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So, my partner is doing vegan January (apparently that's a thing), which means that, whilst at home, I'll effectively be doing vegan January as well. I've recently just lost a decent amount of weight (and certainly bloat) by upping the proportions of protein in my diet. Nearly all of the high protein vegan recipes I can find are soy this, tofu that, tempeh the other, but a) isn't overproduction of soy pretty devastating for the environment and b) I'm not sure I can handle that much repetition in what I eat.
Anyone have any good hints as to how to keep protein intake high, but without soy/tofu stuck on repeat?
Anyone have any good hints as to how to keep protein intake high, but without soy/tofu stuck on repeat?
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
You're a bit stuck. Beans, lentils, nuts, soya in various forms. That's about it. Cheat lots while you're out? Buy some protein shake powder and stick it in a vegan protein shake tub?
You're a bit stuck. Beans, lentils, nuts, soya in various forms. That's about it. Cheat lots while you're out? Buy some protein shake powder and stick it in a vegan protein shake tub?
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Lentils! try North African recipes like Taboule with lentil salad, or Indian Dal variations. Get proper spices, especially asafoetida for the Dal, that can reduce the boredom.
For beans, I would recommend Tacos and other Mexican dishes based on refried beans, and Greek cuisine, e.g. veggie Moussaka with giant beans and aubergines, even though these are hard to get fresh. Vegan June would be a much better proposition!
Otherwise, buy yourself some yoghurts.
CB
Lentils! try North African recipes like Taboule with lentil salad, or Indian Dal variations. Get proper spices, especially asafoetida for the Dal, that can reduce the boredom.
For beans, I would recommend Tacos and other Mexican dishes based on refried beans, and Greek cuisine, e.g. veggie Moussaka with giant beans and aubergines, even though these are hard to get fresh. Vegan June would be a much better proposition!
Otherwise, buy yourself some yoghurts.
CB
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Depends where your soy is coming from. Mine is produced in France (where I live) and is all organic. The soy that is actually devastating for the environment is actually used to feed cattle and other animals (85% of the global production, see http://www.soyatech.com/soy_facts.htm ). But yes eating only soy gets boring.
For proteins, try seitan, which is wheat gluten I think and can be found in various forms. In terms of consistence I find that it's relatively close to chicken. Also lentils, beans, peas, quinoa... Some pseudo-milks may be enriched in proteins too (soy milk doesn't need to though, it's already rich in proteins).
> a) isn't overproduction of soy pretty devastating for the environment
Depends where your soy is coming from. Mine is produced in France (where I live) and is all organic. The soy that is actually devastating for the environment is actually used to feed cattle and other animals (85% of the global production, see http://www.soyatech.com/soy_facts.htm ). But yes eating only soy gets boring.
For proteins, try seitan, which is wheat gluten I think and can be found in various forms. In terms of consistence I find that it's relatively close to chicken. Also lentils, beans, peas, quinoa... Some pseudo-milks may be enriched in proteins too (soy milk doesn't need to though, it's already rich in proteins).
Post edited at 14:27
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
I believe the overproduction of Soy is due to it's use in animal feed, so is fuelled by the demands of meat eaters, not by vegans and veggies. Tofu is very bland, but really nice marinated, either by yourself or using Cauldron Foods marinated tofu - great in stir fries.
Personally I get most of my protein from things like veggie sausages, simply from convenience. Chick pea curry and bean chillis are also good
I believe the overproduction of Soy is due to it's use in animal feed, so is fuelled by the demands of meat eaters, not by vegans and veggies. Tofu is very bland, but really nice marinated, either by yourself or using Cauldron Foods marinated tofu - great in stir fries.
Personally I get most of my protein from things like veggie sausages, simply from convenience. Chick pea curry and bean chillis are also good
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In reply to JayPee630:
You can get vegan protein powder, they make it from hemp or peas.
You can do all sorts with protein powder goes well in cakes etc
You can get vegan protein powder, they make it from hemp or peas.
You can do all sorts with protein powder goes well in cakes etc
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
If a vegan willingly donates blood to you, is that vegan? Or your own blood stashed away during a period of proper diet?
If so you could make some vegan black pudding.
Epic business plan this, and here I am giving the idea away for free.
If a vegan willingly donates blood to you, is that vegan? Or your own blood stashed away during a period of proper diet?
If so you could make some vegan black pudding.
Epic business plan this, and here I am giving the idea away for free.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
You may find that we don't require as much protein in your diet as we are led to believe, try this (first hit on a google search for daily protein intake):
http://m.globalrph.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalrph.com%2Fprotein-calcul...
For me it calculates I need 60 grams of protein per day for maintenance and 100 grams for muscle gain. Almonds for example are 20% protein so it's pretty straightforward to get the protein needed by eating what has been suggested- pulses, nuts, mushrooms etc.
Regarding soy and the environment: the majority of soy produced is fed to livestock for meat production. In a food chain, 90% of the energy and nutrients are lost as you move through (so only 10% of the energy and nutrients stored in plants will be fixed in primary consumers- cows, sheep, the rest being used for movement, thermoregulation etc.).
Since we can directly eat the soy (and other vegetables) then we can avoid this wasted 90% from going through an animal intermediate, so for the environmentally conscious, avoiding meat would have a much bigger impact than avoiding soy products.
It's estimated that a standard omnivore will require 18 times more land than a vegan, as the omnivore will need land to raise the animals they eat, and much more land on which to grow the feed for the animals.
You may find that we don't require as much protein in your diet as we are led to believe, try this (first hit on a google search for daily protein intake):
http://m.globalrph.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalrph.com%2Fprotein-calcul...
For me it calculates I need 60 grams of protein per day for maintenance and 100 grams for muscle gain. Almonds for example are 20% protein so it's pretty straightforward to get the protein needed by eating what has been suggested- pulses, nuts, mushrooms etc.
Regarding soy and the environment: the majority of soy produced is fed to livestock for meat production. In a food chain, 90% of the energy and nutrients are lost as you move through (so only 10% of the energy and nutrients stored in plants will be fixed in primary consumers- cows, sheep, the rest being used for movement, thermoregulation etc.).
Since we can directly eat the soy (and other vegetables) then we can avoid this wasted 90% from going through an animal intermediate, so for the environmentally conscious, avoiding meat would have a much bigger impact than avoiding soy products.
It's estimated that a standard omnivore will require 18 times more land than a vegan, as the omnivore will need land to raise the animals they eat, and much more land on which to grow the feed for the animals.
Post edited at 15:13
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In reply to JohnV:
But vegans have bigger heads.
> It's estimated that a standard omnivore will require 18 times more land than a vegan, as the omnivore will need land to raise the animals they eat, and much more land on which to grow the feed for the animals.
But vegans have bigger heads.
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In reply to JohnV:
I try not to be a standard omnivore, but instead a conscientious one. However, that is for another thread.
