaphor is symptomatic of a lot of that public/media response, to my mind at least.

Tom765 wasn't casually throwing it around though. He actually meant it. That's why it was so f*cking ridiculous.
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to ebdon:

> when the cockroach people write their history books about the fall of humanity and ensuing apocalypse they will record this thread as why mankind was doomed to extinction.

No, but anyone watching any Dan Osman or Alex Honnold video might.......
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I think Tom said he meant it that way.

Only after doubling down on the original. And eventually seeing that as an 'out' when someone else suggested it on his behalf.
 Wry Gob 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

"I'm saying that using rape in the sexual assault sense as a metaphor is unacceptable."

Eh? That's weird, you seem to be projecting what's in your own head into that of the original poster! How on earth do you know he was using the word rape "in the sexual assault sense"? Are you David Blaine in disguise? Do you really think people's use of language should be censored? There's a deep irony here - surely if you were a true feminist (as you clearly believe you are) then language censorship and restricting peoples' freedom of expression goes completely against the very cause you're so keen to advance?
4
 Oliver Houston 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

While I get the other uses of the verb "to rape", in this context, it was still wrong:

Rape of the Land etc. implies some amount of destruction, really probably a lot of destruction, in the video the climb was not obviously damaged, and arguably damaged a lot less on this ascent than by two ordinary climbers with a trad rack (is it trad? I don't care).

To take something without consent? The rock can't consent to anything, at least not in a way we can understand. Therefore all climbing would be rape.

I hope that it was a troll, and if so, then well played. But I'm not convinced.

Showing a modicum of respect to rape victims does not = 1984.
2
In reply to Wry Gob:

Come on now. If he'd meant it in any other way he would have clarified ASAP when people called him out on it. The use of the noun 'a rape' as noted by others above is indicative of what was meant. As noted by others, that is what the word has become synonymous with in this day and age.

And yes, some change in language is co-extensive with feminism. e.g. there are words like 'slut' which have entirely negative female-centric connotations. For the umpteenth time, I'm not suggesting we don't allow people to say 'rape'. I'm saying that using it as a metaphor for something which is so far removed from sexual assault is indicative of the ways in which language systematically reinforces the oppression of women.

Finally, as a general rule, if your counter-argument is based solely on freedom of speech then your position clearly isn't a defensible one.
3
 planetmarshall 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> ...rape.

Just picked up this thread and skipped to the end. Didn't really see it going that way given the initial post, but that's UKC for you.
In reply to planetmarshall:

I'll summarise. Some men are desperate to use 'rape' to describe things which are a very long way from being rape. Some of us think it's inappropriate to do so. Feel free to weigh in on whatever side you want.
10
 planetmarshall 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Feel free to weigh in on whatever side you want.

Tempting, but not this time. All I'll say is that it could be educational to look up the etymology of the word ravishing.

 ebdon 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

awww common... the vids just a bit of fun with only minor corporate overtones but that's yanks for you - now this makes me physically sick and is a worthy video for this thread: http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/67056/bear_grylls_-_master_of_movement
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:
> I'll summarise. Some men are desperate to use 'rape' to describe things which are a very long way from being rape. Some of us think it's inappropriate to do so. Feel free to weigh in on whatever side you want.

You forgot the important point that the word "rape" need not necessarily have anything to do with sexual violence (though I know you will argue that it nowadays tends to carry that connotation in most people's minds).
Post edited at 16:03
 johnjohn 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:
> Is there a record for the fastest escalating thread ever?

It escalated quickly. As indeed did Honnold and Osman.
Post edited at 16:18
In reply to Robert Durran:

Do we have to do this again? That's how it was being used. That's how pretty much everyone would interpret it as being used unless very clearly specified as being 'rape of the land'. And in any case, that's how people in this thread are looking to defend its use as a metaphor.
1
In reply to UKC News:

Guys, I'm heading offline for the day now. I hope some of you reconsider your desire to compare things to rape. Climb safe.
1
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Oliver Houston:

> Rape of the Land etc. implies some amount of destruction, really probably a lot of destruction, in the video the climb was not obviously damaged, and arguably damaged a lot less on this ascent than by two ordinary climbers with a trad rack.

The destruction need not be physical. Defilement is a better word and that need not be physical either - I think it rather a quite nuanced thing about our approach to and portrayal of climbing.
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> That's how it was being used.

No, that's how you've decided you want to see it as being used.

> And in any case, that's how people in this thread are looking to defend its use as a metaphor.

No, I really don't think they are - I would have thought that was quite obvious.

The only question should be whether, as you say, the "sexual violence" meaning has become so prevalent that people struggle to see beyond it and that we should therefore avoid the more general meaning either metaphorically (or indeed literally). And I do concede that this might be the case.



1
 Andy Say 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> read Everyday Sexism.

You aren't, by any chance the publisher are you?
 ChrisJD 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Guys, I'm heading offline for the day now.

I'm sure you are, maintaining such a heightened state of sanctimony must be dreadfully tiring.


6
 Hephaestus 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Quite right, I was mixing his death up with (I think) Derek Hersey in Black Canyon.

Wrong again, mate... raping the historical record with your fascist ignorance
3
 Andy Say 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> I'll summarise. Some men are desperate to use 'rape' to describe things which are a very long way from being rape. Some of us think it's inappropriate to do so. Feel free to weigh in on whatever side you want.

And I'll riposte:

Nobody is actually 'desperate to use the word 'rape' to describe things which are along way from being rape'. But a lot of people are quite keen on using language in a figurative way rather than using it purely literally all the time.

