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Rest times when training max strength

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 timjamesmedley 04 Jan 2017
Spurred on by the below thread:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=655981

How long do people rest when training max strength/power (limit bouldering) on boulder problems?

Is it best to wait 3-5 mins between good attempts or do people shorten the rest time to work individual moves then rest properly for good goes towards the end?

Am I waisting energy having lots of initial goes with only 1/2 minutes rest for a whole session and should i be sitting on my arse for 3-5 minutes between every go if I want to make maximum strength gains?

This would mean that in a 'strength seasion' lasting about 2hrs I would only make around 35 attempts at problems.

This is a general question but I'm specifically bouldering around v6 in a good few goes if that helps with some answers.

Thanks for any input!
 MischaHY 04 Jan 2017
In reply to timjamesmedley:

This might sound odd but in my experience you'll make fewer gains on boulders at your limit while repetitively trying them as opposed to performing consistently slightly below your limit. For example, completing 1-2 moves at 100% of max is less effective than completing 5-6 moves at 80% of max.

Rough guide for this is a 6 move problem on a board where you can do all of the moves fairly easily within the first couple of goes but have to try hard in order to link them. Rest about 3-4 minutes in between reps - if you can do 6+ reps with less rest than that then it's too easy. Anything with sub 2 minutes rest is power endurance and won't train maximal power.

Finish the session when you feel tired but still have some left in the tank if you want the best power gains. Steep boards (35º-50º) will train muscles more whilst lower angle boards (20º-30º) will train finger strength more.

Power training is quality not quantity and you'll get a lot more out of short consistent sessions than you will from a 5 hour burn out (plus you'll be way less likely to get injured.)

Keep at it!
 zv 04 Jan 2017
In reply to timjamesmedley:

It varies I guess, however 3-5 minutes sounds about right. Maybe even more if the problem is really hard.

To be able to train maximum strength you need to pulling at your hardest which is only possible if you are at your freshest.

To be honest 35 attempts for a max. strength session sounds almost too much especially if talking about overhanging boulders. It's quality rather than quantity when it comes to strength training.

It maybe better to spend 20 max strength attempts and spend the rest of the session focusing on core/flexibility/upper body strength or any other weak links you might have.
 Si dH 04 Jan 2017
In reply to MischaHY:

> This might sound odd but in my experience you'll make fewer gains on boulders at your limit while repetitively trying them as opposed to performing consistently slightly below your limit. For example, completing 1-2 moves at 100% of max is less effective than completing 5-6 moves at 80% of max.

I don't agree with this - I've found the exact opposite. Anecdotal of course.

> Rough guide for this is a 6 move problem on a board where you can do all of the moves fairly easily within the first couple of goes but have to try hard in order to link them. Rest about 3-4 minutes in between reps - if you can do 6+ reps with less rest than that then it's too easy. Anything with sub 2 minutes rest is power endurance and won't train maximal power.

None of this is training max strength as well as you could.

> Finish the session when you feel tired but still have some left in the tank if you want the best power gains. Steep boards (35º-50º) will train muscles more whilst lower angle boards (20º-30º) will train finger strength more.

> Power training is quality not quantity and you'll get a lot more out of short consistent sessions than you will from a 5 hour burn out (plus you'll be way less likely to get injured.)

> Keep at it!

 Si dH 04 Jan 2017
In reply to timjamesmedley:
> Spurred on by the below thread:


> How long do people rest when training max strength/power (limit bouldering) on boulder problems?

> Is it best to wait 3-5 mins between good attempts or do people shorten the rest time to work individual moves then rest properly for good goes towards the end?

For me, once you have played a bit and worked out how you want to try/do the moves, then yes, 3-5 minutes.

> Am I waisting energy having lots of initial goes with only 1/2 minutes rest for a whole session and should i be sitting on my arse for 3-5 minutes between every go if I want to make maximum strength gains?

Yes.

> This would mean that in a 'strength seasion' lasting about 2hrs I would only make around 35 attempts at problems.

Yes. This is lots.

> This is a general question but I'm specifically bouldering around v6 in a good few goes if that helps with some answers.

> Thanks for any input!

The lightbulb moment for me (which may seem obvious but may not?) was listening to a trainingbeta podcast where it was made clear that if you are at all tired, you are no longer training strength. You should ideally be 100% recovered between each attempt. Obviously this isn't completely feasible, but if you don't rest enough you won't make the best gains.

