UKC

So i read a posting the other day about someone trying to buy a portaledge from Needle sports with a BMC card and being refused the 10% discount on the item due to the very low margins on the item at the time there is no mention of this item being excluded from the discount.
Now I live local and have shopped in Needle sports for years but over the years times are changing and I for one like these small independent shops do not have pots of gold so every penny I can save is great to me.

Take today Im after a new waterproof jacket a smock light weight yet has to be waterproof and multi functional as I climb run and MTB so not a easy task but the Montane spine pull size large fits the bill i would even buy the jacket version if I could get at the right price cheapest in Keswick i £250 cotswold and GF same price a quick search on the web and I can get it for £179 thats a massive £70 saving for me I certainly don't have that sort of money to throw at my local shop i will admit most of my outdoor clothing is now bought online I would hazard a guess that I saved enough this year to pay for a short break away next year which is great for me.

In reply to neil0968:


Horses for courses...each to their own....etc.
But if you're buying £180 lightweight smocks then you're probably not needing to save 'every penny' quite as much as you imply.

In reply to Y Gribin:

well my last one lasted 5 years paid £200 for my last one £40 a year tried using cheaper gear/clothing and it just not last given the abuse it has to stand up and in the scheme of goretex products £180 is not bad given some of the pro shell ones are going for £300-£600

In reply to neil0968:

I'll vary where I'll go depending on what I'm after:
Guidebooks - I'll go to Outside/ V12/ Needlesports as I like to encourage them having a stock of guidebooks covering a wide range of areas, also nice to look at a guidebook before buying it to figure out if it's useable.
Shoes/ Boots I haven't tried before - I'll find a shop which has the boot/ shoe I want to try (preferably a good range too in case the original one doesn't fit), go and try on the shoes and if they fit me buy them in the shop, if not take advice until I find something I like, if I'm not satisfied with anything the shop has I'll go elsewhere.
Shoes I've had before - Buy them from wherever's cheapest in the same size, by coincidence the same shop I originally tried them on in as they seem to be the only place in the UK which still stock Moccasyms.
Shiny bits - Look at the website for a few independents (as for guidebooks plus a few others), or just go to a convenient gear shop, V12 and Dick's Climbing seem to get most of this business from me for some reason.
Ropes - Needlesports or Begfreunde as both do good prices as I don't need the advice about ropes and they deteriorate slowly.
Clothes - Rab Factory shop/ sportspursuit, I seem to put holes in things quickly and do repair them but I know that I will get a reliably good price from these two if suitable clothing is available.

Could I use my local independents more? Yes
Will I? No, they're an hour and a bit's drive away, I more regularly go somewhere close to V12/ Needlesports than Outside so use them instead.

As long as you don't actively screw over shops by going in, taking two hours of staff time trying on every shoe in the shop and then going and buying the shoe online (equally going in and trying on jackets to then buy online is also a no no) I don't really see an issue.

In reply to neil0968:

Some of the online price are due to a large price drops, you get the same between tescos and asda in any given week, cornflakes are running at half price. Cotswold do aprice match.

I do like to use physical shops as you can go in an try things on, so i like to buy from them as well, even if its a little extra. If its alot more i am forced to go online.

The other thing about online is the choice, if there are 30 manufacturers with 10 lines of 10 designs, thats 3000 items, possibly 300 variaties of sleeping bag

In reply to neil0968:

I end up getting most things from Needle Sports, mostly because they're just quite good as aposed to any notion of somehow supporting independents. They've got a good range, generally everything is in stock, returns are easy and the website is easy to navigate and informative. I find that they're cheaper than a lot of online places for certain things. They were selling the helium cams for about £25 if I remember correctly and they always seem to have ropes on good deals.

For things like fancy jackets they're probably more expensive than big retailers, the margins on branded stuff is so rubbish there's not much smaller retailers can do and the big boys can afford to sell last years stuff at a loss to clear it. I used to work in a shop that sold paramo and it was the most pointless exercise in retail, tiny margins, tens of thousands of pounds in stock just to be able to stock about 4 jackets in two genders and a few trousers in all size ranges and then people could buy it cheaper from paramo directly and get a voucher for sending their old jacket back to them as well. And then they'd vary the colour scheme slightly and all your products were old seasons stock. People complain about prices of jackets but in reality most retailers are making sod all on high end branded jackets. They're fashion items now and the retail rules of the fashion industry apply which don't suit small outdoor businesses well at all.

Anyway, NS might have some jackets at higher prices than you can find discounted online but for a lot of everyday things they're quite competitve. Things like individual bits of gear, the odd nut replacement, new ice picks, new rope, chalk, footwear, guidebooks etc. pretty much the same price as you'd get anywhere. For things like jackets I always head to ebay anyway, my 2nd hand gtx jacket is in it's 10th year and still going strong, think it was £80. It's going to be almost exclusively used outside so it's going to get wrecked and covered in duct tape anyway no point in spending over a hundred. You'd buy a used defender for towing a horse box across a muddy field not a brand new range rover so why buy a nice jacket if you're going to thrutch your way up a chimney or end up on your ass covered in mud after slipping off the bike.

