UKC

I've been doing my own gear test over the last 12 months, comparing Arcteryx's Alpha SV, Mountain Equipments Changabang and Mountain Hardware's Drystein II jacket, and I have reached the following conclusion...

...They are all superb jackets, and there is no difference whatsoever in performance.

There is however a big difference in price. You can pick up a Changabang or Drystein for around the £300 mark, whereas an Alpha SV will cost twice that.

I realise the ME and MH jackets are made in China and the Arctetyx in Canada - so there is a difference in manufacturing costs - but irrespective of this, I still think the Arctetyx prices are silly.

I can only presume that Arctetyx's pricing structure is made up by someone in a dark room listening to a Captain Beefheart album whilst enjoying a very long smoke?

In reply to Goucho:
Do not diss the Captain !!
' A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous Got me !
When she wears her bolero
Then she begin to dance
All the pachucos start with holdin' hands

When she drives her Chevy
Sissy's don't dare to glance
Yellow jackets an red debbles
Buzzin' 'round her hair hive ho

- Pure wisdom and thats a proper jacket review.

In reply to Goucho:


Kindly report back in say 8 years...

In reply to HeMa:


If the ME and MH only last 4 years, I'm still no worse off financially, so that's a non argument.

In reply to Goucho:

True...

That said, MH and ME are actually directly benefiting currently on the high price tag from 'Ryx. As 'Ryx is one of the key developpers of new technologies when it comes to alpine clothing (welding instead of sowing, new Gore stuff, thin seam tapes etc.).

Still, I do agree that without gettin' 'Ryx stuff on sale, pro or shop form... well, they are bloody spendy and bang for bucks, way way over priced.

That said, you'll get a lot more bang for bucks than MHW or ME with Simond or Craghopper .

In reply to Goucho:
You appear to be comparing the sale price of a Changabang to full rrp for an Alpha SV in order to exagerrate a point. From what I can see the Changabang is mostly available for about £380-400 and the Alpha for £500-550. The RRPs are £450 vs. £600.

In reply to HeMa:

The good thing about Arcteryx is that they are in a price segment that is aimed at people who don´t care how much a piece of equipment costs.

These people will always buy the newest model, which means we normal mortals can get higher discounts on last years jackets than, say, for similarly priced Mammut clothes.

I bought Arcteryx Gore overtrousers from two seasons ago for not much more than I would pay for a Berghaus paclite, and indeed they are good, but not good enough to justify the list price of the current model.

CB

In reply to Lemony:


No, I'm comparing the average prices you will pay. Whilst you could pick up an Alpha for £500, I've also seen a Changabang for £260 and a Drystein for £240.

Either way, the Alpha is significantly more expensive than the others, and after several alpine routes (both summer and winter) I can't see where the extra performance is for the substantial price difference?

In reply to Goucho:

So, let's get this right. You bought BOTH these overpriced jackets so you could compare them?

In reply to Goucho:



Any current deals in that range? I am looking for a good offer Changabang, but they seem to be closer to 380 and most of these offers are not available in XXL.
CB

In reply to Goucho:

Remember that every technical feature on modern jackets pretty much originated in the basement in Arc'teryx.

They are one of the very few companies who actually deliver all the marketing bullshit they promise.

Not to mention their attention to detail and build quality is far ahead of any other brands (bar Westcomb).

Also don't forget the alpha sv is basically the jacket all other brands have based their design on. The resemblance is often uncanny. Not bad for a design that has only changed a little since 1998.

But yes. Their prices are becoming outrageous. Especially as quality has been slipping and much if the gear isn't made in Canada at all any more. But thinking historically I remember when the changabang was £260 and the alpha sv £360 so in a way it's been consistently about 100 quid more for the last 12 years or so.

In reply to jon:


I already had an ME and MH jacket (I always have a couple of jackets on the go) and yes, I then bought the Alpha out of curiosity to see what all the fuss was about?

In reply to Goucho:


In which case you're comparing the price of previous season stock to price of current season stock. Anyone selling current season stock at 45% off is going out of business.