You are free to feel that it is inappropriate FOR YOU. You are NOT free to tell me that I may not describe the Compressor Route as the rape of a beautiful mountain.

Now. About black humour.........
2
 planetmarshall 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Hitler hitler hitler hitler hitler.
 FactorXXX 09 Dec 2016
In reply to planetmarshall:
Hitler hitler hitler hitler hitler.

Gaddafi more like: -

http://deltanewsroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/gaddafi.jpg
http://eveningsends.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/Honnold.jpg
Post edited at 17:10
 Oliver Houston 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

When has anyone ever used the term "rape of the land" to imply non-physical destruction?
Metaphorical destruction? Emotional destruction?

The OP (of the rape comment) made it quite clear what he meant: "When I first saw Dan Osman's video I was truly... disgusted. It looked like a rape. A big, strong, adrenaline driven guy showing off how easily he can conquer that wall, with no respect, no consideration... "

At least to me that clearly implies sexual rape, which I don't think is a fair comparison.

Of course you and him are entitled to your nuances, but I doubt Dan Osman, or Alex Honnold did the kind of lasting damage to the route that rape (any of the OED's definitions of rape) can do to a person/landscape.
3
 Andy Say 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Oliver Houston:

> When has anyone ever used the term "rape of the land" to imply non-physical destruction?

As far as I'm aware Scotland is still there after the Clearances* - a period easily described as the rape of a culture and country.

*Well: last time I looked.
1
 Robert Durran 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Oliver Houston:

> When has anyone ever used the term "rape of the land" to imply non-physical destruction?

Probably never. Who said they had? But you could have, say, cultural, linguistic or political rape which was not physically destructive.



 GarethSL 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> I'll summarise. Some men are desperate to use 'rape' to describe things which are a very long way from being rape. Some of us think it's inappropriate to do so. Feel free to weigh in on whatever side you want.

What a spastic thing to say
7
 lezec 09 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesMotherBouldering:

Being from The Eye of the Universe outside the written off the Little Down Syndrosanitazed Britain, I tell you
SteveLikesMotherBouldering that you has raped my neteveningsends tonight with your reapest eNWOeyou eNGOyoust PoliceCorrectional BigBrother moth and tongue bondage.

My little boy SteveLikesMotherBouldering, my brest advice to you, after being traumatized by your pestpost is to PDfile your comments into a leaveleft and hand it out to small kids of what ever himher seeks to tuck their shirt in whose ever skirt to kidd them into their near bright everlusting happy future.

Black to 1984: to shake some one s hand before himher monkies a written approval will become a reapest crime against humanity and will be persecuted and punchhim in depth by eternal law.

I cant believe it that anybody argues or even apologize to his pestposts in this thread.

Best for Europea
and my best wittchest regards to Brits in Bits
God save Us before they slave Us

send from em orgie ncy unit udergoing PSTD recovery treatment, hoping I wil shaved out of a dark abyss by tommorrows Dawn of whitie clear Sun
2
 JJL 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Golly.

Why is it that men like to discuss rape so much?

And not a woman to be seen in the thread...
 JLS 09 Dec 2016
In reply to JJL:

Yikes! This thread seems to have gone a little off topic...

pasbury 09 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Please can we never ever use the term rape in reference to anything to do with climbing ever again.
6
pasbury 09 Dec 2016
In reply to Tom765:

I think you have a problem. They don't and they are not rapists. Your comment is the single most disgusting thing I've read on this forum in 14 years as a member.
8
 jondo 10 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Metaphor, simile, comparison. It doesn't matter. Anyone over the age of like 14 comparing a rock climbing video to rape needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

the obsession with the word 'rape' here is beside the point.
i think the fact that it turned out to be an ad for some insurance company was disappointing.
i felt a bit manipulated, thought Honnold actually did it for fun..
no, just for a few green ones.
 mrchewy 10 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

What about the Compressor Route down in Patagonia? Did he not totally rape the rock when he first put that climb up?

I can't say I thought the choice of words and the analogy in this post was appropriate but you're contradicting yourself here -

> Context is everything. It is unacceptable to compare a climb to rape.

Either the second sentence is correct or the first one, if you want to be so black and white about things.



 john arran 10 Dec 2016
In reply to jondo:

> i felt a bit manipulated, thought Honnold actually did it for fun..
> no, just for a few green ones.

I think that may be being unfair. I would be amazed if Alex hadn't had it in his mind for some time, simply for the fun and challenge of it. I've occasionally been paid for climbing work that's almost exactly the same as I'd be doing anyway and it's never felt like selling out in any way. It's when the nature of the climbing gets changed due to commercial interests (e.g. bolts on Cerro Torre), that's when we should get concerned, not when someone is doing something they very likely would be interested in doing anyway.
 Dauphin 10 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

Its a metaphor. Not a very good one, but still he tried

More men than women are victims of sexual assault - at least in the U.S. (more than double). Prison rape and gay rape typically. So what does your 'men have no hope of understanding' virtue signalling semiotic gibberish white knight perspective have to say about that?

D
1
 Pedro50 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Quite right, I was mixing his death up with (I think) Derek Hersey in Black Canyon.

Wrong again, Derek was on the Steck-Salathe route on Sentinel Rock Yosemite

 TobyA 10 Dec 2016

In reply to Dauphin

> More men than women are victims of sexual assault - at least in the U.S. (more than double). Prison rape and gay rape typically.