In reply to neil0968:



TBF the page that explains the discounts offered has always stated that some low margin items are not included.

In reply to neil0968:

I would prefer to 'shop local' but there are limits. I don't spend hours in a local shop and then buy the product on-line. I usually know what I want and may even take a quick look in a local store. If it is close to the on-line price I buy instore. When there are £50 differences in a £200 item, then the cheapest gets it. Trying to get the BMC discount locally is becoming quite hard. They say yes, ring up the product and when you check the receipt and the discount is missing they do the 'Ooops, sorry' bit and sort it. Always check your receipt as this is becoming a standard. Three people in a row, recently.
On top of this there is the attitude of the 'local shop' One in particular is keen to take your money, but does not give the 'customer service' they use as a selling point. Try taking faulty goods back and they are not interested, unless you do it on a busy day and create a fuss (hate having to do this!) when they make all the right noises, and then ignore e-mails and put you off on the phone. Returned to manufacturer etc when you know it is still in the back of the shop, because earlier in the call they have said as much. As this is the local shop who stocks the manufacturers I like to use it means that most of my stuff is now bought on-line.
'Local shops' tell us they offer better service, but that is not how it appears to be. If they want to charge more the service has to match the, often inflated, higher prices. That does not appear to be happening.

In reply to johncook:
Well that's the make or break isn't it. If your shop is not offering the right amount of service it then it can be a real deal breaker.

On the flip side. Demanding people often want warranties dealt with on the spot but when it may be a case of mis-use or wear or tear then they are within their rights to take time to send it back.

Working in a shop is nothing like working in an office and if systems and process do not support the customer then it's REALLY easy to misplace notes and the inbox quickly builds up if not managed. Imagine standing rather than sitting at your desk, with your boss telling you to get out from behind your desk, then once dealing with someone there's someone else standing waiting for attention. You want someone professional and knowledgable, in a shop with a good range and quality but you want to pay peanuts. No wonder shop staff are on minimal wages. All it takes is one minamum paid staff with no formal training to misplace a note which leads to you having ring them and eventually bemoan the bad service on a forum. That same staff member could have inspired a beginner climber, spent time to get them right shoes and told them some great climbs to go try. It's a complex picture and there is no easy answer.


Something has got to give somewhere. As customers I would endorse not taking the piss, and take the time to form a bond with your local shop. You might not buy everything off them but at least give them the chance.

A quick note on prices. They are not 'inflated' but rather indenpendants are trying to sell at the SRP. Online retailers are DISCOUNTING the SRP and also often inflate it to make the deal look better.

In reply to neil0968:

Over the years I have bought quite a bit of gear on line from Banana Fingers as their prices are very good, as they have a shop I do not have a problem with this even though it is not local to me.

In reply to Lucas:
I have worked retail for many years, and found customer service is the make or break.
I have never taken back anything that is fair wear and tear. I have had stuff eg stitching, break first time out, taken it back to shop where it has been 'put in the back' and then I was told that the manufacturer says it is fair wear and tear! On contacting the manufacturer the said they had never seen it, contacted the shop and a new product was supplied but only after I pressed the store who admitted they had already been refunded by the manf.
SRP is suggested retail price, sometimes called MRP, manufacturers recommended price. Neither is contractually set in stone. The supplier buys from a manufacturer and adds on their margin. They sell at the best price they can get. Fair enough, but they have to accept competition. If they get greedy, or don't offer service then they lose.
I would prefer to shop local, but, just like the shop, I have to manage my resources.
Taking it further, the same shop sold an absolute beginner, who said he was a beginner and looking for his first pair of shoes, a pair of high end rock shoes, told him he needed them two sizes less than his normal shoes and took £120 off him. (His fault, if couldn't get the shoes on they pressed him to take. He should have refused to buy.) I went back with him and kicked up a huge fuss and, eventually suggested the salesperson get this shoe, two sizes below their size and show us how to put it on and then stand up! Eventually a 'higher up' appeared, recognised me and remembered what they had done to me previously and organised the purchase price be returned. We then went elsewhere and bought suitable shoes in a tight but suitable size.
Fairly consistent poor service. The only other nearby outdoor shop does not stock enough stuff from the manufacturers I prefer to warrant regular trade.

In reply to neil0968:

Sorry, but Cotswold outdoors is not a LOCAL shop. It is a chain, and loop holes should be used to pricematch/save money.

Dicks climbing on the other hand, IS local, and is full retail, and no haggling for me personally.
Which is the ship I like to run.