/ Citizen Aid

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Murderous_Crow - on 04 Jan 2017

This is good:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38495234

It's a free quick reference outlining safety and first aid priorities in a terrorism situation, describing lifesaving interventions for untrained people. Also worth a look for climbers and outdoorsy types I'd think.

http://citizenaid.org/

Good mythbusting on use of tourniquets too:

http://citizenaid.org/faqs/

Available as an app on Android and Apple app stores.
Post edited at 09:28
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spenser - on 04 Jan 2017
In reply to Murderous_Crow:
A paramedic led me to believe that anyone who wasn't as qualified as a paramedic had no business applying a tourniquet as they couldn't judge the point at which one was required correctly, I didn't think there was any doubt about their efficacy given that soldiers were wearing them on patrol in Afghanistan due to the high IED risk.
Anything which improves the general public's awareness of first aid procedures is however a good thing, nothing like being the only first aider at hand to focus your mind in the event of a serious injury...
marsbar - on 04 Jan 2017
In reply to spenser:

I think new guidance has come out, still requires training, but more open to their use in situations like a terrorist attack where the number of casualties might be too great to be able to apply direct pressure.

http://www.highpeakfirstaid.co.uk/product/celox-and-tourniquet-training/
spenser - on 04 Jan 2017
In reply to marsbar:

Hmm, interesting, certainly makes sense for mass casualty type things. Not sure I'd be able to convince work to let me go on it though, at the point where either of those are needed someone's already been run over by a train in my line of work. It was about 8 years ago said paramedic told me about Tourniquets so it is entirely possible that guidance has changed.
captain paranoia - on 05 Jan 2017
In reply to spenser:

We were taught the use of tourniquets and haemostatic dressings in a recent refresher for outdoor first aid.

Based on experience of devices used in various recent combat theatres such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

Everyone needs first aid training, not just for the threat of terrorism, which is a much lower likelihood than more 'natural' injuries.
nufkin - on 05 Jan 2017
In reply to spenser:

> It was about 8 years ago said paramedic told me about Tourniquets so it is entirely possible that guidance has changed

I'd have thought that if someone's arm's off it's almost impossible to over-tighten the tourniquet .
For First Aid as a whole more generally, the message I've carried away from my courses is that it's not so much a question of what specific action you must or mustn't do for a scenario, rather will what can do help or make things worse; if someone's heart has stopped, say, there's not a lot you can do that would be worse than nothing
Ridge - on 06 Jan 2017
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

How am I going to open an App on my phone if I'm busy using my mobile to film the carnage to put on youtube?
Bootrock on 06 Jan 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:
Just because they taught you it. Doesn't mean it's free reign.

http://www.realfirstaid.co.uk/mediccourses/

"If you have completed a short course which has included these a few weeks, months or years ago and practiced these skills once or twice on a mannequin, are you the person to provide these skills?

The tragic reality is that due to the nature of their injuries some casualties will die, despite the best care available to them and regardless of when it is administered.

A worse reality would be that someone died because of the care they received; the wrong care from the wrong person. If you are providing the care, you are responsible. It is that simple. Having attended a course and armed with a well stocked medic bag there may well be a temptation to apply skills you are neither confident or competent in, whether it is warranted or not."

Troops in Afghanistan were usually all trained to team medic standard. That's not your average FAW course. (It could we have been unit specific though). Plus there's a bit of a difference with encountering injuries on patrol in the Middle East, and having a mishap down the woods when walking the dog in the UK.

I am all for everyone being Heart Start. First Aid and CPR trained but sometimes companies and courses take it too far and don't offer much information on what they are teaching. Just firing out the Gucci techniques and gear.
Post edited at 08:40
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Bootrock on 06 Jan 2017
In reply to spenser:

> A paramedic led me to believe that anyone who wasn't as qualified as a paramedic had no business applying a tourniquet as they couldn't judge the point at which one was required correctly, I didn't think there was any doubt about their efficacy given that soldiers were wearing them on patrol in Afghanistan due to the high IED risk.

Depends entirely on the situation but I would agree with said paramedic. They are useful bits of kit, but have some points to consider before, during and after use. Plus there was a recall on certain makes of CAT TQs after fake ones were found to break and be ineffective, and ones bought from appropriate services should be used.
The Services will have correct ones, but little Johnny do gooder who bought one on eBay And has had a 10minute YouTube teach him how to use it? No thanks.

> Anything which improves the general public's awareness of first aid procedures is however a good thing, nothing like being the only first aider at hand to focus your mind in the event of a serious injury...

Agree whole heartedly. But at the same time, with a terrorist incident, people should know when to leave the area and stop making it difficult for the professionals to do their job.

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annieman - on 06 Jan 2017
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

The ERC guidelines were amended in October 2015. HSE has now released the following "The HSE advises that when carrying out a first aid needs assessment, employers who identify a specific risk of life-threatening bleeding (e.g. those working in arboriculture, construction, glass work, agriculture or those who use dangerous machinery) should consider providing tourniquets and haemostatic dressings and ensure that their workplace first aiders are trained in their use."