1. Most of us aren't in the US. 2. The US has only recently changed its definition, the UK hasn't as far as I'm aware - isn't sexual assault a different crime to rape still? 3) I don't think jurisdictions in the US have changed their laws, this is just how well regarded organisations count offences in victim surveys.

I hope we can avoid turning the phrase "virtue signalling" into the new version if "PC gone mad".

BTW, what figures have you seen? More than double? I read 2014 stories quoting the CDC (iirc) saying just under half.
Post edited at 09:04
2
 Greasy Prusiks 10 Dec 2016
In reply to TobyA and others :

I can't believe you can open a thread about a fun climbing video and this is the first comment you see. Pretty poor state for a climbing forum to be in IMO.

I've no idea what aspect of sexual assault you lot are bickering about but could you please take it to either the off belay forum or even better the you tube comments section?
1
 douwe 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Exactly.
This thread totally derailed and shows the sad state of UKC forums. Pathetic.

And yes; fun video. Remember seeing the original Dan Osman video, mind blowing!
 Robert Durran 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

> I can't believe you can open a thread about a fun climbing video and this is the first comment you see. Pretty poor state for a climbing forum to be in IMO.

It's a fascinating thread with some intelligent and robust debate. UKC at it's best in my opinion. This would be a much poorer and bland place if threads were not allowed to go off in weird and wonderful directions. I just find it absurd that Tom appears to have been banned from posting because of his arguably misplaced metaphor.

4
 GarethSL 10 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

I want to apologise for that last one, was in very poor taste. Sorry.



Note to self do not combine alcohol and ukc.
1
 henwardian 10 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Wow, this thread degenerated spectacularly.
I really liked this video, it made me laugh, it was a nice breath of fresh air treading a nice line between taking the mick out the old Masters of Stone version and paying tribute to a impressive feat.
It was interesting that Honnold is only quite marginally quicker than Osman.

And for the killjoys and rape obsessed folk, take a step back, notice the dress up, hard rock music and band playing on top of the cliff - this is a fun minute long aside, NOT the next frontier in cutting edge climbing!
 Dauphin 10 Dec 2016
In reply to TobyA:

Re virtue signalling. That's exactly what we see here.

Figures are from the Justice Department. CDC figures say it's about equal if you bother to read between the lines - men forced or coerced to penetrate. As far as I remember they ignore prison rapes for some reason.

D

 TobyA 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

> Re virtue signalling. That's exactly what we see here.

Maybe consider that some men will have a seen the horrible mess that being a victim of rape can make to the live of women they know, hence feel it is a pretty crap metaphor to use in discussion like this. I wouldn't call that virtue signalling anymore than I would consider what you are saying is virtue signalling to the "men's rights" lobby.

Lots of people seem to object to this discussion spinning out from the original comment made, so I won't start putting links up, but from what I can understand from reading around on the subject I think your first post was confusing the issue rather, which makes the accusation of others 'virtue signalling' unfair.
 FactorXXX 10 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

This is a right car crash of a thread!
 Robert Durran 10 Dec 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

> This is a right car crash of a thread!

That is the most disgusting metaphor I have ever seen on UKC. Havn't you thought of the feelings of all those who might read it and have been horribly injured in car crashes through no fault of their own? Shame on you.

We need a war on posts such as this.
1
 Jim Hamilton 10 Dec 2016
In reply to henwardian:

> It was interesting that Honnold is only quite marginally quicker than Osman.

I was surprised he was quicker at all, as I get the impression that Osman was moving over the rock faster.
 Dauphin 10 Dec 2016
In reply to TobyA:
But that's not what he wrote. Its clear that he wrote that all language that has negative connatations as far as he understands feminist discourse(s) according to the gospel of Laura Bates is concerned, are off limits to be used in any other context. I disagreed and offer some context in the form of actual statistics that men being more likely or equally likely to be raped by other men or women might know something about that experience.

The video itself was mildly entertaining, until we find its an ad for an insurance company. I think ukc should of told us it was an ad as I would not of bothered. Trigger warning that your favourite rock star is actually corporate shill.

D
Post edited at 13:00
4
 FactorXXX 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

That is the most disgusting metaphor I have ever seen on UKC. Havn't you thought of the feelings of all those who might read it and have been horribly injured in car crashes through no fault of their own? Shame on you.

Quite and I wonder what other metaphors should/could be banned from general usage so as to appease a handful of 'Special Snowflakes'.
1
 FactorXXX 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

I was surprised he was quicker at all, as I get the impression that Osman was moving over the rock faster.

Honnold is a more efficient climber in that he uses good technique as opposed to jumping all the time.
1
 FactorXXX 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

The video itself was mildly entertaining, until we find its an ad for an insurance company. I think ukc should of told us it was an ad as I would not of bothered. Trigger warning that your favourite rock star is actually corporate shill.

I thought the video was very good, especially when you find out that the backing music is actually being played 'live' at the top of the route.
As for the advertising/corporate shill bit - so what? It was a couple of seconds at the end of the video and is less obtrusive than some videos with sponsors logo's strategically positioned on clothing, harnesses, etc. He's a professional climber that makes his living through climbing and appears to do so, in an unassuming and pleasant manner.
What do you expect him to do? Go on the dole and doss in caves so that he's a 'real' climber?

 Dauphin 10 Dec 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:


Go on the dole and doss in caves so that he's a 'real' climber?