> It's estimated that a standard omnivore will require 18 times more land than a vegan, as the omnivore will need land to raise the animals they eat, and much more land on which to grow the feed for the animals.
I try not to be a standard omnivore, but instead a conscientious one. However, that is for another thread.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
If you're only doing it for a month, it really doesn't matter!
As said already, you don't need a huge amount of protein and what you do need can be sourced from plants anyway. The only nutrient you might miss is vitamin B12, but again, it's only a month!
If you're only doing it for a month, it really doesn't matter!
As said already, you don't need a huge amount of protein and what you do need can be sourced from plants anyway. The only nutrient you might miss is vitamin B12, but again, it's only a month!
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In reply to ScottTalbot:
Only doing it for a month to begin with, possibly. *shudders*
I'll be sneaking Marmite in whatever I can for a savoury hit, so that should cover me for B12
> If you're only doing it for a month, it really doesn't matter!
Only doing it for a month to begin with, possibly. *shudders*
I'll be sneaking Marmite in whatever I can for a savoury hit, so that should cover me for B12
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Do it the easy way and chuck a nice steak in the pan once the vegan food has finished cooking
> So, my partner is doing vegan January (apparently that's a thing), which means that, whilst at home, I'll effectively be doing vegan January as well. I've recently just lost a decent amount of weight (and certainly bloat) by upping the proportions of protein in my diet. Nearly all of the high protein vegan recipes I can find are soy this, tofu that, tempeh the other, but a) isn't overproduction of soy pretty devastating for the environment and b) I'm not sure I can handle that much repetition in what I eat.
> Anyone have any good hints as to how to keep protein intake high, but without soy/tofu stuck on repeat?
Do it the easy way and chuck a nice steak in the pan once the vegan food has finished cooking
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
also, soy has alot of estrogen which can affect some people (made my housemate weepy) and can scupper testosterone productio/ give you bitch tits
also, soy has alot of estrogen which can affect some people (made my housemate weepy) and can scupper testosterone productio/ give you bitch tits
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Bagels have a disturbing amount of protein in them.
Otherwise, lentils are good, as mentioned above. Happy veganing!
Bagels have a disturbing amount of protein in them.
Otherwise, lentils are good, as mentioned above. Happy veganing!
In reply to timjones:
I know you're joking, but eating is a social thing for me and that includes sharing the same food.
> Do it the easy way and chuck a nice steak in the pan once the vegan food has finished cooking
I know you're joking, but eating is a social thing for me and that includes sharing the same food.
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In reply to La benya:
I think that's just the veganism (is that even a word!?!) Haha!
> also, soy has alot of estrogen which can affect some people (made my housemate weepy) and can scupper testosterone productio/ give you bitch tits
I think that's just the veganism (is that even a word!?!) Haha!
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Seitan is higher protein than beef and really cheap and easy to make. It's like the mock duck you can get in Chinese restaurants. No good if your coeliac though as it's wheat gluten based.
Seitan is higher protein than beef and really cheap and easy to make. It's like the mock duck you can get in Chinese restaurants. No good if your coeliac though as it's wheat gluten based.
In reply to The Thread:
Thanks all for your input. Good thing I like lentils!
I'm hopeful this month will make me discover a few new things to cook and return to some occasional meaty / cheesy treats.
P.S. - A friend suggested Huel, which I googled, before immediately deciding not to ever go to his for tea.
Thanks all for your input. Good thing I like lentils!
I'm hopeful this month will make me discover a few new things to cook and return to some occasional meaty / cheesy treats.
P.S. - A friend suggested Huel, which I googled, before immediately deciding not to ever go to his for tea.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
I'll have to confess that I was only half joking.
Eating can be a social experience and for that reason no-one should need to bend their own diet to suit someone elses preferences for a prolonged period. Being socialable is a 2 way thing.
> I know you're joking, but eating is a social thing for me and that includes sharing the same food.
I'll have to confess that I was only half joking.
Eating can be a social experience and for that reason no-one should need to bend their own diet to suit someone elses preferences for a prolonged period. Being socialable is a 2 way thing.
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In reply to La benya:
Except that's false, this myth has been debunked:
http://www.climbingnutrition.com/other/soy-dangerous-men/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/15/soy-myths_n_5571272.html
http://www.mensfitness.com/nutrition/what-to-eat/does-soy-really-cause-man-...
Etc.
Except that's false, this myth has been debunked:
http://www.climbingnutrition.com/other/soy-dangerous-men/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/15/soy-myths_n_5571272.html
http://www.mensfitness.com/nutrition/what-to-eat/does-soy-really-cause-man-...
Etc.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
soy, beans, pulses, nuts, vegan milks of all manner, LOADS of meat subsitute stuff out there (been a big influx very recently from a few brands with some really good tasting stuff available now...oh and I had veggie haggis the other day that someone made and it was really good! seriously loads).
I used to get about 25g from the seeds in the bread I ate (was a sliced, supermarket loaf, nothing fancy), it's really not hard to keep your protein up.
And anyone suggesting vegan food is boring or tasteless just doesn't know how to cook well enough. Meat makes most people lazy when cooking.
As pointed out the environmental impact of soy is due to it's use to feed animals, not vegans.
Or do some cooking for yourself?!
> So, my partner is doing vegan January (apparently that's a thing), which means that, whilst at home, I'll effectively be doing vegan January as well.
soy, beans, pulses, nuts, vegan milks of all manner, LOADS of meat subsitute stuff out there (been a big influx very recently from a few brands with some really good tasting stuff available now...oh and I had veggie haggis the other day that someone made and it was really good! seriously loads).
I used to get about 25g from the seeds in the bread I ate (was a sliced, supermarket loaf, nothing fancy), it's really not hard to keep your protein up.
And anyone suggesting vegan food is boring or tasteless just doesn't know how to cook well enough. Meat makes most people lazy when cooking.
As pointed out the environmental impact of soy is due to it's use to feed animals, not vegans.
> So, my partner is doing vegan January (apparently that's a thing), which means that, whilst at home, I'll effectively be doing vegan January as well.
Or do some cooking for yourself?!
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In reply to Adrien:
I'm sure you know as well as I do that you can get just as many counter articles and arguments from google. If you're pre-disposed to high estrogen/ low testosterone levels and eat a lot of soya product it wont do you any good.
I'm sure you know as well as I do that you can get just as many counter articles and arguments from google. If you're pre-disposed to high estrogen/ low testosterone levels and eat a lot of soya product it wont do you any good.
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In reply to La benya:
Er... no there isn't. Either studies show no effects, or were performed on animals so are irrelevant to human health. How come Japanese men don't all have massive jugs despite them eating lots of soy and tofu? Perhaps the only relevant case if that of a man who drank close to 3 litres of soy milk A DAY. Any foodstuff consumed in such proportions would have pretty bad consequences onyour health.