Plenty of clearance list deals on Arcteryx gear at the right time of year.

In reply to Lemony:



I'm sensing you're a fan of Arcteryx

In reply to Goucho:

Not really, I have a few bits but they've all been bought of the clearance list at trade price, I just think your comparison is wrong.

In reply to Goucho:


You can't possibly know what the 'average price you will pay' is. All you have a is a single sample from a single point in time. I don't disagree that some gear is overpriced, but at least compare like with like if you're going to do a fair comparison.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Well I'm basing it on what I paid, which was £320 for my ME Changabang, £290 for my MH Drystein and £600 for my Arcteryx Alpha SV.

In reply to Goucho:

Everything has a price, and everything has a value.
Some nice jackets you've got there. Enjoy

In reply to GarethSL:

Agreed Arcteryx make great gear, but there is some snob value to the label. LOts of reporters on the box seem to wear it.

I own lots of their clothing but have never paid full price for the latest model. If you walk and climb generally you stay in shape and as a brand it seems to be slim cut and not much in the way of extraneous flappy bits on jackets etc but will still allow freedom of movement when climbing or wearing helmets.
I have found certain makes of suit fit well in the same way. Great stuff but full price cannot be justified. I went in the Shop in Piccadilly the other day and saw a Mac in the 'urban' Arcteryx range for £900!

Have posted this before but as a reminder if you want Arcteryx bargains and are visiting Vancouver there is a factory shop on the North shore. They selling seconds with barely detectable faults to linings etc at very good prices.

In reply to zimpara:


Obviously. However, whilst I can JUST about consider the ME and MH jackets being value for money, the Arcteryx certainly isn't.

In reply to Goucho:

Prices are all over the place for mountain jackets. About five years ago, I saw a North Face one for about 900 Canadian Dollar in Banff. Shortly after that I saw the same jacket in Hathersage for about 300 pounds, and for 150 dollars reduced to 80 dollars in a west Houston mall. I bought the 80 dollar one!

In reply to Goucho:

Try the Arcteryx Squamish windshirt at a more approachable £50 premium (still almost double the price) over the mid-range competition. There's good value.

In reply to Goucho:

A jacket priced double that of another will never be twice as good. Welcome to the law of diminishing returns. See also 'hi fi'.

In reply to John Stainforth:

But how much use is a mountain jacket in Texas?

In reply to Dorchester:


They seemed to be clothing supplier to one of the sci-fi TV series at one point, can't remember, but think it was one of the Stargate spin-offs.


I have an Arcteryx Khamsin 38 rucksack, came from the bargain bin at MEC in Vancouver. We didn't have time to find the factory shop. It's a really good bag, but I'd never have paid full UK retail price for it. Best bit about it was I could get a smaller hip belt for it, as the one it came with didn't tighten enough for me.

In reply to Goucho:


Which is ironic given that you seem to be the only person this thread who's paid full RRP for any of their kit!

In reply to Goucho:

I bought my first Arcteryx (can never remember where the apostrophe goes!) a couple of weeks back. Nothing technical, just a t-shirt. And I only bought it because it was yellow.

In reply to Goucho:


ME actually make their Gore Tex jackets in Europe

In reply to Goucho:
If it is a new Alpha SV then it'll be 100 denier.
Changabang is 80, would guess Drystein at 40/80.
12 month probably not enough time to see difference in wear/abrasion between them.

My understanding is that the 100 denier fabric took A LOT of development which is an expensive business.

Bruce

In reply to Tyler:

Does that invalidate his point of view?

In reply to Tyler:


What's ironic about it?

If I consider the kit to be value for money at full RRP, then if it's less, it becomes very good value for money, or even a bargain. If Arcteryx stuff was 40% cheaper it would still only just qualify as being value for money IMHO.

And to be blunt, my financial circumstances mean I'm not exactly short of a bob or two, yet I still consider Arcteryx's prices to be silly.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:


I do understand that. I'm not expecting it to be twice as good, just better, and so far, it simply isn't.