All discourse boils down to virtue signalling these days. I'm offended. End of discussion.



D
 WildCamper 10 Dec 2016
Cool vid, great soundtrack too!

 Greasy Prusiks 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

This isn't a weird or wonderful direction it's an argument about rape.

As for whether it's intelligent debate or not, I haven't read the thread but I didn't have to scroll very far up it to find someone calling another user a "spastic" .

You've got every right to post about whatever you want but please do it in one of the non climbing forums so we don't all have to hear it.

I hope this doesn't come across as confrontational but it's reached the point where I felt I had to say something.

Happy Climbing,
Greasey
1
 pencilled in 10 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News: I thought it was really good fun and wouldn't be surprised if Alex had suggested it in the first place.
I also don't mind elite climbers doing what they love in order to fund a few more days away getting better.

 FactorXXX 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

This isn't a weird or wonderful direction it's an argument about rape.

No it isn't, it's a discussion about the suitability of using the word 'rape' as a metaphor.


As for whether it's intelligent debate or not, I haven't read the thread but I didn't have to scroll very far up it to find someone calling another user a "spastic".

Out of 150 or so posts, you select one to criticise it. Additionally, if you read the thread further, you would have noticed that the poster of that comment apologised for it.


You've got every right to post about whatever you want but please do it in one of the non climbing forums so we don't all have to hear it.

Threads on UKC invariably go off on a tangent and some of the best threads ever have started off in such a fashion. I personally wouldn't be in favour of trying to curtail that.
It's also interesting, that as far as I can tell, that you personally haven't actually commented on the video itself. If so, your only contributions to the thread, have essentially been non-climbing related...

1
 jondo 10 Dec 2016
In reply to john arran:
> I think that may be being unfair. I would be amazed if Alex hadn't had it in his mind for some time, simply for the fun and challenge of it. I've occasionally been paid for climbing work that's almost exactly the same as I'd be doing anyway and it's never felt like selling out in any way. It's when the nature of the climbing gets changed due to commercial interests (e.g. bolts on Cerro Torre), that's when we should get concerned, not when someone is doing something they very likely would be interested in doing anyway.

did he have it on his mind to NOT beat dan osman's time on something that is like walking up stairs to him. (he is an 8c climber..)
did he actually watch that clip 100+ times ?
because its an ad it just seems very unreliable to me thats all.
Post edited at 18:15
1
 Michael Hood 10 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Why is it important to you to be able to use 'rape' as a metaphor? Is it empowering? I mean, do you often find it's the one comparison that is sufficient to describe something?

Where do I say that it was important - read my post properly please. Personally I can't imagine myself using it.
 Michael Hood 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Hephaestus:
> Wrong again, mate... raping the historical record with your fascist ignorance

Help me out here please; I'm love-30 down already

I have this vague memory that someone well known died soloing after getting caught in an unexpected rain shower/storm in a Colorado Canyon.
Dan Osman - wrong
Derek Hersey - wrong
Black Canyon - I think this might be wrong as well - Rainbow Wall maybe.
Post edited at 18:30
 Michael Hood 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Oliver Houston: > Showing a modicum of respect to rape victims does not = 1984.

Not sure where you think I made this kind of equality; the 1984 comment was not directly connected to the use of rape, but pointing out that the extreme end result of dumbing down the rich use of language is a 1984 situation (i.e. where the number of ideas that can be expressed is controlled by those who control the language).

Confining the word rape to just one meaning is such a dumbing down. It may be that this is justifiable in this case and it may happen anyway over many years but is such simplification what we want for language.

This of course is yet another tangent away from the OP.

 Greasy Prusiks 10 Dec 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

Fair enough, I've said what I think make of it what you will.

I'm pretty sure I posted a comment about the video, I certainly tried to anyway (Internet connection a little temperamental at the moment) .

I can see that some people get something out of these debates but I just wanted to make the case for keeping them separate from the climbing parts of the forum.
1
 Michael Hood 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks: Your "keeping them separate" is about 2 light years too late.

Bad metaphor there (if that's what it is) - light years being a unit of distance rather than time.

 FactorXXX 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Fair enough, I've said what I think make of it what you will.

What? That you think the discussion was about actual rape and not the use of rape as a metaphor?


I'm pretty sure I posted a comment about the video, I certainly tried to anyway (Internet connection a little temperamental at the moment).

Sorry Sir, the dog ate my homework...


I can see that some people get something out of these debates but I just wanted to make the case for keeping them separate from the climbing parts of the forum.

How would that work?
As a consequence of a thread, someone sees a post that sparks an interest in a non-related matter and the easiest thing to do, is to ask that poster for clarification/information, etc. Are you suggesting that they should start a new thread?
3
 Bulls Crack 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

Hersey in Yosemite
 Pedro50 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> Hersey in Yosemite

That was clarified up thread.
 henwardian 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Jim Hamilton:

> I was surprised he was quicker at all, as I get the impression that Osman was moving over the rock faster.

I thought exactly the same thing when I was watching it. I guess either Honnold was faster on a few of the bits that were not filmed or maybe the video of Honnold was a artificially slowed down?... I can't think why that would be done though if the purpose is to show how fast he is going...
[shrug]
 Michael Hood 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Pedro50: Nope Hersey wasn't the one - my vague memory is of the speculation being that he was caught by rain and had to make the choice between carrying on on wet rock or waiting for the rock to dry but then being too cold to climb effectively.

It was clarified up thread that Hersey died soloing in Yosemite.