Anecdotally I've definitely seen my best strength gains by just doing bouldering at my absolute limit outside, when in fact my ret periods were longer still because I was focusing on trying to do the problem.
Post edited at 18:35
In reply to timjamesmedley:

Thanks for the replies, definitely food for thought.

In a way I think the most important piece of info was that it was ok to spend such a large amount of time sat around when 'training'.

I had an incline that after some good consistent time outside (and as mentioned with long rests) I felt bigger increases in strength than I would doing the same inside. Always hard to tell though, it takes bloody ages to get reet strong!
 stp 04 Jan 2017
In reply to timjamesmedley:

I think it's impossible to give an exact answer to that question. The reason is every boulder problem is different. Bouldering is also a very complex activity. There's a lot going on besides just strength. Coordination, timing, body position, body tension etc. So it's not like power lifting where you've done the movement like say a deadlift thousands of time before. Every new problem is a new exercise or a new movement that needs to be learned, usually by a process of trial and error. There's a high skill component as well as the strength component.

I think the best you can do when doing hard bouldering is see how you get on. With practice and observation you can usually intuit your rest times and feel when you're ready to get back on. It's going to be very different if you're falling on the first move of a problem rather than the last move (which will require more rest since you've virtually done the whole thing).

I think you can also intuit when you're done too. If you have a rest day planned for the next day you can finish a bit more fatigued than if not. But generally you don't want to be completely thrashed. 'Finish strong' is good advice. It means you'll recover quicker and also have less risk of injury.
 alx 04 Jan 2017
In reply to timjamesmedley:

If you are going for all out limit, then yes sitting down and lightly stretching or foam rolling for 15mins between tries is legit.

The typical strength/power/hypertrophy/endurance reps, sets, effort and rest is really subjective when it comes to climbing and is much better suited to single reference exercises such as weighted pull-ups or fingerboarding.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strength_training#Realization_of_training_g...

In reply to alx:

I personally find taking relatively long rests most beneficial. My best ever RPs of long routes have been after 1.5-2 hr rests. For hard, limit bouldering, especially on steep training boards where fast movement on bad feet is key, I'll rest 3-5 mins between "working goes" to investigate moves. But my best RPs / attempts at full links need 10-15 min rests. You have to ask yourself, "do I really want to succeed, or am I just here for a work out?". To my mind, you cannot access your deepest reserves of filthy power if tired. More volume at lower intensity is good for power-stamina (an-cap in new parlance?) but forcing new limits needs a more considered approach.
In reply to timjamesmedley:
A really good guideline is consider one to two minutes rest per hard move attempted.

Most of the time at the wall I tend towards the lower end, perhaps resting one minute per move up to generally four minutes. However for serious sport redpoints outdoors I probably tend more towards the full two minutes.

At the wall these days I use a watch and time each rest if working hard links or a whole problem. A fellow boulderer at the local wall last year was timing precise 4 minute rests (he tended to rest too long and not maximize his sessions) and I've now picked up the habit.
 MischaHY 05 Jan 2017
In reply to Si dH:

> I don't agree with this - I've found the exact opposite. Anecdotal of course.

Fair play. I'm still pretty weak so that's possibly why I've made more gains from that - consistency etc.

> None of this is training max strength as well as you could.

What's your best method? I'm assuming fewer and harder moves, but surely the effective gains go down as the likelihood of sticking the move decreases?
 stp 05 Jan 2017
In reply to timjamesmedley:

I think it's worth pointing out that there are multiple goals here and perhaps they're getting confused.

For instance:
1. Getting stronger
2. Becoming a better climber
3. Getting up that boulder problem you're trying on the next go, or by the end of the session.
4. Have fun climbing, socialise with friends at the wall.

1 and 2 are very different from 3 and 4 in that they're both future goals. Completing some specific boulder problems this session might feel very rewarding and give you confidence but these are mental benefits not physical ones. It doesn't follow this is the optimum regime for no. 1, getting stronger.

For no. 1, simply getting stronger, the best route might be to stop climbing altogether and instead follow a modified calisthenics or weighttraining routine with additional fingerboarding/campusing. However this wouldn't help with 2, 3 or 4 at all.

But assuming you want get stronger by climbing it's important to distinguish between a peak performance (such as when you're trying to complete a limit boulder problem) and training. In the former you're trying to conserve as much energy and strength as possible and will want long rests to maximize your chances. In the latter, training, you're almost doing the opposite, trying to fatigue and breakdown muscle tissue as efficiently as possible.

If training is your intention then having longer rests is likely to be counter productive to seeing a strength gain at sometime in the future.