In reply to Hay:




Valid point.

Maybe the performances will be different in a few years, but the durability of the Arcteryx will have to last over twice that of the ME and MH in order to justify itself on financial grounds.

In reply to John Stainforth:

Oh you can shop about John and get some good deals, but I think there is a lot of gratuitous 'brand pricing' going on - possibly a reflection of the higher end outdoor brands moving deliberately into the lucrative high street fashion market - and which Arcteryx in particular, seem to be taking to the extreme.

In reply to Goucho:

Arcteryx reckon it is twice as durable as their old 80D Alpha AV.
Time will tell I guess.
It is not really a straight line though is it - maybe that 20D will prevent a tear after 6 months??
So to answer original point - I don't think they are the same. One has had more R and D and is made of more stuff.
How that pans out if use is obv. less clear and maybe a bit more subjective.

In reply to Goucho and Timmid:





Christ, last time I make a light hearted throw away comment on here. I'll leave you grown ups to discuss your fabric weights and welded seams in peace

In reply to Goucho:


Ooof, you a film star or summat?

In reply to Goucho:

People who have spent £600 on an anorak will tend to be very defensive about it.

In reply to Goucho:


Perhaps you're just not in their target demographic. I consider Range Rovers to be a colossal waste of money, particularly when a Skoda Yeti or Kia is a fraction of the price.

In reply to GrahamD:

In reply to planetmarshall:


If a comfortably off serious climber isn't their target market, pray tell me who is?

And if you're only judging a car on it's ability in getting from A to B, fine, but I'll take my Range Rover purely on the basis of comfort and refinement any day, plus I get to annoy tree huggers and vegans too

In reply to jon:


Absolutely. In fact I've got Daniel Craig and Rachel coming to stay for Christmas

In reply to GrahamD:


Best comment yet

In reply to Goucho:


Excellent. Make it look like an accident...

In reply to Goucho:


At a guess I'd say you could probably get by with something far less expensive, but the brand has a bit of cachet and people are particularly good at retrospectively justifying their purchases, particularly when the brand has acquired some level of loyalty from the consumer.

I dare say certain clothing brands have a similar effect. I like Arcteryx gear. By and large it fits pretty well, and I like the colours. Sure I could probably spend less money, but it just wouldn't be the same.

In reply to Tyler:


'Light hearted throw away comment' and 'UKC'?

See if you can spot where you went wrong?

In reply to Dell:

None whatever! But Texans do travel from TX to other states. Those who go skiing buy all their gear in Texan rather than the expensive mountain resorts.

In reply to planetmarshall:



You do realise you've just contradicted yourself here?

You can't criticise someone driving a Range Rover whilst wearing Arcteryx.

In reply to Goucho:




In my experience it does last over twice as long (SV-v-ME Kongur).

I also think it is better designed (little things, such as ease of hood adjustment with one gloved hand, not needing to open the jacket to tighten the waist, less ride when reaching up etc).

In reply to Tyler:


Ah. Add a smiley so it's clear

My tone was light hearted too.

In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:


Don't even get started on road bikes!!!

In reply to Goucho:

A lot of the Arcteryx stuff (clothing and sacks) was/is designed by an old Canadian climber partner of mine, Larry Reid. A really nice down to earth guy. I'm sure he has nothing to do with the pricing.

In reply to rogerwebb:

I'll report back in 10 years then Roger



I actually prefer the MH Drystein in terms of design, fit and fabric, but as that's a bit subjective, I thought I'd just judge it on overall performance against the ME and MH jackets in relationship to price.

In reply to Goucho:

I've actually had quite a good field test, Alpha SV for climbing and ME Kongur through MRT. Apart from fit which is subjective the main difference is that the ME has simply worn faster and the face fabric has eroded to holes at stress points. You could argue that mrt involves bigger loads and worse weather and less care but I don't do quite so much chimney grovelling in that kit so it probably evens out.

