UKC

After watching a video posted on Steve Long's thread yesterday and an another video a couple days previously, I had a few queries on some techniques shown. In relation to "best practices" both these videos have guidance to which I was taught contrary advice. However I also acknowledge that the instructors in both videos appear to be Mountain Guides, which makes them highly more qualified than I. Who to trust? I have been given contrary information by a highly qualified (MIC).

youtube.com/watch?v=DpWKrghSLao&

In the first video both the 120cm sewn sling and looped cord are tied with a figure of eight. I was taught that when in this situation an overhand is advisable due to it having better stability and not rolling as apposed to the figure of eight that can roll. Why not use a knot that is seemingly more stable if they are mostly equal in other regards?

http://www.rockandice.com/video-gallery/amga-guides-tips/releasing-a-loaded...

This chap does a few things I have queries against. Like wrapping the rope around his hand and not capturing both tails when tying off the Italian hitch (MMO).

Are there examples of a singular "best practice"?

In reply to ModerateMatt:

What situation? Are you referring to the cord sling at around 1:50 in the first video? In which case the dangerous propensity of a figure 8 to roll when the tails are loaded in different directions, which make it lethal for joining abseil ropes, is completely irrelevant to the scenario, because here the tails are not being loaded in different directions. Whereas for that situation a loaded overhand has an inconvenient - although not dangerous - propensity to weld itself completely shut. So in the situation being shown, the easier-to-undo-afterwards figure 8 is perhaps marginally better.

Also in video 1, I don't see a "looped cord". Do you mean the single cord lanyard at 0:25 onwards? Here the knot - if it is a fig 8 which I can't see clearly at the resolution of my screen - *is* being cross loaded, but can't roll anywhere because when it's under load it has a karabiner in the bight. So again I don't see a problem although personally I'd use a butterfly in that arrangement.

So ..


Because rolling is not one of the relevant hazards in the scenario being shown.

Or I've misinterpreted which parts of the video you're referring to, in which case my apologies.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Sorry I should have referenced the time stamps I'm talking about. Roughly 1:30 for the 120cm loop of dynamic rope with figure of eight tied in it and about 4.30 for the 120 cm sewn sling with figure of eight tied in it.

I am referring to the situation in the video. Extending a belay device for an abseil.

"In which case the dangerous propensity of a figure 8 to roll when the tails are loaded in different directions, which make it lethal for joining abseil ropes, is completely irrelevant to the scenario, because here the tails are not being loaded in different directions."

When the person abseiling has left the anchor and is no longer weighting the rope/sling in-line as the rope/sling will be loaded at the knot. Now that knot has the ability to roll especially if the knot was not placed in the middle of the loop in which the belay device is attached and now it can be cross loaded therefor roll. Using an overhand would stop that rolling.

I still think it is justifiable to use an overhand but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

In reply to ModerateMatt:

Most techniques have pros and cons which may make them more or less suited to a certain situation so rather than seeking a single best practice you could think about identifying the strengths & weaknesses of different techniques so you can match them to the situation in front of you.

Like Alan, I don't have a problem with the figure of eights in the first video. Would an overhand be better? It's smaller and simpler and uses less cord but is harder to undo when it's been weighted. Is either knot going to break under bodyweight? (which, of course, is all you should have on a cow's tail.) Highly unlikely. I couldn't see what was wrong with the Munter tie-offs in the second video but may be missing something.

One thing I'd hope to find general agreement on is that the method of clipping the anchor in the first video could be better. Whilst we can't see what the anchor sling is clipped to, it looks like the system has no redundancy as he uses it. i.e. a failure of the anchor at either end of the sling would be a complete anchor failure. The angle enclosed by the sling where he clips it is also a lot larger than is ideal which will put higher load on the individual anchor points. Using a longer sling would have given a better angle and allowed a knot to be tied to give redundancy.

In reply to AdrianC:

"Most techniques have pros and cons"

You said it perfectly and I totally agree. What I meant was are there techniques that can be agreed upon which are unanimously better than others?


