UKC

Over the year there have been a few news articles on UKC about climbing charities abroad yet it strikes me that there is a lot of potential for work to be done in the UK. Climbing, at least from my experience, appears to have very little diversity in terms of ethnicity or social class. I recognise that it's not a cheap activity to get into but with the rise of indoor bouldering it is becoming more affordable for those who lack the means to spend large amounts of money on their hobby. A wall near me in Sheffield is a prime example of a wall that is positioned in a very diverse area in terms of income and ethnicity, there seems to be little evidence of that diversity inside. It would also seem from recent debates on the forums that climbing would really benefit from having more diversity in the community. It is much easier to understand and have a constructive conversation about the complex reality of different beliefs if you can actually have a face to face conversion with people that hold them.

Have I simply missed examples of this kind of work happening? Are there group and programmes that UKC could feature in the future doing work in this area? As someone who has previously helped to run a climbing club and walking group at a very diverse school whose outdoor clubs did not reflect the make-up of the school I know that this kind of work is not easy or straightforward and those that do it deserve to be celebrated.

In reply to sheelba:

Urban Uprising are a group that I'm aware of from their adverts & events in TCA Glasgow

http://www.urbanuprising.co.uk/

In reply to sheelba:
Sorry to be excessively negative but unless climbing featuring in the Olympics starts to feed multiples of tens of millions into the sport in the UK, then I don't see things changing much. Very much like swimming, indoor climbing is intrinsically expensive and unlike swimming (at least historically) nearly all decent climbing walls are commercial facilities. I can't see it ever being anything other than rather biased towards the middle classes.

Looking at the wider picture, sports like swimming that were previously very accessible via schools and local authority facilities are suffering massively due to austerity. Local education authority provision of outdoor education has also suffered from massive cuts with many outdoor centres having closed or been sold off. The coalition government also decimated sports provisions in schools, abolishing ringfenced funding for the national School Sport Partnerships (SSPs) and ending the recommendation for two hours of PE in schools each week. Therefore, there are serious wider problems with current and future UK sports provision. If local communities, organisations and individuals are failing to protect existing access to other sports then improving access to climbing is even more of an uphill battle.

Also, given that the fairly awkward current child protection rules for climbing clubs (especially as regards mixed groups of adults and teenagers on trips) are likely to get even stricter with the eventual fallout from the child abuse inquiries into football and other sports I can't see traditional climbing clubs ever being a viable vehicle for widening participation outdoors on a large scale.

Until the Government makes a major U-turn with regards to funding for sport in schools I don't think much will change and if anything, things look like getting worse in the years ahead.

That said I applaud any volunteers trying to promote climbing, especially in less affluent areas, and wish them every success.

Finally, fingers crossed Shauna wins gold in Tokyo, as that's probably the only way to generate significant additional investment in climbing in the short to medium term.

In reply to sheelba:

It's very odd just how monochromatic climbing is. I have noticed worldwide there are remarkably few black climbers. Asians took quite a long time to get into the sport, but generally have an extremely good physique for climbing and make superb climbers.

In reply to sheelba:

Interesting and I would think the best way in would be some kind of introduction. I think schools in Sheffield have regular schools groups at indoor walls (and presumably local crags too) so some local kids do get to try out climbing. It would be interesting to know what percentage.

Climbing is not that expensive for outdoors, unless you need to travel a long way. Indoors it's pricey unless you have some kind of membership.

Globally climbing is now much more diverse and something that is changing all the time. The number of countries now with active climbers is staggering. The Japanese and Koreans seem to have strong climbing cultures and some very strong climbers within that. China seems to host more world cups now than Britain and America combined.

I would imagine that culture is perhaps the biggest barrier more than race. Climbing seems to be far more of a middle class activity than it used to be but that's much less noticeable than racial differences.

In reply to sheelba:

I know this is a bit of an asshole response..But.. Does it even really matter? What bothers you about this? Put your thoughts and energy into enjoying your sport rather than worrying about "diversifying" it. Life is short my friend

In reply to sheelba:

Why should people be celebrated for charitable attempts to increase diversity in climbing?