Now I am going to say paramo...............

In reply to rogerwebb:


And you were doing really well, too.

In reply to Goucho:


No. No, I can't.

In reply to Goucho:
I bought a goretex 3 layer pro shell jacket , the goretex is interwoven with kevlar and cordura for proper abrasion resistance. It also has a detachable 3 layer goretex stretch windstopper inner jacket. Lots of pockets, lots of ventilation, and designed from scratch and made in Finland. It is also regarded as the "Rolls Royce" in it's field (Rukka motorcycle jacket)

It wasn't a lot more expensive than your Arcteryx jacket that is just a jumped up cagoule for badge jockies on finance

Incidentally, If they get anymore expensive, I suspect they will become as ubiquitous as Canada Goose parkas in my local supermarket

In reply to Goucho:

You can't criticise someone driving a Range Rover whilst wearing Arcteryx.

You can if they weren't colour coordinated.

In reply to Goucho:

Looks like I bagged myself a bargain then, when I recently got a new Mountain Hardwear Drystein II jacket on Ebay for a few quid over £100.

Granted it's in a colour called Radiance, which is a sort of bright gold/yellow, but at least the MRT will be able to locate me easily the next time my ambition runs out of talent.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of spending much more than £100 on any item of outdoor clothing for the kind of stuff I do.

In reply to Goucho:

A squid eating dough in a polyethylene bag is fast and bulbous. Got me? That's right!

I'll have to admit that I'm fully paid-up, swivel-eyed member of the Canadian Dinosaur Cult that would make a Hare Krishna blush...but their products are simply excellent.

I've owned the ME Changabang, and was really disappointed, especially at that price. I also have the Alpha SV, and it's fecking outstanding. Yes, Arc-teryx prices are at the premium end, but even though I own enough of their stuff to clothe half of British Columbia, I've paid full-price for very little of it. Patient internet-watching and buying post-season, and you can pick-up their stuff at sensible prices. Could I walk into Piccadilly and equip myself for the season? Nope. Not without doing over a Post Office first.

The snob value thing is a bit unfair, some folk are lucky enough just to be able to afford the stuff, whether you're head-to toe in Arc'teryx, Nørrona or (*in tears laughing*) Spyder.

Their returns and support service is excellent, can't fault them.

In reply to Goucho:



Range Rover owning vegan here.....#notannoyed

In reply to Goucho:

Arcteyrx is for posers and sponsored athletes.

I saw a guy at the wall today who got to the car park got out of his T5, put on his Arcteyrx jacket then walked into the wall, took of his Arcteyrx jacket then told me (at length) about how hard his project was.

I had a quiet word with one of the youth development climbers and sent her (age 11) to go and on sight it in front of him. Bad but funny.

In reply to Dell:

Texas mountains are pretty close to twice the height of Ben Nevis. Both Big Bend and north at El Capitan up towards Cloudcroft. Very extreme snow conditions in winter too.
Reminds me of a story once going up Lochnagar one summer evening with some oil company friends from here and there - and Iran. A Scottish guy said, "Och these Iranians are doon verra weil".
I said to him,
Do you know the height of Damavand?
(several times higher than the Ben).
Parochialism is never a good idea.

In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:


In Finland, new Rukka is mainly worn by middle aged office types for playing golf and a bit of XC in the winter. But it seems to last quite well because you'll see drunks with soiled 90s Rukka shell suit jackets shuffling around in the parks and underground.

In reply to TobyA: that my friend is the fate of all outdoor brands - berghaus, TNF and eventually Arcteryx will get there. It is the way of things

In reply to wbo:

What? Some drunk will be contentedly peeing down the leg of his 30 year old Arcteryx softshell troos in another couple of decades? Hope he comes by some black ones so its not quite as obvious as someone soiling themselves in jeans is! :-0

In reply to Goucho:
I like Arcteryx and can see myself getting a lot more of it. Such great quality......and I love Beefheart !