 Robert Durran 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

> I have this vague memory that someone well known died soloing after getting caught in an unexpected rain shower/storm in a Colorado Canyon.

I had that vague memory about The Diamond on Long's Peak and, it seems mistakenly, thought it was Hersey. Someone else?
 Robert Durran 10 Dec 2016
In reply to FactorXXX:

> Threads on UKC invariably go off on a tangent and some of the best threads ever have started off in such a fashion.

Absolutely, and this would be a much poorer and very bland place if they were not allowed to do so. I happen to have found the discussion about the rape metaphor interesting and illuminating. Another time I might not and that is fine. Nobody has to follow the digression and, as here, the original discussion can still go on in parallel.
 Pedro50 10 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Nope Hersey wasn't the one - my vague memory is of the speculation being that he was caught by rain and had to make the choice between carrying on on wet rock or waiting for the rock to dry but then being too cold to climb effectively.

> It was clarified up thread that Hersey died soloing in Yosemite.

YES BY ME!
 Oliver Houston 11 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

While I agree that we don't want to dumb down the language, I don't think that this justifies Tom's comments on rape.
What he said was perfectly clear and I think it belittled rape and accused AH of doing something horrendous, which I don't think the video suggested.

In this respect I don't think the 1984 reference was an appropriate justification. Obviously just my opinion.
 Oliver Houston 11 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:
> Probably never. Who said they had? But you could have, say, cultural, linguistic or political rape which was not physically destructive.

You seemed to imply that rape of the land might not be physical. Which made no sense to me.
Cultural/linguistic rape have almost certainly happened historically, but I think you're clutching at straws to justify Toms comments. Both of those still imply some kind of destruction, or loss of a culture/language. I don't think Dan Osman or Alex Honnold can be accused of raping a climb, or climbing culture.

Edit: you are going to say you're not justifying his comments, but you are. By questioning the use of the language you have tried to make his comments acceptable.

I sincerely hope Tom hasn't been banned for what he said. I assume he's just let it run...
Post edited at 23:04
 Bulls Crack 11 Dec 2016
In reply to Pedro50:

Was it?
In reply to Dauphin:

> Its a metaphor. Not a very good one, but still he tried

> More men than women are victims of sexual assault - at least in the U.S. (more than double). Prison rape and gay rape typically. So what does your 'men have no hope of understanding' virtue signalling semiotic gibberish white knight perspective have to say about that?

> D

You missed a key word when you selectively quoted me - nicely done. "MOST men have no hope of ever properly understanding". I mean, most people have no hope.

'Virtue signalling' is a lazy critique, to my mind. As is 'white knight'. Neither of those are actual counter-arguments to anything I've said. But you have 5 likes on your post, so kudos I guess. Keep fighting the good fight against improving our use of language.
3
In reply to GarethSL:

Appreciate the apology.
2
 SenzuBean 11 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Another really good video: youtube.com/watch?v=eYmeZxB4V_E&
In reply to mrchewy:

> Either the second sentence is correct or the first one, if you want to be so black and white about things.

Lol those things are logically consistent.
Yes, context always matters. I believe there's no context in which it's a suitable metaphor for a rock climb. Rock can't have feelings - it's so far removed from the metaphor that was chosen.
1
In reply to UKC News:

Great video. The only thing that bothers me about Alex here is that (in the close-up) he looks really stoned: classic pinned-up pupils. I hope I am wrong.
4
 FactorXXX 12 Dec 2016
In reply to John Stainforth:

Great video. The only thing that bothers me about Alex here is that (in the close-up) he looks really stoned: classic pinned-up pupils. I hope I am wrong.

Or, it could be naturally constricted pupils from being filmed looking into the sun...
 Robert Durran 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Oliver Houston:
> You seemed to imply that rape of the land might not be physical. Which made no sense to me.

No I just said that rape in general in its broadest sense of defilement need not be physical.

> Cultural/linguistic rape have almost certainly happened historically, but I think you're clutching at straws to justify Toms comments. Both of those still imply some kind of destruction, or loss of a culture/language. I don't think Dan Osman or Alex Honnold can be accused of raping a climb, or climbing culture.

As I said in my first post in the thread, I think the rape metaphor is rather strong, but I do think that reducing climbs to racetracks can be seen as a vulgar and perhaps disrespectful defilement and so I think the rape metaphor is at least understandable if somebody feels strongly enough about it.

> Edit: you are going to say you're not justifying his comments, but you are.

I think the metaphor is valid. Whether it is acceptable, politically correct if you like, is a separate argument about which I am not now fully convinced either way.
Post edited at 01:49
1
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

Some more considered 'morning' thoughts here.

Virtue signalling: By accusing me of virtue signalling, you're attacking my motives rather than my argument. My motives, for what it's worth, arise from having a group of friends who are super engaged in feminism. They've inspired me to engage with it as well, and to speak out more.

White knight: This is name-calling. Again, it's no comment on my argument. The same friends use the term 'male ally' to refer to men who help push a feminist agenda.

I was wrong to refer just to men as being unable to fully understand the topic at hand - that shouldn't have been gendered. And yes, there are huge issues with American prisons, but that's a big other topic...
8
In reply to Dauphin:

> But that's not what he wrote. Its clear that he wrote that all language that has negative connatations as far as he understands feminist discourse(s) according to the gospel of Laura Bates is concerned, are off limits to be used in any other context.