Sorry to be rude, but you sound quite patronising.

In reply to elliott92:
Don't you believe in trying to give others the opportunity to try the things you enjoy too?
Do you think everyone should just spend their lives enjoying what they have and let others worry about themselves?

In reply to Si dH:


What leads you to believe that lack of opportunity has very much to do with it?

In reply to elliott92:

Because other than simply the fact that I believe it is the right thing to do studies in the psychology of happiness show again and again that the road to fufillment in life is in caring for the well-being of others. This is not something that is separate from my enjoyment of climbing it is a key part of it. Personally, having done a lot of volunteer work and work with disadvantaged children that are few things in life more enjoyable than sharing your passion for something with people that otherwise wouldn't experience it. I recommend you give it a try I find it hard to believe that anyone wouldn't enjoy it.

In reply to sheelba:


In what ways was it not easy or straightforward?

I'm not disputing the statement, just curious as to your perception of the reasons.

In reply to Dogwatch:

That's what this conversation is about - giving people the opportunity to do or try something (in this case, climbing) that they otherwise wouldn't have.

Edit: if it needs spelling out, that would ultimately undoubtedly lead to some % of those people taking up the sport, hence giving increased diversification of some form. But the diversification isn't necessarily the ultimate aim, it's simply the measurable result of the increased opportunities having been given (that being the aim.)

In reply to Dogwatch:

I also don't understand why you or the other bloke up the thread wouldn't want these people to have the opportunity - why be a nay-sayer when people are trying to encourage it? Do you see a downside? I am genuinely mystified.

In reply to Si dH:


The thread title is "Climbing as a monochromatic activity". So the mealy-mouthed adjective means climbers in the UK are overwhelmingly white, which is true. You are then making an assumption that this is about opportunity. That, in my opinion, is highly questionable. Historically, white working-class climbers and climbers with scant resources made their own opportunities to get out into the hills. Today, you will find large numbers of eastern Europeans walking, picnicking and generally enjoying themselves in groups in the outdoors. At least some of those will be scraping a living on minimum wage, yet they create the opportunity to get outdoors. So why the difference?

In reply to Dogwatch:
Because is there was equality of opportunity there would be more diversity in climbing. People from low socio-economic backgrounds are not somehow inherently less likely to enjoy climbing than people from middle-class backgrounds, unless there is some kind of genetic disposition at work.

In response to your next post as I see it there are two issues but there may be more:

Cost - this is the probably primary issue. The climbing club we ran had to charge so those who can afford it more easily are more likely to go. in terms of the walking club and DofE it involves a lot of kit buying extra which is expensive.

Socio-cultural factors - the people like me don't do things like that. This is a important problem in oxbridge university admissions from those of disadvantaged backgrounds. This are environments were you can feel that everyone else is different to you. You can feel uncomfortable, out of place very easily, like you don't know what to do. I guess a good parallel is starting a new job. it's stressful and makes you nervous because it is an environment you are not yet comfortable in, however if your new colleagues work to make you feel welcome you can easily come to feel comfortable and at home. I of course take a lot of confidence though to take that opportunity in the first place and put yourself in a situation where you feel very out-of-place and uncomfortable just as it takes confidence to change jobs.

In response to your latest offering I a lot of diversity out in the hills walking but less so in climbing.

In reply to Dogwatch:
To me the answer to your question, which I think is "why don't some cultures create their own opportunities to enjoy the outdoors as much as others?" does not change anything about the separate question "why should we not seek to increase the opportunities for all people to enjoy the outdoors, especially those who don't otherwise get it?", which is basically what the thread is asking/encouraging.

For what it's worth I suspect the answer tp your queation is that those Eastern Europeans you mention did have the opportunity to enjoy the outdoors when they were younger and hence already know they enjoy it, so as adults they want to make the effort. If you grow up on an inner city estate and never see a crag or a moor then you are unlikely to actively make opportunities for your kids to do so.

Edit: this is also a different question from being specifically about climbing as sheelba has pointed out.