In reply to GarethSL:

+1 for Westcomb. Though in order to get one you need to make a wee trip to North America or deal with the import duty. The Switch is absolutely superb. For a sweaty chap like myself, amazing breathability: noticeably better than GoreTex Active etc. and tougher too. Excellent features and the best hood I've seen on a hard shell. Doesn't half look bad either. http://westcomb.com/product/switch-hoody/ Here's the outdoorgearlab review of its close relation, the Shift: http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Hardshell-Jacket-Reviews/Westcomb-Shift-LT The Switch is the only piece of *expensive* outdoor clothing I've ever paid full price for (my winter climbing trousers are modded standard issue Paramo...) and I have no regrets whatsoever.

Arc'teryx also v good. So long as you obey The First Rule of Outdoor Gear: Never pay full price for Arc'teryx!

In reply to Tricadam:

They tried selling Westcomb in Britain but it never took off http://www.ukclimbing.com/gear/review.php?id=2285

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Amusing, but that story sounds totally made up. Or at the very least somewhat embellished.

In reply to TobyA:

I have only seen their motorcycle range in UK, but don't doubt your analysis. Are their other ranges of outdoor clothes premium price? Certainly in motorcycle gear it is hard to beat ... and the design, technology and materials makes a mockery of £600 + for a waterproof climbing jacket IMO.

Pricing is obviously part of the marketing, hence £1000 parkas being worn for school runs and Waitrose trips. The red and blue badge on the arm indicating that you have "made it" , just like the skeleton of a bird (?)

Out of interest, what is the mark up on a Arcteryx jacket? 50%?

In reply to Goucho:


Simple; If the Arcteryx lasts twice as long, then it's good value, and if it doesn't then it's not.

In reply to planetmarshall:

OK it's slightly embellished. In reality I've no idea if he has a t5 or if he put the jacket on just to cross the carpark.

The key facts are he's got an Arkteryxe jacket, last week was winging about his project, and today a kid onsighted it.

Spoil sport

In reply to Goucho:


Military forces (special operations units) around the globe seem to be the *thing*. Besides, selling to climbers is generally a really bad model, as the ones that actually might require the high class gear are already either spancered... or so darn poor, they'll belay for food (que Fred Beckett photo).

In reply to FreeHeelSki:


Thank god, you forgot Bogner... I was already gettin' shivers.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


Do you realise how many cows have sacrificed their lives for your upholstery?

In reply to Goucho:

My motto is to buy used and to buy infrequently.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:


It's not all milk and honey being a Arc'teryx-wearing, T5 Camper-owning climber you know. Not only do you get out-climbed by 11 year olds, but I have to spend a fortune on tyres for the thing, forcing me to spend hours on the internet finding on-sale Arc'teryx .

(*Cut to sad music with black and white footage of a glum looking Arc'teryx-wearing climber stood beside a muddy T5 and a narrator speaks solemnly and sincerely... *)

"...every day around the country, T5-owning climbers struggle to buy Arc'teryx. Faced with being out-climbed by children, Volkswagen dealer servicing costs, a seasonally changing Arc'teryx colour range, and being ignored by Norrøna-wearing Scandinavians, life can be very, very difficult. But, with a donation of only £2 a month, you can help support them with their next insulated jacket purchase or a LED headlight upgrade. Please. Donate now."

(*Cut to happy, uplifting music and colour footage of a blissful Arc'teryx-wearing climber frolicking in the snow with beautiful Nordic-types in Norrøna, next to an immaculate T6 California...)

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:


OK, now I just feel bad. Especially as I wear arcteryx and regularly get burned off by 11 year olds at the wall.

In reply to HeMa:

Well that doesn't tie in with where they seem to spend the bulk of their advertising and PR budget, which is very much targeting climbers?

I suppose inevitably though, they will chase TNF business model (as will ME, MH and Rab) because it's the most lucrative - the fashion conscious 'psudo' outdoor's market is much bigger, and one where the more people pay is seen as a badge of status. You can't possibly be seen walking the dog in Greenwich Park wearing last seasons colours!

