UKC

Would be keen to hear people's opinions and experiences on fitness training for 'trekking peaks' (Mont Blanc, Aconcagua, Mera/ Island Peak) etc.
Conventional wisdom seems to be lots of hill walking but given central London is somewhat lacking in hills this isn't to practical (nor do I have a car to drive to some, and let's not talk about public transport).
Doing some general web searching I came across the Big Mountain Training Program by Mountain Tactical Institute (www.mtntactical.com/shop/big-mountain-training-program/). This seems to me to be similar to CrossFit which I understand has something of a bad reputation due to injuries (although I know Kenton Cool is an advocate of this style of training).
Would such a style of training be anymore effective, or suitable than simply running/ swimming 3 or 4 times per week?

In reply to whereisearl:

Not sure how beneficial it would be but I read a book by a city based doctor who trained for Everest by walking up and down the stairs in an office block. I think it would be pretty boring.

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In reply to jasonC abroad:

Interesting you mention that, I have actually stopped taking the lift in my office and use the stairs now instead (admittedly it is only four floors though!).

In reply to whereisearl:

As you will learn when you read Steve House and Scott Johnson's Training for the New Alpinism, there is no real substitute for lots of hill walking. Lots of aerobic mileage of any kind is good to some degree, but more specific is better than less specific.

I work in a forty storey tower and do a few laps of that regularly when I'm training for alpine stuff. Stairs up, lift down to spare the knees. Or the absolute desperate last resort to get some upward training is step-ups for thirty minutes to an hour wirth a heavy rucksack. High boredom threshold and a good playlist essential.

In reply to whereisearl:

Chris brasher trained for long backpacking trips by walking everywhere with a rucksack on with weight in it. Not very exciting, but good training. I'd also recommend never taking a lift and when going upstairs, go two at a time as fast as you can! It's surprising how quick your stamina goes up.

In reply to whereisearl:

Rob Shaul of Mountain Tactical Institute is a former crossfit trainer who moved away from it and switched to doing properly designed specific programmes (instead of random crap with poor form until you puke). I don't know him but have read various websites of his over a few years and he seems pretty sound to me.

In reply to whereisearl: honestly you have no excuse.
1. Running - London is excellent for running. Take advantage of the large parks, Wimbledon common.
2. Gym, particularly stair master
3. Tube or walk to Waterloo Station. Train to Leatherhead or Dorking, do trail runs with big steep hills.

In reply to jonnie3430:

As mentioned above I have now stopped using the elevator in the office, and no longer stand on the right on the escalators on the underground.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Thanks. I have read Steve's book and found it interesting although somewhat unrealistic. My take away thought was the amount of training is great if you are a professional athlete but for a full time professional working in the City it's impossible to get 11 hrs training in a week (perhaps I was misinterpreting the book). I notice he has now launched a website for training: http://www.uphillathlete.com/training-plans/
It seems to me that Steve and Rob take two different approaches to training (Steve more running with the odd weight session, Rob more 'CrossFit' approach).

In reply to wbo:

I wasn't saying I had any excuse. I was asking what approach people thought was better running/ swimming or 'CrossFit' style training.

In reply to whereisearl: ah, ok. Well personally I'd mix it up. I will say tho' that for a city professional 11 hours a week is demanding but far from impossible . That's from personal experience

In reply to wbo:

My point was more it's not possible to go and climb Ben Nevis every weekend, more than there's no options for running.

In reply to whereisearl:

You live in London, you have easy access to all the modes, air included, to go anywhere in the world you like, often at a good price.

Why *not* talk about it?

London's public transport is not perfect, but it is the envy of all of the rest of the UK put together!

In reply to Neil Williams:

Not sure that is particularly practical 4/ 5 times a week for fitness training.

In reply to whereisearl:

What priority are you giving your fitness? If you're making it #1 then move somewhere hilly and give up your job. If it's #1001 then accept you're not going to get very fit and be prepared to suffer a bit on holiday.

Anything you do will be better than nothing, and as others have said, the more uphill weighted walking the better.

In reply to whereisearl:

I think 11 hours a week of training is more than possible if you're really committed and accept that you won't have time for other stuff whilst your training load is at its heaviest.

I've spent the last year getting about 15-20 hours a week of running, walking and strength training in alongside a full time professional job, by walking or running to work and getting a long hill day in at the weekend. My house is a bit of a shit hole and I don't watch any TV, but the training gets done!

In reply to whereisearl:

Indeed not, but I'd expect you could head out to the Chilterns, Cotswolds etc on a spare weekend for minimal cost if you're bored of running through the city.