Again I agree, I just want to debate the pros and cons.

>I couldn't see what was wrong with the Munter tie-offs in the second video but may be missing something.

If you look when he ties off the overhand underneath the slippery hitch he doesn't get the dead end of the rope in the overhand.


I neglected to see that as I was too busy looking at the other stuff but I will have a look.

In reply to ModerateMatt:

I don't think it's a comparable situation at all. The knot joining abseil ropes is loaded at 180 degrees, often with considerably more than bodyweight due to bouncing, it is unattended and there's nothing to stop it rolling completely off the ends. Whereas you'd have to be pretty radically sloppy tying your lanyard to achieve 180 degree loading on the middle knot; it's right in front of your nose so you would see and feel it start to roll immediately; and there's another knot with a krab in it at the end of the sling to stop it rolling right off the end.


It's perfectly justifiable to use an overhand and I generally do because that's how I learned it, but from my experience using nylon slings as abseil lanyards, a loaded overhand has a distressing tendency to become permanent pretty quickly. Whereas I think the rolling risk of an eight *for this usage* is negligible.

Perfectly reasonable of you to be asking these questions of course.

In reply to ModerateMatt:

At about 5m 30s the abseiler lets go of the dead rope without arranging a back up for the prussik. That isn't best practice, or even good practice, it's bad practice that may one day end sadly.

In reply to ModerateMatt:

The expression "best practice" has always grated with me: it suggests one has arrived at a perfect solution. I prefer to aim for "better practice", i.e., better than before, better than the competition...

In reply to ModerateMatt:

My preferred term is probably Safe Practice.

In reply to jezb1:

That's a good term Jez. I find many people use 'best practise' too quickly (or to mean "my way of doing it" and in a manner that suggests there is only one way of doing it. 'Good practise' sounds a lot more open ended and seems to recognise there is more than one appropriate way to do things. In a given situation there probably is a 'best' way to do things but it is highly situational and individual depending on things such as: what you are trying to achieve, your own experience and knowledge, weather, equipment available, how tired you are and able to concentrate etc. etc. Climbers in particular seem very quick to judge and criticise others' practise without having a full picture of all the factors involved. So whilst its often easy to spot obviously 'poor/bad' practise I try to not jump to conclusions and recognise that its hard for me to to tell someone else what the 'best' way for them to do something is. Given what we are often trying to achieve I think I'll use your phrase "safe practise" as much as the "good practise" which i already use.

In reply to AlH:

I would be very cautious about saying 'safe practice' because many situations you'll be using it in can never be made completely safe, regardless of what good practice behaviour and techniques you employ.

In reply to john arran:

... and more importantly climbing as an activity always involves a deliberate aspect of risk. Sometimes on these safety threads I wonder if some of the posters are deluding themselves to avoid facing this fact.. maybe crochet with safety glasses would be a better choice for their safe activity. In the end, simple lack of concentration in 'safer' terrain seems to be one of the biggest risks for experienced climbers on big routes from the YOSAR analysis of Yosemite accidents. Id like to see 'retain focus' up front in books on good practice.

In reply to Offwidth:

Totally agree. Seems to me a large part of alpine climbing is situations where you can't protect yourself with ropes & gear, either because of slowness or because of soft snow, loose choss or whatever, and it's technically easy enough that you're probably unlikely to fall if you keep your act together - but if you do fall it's going to be really, really bad.

In reply to AlanLittle:

I also agree

What I think may be lacking in some of these risk assessments/best/good/bollocks practice malarky is;

The consequences of something going wrong and the likelihood of it happening.

In reply to Offwidth:


But that's a statement of the obvious to some degree. I'm not sure you can teach someone to maintain focus across the diversity of climbing activities. Obviously in, for example, winter climbing "personal (and partner) management" is central to maintaining focus - drinking a bit, eating some jelly babies, putting your belay jacket on when you're not yet cold can all help keep your brain working properly in another hour or two's time. But I've climbed with folk who get their hands on the top of Stanage and say "cheers! you can take me off now" which sort of strikes me as not maintaining focus but they might say is completely within their assessment of risk and what they are happy with. Perhaps it should just be like the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy and printed in big letters on the front of instruction books and left at that!