Er... no there isn't. Either studies show no effects, or were performed on animals so are irrelevant to human health. How come Japanese men don't all have massive jugs despite them eating lots of soy and tofu? Perhaps the only relevant case if that of a man who drank close to 3 litres of soy milk A DAY. Any foodstuff consumed in such proportions would have pretty bad consequences onyour health.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Good article on the BBC website this morning about what the implications would be if we all went vegan. Basically, a LOT less pressure on the environment. Lots more room for all the other living things.
Good article on the BBC website this morning about what the implications would be if we all went vegan. Basically, a LOT less pressure on the environment. Lots more room for all the other living things.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Bought a bag of freekeh yesterday, grain of the moment, high in protein.....
but I haven't tried it yet...
Bought a bag of freekeh yesterday, grain of the moment, high in protein.....
but I haven't tried it yet...
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
The rice protein powder is brilliant in terms of macronutrients (ie almost all protein.) It unfortunately tastes fairly nasty and doesn't mix well in shakes, but I came to quite like it in a bowl of porridge mixed with a banana and a lot of mixed spice. Although that was only about 10g powder with a 50g bowl of oats.
Edit: Actually in your situation I would just eat a tin of tuna before /after every meal.
The rice protein powder is brilliant in terms of macronutrients (ie almost all protein.) It unfortunately tastes fairly nasty and doesn't mix well in shakes, but I came to quite like it in a bowl of porridge mixed with a banana and a lot of mixed spice. Although that was only about 10g powder with a 50g bowl of oats.
Edit: Actually in your situation I would just eat a tin of tuna before /after every meal.
Post edited at 19:33
In reply to Phil1919:
I drive passed cropped fields and they are monocropped, evidently lacking biodiversity. In fact homogeneity is maintained by pesticides. Meanwhile i climb at Stanage on which sheep are grazed, but it is a space we share with myriad flora and fauna such as Ringed Ouzels, newts, frogs etc... Thus i contest veganism necessarily facilitates "Lots more room for all the other living things."
> Good article on the BBC website this morning about what the implications would be if we all went vegan. Basically, a LOT less pressure on the environment. Lots more room for all the other living things.
I drive passed cropped fields and they are monocropped, evidently lacking biodiversity. In fact homogeneity is maintained by pesticides. Meanwhile i climb at Stanage on which sheep are grazed, but it is a space we share with myriad flora and fauna such as Ringed Ouzels, newts, frogs etc... Thus i contest veganism necessarily facilitates "Lots more room for all the other living things."
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In reply to Shani:
How bio-diverse is the average field which sheep graze in?
I think you might be rather mistaken in linking the biodiversity of Stanage to the fact that sheep graze on and around it.
How bio-diverse is the average field which sheep graze in?
I think you might be rather mistaken in linking the biodiversity of Stanage to the fact that sheep graze on and around it.
Post edited at 21:04
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In reply to Shani:
In the UK, over grazing (circa 2014 when I did my Diploma) is the biggest threat to upland SSSI's .
Stanage is a lovely place, though.
In the UK, over grazing (circa 2014 when I did my Diploma) is the biggest threat to upland SSSI's .
Stanage is a lovely place, though.
Post edited at 21:07
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In reply to Timmd:
I'm not sure of the scale you'd use. But such pasture is unlike to be sprayed with pesticides. Lots of bugs can live there - and sheep droppings provide a food-source for some bugs - hence bird populations can also be supported by the ecology.
I'd recommend Simon Fairlie's "Meat: A Benign Extravagence."
> How bio-diverse is the average field which sheep are graze in?
I'm not sure of the scale you'd use. But such pasture is unlike to be sprayed with pesticides. Lots of bugs can live there - and sheep droppings provide a food-source for some bugs - hence bird populations can also be supported by the ecology.
I'd recommend Simon Fairlie's "Meat: A Benign Extravagence."
Post edited at 21:09
In reply to Timmd:
Yes, by definition 'over-grazing' is bad.
> In the UK, over grazing (circa 2014 when I did my Diploma) is the biggest threat to upland SSSI's .
> Stanage is a lovely place, though.
Yes, by definition 'over-grazing' is bad.
In reply to Shani:
If cropped fields are mono-cultures, wouldn't the corn and grain which is grown to feed animals be mono-cultures too?
If cropped fields are mono-cultures, wouldn't the corn and grain which is grown to feed animals be mono-cultures too?
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In reply to Scarab9:
Good to know.
I'm not suggesting vegan food is by its nature any more boring than any other. I'm just not used to cooking it on purpose. I cook loads of Indian food which is vegan, but know that I can sling out some lasagna the next day.
I'm normally, and overwhelmingly, "chef" thanks. I do pretty well.
> I used to get about 25g from the seeds in the bread I ate (was a sliced, supermarket loaf, nothing fancy), it's really not hard to keep your protein up.
Good to know.
> And anyone suggesting vegan food is boring or tasteless just doesn't know how to cook well enough. Meat makes most people lazy when cooking.
I'm not suggesting vegan food is by its nature any more boring than any other. I'm just not used to cooking it on purpose. I cook loads of Indian food which is vegan, but know that I can sling out some lasagna the next day.
> As pointed out the environmental impact of soy is due to it's use to feed animals, not vegans.
> Or do some cooking for yourself?!
I'm normally, and overwhelmingly, "chef" thanks. I do pretty well.
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In reply to Shani:
I'm all for organic.
But if we were all vegan then it would free up about 80% of the farmed land which could be 'untreated' and either managed or unmanaged rewilding could take place.
I'm all for organic.
But if we were all vegan then it would free up about 80% of the farmed land which could be 'untreated' and either managed or unmanaged rewilding could take place.
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In reply to Timmd:
Yes. That is why i try to buy meat from a non-intensive source It's way more expensive, but my butcher sources local food (so airmiles are reduced/low carbon, as are ghost acres), from farmers who pasture raise animals. This means my money goes also funds 'greener' modes of production. Packaging is also reduced and i eat nose to tail, including organ meat and the making of bone broth - so food waste is low.
> If cropped fields are mono-cultures, wouldn't the corn and grain which is grown to feed animals be mono-cultures too?
Yes. That is why i try to buy meat from a non-intensive source It's way more expensive, but my butcher sources local food (so airmiles are reduced/low carbon, as are ghost acres), from farmers who pasture raise animals. This means my money goes also funds 'greener' modes of production. Packaging is also reduced and i eat nose to tail, including organ meat and the making of bone broth - so food waste is low.
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In reply to Phil1919:
I question these figures. If we had more rewilded land without the reintroduction of an apex predator, couldn't we eat the herbivores such as deer? No need for veg*nism.
> But if we were all vegan then it would free up about 80% of the farmed land which could be 'untreated' and either managed or unmanaged rewilding could take place.
I question these figures. If we had more rewilded land without the reintroduction of an apex predator, couldn't we eat the herbivores such as deer? No need for veg*nism.
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In reply to Phil1919:
Apparently it would .