In reply to Goucho:

Because you don't advertise for those clients, it's all done in shows and procurement so you;ll only see the adverts for climbers. Patagonia have a large military selling wing, as do Outdoor Research.

In reply to Goucho:


Well it depends. The price to pay for chasing TNF would be the devaluation of their brand from being a premium label and a technological leader - they can't have everything. I'd like to see them follow Patagonia, who in recent years have gone from "Patagucci" to focussing on being the ethical choice.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Patagonia have always been ethical from the begining when Chounard founded it - 10% of their profit has always been donated to environmental charities IIRC?

And being seen as a premium label on the high street has always been more lucrative than a niche market. Most of the premium brand climbing clothing companies are now ultimately run by businessmen, shareholders and investors, not climbers.

In reply to Robert Durran:


But that's reducing an emotional payback to a mathematical equation. You do realise that some people get pleasure from their clothing choices, don't you? A good proportion of the population buy a shirt, dress or pair of shoes because it makes them feel good, not just for utility. After all, they probably have serviceable clothes already.

Why should different rules apply to outdoor clothing? Indeed the runaway success of outdoor brands should be enough to persuade you of this fact.

I wear high end, branded gear not because it makes me feel like the sponsored athlete I patently am not, but in order to experience the best in protection, breathability, light weight, durability, design or performance. And it adds to my pleasure on the hill in a way that a lower spec garment would not. I might only climb Scottish IV, but damn I'm comfortable, and I can stay calmer and more rational when my gear is working for me rather than irritating with its minor cost-saving deficiencies.

PS My wife also comments positively on my Arcteryx jackets in a way never mirrored by similar appreciation of ME or Montane efforts so you can probably add extra sex to the list of benefits

In reply to Goucho:

I'm not convinced - the best jacket I've ever had cost me £60 from TK Max - it has lasted over 10 years (including many Scottish and Alpine trips) and it is still waterproof and breathable. It's getting on a bit now, the dirt seems welded in and the labels are peeling off but it still functions perfectly even though it doesn't possess much posing value anymore.

The brand cultishness around artetrix is odd - I meet someone with one of their coats a few weeks ago on a miserably wet day. They were all pumped up and over excited like an over excited puppy about being able to see if it was "worth it". Sure enough they stayed dry but then so did I. I suspect the real USP is simply the price but, for some of us, spending a fortune on a coat simply isn't that exciting so we'll never "get it".

I once won an artetrix chalkbag once - it held chalk as well as any other chalk bag but had a nasty placky feel about it and an annoying buckle that got in the way - probably innovations and probably expensive but no better than the chalk bag I actually use (come to think of it, after 15 years the bouldering brush loop is wearing out - maybe it is time to change)...

In reply to Goucho:

What you (everyone?) seems to be missing here is that someone who's willing to spend that much money on a jacket because it might last ten years, is simply wasting their money as there's no way they'll want to be seen dead wearing ten year old colours/styles.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:


I can't say I've ever noticed it being specific to Arcteryx, but brand loyalty is a fairly reliable phenomenon that the advertising industry relies on. People will claim that they're happy walking up the hill in an orange refuse sack, but you can usually discover at least one irrational purchase based on little more than the brand, retrospectively justified on the basis of comfort or 'feel'.

In reply to BnB:

That's one way to check its breathability?

So whilst Arcteryx always keeps you dry, it has exactly the opposite effect on your wife?

In reply to jon:


I only bought mine, because it was there

In reply to planetmarshall:


Although selling comfortable clothes for killing people in to the military-industrial complex doesn't really fit with the whole "let my people go surfing" thing does it?

A brief google didn't actually find an obvious Patagonia military line - there is stuff on blogs and in webshops and the like but they are either keeping it very quiet in terms of PR or perhaps not serving that market currently?

In reply to jon:


A very good point. But have you seen the price commanded by second-hand Arcteryx jackets on UKC For Sale? The residuals are good in the same way that a £80k Porsche costs less to own for two years than a £40k BMW.