Here's an idea for you (not ran it, but I have done it as a Scout hike) - train to Tring, run to and up Ivinghoe Beacon then back down to Cheddington for the train back (it's only hourly but there's a pub to wait in). It'd be a decent mostly-trail-with-a-bit-of-road run of about 10 miles to half marathon depending which way you go.

Actually now I've thought of it I fancy a go at that (from the opposite direction)!

There'll be loads of similar opportunities near London - they'd also work for a summer evening when you have light until 10pm.

In reply to whereisearl:


Crossfit is more about all-round strength, isn't it? I find running has more of an effect on my hill fitness than that.

In reply to whereisearl:

It's a bit of a difficult question with loads of variables.

A quick and lazy answer would be some form of aerobic fitness (running/rowing/cycling) for an hour + three times a week, and some general strength program twice a week. Then add some hill walks with weights. I'd forget swimming except for recovery.

Crossfit style stuff can be great too, but I wouldn't bother too much using it for training for walking up big hills.

The Training for the New Alpinism book and Mountain Tactical Institute are both great.

In reply to whereisearl:

http://www.londonmountaineeringclub.com/

Commuting by bike, walking everywhere plus regular trips to the climbing wall seem to work!

BMC clubs offer lots of opportunities for weekends away including hillwalking and are fun.

In reply to whereisearl:


Go back to Training for the New Alpinism and re-read Mark Twight's Chapter TINSTAAFL (p97). Your answer is right there.

11 hours may seem unrealistic but think of it as one hour per working day plus a half day at weekend. Stairs at work or step-ups in the gym during the week, train South Downs or Chilterns and hike up and down the hills at weekends. The most useful cross-training would be to cycle as a means of transport. You don't need to do any running at all.

In reply to whereisearl:

Yeah, I'd agree with your diagnosis of Steve's book too - ironic, given that IIRC he suggests at one point it's aimed at people who have 9-5 jobs and might not be based in the mountains (can't remember the exact page).

My main issue with maintaining mountain fitness in London was keeping the psyche high. Incredibly hard to just run the same old loops on the tarmac week-in, week-out. I've moved away now but still find it difficult.

Another poster recommended getting out to the South Downs or Chilterns on the weekend, and I'd thoroughly recommend this. Either go for a long trail run at a nice easy pace, or go for a long walk with a heavy pack. This has two benefits - firstly, better scenery and far more interesting, and secondly, you can actually pack in some meaningful ascent, which is nigh-on impossible to do in central London.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Thank you for your reply, was the kind of response I was looking for. My understanding (some what limited) was that HIIT (i.e. CrossFit style training) was meant to be good for aerobic fitness.

In reply to JayPee630:

Thanks. How come you would not bother with CrossFit but you find Mountain Tactical Institute to be great? To me they appear to be the same, or very similar styles of training?

Why do you not see any benefit in swimming beyond for recovery?

In reply to flaneur:

Thanks, will re-read that section. As much as I would love to cycle, i do not find the thought of cycling anywhere in central London at all appealing!

In reply to Jasonic:

Cycling in central London is not at all appealing unfortunately, plus my commute is a short 10 minute walk so slightly pointless. Not to mention the fact a swim in the Artic would be warmer than the showers in our office!

Have looked in to LMC before, will have another look.

In reply to alexm198:

Thanks. Ha 9-5 would be nice 8-8 if it's quite!

Completely agree re: weekends and getting out in to the hills as much as possible, I managed to average one weekend away in the Lakes, Peaks or Breccon per month last spring-autumn although was reliant on friends for transport. It's more how to fill in the gaps in the week and when not able to escape london (whether generic cardio or something CrossFit-esq would be more beneficial).

In reply to whereisearl:

The stairs at Covent Garden tube?

In reply to whereisearl:

I might be misunderstanding, but I thought HIIT and Crossfit were not the same thing. Crossfit might contain a bit of HIIT, but it's mostly about conditioning, lifting weights, good form etc, not aerobic fitness. There's nowt wrong with that, of course, but it doesn't sound like it would achieve what you want to train for. Indeed, too much work with weights and you'll just get heavier, which isn't great for walking up hills!

If you want aerobic fitness and you don't just want to go running, boot camps run by BMF and the likes work well for a bit of variety. There are tons of those in London as they are quite fashionable, and training with others does help motivation for me at least.

In reply to whereisearl:

Don't forget to exercise your thumbs by flicking your wad! Loadsamoney!

In reply to whereisearl:

No they're not the same. MTI uses some of the methodology that CFT does but in a much better and well programmed context. There's an article on their site about how they're different, have a look.