It's quite interesting, because some cows or other animals would still be needed to keep places like semi natural grasslands in their current state. There's a part natural semi-acidic grassland on the edge of Sheffield on the Blacka Moor estate managed by Sheffield Wildlife Trust, and cows are used to manage the species which grow on it to maintain the diversity there. A lot of the land in the UK has been heavily changed by humans.
> I'm all for organic.
> But if we were all vegan then it would free up about 80% of the farmed land which could be 'untreated' and either managed or unmanaged rewilding could take place.
Apparently it would .
It's quite interesting, because some cows or other animals would still be needed to keep places like semi natural grasslands in their current state. There's a part natural semi-acidic grassland on the edge of Sheffield on the Blacka Moor estate managed by Sheffield Wildlife Trust, and cows are used to manage the species which grow on it to maintain the diversity there. A lot of the land in the UK has been heavily changed by humans.
Post edited at 22:18
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Burgen bread.
It's like 10 grams of protein per bloody slice. Add peanut butter and marmite...
Burgen bread.
It's like 10 grams of protein per bloody slice. Add peanut butter and marmite...
In reply to neuromancer:
Marmite though- yeast being neither plant nor animal is it vegan? Had this discussion with my vegan cousin a wee while ago regarding fungi-based products. It was something she hadn't considered. Neither of us really had a definitive answer. Were I vegan I'd certainly feel the need to avoid them
Marmite though- yeast being neither plant nor animal is it vegan? Had this discussion with my vegan cousin a wee while ago regarding fungi-based products. It was something she hadn't considered. Neither of us really had a definitive answer. Were I vegan I'd certainly feel the need to avoid them
In reply to Shani:
I don't think it's that simple. How are those sheep fed? I imagine in the winter they have to be fed food produced elsewhere (possibly in the summertime too as a supplement?), which is likely to come from monocropped fields. Also plant-based lifestyles don't necessarily equal monocrops, it's a choice made by the farmer.
On a side note, and contrary to popular belief, sheep/cattle don't equal biodiversity. If there's sheep, there's eventually no trees, and forests (which are the original biotope of most of Europe) have much more biodiversity than land grazed by sheep. But strangely enough, even ski resorts can be more biodiverse: "Une piste de ski à Vars, dans le mélézin, c’est encore 125 espèces observées en deux heures, fin juillet 2005. Un pâturage surpâturé de l’Ubayette (Montagnette ou bas de l’Oronaye), c’est moins de 5 espèces sur 4 m2 en 2000." > a ski slope yielded 125 species in two hours, while an overgrazed pasture yielded less than 5 species (http://www.buvettedesalpages.be/2008/08/destruction.html ) (sorry my sources are in French). It's about the Alps and not Stanage but overgrazing is bad anywhere. Now of course you could choose not to overgraze; but then you'd need A LOT more land, which we can't really afford to give up in my opinion as urban sprawling is already taking its toll and there's fewer and fewer wild places. So meat couldn't be a major source of food if extensive farming of cattle was the norm. (Just think about those massive feedlots in the US, imagine the space it would take up to turn them into extensive farming!)
Not to mention soil trampling and the floods that come with it, as well as water pollution which are major problems.
As for the deer etc., again their numbers wouldn't be enough to sustain even a partially meat-based diet, you'd have to farm them. (And personnally I'd rather have a wild nature with wolves, lynxes and bears.)
I don't think it's that simple. How are those sheep fed? I imagine in the winter they have to be fed food produced elsewhere (possibly in the summertime too as a supplement?), which is likely to come from monocropped fields. Also plant-based lifestyles don't necessarily equal monocrops, it's a choice made by the farmer.
On a side note, and contrary to popular belief, sheep/cattle don't equal biodiversity. If there's sheep, there's eventually no trees, and forests (which are the original biotope of most of Europe) have much more biodiversity than land grazed by sheep. But strangely enough, even ski resorts can be more biodiverse: "Une piste de ski à Vars, dans le mélézin, c’est encore 125 espèces observées en deux heures, fin juillet 2005. Un pâturage surpâturé de l’Ubayette (Montagnette ou bas de l’Oronaye), c’est moins de 5 espèces sur 4 m2 en 2000." > a ski slope yielded 125 species in two hours, while an overgrazed pasture yielded less than 5 species (http://www.buvettedesalpages.be/2008/08/destruction.html ) (sorry my sources are in French). It's about the Alps and not Stanage but overgrazing is bad anywhere. Now of course you could choose not to overgraze; but then you'd need A LOT more land, which we can't really afford to give up in my opinion as urban sprawling is already taking its toll and there's fewer and fewer wild places. So meat couldn't be a major source of food if extensive farming of cattle was the norm. (Just think about those massive feedlots in the US, imagine the space it would take up to turn them into extensive farming!)
Not to mention soil trampling and the floods that come with it, as well as water pollution which are major problems.
As for the deer etc., again their numbers wouldn't be enough to sustain even a partially meat-based diet, you'd have to farm them. (And personnally I'd rather have a wild nature with wolves, lynxes and bears.)
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In reply to Shani:
Yes, I don't think it needs to be 100% veganism for all, but the figures quoted, which won't be exact, just show that with more veganism, huge gains can be made for very little loss. I agree, eat deer that become pests if we can't face living alongside wolves in remoter areas.
Yes, I don't think it needs to be 100% veganism for all, but the figures quoted, which won't be exact, just show that with more veganism, huge gains can be made for very little loss. I agree, eat deer that become pests if we can't face living alongside wolves in remoter areas.
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In reply to Timmd:
Yes, the BBC article acknowledged that in some areas raising livestock would be beneficial to the environment.
Yes, the BBC article acknowledged that in some areas raising livestock would be beneficial to the environment.
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In reply to Shani:
I'm quite amazed at how much land is set aside for livestock when I go by train from Kendal to Bristol.
I'm quite amazed at how much land is set aside for livestock when I go by train from Kendal to Bristol.
In reply to WildCamper:
buying highly processed veganfoods in order to make up an adequate amount of protein doesnt feel very much like eating a healthier diet
buying highly processed veganfoods in order to make up an adequate amount of protein doesnt feel very much like eating a healthier diet
In reply to Adrien:
A grass field is not monocropped - certainly not in the way a grain field is monocropped.
The answer to some of these problems is appropriate rotation of crops and animals over farmland.
Actually pastoral land is much more of a problem in terms of flooding, run-off, erosion, leaching of nutrients in to local water resources (eutrophication), siltation of water courses (which kills fish and other aquatic life). It is an evident problem as soon as you start removing surface vegetation (particularly during ploughing).
I disagree. Furthermore you might prefer "wild nature with wolves, lynxes and bears" and this would indeed be interesting. But none of those animals are herbivores so how are you going to feed them? From a food point of view, I prefer my idea of humans being the meat-eaters in this arrangement.
> I don't think it's that simple. How are those sheep fed? I imagine in the winter they have to be fed food produced elsewhere (possibly in the summertime too as a supplement?), which is likely to come from monocropped fields. Also plant-based lifestyles don't necessarily equal monocrops, it's a choice made by the farmer.