In reply to Goucho:


Yep, the irony isn't lost on me.
I think that means I shouldn't like Beefheart either....but every home should have a copy of Clear Spot.

In reply to duchessofmalfi:


Isn't there also a value on things we buy and use that goes beyond the financial? That person may have been saving up for ages for that jacket, pouring over reviews and write-ups and planning outings, all of which becomes invested in the jacket. Or it could be a car, or fancy saucepan - things that are used all the time and quietly appreciated every day. If they cost twice as much as something similar that could ostensibly do the same job, but that doesn't prompt the same emotional response, then they could still be 'worth it'.

It's probably a bit of a stretch to argue that this notion automatically applies to Arcteryx stuff, though I'm sure the company tries hard to promote this, but if things are well-made, with thought and care, then it's more likely to be appreciated.

That's not to say that inexpensive things can't have a similar emotional value, as people have already commented. And maybe it's illogical to give things an emotional value, or a character, but most people probably do to some degree. People who only buy on the basis of absolute price might be missing out on a greater satisfaction - though perhaps if every time they use their cheaply made saw that sticks with every stroke they think happily 'I saved so much money buying this', then good for them

In reply to jon:


Fashion passed me by, I mourn the passing of tweed.

In reply to TobyA:
They do, but its more discreet now e.g. http://www.patagonia.com/product/level-3a-jacket/19213.html

The above drives from their old and now outdated PCU/MARS (Protective Combat Uniforms/ Military Advanced Regulator System) line which went on a series of 'Levels' eg Level 1 base layer, Level 2 fleece, level 3 insulation, level 4 windshell, level 5 softshell, level 6 hardshell etc. etc.

http://webbingbabel.blogspot.no/2016_09_01_archive.html

IIRC the MARS line came out when the Americans started sending troops into the Afghan mountains and discovered their gear was simply not up to it sometime around 2006 after the original issued PCU stuff wasn't so great.

One of the really interesting things about the Issued Patagonia MARS line was the sizing options. Being military it had to adhere to the sizing requirements. Hence jackets came in medium-long or large-short sizes, and trousers in, I think, single inch waists and optional leg lengths. It's a real shame this isn't applied to civilian line clothes more extensively. It was also mostly made in America.

Still, I don't think they're really into it any more, it was all very quiet from the start and I remember being surprised when the gear started showing up on eBay. It's largely been replaced by Arc'teryx LEAF.

In reply to TobyA:


I suppose it depends on how fine tuned your ethics-o- meter is. they could change their slogans to "No animals were harmed in the making of your jacket, but what you do while wearing it is your own affair."

In reply to BnB:


Sorry, lost me there.

In reply to GarethSL:

Such as what? The fabrics didn't and other than that , what "features" are there that didn't exist 20 years ago?

I bought a £120 Jack Wolfson jacket recently. Seems better if anything than its £200 Rab predecessor.

In reply to rogerwebb:


Molecord breeches, red socks, Norwegian wool sweaters over tartan lumberjack shirts and Dacsteins, now you're talking

In reply to jon:


I think you're underestimating just how crucial a top of the range Arcteryx jacket is when the mist decends on Striding Edge?

In reply to Goucho:

ive got a Marmot Troll Wall Pro Shell from about 7/8 years ago. Cost me abou 350 i seem to recall. Still looks as good as new although i could donwith giving it a treatment then it will perform as good as new.

Thats value.

In reply to FreeHeelSki:

It's a sad state of affairs.

Just last week I saw someone with a T5 but no approach shoes. They had to walk to the wall in trainers.

A very moving sight.

In reply to MG:

Yes that definitely came out too strong. Of course not *every* but some of the things they did first that spring to mind are...

Lamination, narrow seam technology with high stitch counts and PU coated water resistant zips (I think patented).

I'm also pretty sure that helmet compatible hoods, one handed and side adjusters originated there too, along with hybrids.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I bought one at the same time. Superb jacket. Incredible durability.