In reply to Si dH:


Well, no. Go back to the first post and the title of the thread. It is not about "how do we get the disadvantaged out climbing". It is specifically about the uncomfortable question of race.

In reply to sheelba:


This explains better what I find uncomfortable about your first post.

I was a Scout leader for many years. I enjoyed it a lot. That's why I did it. But the message in your first post is that people should be celebrated for helping the poor kids or the black kids experience something that only is really for the rich white kids is something I find uncomfortable.

In reply to sheelba:

This post makes more sense to me, I'm not disagreeing with everything you say.


There was a thread a while back which descended into arguments about how football clubs for kids was more expensive than climbing. As someone already said above this is where Scouts, cadets and schools etc come in.


Part of the "people like me don't do things like that" is choice.

Personally I'd like to see swimming tackled more urgently than climbing, just for safety reasons. Another thing that schools can't afford to do anymore

In reply to sheelba:

I'm lucky in the respect I have friends from a few nationalities and cultures. I have black friends and took a couple onto a bouldering wall. Whilst they enjoyed the social aspect, they didn't care for the climbing and pretty much hated the outdoors (Blencathra hike). I'm not sure if this is a cultural difference or just the fact they didn't care for it. It is rare, not never, you see black people in the hills and mountains and I've no idea why this is.

In reply to sheelba:


"Latest offering". That's remarkably patronising.

I do not see a lot of diversity in race amongst those out walking. For example, woods local to me contain play areas and are therefore popular with family groups with young children, the area far from exclusively white yet I don't ever recall seeing a non-white family there.

In reply to sheelba:

I think we should recognise that different ethnic groups have different attitudes to leisure activities and perhaps not try to impose "our" perceptions of what is of value. I don't think we should worry over-much if some activities are more attractive to particular ethnic groups.

Our club is, I hope, welcoming to all who make the effort to come to our beginners/newcomers sessions at the local wall. Anyone googling Ipswich + Climbing will find us quickly, and many do. Several east Europeans have become active members over the years plus a sprinkling of other ethnic minorities (Chinese, Afro-Carribean) , probably not in proportion to their representation in the local population. It not something I'm very worried about though. What would worry me is if anyone from a non-white British background felt they were being made unwelcome because of their ethnicity. I honestly don't think that's the case.

Where I agree is that all children should have the opportunity to experience a wide variety of outdoor activities while at school. I'm retired now, but part of my work as a schools' adviser in outdoor education was to encourage just this. I still chair a charitable trust that runs an outdoor education centre. Give young people the chance to experience the activities, and see the benefits of participation, but then let them choose which, if any, they want to pursue as a life-long interest.

Martin

In reply to sheelba:

Socially and financially disadvantaged people have been getting into climbing for decades. In fact a great many of the world's greatest climbers came from decidly working class and poor background's.

However as far as ethnic diversity in climbing goes, is there a possibility that climbing is one of those sports that certain ethicities are just not into?

In reply to elliott92:
https://resistmedia.org/2016/12/4-ways-white-person-can-reduce-complicity-w...

In reply to sheelba:

I think 'social-cultural' factors play more of a part than cost. I don't know if there is a primary reason for this or just that historically climbing has not been popular with ethnic minority groups and therefore has stayed that way, but in any case the main barrier to me nowadays seems just that it is so overwhelmingly white. I know I would almost certainly feel uncomfortable if just about everyone else there was different to me and anyone who says otherwise is either very confident in unfamiliar environments or is kidding themselves. It's a bit of a catch 22 - numbers will only grow once past a certain level but (outside of London?) that initial level is not attainable.

So the only solution to the above does seem to have initiatives to get more ethic minority groups climbing, thus gradually encouraging more to take the same path.

In reply to sheelba:

"Diversity" should be enforced, nay forced, everywhere and in every activity, whether the recipients like it or not, otherwise, middle class white kids will feel guilty. Check your privilege.

In reply to purkle:

What stupid thing to post. I disagree with that article to the core. Take your head out of your ass