A grass field is not monocropped - certainly not in the way a grain field is monocropped.
> On a side note, and contrary to popular belief, sheep/cattle don't equal biodiversity. If there's sheep, there's eventually no trees, and forests (which are the original biotope of most of Europe) have much more biodiversity than land grazed by sheep. But strangely enough, even ski resorts can be more biodiverse: "Une piste de ski à Vars, dans le mélézin, c’est encore 125 espèces observées en deux heures, fin juillet 2005. Un pâturage surpâturé de l’Ubayette (Montagnette ou bas de l’Oronaye), c’est moins de 5 espèces sur 4 m2 en 2000." > a ski slope yielded 125 species in two hours, while an overgrazed pasture yielded less than 5 species (http://www.buvettedesalpages.be/2008/08/destruction.html ) (sorry my sources are in French). It's about the Alps and not Stanage but overgrazing is bad anywhere. Now of course you could choose not to overgraze; but then you'd need A LOT more land, which we can't really afford to give up in my opinion as urban sprawling is already taking its toll and there's fewer and fewer wild places. So meat couldn't be a major source of food if extensive farming of cattle was the norm. (Just think about those massive feedlots in the US, imagine the space it would take up to turn them into extensive farming!)
The answer to some of these problems is appropriate rotation of crops and animals over farmland.
> Not to mention soil trampling and the floods that come with it, as well as water pollution which are major problems.
Actually pastoral land is much more of a problem in terms of flooding, run-off, erosion, leaching of nutrients in to local water resources (eutrophication), siltation of water courses (which kills fish and other aquatic life). It is an evident problem as soon as you start removing surface vegetation (particularly during ploughing).
> As for the deer etc., again their numbers wouldn't be enough to sustain even a partially meat-based diet, you'd have to farm them. (And personnally I'd rather have a wild nature with wolves, lynxes and bears.)
I disagree. Furthermore you might prefer "wild nature with wolves, lynxes and bears" and this would indeed be interesting. But none of those animals are herbivores so how are you going to feed them? From a food point of view, I prefer my idea of humans being the meat-eaters in this arrangement.
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In reply to Phil1919:
And that is the land on which bird-life, foxes, badgers, mice, voles, frogs, newts, beetles & bugs etc... all survive on without risk of poisoning from pesticides or the slice of the plough!
> I'm quite amazed at how much land is set aside for livestock when I go by train from Kendal to Bristol.
And that is the land on which bird-life, foxes, badgers, mice, voles, frogs, newts, beetles & bugs etc... all survive on without risk of poisoning from pesticides or the slice of the plough!
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In reply to nathan79:
Really, why?
What is the point of veganism, for some it's primarily about reducing animal suffering, for others primarily about waste reduction but neither of those, nor 'health', the other common driver make a strong case against consuming yeast or other micro-organisms. Some vegans avoid fermented drinks but that's because they're commonly fined with animal/fish byproducts which aren't commonly listed as ingredients.
jk
> Marmite though- yeast being neither plant nor animal is it vegan?... Were I vegan I'd certainly feel the need to avoid them
Really, why?
What is the point of veganism, for some it's primarily about reducing animal suffering, for others primarily about waste reduction but neither of those, nor 'health', the other common driver make a strong case against consuming yeast or other micro-organisms. Some vegans avoid fermented drinks but that's because they're commonly fined with animal/fish byproducts which aren't commonly listed as ingredients.
jk
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In reply to jkarran:
And unfortunately veg*nism pushes the killing to where it cannot be seen. We compete with animals at the base of the food chain with cropped fields....we keep the competition at bay with a host of lethal chemicals that travel far beyond their intended geography.
> Really, why?
> What is the point of veganism, for some it's primarily about reducing animal suffering,
> jk
And unfortunately veg*nism pushes the killing to where it cannot be seen. We compete with animals at the base of the food chain with cropped fields....we keep the competition at bay with a host of lethal chemicals that travel far beyond their intended geography.
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In reply to Shani:
Again, where do you think the majority of animal feed comes from?
Very skeptical about that but if you have good objective sources I'll happily have a look.
Ditto. I doubt all the excrements of sheep and cattle have a lesser impact on water sources. And as for agriculture that depends on how it is implemented, but pesticides are not needed, it's partly about selecting the crops most resistant to such or such pest or best adapted to such or such conditions (which is getting increasingly hard with all the patenting issues). Regarding ploughing no-till farming seems to be an interesting alternative?
You may disagree but the number of deer in our forests is nowhere near the number of animals we currently eat (about 60 billion land animals worldwide per year and 100 billion fish). There's enough of them for apex predators though.
Raptors, mice, voles, foxes, bustards... will arguably be as (or more in the case of rodents?) common in grain fields. Badgers live primarily in forests, as do many birds. Frogs, newts... are rather subordinate on wetlands. I agree though that larks, shrikes and other birds prefer open spaces, but perhaps they weren't "meant" to reach the numbers they've reached back when everything was covered with forests. Or they just adapted and could just as well adapt back to living in forests. One key issue no matter the food source is the rehabilitation of hedges.
> A grass field is not monocropped - certainly not in the way a grain field is monocropped.
Again, where do you think the majority of animal feed comes from?
> The answer to some of these problems is appropriate rotation of crops and animals over farmland.
Very skeptical about that but if you have good objective sources I'll happily have a look.
> Actually pastoral land is much more of a problem in terms of flooding, run-off, erosion, leaching of nutrients in to local water resources (eutrophication), siltation of water courses (which kills fish and other aquatic life). It is an evident problem as soon as you start removing surface vegetation (particularly during ploughing).
Ditto. I doubt all the excrements of sheep and cattle have a lesser impact on water sources. And as for agriculture that depends on how it is implemented, but pesticides are not needed, it's partly about selecting the crops most resistant to such or such pest or best adapted to such or such conditions (which is getting increasingly hard with all the patenting issues). Regarding ploughing no-till farming seems to be an interesting alternative?
> I disagree. Furthermore you might prefer "wild nature with wolves, lynxes and bears" and this would indeed be interesting. But none of those animals are herbivores so how are you going to feed them? From a food point of view, I prefer my idea of humans being the meat-eaters in this arrangement.
You may disagree but the number of deer in our forests is nowhere near the number of animals we currently eat (about 60 billion land animals worldwide per year and 100 billion fish). There's enough of them for apex predators though.
> And that is the land on which bird-life, foxes, badgers, mice, voles, frogs, newts, beetles & bugs etc... all survive on without risk of poisoning from pesticides or the slice of the plough!
Raptors, mice, voles, foxes, bustards... will arguably be as (or more in the case of rodents?) common in grain fields. Badgers live primarily in forests, as do many birds. Frogs, newts... are rather subordinate on wetlands. I agree though that larks, shrikes and other birds prefer open spaces, but perhaps they weren't "meant" to reach the numbers they've reached back when everything was covered with forests. Or they just adapted and could just as well adapt back to living in forests. One key issue no matter the food source is the rehabilitation of hedges.