 Si dH 05 Jan 2017
In reply to MischaHY:

> Fair play. I'm still pretty weak so that's possibly why I've made more gains from that - consistency etc.

> What's your best method? I'm assuming fewer and harder moves, but surely the effective gains go down as the likelihood of sticking the move decreases?

For max strength I feel you should be trying the hardest moves you capable of doing. Ie a short sequence for which every move is hard (so they each need some work and refinement before you can stick them) and then try them repeatedly (with good rests) until you are capable of linking them.
I'm not saying this is perfect but it's what I found worked best for me, and I believe it makes sense. It's analagous to wanting to hang with the maximum weight you can on a Fingerboard, whixh also seems to be accepted practice for max strength training now.
 Siderunner 06 Jan 2017

By "max strength" it seems sort of obvious you mean improving the hardest single move you can do.

I reckon this aligns to recruitment training. Often described as neuromuscular.

The way I've trained that in the past is 30-45 minutes of progressivle harder warmup bouldering followed by trying 3 hard probs for 15-30 minutes each. Hard as in I can manage 1-3 moves (about 2 V grades above my in-a-day grade). I do generally muck about a bit with body positions for the first 5-10mins, after that it's 3+ minutes rest between attempts. I make aa major mental effort to visualise pulling as hard as possible and to psyche up for every attempt. Usually after about a total of an hour the efforts diminish slightly and I immediately switch to weights or just a warmdown.

Worked well. I always had a rest day before and either an easy or rest day after. I did it twice a week for a few (2-4) weeks. I reckon that's enough, and at that stage you're better to cycle into a higher volume/ lower intensity training regime. Also it makes sense IMO to do less-aggressive strength training for a block beforehand (weights, fingerboard, onsight standard bouldering) - this is injury risk territory!
Post edited at 10:06
 UKB Shark 06 Jan 2017
In reply to Siderunner:

> By "max strength" it seems sort of obvious you mean improving the hardest single move you can do.

> I reckon this aligns to recruitment training. Often described as neuromuscular.

Worth adding that max strength can obviously also be improved by having bigger muscles. Growing muscles is called hypertrophy. If you only train recruitment the gains tend to be quickly won but then will by definition plateau unless you accompany it with hypertrophy. This includes all-important fingers or rather forearms though hypertrophy in the forearms is harder to spot because the muscles are relatively small. The very keen might consider measuring forearm circumference with a tape measure to monitor progress.

 UKB Shark 06 Jan 2017
In reply to Si dH:

> I'm not saying this is perfect but it's what I found worked best for me, and I believe it makes sense. It's analagous to wanting to hang with the maximum weight you can on a Fingerboard, whixh also seems to be accepted practice for max strength training now.

Hi Si - see above. I fell into the trap of just doing max hangs for too long but I think it needs to cycled with longer hangs or repeaters not just for endurance but also for hypertrophy too to sustain good progress. Its not black and white though. The gains from max hangs aren't just recruitment - the gains I got carried on for too long for that to be the case. However, diminishing gains are to be expected from sticking to any protocol I've come to realise. The top guys and girls do all kinds of weird stuff in order to have a bit of novelty to shock their jaded bodies into some form of response. Its an argument against long term projecting. Bit too late now for me though - maybe not for you

 Si dH 06 Jan 2017
In reply to ukb shark:

> Hi Si - see above. I fell into the trap of just doing max hangs for too long but I think it needs to cycled with longer hangs or repeaters not just for endurance but also for hypertrophy too to sustain good progress. Its not black and white though. The gains from max hangs aren't just recruitment - the gains I got carried on for too long for that to be the case. However, diminishing gains are to be expected from sticking to any protocol I've come to realise. The top guys and girls do all kinds of weird stuff in order to have a bit of novelty to shock their jaded bodies into some form of response. Its an argument against long term projecting. Bit too late now for me though - maybe not for you

Thanks Simon, yes, the logic changing things (new protocol) sometimes definitely makes sense!
 alx 06 Jan 2017
In reply to ukb shark:

Hypertrophy is one way of addressing the issue with the downside that increased size and subsequent weight will alter the strength to weight ratio in the long run.

By training at a higher intensity at decreased number of reps and sets you optimise the muscle you have through improved strength and power output with the downside that there is a cap based on the amount of muscle (hence then needing hypertrophy).

To be fair your average wall goer is never likely to encounter either as an issue and ultimately getting more sleep or a less stressful job would do more to improve their climbing (and life expectancy).


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