That's not clear. I have mentioned one term - a particularly extreme one. There is plenty of language which inherently serves to negatively influence the way in which a subset of society is perceived (by themselves and others). There are undoubtedly grey areas - I don't think this is one such grey area.

"The GOSPEL of Laura Bates", "white knight", "virtue signalling" - your posts are good at criticising through semantics rather than logic. Not sure what issue you could have with Laura Bates? Are you against making little changes to the way we speak to help smooth the way to gender equality?
3
 Morgan Woods 12 Dec 2016
In reply to WildCamper:

> Cool vid, great soundtrack too!

Yeah but we're not here to talk about the video!
In reply to FactorXXX:

> Quite and I wonder what other metaphors should/could be banned from general usage so as to appease a handful of 'Special Snowflakes'.

'Special Snowflakes' - another battle cry of the privileged. I'm sure there are certain words that you would never dream of using because of the way they have been used systematically oppress certain groups within society.

I know that being called out on language use can be hard to take, particularly because language reflects social biases which aren't your fault. I hope that some of you reading these comments give it some thought beyond the initial 'political correctness' 'special snowflakes' '1984' reaction.
3
 Simon Caldwell 12 Dec 2016
In reply to pasbury:

> Please can we never ever use the term rape in reference to anything to do with climbing ever again.

Rape (E2 5b)
Drunk Date (V12)
Raped by the Advertisers (none 4c)
Half-raped wall (E3 5c)
Raped by Affection (E7 6c)
1
 ChrisJD 12 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> My motives, for what it's worth, arise from having a group of friends who are super engaged in feminism.

You need to chill.

People soon become bored of being lectured, so you'll be less effective at what you are trying to achieve.
2
 1poundSOCKS 12 Dec 2016
In reply to ChrisJD:

> You need to chill.

It's an obvious troll. Look at the username. Nobody likes bouldering.
 snoop6060 12 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> 'Special Snowflakes' - another battle cry of the privileged. I'm sure there are certain words that you would never dream of using because of the way they have been used systematically oppress certain groups within society.

All your posts remind me of the last season of southpark. This sounds like it's been lifted straight from the script.

youtube.com/watch?v=TCdkqP2GwWo&
youtube.com/watch?v=SM91UjnT564&


 La benya 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Do the same thing with the 'N' word and see what comes up in your search. Do you think that's acceptable? Simply because it has happened, doesn't mean it should have, should continue or shouldn't be challenged.
3
 Robert Durran 12 Dec 2016
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> It's an obvious troll. Look at the username. Nobody likes bouldering.

If I want to be really, really offensive I always opt for a bouldering metaphor.
 Michael Hood 12 Dec 2016
In reply to La benya:

> Do the same thing with the 'N' word and see what comes up in your search. Do you think that's acceptable? Simply because it has happened, doesn't mean it should have, should continue or shouldn't be challenged.

I agree that it's not acceptable but I think it's gone slightly too far with the 'N' word in that we're all saying "the 'N' word" and being afraid to actually use the word 'nigger' when the context is correct. What would have been wrong with you posting "Do the same thing with 'nigger' and see what comes up in your search." There's nothing racist about it in that context - you're obviously (because hopefully all of us know the social context) using it as an example of a previously used but now unacceptable term.
In reply to snoop6060:

Oh no. You got me.

Some questions for you, Snoop.

Do you think male privilege is a real thing?
If so, do you think as a male it is partly your responsibility to help promote gender equality.
If so, do you believe that certain forms of language may need to be changed?
6
 ChrisJD 12 Dec 2016
In reply to snoop6060:

> All your posts remind me of the last season of southpark. This sounds like it's been lifted straight from the script.
> youtube.com/watch?v=SM91UjnT564&

SLB is PC Principal off Southpark! You win £5.
 La benya 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:


Honestly, i didn't think it would slip through the filter!
but...
I'm assuming you're white? That's why you think that.
Its a word that can be used with such force behind it that hearing it even in the most benign way is jarring for those it can affect.

However it is a slightly bad comparison as that word has no other use, where as rape does (in the right context). In that respect i don't think there is/ ever an appropriate reason to call a climb by that name, do you?
2
 La benya 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

... it is odd, however, as I generally have no problem swearing... a lot. In fact there was a huge thread a while ago where i suggested 'c*nt' was just a word. But there are words that are just words and only gain offensiveness because of some ridiculous reason.... and then there are words that are truly offensive.
 Dave Garnett 12 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

OK, I've stood back in fascinated disbelief until now but, while well-intentioned, you are starting to get on my nerves.

> Do you think male privilege is a real thing?

Yes. Do I think that means that gendered metaphor can't be used in any other context than actual behaviour towards women, no, of course not.

> If so, do you think as a male it is partly your responsibility to help promote gender equality.

Obviously, but in what way does using a slightly over the top, but not completely misplaced, metaphor damage gender equality? It's not like rape was being used a term of approval. And you're the one making assumptions about the gender of the route.

> If so, do you believe that certain forms of language may need to be changed?

I think that everyone needs to consider the language they use, in context. Obviously, making some trivial comparison with rape is distasteful. Using 'raped' in the context of online gaming, for instance, is something I've discussed with my kids and made clear that in my view it's unacceptable. But it's about learning to use the language we have with precision, not trying to change it, by which you seem to mean proscribing usage you have misunderstood.