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In reply to Shani:
Aren't we just going round in circles here?
Cropped fields aren't great but reducing meat consumption will reduce cropped fields, why focus your ire on veg*nism rather than cropped fields?
Obviously you can reduce the harm of meat eating by being careful with the means of producing the meat but you can say exactly the same with production of crops.
> And unfortunately veg*nism pushes the killing to where it cannot be seen. We compete with animals at the base of the food chain with cropped fields....we keep the competition at bay with a host of lethal chemicals that travel far beyond their intended geography.
Aren't we just going round in circles here?
Cropped fields aren't great but reducing meat consumption will reduce cropped fields, why focus your ire on veg*nism rather than cropped fields?
Obviously you can reduce the harm of meat eating by being careful with the means of producing the meat but you can say exactly the same with production of crops.
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In reply to Shani:
Like diclofenac, roxarsone or antibiotics you mean?
> And unfortunately veg*nism pushes the killing to where it cannot be seen. We compete with animals at the base of the food chain with cropped fields....we keep the competition at bay with a host of lethal chemicals that travel far beyond their intended geography.
Like diclofenac, roxarsone or antibiotics you mean?
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In reply to Shani:
To join in the off-topic discussion that this has become, I tend towards thinking that conscientious eating can only be a good thing, in whatever form people feel comfortable with, and I've certainly not seen any open-shut cases put forward by veganism or any other specialised diet.. There's no doubt that industrial/factory farming is a huge problem, both ethically and environmentally, but something we really need to deal with as a species is food waste. I think the estimates range from a third to a half of all food produced goes to waste and for me that is an unforgiveable disgrace when people are dying of hunger in the world.
To join in the off-topic discussion that this has become, I tend towards thinking that conscientious eating can only be a good thing, in whatever form people feel comfortable with, and I've certainly not seen any open-shut cases put forward by veganism or any other specialised diet.. There's no doubt that industrial/factory farming is a huge problem, both ethically and environmentally, but something we really need to deal with as a species is food waste. I think the estimates range from a third to a half of all food produced goes to waste and for me that is an unforgiveable disgrace when people are dying of hunger in the world.
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In reply to Adrien:
Yep - which is why I source my meat from a butcher with strong welfare ethics. The beef they provide is not reared on the antibiotic bolus given in conventional farming.
> Like diclofenac, roxarsone or antibiotics you mean?
Yep - which is why I source my meat from a butcher with strong welfare ethics. The beef they provide is not reared on the antibiotic bolus given in conventional farming.
In reply to Shani:
Who on earth told you about this "antibiotic bolus"?
> Yep - which is why I source my meat from a butcher with strong welfare ethics. The beef they provide is not reared on the antibiotic bolus given in conventional farming.
Who on earth told you about this "antibiotic bolus"?
In reply to Adrien:
I'd recommend Simon Fairlie's book I mention above.
But the long and the short of it is that simply going veg*an is NOT going to solve the problems in farming. There is a dependency on out of season foods (fruits in winter), lots of air miles, highly processed foods (protein powders and TVP), and questionable claims of reductions in suffering.
Similarly, all meat production is not the same. It is important to support meat producers with strong ethical and welfare standards, who see environmental concerns as a part of their farming system. Animals are key to most ecosystems in a self-sustaining cycle. Farming should learn from such principles. We should also eat nose to tail including organ meats and bones to reduce waste.
> Again, where do you think the majority of animal feed comes from?
> Very skeptical about that but if you have good objective sources I'll happily have a look.
I'd recommend Simon Fairlie's book I mention above.
But the long and the short of it is that simply going veg*an is NOT going to solve the problems in farming. There is a dependency on out of season foods (fruits in winter), lots of air miles, highly processed foods (protein powders and TVP), and questionable claims of reductions in suffering.
Similarly, all meat production is not the same. It is important to support meat producers with strong ethical and welfare standards, who see environmental concerns as a part of their farming system. Animals are key to most ecosystems in a self-sustaining cycle. Farming should learn from such principles. We should also eat nose to tail including organ meats and bones to reduce waste.
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In reply to Shani:
But there can be a dependency on out of season foods even if you eat meat, that depends on what you eat. Meat is not a panacea in that regard, it doesn't provide you with all the nutrients you need.
Lots of air miles - again, depends where you source your food; I'm (only) vegetarian but most of what I eat is produced in France, and that includes soy and - yes - quinoa (while the soy is produced is the south, my quinoa comes from the Loiret département, so not really a tropical climate). I just came back from the organic shop and bought a bunch of carrots, various squashes, horseradish, Corsican tangerines... Hardly exotic produce.
Farming animals is also inherently polluting, no matter how "ethically" it is done, because of methane.
Questionable claims of reduction in suffering? You may or may not care about it and that is your right, but I wouldn't call the killing of dozens of billions of land and marine animals negligible. The vegan ideal is probably not perfect, but it's still an improvement over the current situation.
But there can be a dependency on out of season foods even if you eat meat, that depends on what you eat. Meat is not a panacea in that regard, it doesn't provide you with all the nutrients you need.
Lots of air miles - again, depends where you source your food; I'm (only) vegetarian but most of what I eat is produced in France, and that includes soy and - yes - quinoa (while the soy is produced is the south, my quinoa comes from the Loiret département, so not really a tropical climate). I just came back from the organic shop and bought a bunch of carrots, various squashes, horseradish, Corsican tangerines... Hardly exotic produce.
Farming animals is also inherently polluting, no matter how "ethically" it is done, because of methane.
Questionable claims of reduction in suffering? You may or may not care about it and that is your right, but I wouldn't call the killing of dozens of billions of land and marine animals negligible. The vegan ideal is probably not perfect, but it's still an improvement over the current situation.
Post edited at 11:13
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In reply to Adrien and Shani:
Both of you seem to be railing against a type of meat-eating/veganism which neither of you actually espouse, but don't let that stop you arguing.
I think surely the point must be that there's no magic bullet, but if everyone was at least conscientious in how and what they ate then that would go a long way to alleviating some of the environmental and ethical issues we have in how we feed ourselves. The main problem, I would argue, is that the vast majority of people, certainly in the capitalist west, don't give a second's thought to where their food came from or how it got to them.
Both of you seem to be railing against a type of meat-eating/veganism which neither of you actually espouse, but don't let that stop you arguing.
I think surely the point must be that there's no magic bullet, but if everyone was at least conscientious in how and what they ate then that would go a long way to alleviating some of the environmental and ethical issues we have in how we feed ourselves. The main problem, I would argue, is that the vast majority of people, certainly in the capitalist west, don't give a second's thought to where their food came from or how it got to them.