So if your Industry is high risk then specific training and equipment should be sought.

However, the app, subject of this topic, is providing options for those who are caught up in an Mass Casualty incident. If they are bleeding significantly and you do nothing then they will likely die. If you do something, direct pressure or improvised tourniquet, then they may survive. If it is safe then do something.

Evidence from 7/7, Boston Marathon, Bataclan Paris that improvised Tourniquets have saved lives.
captain paranoia - on 06 Jan 2017
In reply to Bootrock:

> Just because they taught you it. Doesn't mean it's free reign.

Who said anything about it being free rein?

The tuition included consideration of when to apply it, as well as how. Course provided by a military reservist medic.
Bootrock on 06 Jan 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Who said anything about it being free rein?
Read my link.

> The tuition included consideration of when to apply it, as well as how. Course provided by a military reservist medic.

I don't care who they were. Or what they do part time (full time banging on about it, I bet!)
Read the link I provided. Was it a MIRA course, if so fair enough. If it was one of these "outdoor" first aid course I would imagine it could possibly be out with their course remit, and inappropriate to teach.

Combat Medicine and First Aid are two separate things. What one would be taught for Casualty Care Under Fire might not be appropriate for First aid in the woods.


Again read my link.

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captain paranoia - on 07 Jan 2017
In reply to Bootrock:

I read it (and it's the comment of a commercial instruction provider, rather than a regulatory body). I don't consider myself to be a medic, in either the formal MD, or informal military terms.

Have you read the 2015 ERC guidelines on what constitutes treatment considered to be first aid (and which should thus be taught to, and potentially used, where appropriate, by first aiders)?

http://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(15)00343-3/abstract
Post edited at 12:35
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marsbar - on 07 Jan 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

Wow that article could use some paragraphs. I find it difficult to read it all crammed in like that.
Bootrock on 07 Jan 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

Yea I have done.

And Combat Medicine is a different ball game to First Aid. Even if you stick "outdoors" in front of it.


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captain paranoia - on 07 Jan 2017
In reply to Bootrock:

But we're not talking about combat medicine; we're talking about first aid. And the ERC say tourniquets and haemostatic dressings are first aid, and should be taught to and used by first aiders.

If you disagree with what is essentially the governing body for first aid, go take it up with them
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captain paranoia - on 07 Jan 2017
In reply to marsbar:

Yes, I know. No idea why it's so badly formatted.

I can only think that it's because it's an Elsevier journal, and access is controlled, and we're only seeing a crappy version of it. If you want the properly formatted version, you probably have to pay for it.

You don't seem to be able to download or, and the PDF is incomplete. The 'show full text's version at least gives the full text.
Post edited at 13:58
Bootrock on 07 Jan 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> But we're not talking about combat medicine; we're talking about first aid. And the ERC say tourniquets and haemostatic dressings are first aid, and should be taught to and used by first aiders.

You stated that a reservist medic taught the course.
I can't think of a First Aid course that involves TQs and Haemostatics other than FPOS/MIRA type courses.

> If you disagree with what is essentially the governing body for first aid, go take it up with them.

I was merely stating that I agreed with the Paramedic in questions and that there could be adverse effects from incorrect use of Haemostatics and TQs, and as the link States, although the some courses may teach it, you might not be in a position to administer such techniques. I provided a link that explains it a lot better.







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captain paranoia - on 07 Jan 2017
In reply to Bootrock:

> You stated that a reservist medic taught the course.

And what do you think he does in his civilian life? Among other things, an EMT.

Yes, of course there are potential problems associated with the use of tourniquets. Then again, death is a possible side effect of not employing them appropriately.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=first+aid+course+tourniquet
Post edited at 20:13
Bootrock on 07 Jan 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> And what do you think he does in his civilian life? Among other things, an EMT.

We don't have EMTs in the UK mate... But that's me being pedantic.

> Yes, of course there are potential problems associated with the use of tourniquets. Then again, death is a possible side effect of not employing them appropriately.

And Haemostatics, which require considerations as well. The application can vary too, and certain products shouldn't be used and can be dangerous to the ones helping if used incorrectly.

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captain paranoia - on 07 Jan 2017
captain paranoia - on 07 Jan 2017
In reply to Bootrock:

ps. I really don't know what your problem is. Yes, I'm aware that both techniques pose difficulties, and need care in application. But I've shown that latest best practice guidelines suggest they are considered beneficial for application by suitably trained first aiders.

Is it that you feel superior because you have combat medic training, and look down on 'new' first aiders, in the same way you seem to look down on reservists?

If so, there are plenty of people here who are far more qualified than you.

Or is it just that you're a trolling cock (as usual), looking to pick a pointless fight?
Post edited at 23:01
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captain paranoia - on 08 Jan 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

> and look down on 'new' first aiders

That should read 'mere' first aiders.
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Bootrock on 08 Jan 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:
I don't have a problem. Just my 2 pence worth. And stating I agreed with the paramedic someone mentioned further up. We can agree to disagree.
Post edited at 09:02
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