Anyway, I've seen lyrical writing about climbing describe routes as 'seductive' and of 'flirting' with first ascents. I don't see anything wrong with using rape to describe the forceable overpowering of a climb that deserved to be enjoyed with delicacy, finesse and respect - and taking no for an answer if that's what happens. I don't think that's disrespectful to anyone. How could any such metaphor applied to an inanimate object be considered as a direct comparison? Someone made the point above that people say that they got 'killed' in the gym or that a run is 'murder' all the time. Does that imply literal equivalence to someone losing their life? Of course not.

As also pointed out above, 'rape' has lots of non-sexual as well as non-literal meanings. Not everyone uses language in the way you do, and certainly not in the way you'd prefer. You're right that we should think carefully about the words we use but, having done so, we should use them fearlessly.
In reply to Dave Garnett:
Appreciate this response. Never meant to post as much in here (or at all!) but felt the need to respond to interpretations or accusations of motives which were, well, not true. I find the 1984, PC Gone Mad responses disheartening - you've clearly given this more thought.

>in what way does using a slightly over the top, but not completely misplaced, metaphor damage gender equality?

It's about trivialisation. Which IS a problem with the public perception of rape, but I think I've said that upthread

Ok, done.

*Backs away quietly*
Post edited at 14:23
2
 Robert Durran 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Thanks. You have said far more eloquently what I and others have, I think, been trying to say.
 Dave Garnett 12 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> Ok, done.

> *Backs away quietly*

Gracefully done. And, to be clear, your heart is totally in the right place.
 Michael Hood 12 Dec 2016
In reply to La benya: I cannot think of any acceptable use of 'nigger' except in the context of showing its former use as a racist term that was unacceptable and demeaning.

There are a few climbs that include it in their name and they make me feel a little uncomfortable. I wonder if they should be censored even if the usage isn't (directly) racist.
 La benya 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Michael Hood:

I would, and to be honest I cant believe media outlets (UKC) and guidebook publishers are willing to print it purely for historical accuracy.

Someone will come along as say there's no harm in using a word from a bygone era- They will be white.

I can only imagine how heartbreaking it is to walk up to a wall and see that as a description for a line.
 planetmarshall 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> You're right that we should think carefully about the words we use but, having done so, we should use them fearlessly.

Nicely put. However, unlike Robert, I'm not so convinced that other posters were trying to say anything of the kind. And anyone who uses the term "Special Snowflake" is a "Breitbart Wanker".
 Robert Durran 12 Dec 2016
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Nicely put. However, unlike Robert, I'm not so convinced that other posters were trying to say anything of the kind.

I think his second and fourth paragraphs put across very well what lots of people have been trying to say.
 jon 12 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

This is UKC at its worst. Even though I have the utmost respect for two or three of you, I just can't see how anyone can arrive at where you have from a fun climbing video that simply and gently takes the piss out of another fun video. Rape, racism...? I'm sorry, I just find it a bit sad.
 TobyA 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

I think they are all not very nice names for climbs. I wrote a column in Climb a few years ago about how climb names are very reflective of their historical eras, I wonder if these fit that theory too?
 Robert Durran 12 Dec 2016
In reply to jon:

> I just can't see how anyone can arrive at where you have from a fun climbing video.

If you read the thread it will be abundantly clear how, like it or not, it has arrived at this point.
 jon 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Robert Durran:

> If you read the thread it will be abundantly clear how, like it or not, it has arrived at this point.

I have, Rob, or at least enough to see it swerving out of control. Maybe I should have said:

> I just can't understand how anyone can arrive...
 Mike Hewitt 12 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Classic UKC thread derailment
cb294 12 Dec 2016
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

These route names are horrible, unless there is a hidden joke somewhere that I am missing. I definitely would feel uncomfortable suggesting to climb them with my female climbing partners.

CB
4
 Steve Wetton 13 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

A poor video and a shallow stunt by Honnald. One of these days a hold will snap and he'll die, quite possibly doing something like this rather than on some serious route. Why are we indulging him? Solos of El Cap etc progress the sport, push limits.....this is trivia. But still, if we feed the machine, this is what we get!
8
 Dave Garnett 13 Dec 2016
In reply to Steve Wetton:

> A poor video and a shallow stunt by Honnald. One of these days a hold will snap and he'll die, quite possibly doing something like this rather than on some serious route.

Blimey, I'm with Jon, what happened to fun? Isn't it a bit odd to worry that Honnold might kill himself and then criticise him for soloing something easy?
1
 Steve Wetton 14 Dec 2016
In reply to UKC News:

Nothing wrong with fun at all! Just expressing a feeling of uncomfortableness with watching this.
 Dauphin 17 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

Laura Bates makes stuff up. Invents entire fictional castles of gender (ed) inequality where non exist, ref her Guardian column inches ( non phalic, obviously ). I'd hesitate to call her a third rate hack, never mind a third wave feminist. If you are going to start policing language you had better reference some deeper philosophical underpinning than LB.

Which bits of life would you like to be more equal and which bits would you feel made more equal by changing language? You sound like my mother admonishing me for using uncouth words at the dining table.

Go f*ck yourself. Twice on a Sunday.

D
5
 Dauphin 17 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

>My motives, for what it's worth, arise from having a >group of friends who are super engaged in feminism. >They've inspired me to engage with it as well, and to >speak out more

Which one are you trying to f*ck?

Sorry to diminish your motives there fella. But I'm guessing like Laura ( white, middle class British, superbly educated, moderately priveledged and female) none of them are are victims in lifes equality lottery. There's nowhere left to accuse the patriachy of secretly plotting to conspire against us ( here in the u.k.) so let's set about policing language....