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In reply to Shani:
Mmmm, but it wouldn't need to be ploughed up or pesticided. Its something like a ninth of the land needed to provide vegan food instead of meat. Only a rough figure, but its dramatically less.
Mmmm, but it wouldn't need to be ploughed up or pesticided. Its something like a ninth of the land needed to provide vegan food instead of meat. Only a rough figure, but its dramatically less.
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
The article said that an American family eating meat produce more emmissions than if they were vegan and owned/drove two cars.
The article said that an American family eating meat produce more emmissions than if they were vegan and owned/drove two cars.
In reply to Phil1919:
This is why I think we need to be careful with our comparisons. I expect that if I went vegan the degree of change would be much reduced - I eat meat once or twice a week and it comes from a butcher who gets his meat from small farms all within 20 miles of his shop. In reality, I'm far more likely to become vegan than an average American family, so to enact significant change, we should be educating people (I mean literally educating - home economics/whatever you want to call it) to more carefully consider how to shop and eat, plus putting a real awareness into them of where their food comes from and the things we compromise in order to get that food.
> The article said that an American family eating meat produce more emmissions than if they were vegan and owned/drove two cars.
This is why I think we need to be careful with our comparisons. I expect that if I went vegan the degree of change would be much reduced - I eat meat once or twice a week and it comes from a butcher who gets his meat from small farms all within 20 miles of his shop. In reality, I'm far more likely to become vegan than an average American family, so to enact significant change, we should be educating people (I mean literally educating - home economics/whatever you want to call it) to more carefully consider how to shop and eat, plus putting a real awareness into them of where their food comes from and the things we compromise in order to get that food.
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In reply to Adrien:
Agreed. Nor does veg*ansim.
Yeah, agreed. That is why I try to shop local, seasonal and ethical. I don't do it all the time as it is not practical.
I understand other veg*n food sources can be huge sources of methane - such as is rice production. Also fossil fuels and landfill. With respect to animals, you were talking above about reintroducing bears, lynxes and wolves. What are they going to eat? They ruminant prey apex predators eat are themselves a source of methane. Those wild places you revere, think about the number of buffalo that roamed the Great Plains of the US - think about how wild that was, and think of the methane generated.
Also, grassland are important greenhouse gas sinks. Grazing animals are part of the fix in maintaining such habitat.
Check out the mice plagues in the grain belt of Australia. Industrial killing on a vast scale.
> But there can be a dependency on out of season foods even if you eat meat, that depends on what you eat. Meat is not a panacea in that regard, it doesn't provide you with all the nutrients you need.
Agreed. Nor does veg*ansim.
> Lots of air miles - again, depends where you source your food; I'm (only) vegetarian but most of what I eat is produced in France, and that includes soy and - yes - quinoa (while the soy is produced is the south, my quinoa comes from the Loiret département, so not really a tropical climate). I just came back from the organic shop and bought a bunch of carrots, various squashes, horseradish, Corsican tangerines... Hardly exotic produce.
Yeah, agreed. That is why I try to shop local, seasonal and ethical. I don't do it all the time as it is not practical.
> Farming animals is also inherently polluting, no matter how "ethically" it is done, because of methane.
I understand other veg*n food sources can be huge sources of methane - such as is rice production. Also fossil fuels and landfill. With respect to animals, you were talking above about reintroducing bears, lynxes and wolves. What are they going to eat? They ruminant prey apex predators eat are themselves a source of methane. Those wild places you revere, think about the number of buffalo that roamed the Great Plains of the US - think about how wild that was, and think of the methane generated.
Also, grassland are important greenhouse gas sinks. Grazing animals are part of the fix in maintaining such habitat.
> Questionable claims of reduction in suffering? You may or may not care about it and that is your right, but I wouldn't call the killing of dozens of billions of land and marine animals negligible. The vegan ideal is probably not perfect, but it's still an improvement over the current situation.
Check out the mice plagues in the grain belt of Australia. Industrial killing on a vast scale.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Rick Steins aloo dum recipe is fantastic and should be ok protein wise due to the mix of pulse and carbohydrate.
Rick Steins aloo dum recipe is fantastic and should be ok protein wise due to the mix of pulse and carbohydrate.
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In reply to Baron Weasel:
Good shout. I did a veggie version of the chicken kurma from Rick Stein's India and it was marvelous - not vegan though because of the yoghurt.
Good shout. I did a veggie version of the chicken kurma from Rick Stein's India and it was marvelous - not vegan though because of the yoghurt.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Why would you sneak it? Marmite is vegan, isn't it?
> I'll be sneaking Marmite in whatever I can for a savoury hit, so that should cover me for B12
Why would you sneak it? Marmite is vegan, isn't it?
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In reply to skog:
Okay, I will deliberately and with much ceremony announce the Marmite going into whatever I'm cooking. Perhaps a shuttle-launch style countdown?
Okay, I will deliberately and with much ceremony announce the Marmite going into whatever I'm cooking. Perhaps a shuttle-launch style countdown?
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In reply to nathan79:
Veganism tries to avoid animal produce (and in some cases, exploitation); I'm not aware of any animal produce or exploitation involved in the production of marmite.
It's not obvious to me why anyone would want to avoid fungi, but each to their own!
As someone who has been vegan, and who has something of a tendency to get obsessed with systems and details, I think it's very important to avoid losing sight of why you're doing something, of what you hope to achieve or to avoid by doing it.
Making a serious attempt to reduce the amount of suffering your diet and lifestyle cause, but not worrying about the details of whether you're doing things exactly "right" will probably achieve more than fussing over details and probably missing the bigger picture in the process.
I do understand that it can be easier to give yourself a set of rules to work to, but it's still the results which matter, not how well you stick to those rules.
> Marmite though- yeast being neither plant nor animal is it vegan? Had this discussion with my vegan cousin a wee while ago regarding fungi-based products. It was something she hadn't considered. Neither of us really had a definitive answer. Were I vegan I'd certainly feel the need to avoid them
Veganism tries to avoid animal produce (and in some cases, exploitation); I'm not aware of any animal produce or exploitation involved in the production of marmite.
It's not obvious to me why anyone would want to avoid fungi, but each to their own!
As someone who has been vegan, and who has something of a tendency to get obsessed with systems and details, I think it's very important to avoid losing sight of why you're doing something, of what you hope to achieve or to avoid by doing it.
Making a serious attempt to reduce the amount of suffering your diet and lifestyle cause, but not worrying about the details of whether you're doing things exactly "right" will probably achieve more than fussing over details and probably missing the bigger picture in the process.
I do understand that it can be easier to give yourself a set of rules to work to, but it's still the results which matter, not how well you stick to those rules.
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In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
That's the spirit!
Most food is better with marmite. It's basically just savoury salt, after all.
(And it's very useful in a vegan diet, for the B vitamins).
> Okay, I will deliberately and with much ceremony announce the Marmite going into whatever I'm cooking. Perhaps a shuttle-launch style countdown?
That's the spirit!