In reply to TobyA:
Its not obvious, otherwise all those accidents would not happen. This is how climbing safety advice started and its still worth more than any amount of argument about knots:

“Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step; and from the beginning think what may be the end.”

In reply to john arran:

Point taken John. i suppose that's a limitation of any phrase that sounds like and absolute. I was taking it as "an example of safe practise" but it does come across more as "practise that is always safe". Back to "example of good practise"...?

In reply to Offwidth:

I said that saying "retain focus" is a statement of the obvious, not that how you do it, and particularly how you teach it, is obvious. Rather, those are the opposite.

In reply to AlH:

"Sensible practice"? Then once all you competent, sensible and experienced instructor and guide types are all generally doing something the same way, we can upgrade that advice to "jolly sensible practice".

In reply to Offwidth:

I agree that a more mindful approach is really important. Out on the hills with often less experienced folk and especially in winter I'm always drawing people's attention back to changes in underfoot conditions, changes in consequences of a slip etc. Working on bringing their focus back from the view, their conversation and other things that distract them to where they are, how they are moving and what's going on around them.

In reply to TobyA:
I really don't think it is a statement of the obvious as there are few situations in normal life you need to do this. Distraction is so easy when climbing, interrupted when tying a knot, not stopping when looking at an sudden amazing view, chatting to someone belaying next to you when you partner is leading above...... Some people are safe taken off immediately at the top of Stanage precisely because they are focussing, others much less so. The most common and the most dangerous practices I witness in climbing all have lack of focus as a contributory risk factor, at its worst and silliest when risks should be low. I cant remember ever witnessing a serious problem from something like using a less than ideal knot (even though accidents have happened due to this).
The second most common risk factor I see is technical incompetance/lack of basic skills (lack of focus when others are at risk is arguably incompetance as well). It could be grouped with mindfulness in that the logic of dealing with a risk situation might make one mindful to have the right skills... plenty of climbers indoors or at Stanage most clearly are not.

In reply to Offwidth:
I agree - it's all too common for accidents to occur on "easier" terrain when keeping the guard up would have prevented the problem. The tricky bit comes in avoiding the loss of attention and I'm not sure that an admonition to retain focus is all that useful. The problem is how to ensure that the mind is kept on the task at hand amongst the situational distractions and with all the limitations of the human brain. I'm not sure that we can rely on being able to focus on the precise critical element(s) at every point during the day as circumstances change.

One thing that can help with this is setting good habits so that it's more likely for the right thing to happen automatically at those times when the concentration is elsewhere. To steal TobyA's example of someone wanting to be taken off belay before being safe - it's fine on the vast majority of occasions because the climber's attention is on the job. If you're in the habit of remaining on belay until you're well back from the edge then that habit protects you on the one time in 500 when your brain goes awol and you screw up that last easy move.

So - sure - paying attention, particularly at those times when the situation may not demand it quite so clearly is very important but I think being in the habit of using safe / best / better / jolly sensible practices (unlike the guy's anchor clipping in the first video, for example) is a way to give ourselves some cover when our powers of concentration let us down.

Edit - spelling - not paying attention, obviously...

In reply to AdrianC:

Make some mantras as too often you will come across situations where the habit doesn't work. Climb with better climbers and ask them to critique anything improvable. Train things you dont know well with people who do.

I agree maintaining focus is difficult, especially when facing a combination of cold (or heat) dehdyation, hunger and tiredness. Yet in many ways that risk-focus combination to me is what make climbing so compelling, consuming and rewarding. When you occasionally hit "the zone" its like nothing else exists.

In reply to ModerateMatt:

Speaking more generally, I dislike the phrase "X is best practice". It usually means "X is how I think you should do it, so I'm going to make some kind of pseudo-rule to justify it".

What is better is saying "I believe you should do X because Y". People take things on board more effectively if they get an explanation as to why it is better than what they were doing previously.