D


7
 jsmcfarland 18 Dec 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

I couldn't be honestly be bothered to skim through 200 replies to get to whoever you were arguing with but thought I would share a few articles on the topic from a left perspective

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/01/28/when-white-peop... - My favourite.

https://imperiumadinfinitum.wordpress.com/2016/11/11/class-is-more-intersec...
https://imperiumadinfinitum.wordpress.com/2016/11/11/balancing-identity-and...
http://isj.org.uk/whats-wrong-with-privilege-theory/
In reply to Dauphin:
> >My motives, for what it's worth, arise from having a >group of friends who are super engaged in feminism. >They've inspired me to engage with it as well, and to >speak out more

> Which one are you trying to f*ck?

You're assumption, then, is that a man would only engage with feminism in order to have sex? Feel sorry for you and the women in your life, I suppose. Good luck to them.

Again, you're attacking my supposed motives rather than ANYTHING to do with feminism.

> Sorry to diminish your motives there fella.

No you're not.

> But I'm guessing like Laura ( white, middle class British, superbly educated, moderately priveledged and female) none of them are are victims in lifes equality lottery.

Women earn less than men for doing the same jobs. They ARE victims of life's equality lottery! But yes, they're well educated and moderately privileged. I guess they should just cling onto that rather than trying to engage in a wider movement to provide those social opportunities to others less fortunate.

In reference to your "go f*ck yourself" post, I'm not holding up LB as the deepest feminist philosophical thinker. I do think it's a good route in, particularly for men, most of whom have never given it two thoughts.
Post edited at 10:32
2
In reply to
> Which one are you trying to f*ck?

This is the whole point really. Your response to a bunch of women you've never met is to reduce them to sexual objects.

*10 dislikes*
1
 Dauphin 18 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:


>Women earn less than men for doing the same jobs. >They ARE victims of life's equality lottery!


No they don't. At least not in the UK or the U.K. It's been debunked countless times. By feminists. They also benefit hugely disproportionally from the gross tax take in terms of direct benefits, housing and health. So not victims there either.

D
7
 GrantM 18 Dec 2016
In reply to SteveLikesBouldering:

> I'm not holding up LB as the deepest feminist philosophical thinker. I do think it's a good route in, particularly for men, most of whom have never given it two thoughts.

That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation based on a negative stereotype of men. You are being recalled to SJW school for re-education.

 andrewmc 18 Dec 2016
In reply to Dauphin:
Women earn, on average, less than men. Whether they get paid the same for the same role is interesting but irrelevant. Either you believe that women work less hard than men, and thus deserve lower renumeration than men, or women are discriminated against. The method of discrimination could be one of a large number of factors, such as women being pushed into part-time work by cultural pressure or childcare, being passed over for promotion, indirect or subconcious bias when hiring (for example our culture has tended to promote ambitious confident men but be biased against ambitious confident women). But the method is not important to deciding whether or not women are discriminated; all that matter is that they earn less. This means either:

a) women choose, freely, to do less work than men, and so earn less, or
b) women are discriminated against and so earn less money than men.

If you choose a), you have to decide what biological difference between men and women is responsible for women deciding to work less hard than men.

PS the idea that people get paid for what they deserve, male or female, in our capitalist society is laughable, but that's a different argument for a different day...
Post edited at 15:28
1
 elliott92 18 Dec 2016
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Only on this forum can a chat about how epic honnold is turn into a bitch about inequality.
Post edited at 16:25
In reply to GrantM:

Fair play - sorry, was irked by Dauphin.
 Arms Cliff 19 Dec 2016
In reply to jsmcfarland:

If you click on the 'in reply to' in the top left beneath the user name, it takes you to the post they were replying to.
 Dauphin 23 Dec 2016
In reply to andrewmcleod:

>Women earn, on average, less than men. Whether they >get paid the same for the same role is interesting but >irrelevant.

A) might be true in some/ many circumstances
B) might be also be true in an increasingly few avenues of employment

They are not mutually exclusive and both apply to men in a few fields of employment although we don't see arias being sung about the dearth of male primary school teachers, nurses or personal shoppers.

Jaysus, how can you say it's irrelevant? Women work less hours than men on average, do you want them to get paid more for working less hours to account for the less than 5% adjusted total wage differential in the U.S. and U.K. ?

Okay, they already receive more direct benefits, a greater spend on health and pensions than their male counterparts, now you want women to be compensated for being less productive (on average) because of some putative biological impedance? Not sure what kind of equality that would amount to, certainly not one a 'feminist' ought to be promoting.

D
1
 andrewmc 24 Dec 2016
In reply to Dauphin:

I don't believe that there are biological differences between men and women that explain or justify the wage gap.

Consequently, women and men should earn the same. If they earn less because they work less, then I assume the issue is that women are not given the same opportunities to work full time, or the glass ceiling prevents women gaining higher-paid roles.

If women were only allowed to work 20 hours a week and but paid an additional 10 hours a weeks wages for the 'difficulties' of being female, would that be fair? Of course not, even though they are getting more money for less work; that is not the solution. I don't believe there is a biological impedance; I do believe cultural and societal factors prevent women from gaining the same employment 'success' (in financial terms) as men. Many of these factors will probably be subtle and relate to mens and womens aspirations and expectations as much as direct/indirect discrimination. If we ever completely eliminate sexism and achieve gender blindness, women will earn the same as men because they will be doing the same things as men and have the same opportunities and expectations of men.

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...