Most food is better with marmite. It's basically just savoury salt, after all.
(And it's very useful in a vegan diet, for the B vitamins).
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In reply to Shani:
OK we've reached a point where everything is lumped together, things are barely connected to one another and nothing makes sense anymore, so I'll stop arguing.
OK we've reached a point where everything is lumped together, things are barely connected to one another and nothing makes sense anymore, so I'll stop arguing.
Post edited at 15:22
In reply to Adrien:
"OK this is evidently getting nowhere and pointless, I might as well desert this thread."
I am disappointed by this. I thought we were discussing, rather than arguing. I have agreed with many of your points and would wager that we both have very strong environmental ethics. Internet forums don't really allow fluid discourse and I've no wish to open up strand by strand rebuttals as that will get us nowhere. It took me a while to be convinced to abandon my own 10 years of vegetarianism (three of which were vegan), so I am not intransigent in these matters (again shown by my agreements with you).
I maintain that veg*nism is nutritionally incomplete as a diet. The point about mice was to show that a veg*n foodstuff and production system can still involve massive killing. Similarly, eating meat from something like a kangaroo can be an act of environmentalism.
With regards to your points about methane, here is an article that articulates things way better than I could and some of the other points you mention/question (around fossil fuels, landfill etc...):
http://www.shapingtomorrowsworld.org/wahlquistmethane.html
The problems are complex. Veg*nism offers us simplistic answers.
"OK this is evidently getting nowhere and pointless, I might as well desert this thread."
I am disappointed by this. I thought we were discussing, rather than arguing. I have agreed with many of your points and would wager that we both have very strong environmental ethics. Internet forums don't really allow fluid discourse and I've no wish to open up strand by strand rebuttals as that will get us nowhere. It took me a while to be convinced to abandon my own 10 years of vegetarianism (three of which were vegan), so I am not intransigent in these matters (again shown by my agreements with you).
I maintain that veg*nism is nutritionally incomplete as a diet. The point about mice was to show that a veg*n foodstuff and production system can still involve massive killing. Similarly, eating meat from something like a kangaroo can be an act of environmentalism.
With regards to your points about methane, here is an article that articulates things way better than I could and some of the other points you mention/question (around fossil fuels, landfill etc...):
http://www.shapingtomorrowsworld.org/wahlquistmethane.html
The problems are complex. Veg*nism offers us simplistic answers.
Post edited at 15:26
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In reply to Shani:
You can replace arguing with discussing, which is what I meant (English isn't my mother tongue and I'm never quite sure what tone "to argue" carries). I do believe though that we're not really getting anywhere (in the sense that we won't agree in the end) even though valid points have been exchanged. I just don't like being dragged in long Internet discussions on sensitive topics as I end up taking things personnally and think about it when offline (which I know is silly but that's my nature it seems). So it's easier to just turn the page.
As I understand the mice plagues are a human-made problem caused by the absence of native predators, so I don't see it as an inherent problem to veganism. You wouldn't have a rodent plague here as foxes do their jobs (a single fox can eat as many as 9,000 rodents a year! Yet in France they're still legally considered as pests in most départements and we end up using bromadiolone to kill rodents. Go figure). But yes I do realize that things are complex and that a suffering-free world is perhaps impossible to achieve.
I'm still deserting this thread as it's harming my productivity and I should be translating quantum mechanics right now (ugh).
You can replace arguing with discussing, which is what I meant (English isn't my mother tongue and I'm never quite sure what tone "to argue" carries). I do believe though that we're not really getting anywhere (in the sense that we won't agree in the end) even though valid points have been exchanged. I just don't like being dragged in long Internet discussions on sensitive topics as I end up taking things personnally and think about it when offline (which I know is silly but that's my nature it seems). So it's easier to just turn the page.
As I understand the mice plagues are a human-made problem caused by the absence of native predators, so I don't see it as an inherent problem to veganism. You wouldn't have a rodent plague here as foxes do their jobs (a single fox can eat as many as 9,000 rodents a year! Yet in France they're still legally considered as pests in most départements and we end up using bromadiolone to kill rodents. Go figure). But yes I do realize that things are complex and that a suffering-free world is perhaps impossible to achieve.
I'm still deserting this thread as it's harming my productivity and I should be translating quantum mechanics right now (ugh).
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In reply to Adrien:
Merci pour la discussion. Je comprends vos préoccupations concernant le débat sur Internet. Je suis heureux que nous puissions trouver une certaine compréhension commune. Il est bon que, bien que nous avons des opinions différentes sur la façon de résoudre les problèmes environnementaux, au moins nous pensons à ces problèmes! Bonne chance avec la traduction de la mécanique quantique.
Cordialement,
Christophe
Merci pour la discussion. Je comprends vos préoccupations concernant le débat sur Internet. Je suis heureux que nous puissions trouver une certaine compréhension commune. Il est bon que, bien que nous avons des opinions différentes sur la façon de résoudre les problèmes environnementaux, au moins nous pensons à ces problèmes! Bonne chance avec la traduction de la mécanique quantique.
Cordialement,
Christophe
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In reply to Shani:
Well, that was unexpected! J'ai mis le livre de Simon Fairlie sur ma liste d'envies (après tout, s'il a fait changer d'avis Monbiot...!), merci pour la recommandation. Je vais aussi jeter un œil à l'article de Wahlquist.
Bonne soirée !
Well, that was unexpected! J'ai mis le livre de Simon Fairlie sur ma liste d'envies (après tout, s'il a fait changer d'avis Monbiot...!), merci pour la recommandation. Je vais aussi jeter un œil à l'article de Wahlquist.
Bonne soirée !
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
Still less devastating to eat soy directly than to feed it to animals and try and recoup the lost protein later. A large proportion of animal feed is made of soy, or palm oil, etc.
A few options:
- cashew stir fry. Stir fry up favourite vegetables, add favourite stir fry sauce, add cashews right before the end - done.
- Grill/burn vegetables on skewers, eat with thick peanut satay sauce.
- falafel with salad. Use lots of avocado to get it to be creamy. Hummus is a good component as well.
Have fun
> a) isn't overproduction of soy pretty devastating for the environment
Still less devastating to eat soy directly than to feed it to animals and try and recoup the lost protein later. A large proportion of animal feed is made of soy, or palm oil, etc.
A few options:
- cashew stir fry. Stir fry up favourite vegetables, add favourite stir fry sauce, add cashews right before the end - done.
- Grill/burn vegetables on skewers, eat with thick peanut satay sauce.
- falafel with salad. Use lots of avocado to get it to be creamy. Hummus is a good component as well.
Have fun
1
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
I was a vegetarian for 35 years, I had a short spell of being vegan and attempted a high protein diet.
The only thing it gave me was the ability to fart the national anthem in four part harmonies.
I was a vegetarian for 35 years, I had a short spell of being vegan and attempted a high protein diet.
The only thing it gave me was the ability to fart the national anthem in four part harmonies.
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