In reply to Goucho:
Looking around towns I often get the impression that much expensive branded outdoor kit is worn in urban environments only (I'm not suggesting this applies to anyone on here). When I did my 1st aid training the instructor was wearing arcteryx trousers and jacket - a case of over kill surely?

Its a bit like all the lads - and not a few of the lasses - who around my smallish town appear to relish wearing outdoor jackets (always black) and nearly always branded 'North Face' (if my memory is correct).

All over priced and under used.

My favourite bit of kit is my second hand, army issue, goretex camouflage jacket. Cost me £25. Not trendy enough to wear around town but tough as old boots and is as waterproof as any more expensive model. Oh, and it has a map pocket which will take a OS map. Something posh designer jackets don't always have.

In reply to Dave Perry:


'Ryx gives out Proforms to instructors...

In reply to jon:


I know somebody like that in an Arcteryx jacket. Hmmn.

In reply to BnB:


Shortly after posting this I asked my wife for verification. She confirmed that without a shadow of a doubt, Arcteryx quality had directly added to my shag count. And from the glint in her eye, I was reminded that "adventurous" takes many forms.

In reply to Dave Perry:

It's even worse in Courmayeur. The posing and designer ski clothing is off the scale, and Arteryx is making big inroads into the Apres Ski scene. In fact the quickest way to become a social outcast is to be caught wearing Dare2B gear

Courmayeur is Mrs G's home town, and she's an ex pro skier, was a member of the Italian national team back in her teens, and still coaches occasionally. She often has to be physically restrained to prevent her taking the piss out of all the posers - though she makes up for it by taking the piss out of me and my 'bullshit climbing gear fetish' as she calls it.

She regularly pops out for a quick couple of hours on the slopes wearing a pair of 20 year old Salmon boots, 30 year old Fischer skis, a pair of track suit bottoms and an old wooly sweater, deliberately to wind up all the dressed to kill brigade. I've actually seen her literally wear a tea cozy and a pair of oven mitts on one occasion.

In reply to Dave Perry:


GoreTex? When I were a lad, we used to dream of having GoreTex...

In reply to Goucho:


Surely that's just posing of another fashion?

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

T5 but no approach shoes? Hmmmmmm. Car thief. Hope you phoned the police.

It'll have been stolen to order. Prestige car you see. Probably.

In reply to HeMa:

If Beelzebub himself skied, he'd be in Bognor. Although maybe with a Spyder baselayer early in the season. It truly is Satan's skiwear.

Actually here is footage of him in the Tyrol somewhere -

youtube.com/watch?v=vBLxzv17zc8&

In reply to FreeHeelSki:

Quality old school technique there. Not a carve in sight.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Me too - My 1st 'water-proof' outdoor jacket was made of rubberised cotton in a USA military style! It also had a think quilted lining. Which was good at absorbing the condensation.

In reply to Dorchester:

Talking of the urban coat. Rohan do their own three layer waterproof city Mac at under£250. Comes with a five year guarantee on the proofing which unless things have changed with Goretex is far better than their own waterproof guarantee.

In reply to Goucho:
Not the same jacket, But my first bit of Arcteryx I bought made me feel so giddy I made a youtube video on it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_B15DRHtJ9A&t=

God only knows what a £500 jacket makes you feel like, OR CLIMB LIKE!!! More power! lol

In reply to FreeHeelSki:



Brilliant! He's in a 30 year time warp!

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Style!

CB

In reply to jon:

Hansi Hinterseer is a cancer on German televsion, his idiotic pseudo folk music shows pop up on every channel like a rash.
While his music may be shit, he actually CAN shi, he actually was world champion at some point, I believe in downhill or giant slaloms.

Now for the worst bit of overpriced garbage, don´t look further than Kjus (after the Norwegian skier): The Kjus superfast undies, that will be €1000, thank you very much. Seriously, skiing jackets for several thousand Euros?

CB

In reply to cb294:

He's in good nick for 62 too.