MTI has loads of specific programs, CFT has one really (although any serious CFT athlete does something different to the CFT general training).

Swimming bears no resemblance to the things your training for. Running and walking up hills do. (And it's heavily technique orientated.)

Either follow some kind of edited TFTNA program or buy a program from the MTI. Both would work well.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Stairs up is the best city leg exercise for alpine peaks. I've found even with just 8 floors, it's very helpful. Then it's all intervals and intensity, not endurance.

Stair machines are just not the same (most of them anyway).

Down: Using the lift to go down is old-school. Recent research is that impact on the knees is actually _good_ for their long-term health and strength.
. . (Not to mention good training for getting down off big mountains).

I always jog down taking two stairs with each stride. I wear a glove (with palm covered with renewable duct tape) on my outside hand to control speed.

For years I've been jogging down the stairs in my apartment building carrying a 30 kg backpack. Never caused me any problem (though of course I worked up to that weight carefully incrementally).

Ken

In reply to whereisearl:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=652278&v=1#x8422093

Try putting 20kg (weights, medicine balls etc.) in a rucksack, set the treadmill to max incline (max 15% on the one I use.....) and aim for 400m of height gain. I think this works out at 2.7km on the mill at 15% from basic trig..... at a little over 5kph this takes just over half an hour - bearable in terms of boredom factor..... certainly feels quite like slogging up to a hut..... did this roughly once a week for the first few months of last year before heading to the Alps in July, and helped to get me up my final 4000er. Felt it gave me a good start on getting properly mountain fit once you're there, even if it was mainly psychological in knowing that I'd put in some (reasonably) specific training. To be honest, I think it's really hard / nearly impossible to get Alps-fit without climbing in the Alps....but you can do quite a bit to give you the 'entry-level' fitness beforehand.

In reply to whereisearl:


No. CrossFit is good for training for CrossFit. I say this not as a criticism, but CrossFit is of little use if you're actually training for something specific, precisely because training requires specificity, and CrossFit is intentionally about general conditioning. A typical CrossFit class is about 45-60 minutes long including a warmup, which is really not enough to train the aerobic systems you'll need for trekking. That said, it's better than nothing.

The reality is that if you want to both work in the City and live an active outdoor lifestyle including training for high altitude trekking peaks, something is going to have to give.

In reply to chris bedford:


Ah, that dreaded climbers curse eh Chris, known to make strong men cower pathetically in a corner and women weep piteously?

"Its all good training!"


Or as the old saying has it, the best training for mountains is, er, mountains. And there is NO training for altitude other than altitude.

I have in the past recommended, if people have the time, going to the high side valleys off the Aosta valley where there are very high bivouac huts and great vertical intervals, so you can get both some mountain fitness and aclimitisation before trying proper alpinism. But of course, you need as you say, a base fitness to start with.

Climbing on Pillar helps, but requires a week of warm dry weather.

In reply to the above: Well if that's the case then nobody in the UK would ever get anything done. The mountains are too small, with very few having a 1000m plus of quick, hikable ascent , and nothing has any usable 'altitude'.

Obviously I think that's a lot of bosh. I'm not saying that working in the city and getting fit is going to be easy, but it is possible although you won't be watching much telly. For a start can you run before, or too work. Then you work, then you do something in the evening, and you try to get regular hill days in the weekends. Sometimes you'll get to big hills , sometimes only to stuff like the downs, but you just need a good attitude and a liking for work. Hours on a stepmaster isn't going to be exciting, but it will certainly get the job done for fitness as well as anything short of Ben Nevis.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Seconded, and not kidding. Or, obviously enough, another station with a similar or greater number of steps that's nearer you -- for example, Hampstead apparently has a monstrous 320 steps:

http://www.geofftech.co.uk/tube/facts.html

Plus a weighted rucksack, if laps of the stairs on their own aren't enough to destroy you. And you have the option of using the lifts to go down if you want to reduce stress on your knees.

I've been thinking of using them myself to build overall outdoor stamina when I'm stuck in London.

Not glamorous, and soul-destroyingly boring (an mp3 player with good music/podcasts/whatever is more-or-less essential for this type of stuff). But I'd think it would be horribly effective, and about as close to weighted hill walking as you can get without an actual hill.

In reply to slab_happy:

Given the current climate, doing laps up the stairs and down the lifts in a tube station with a big ass rucksack will probably atract the wrong kind of attention. The armed police type...

In reply to whereisearl:

well, not for the peaks, but my wife and I hiked the tour de Monte Rose last summer independently. Our first day involved a vertical mile gain. In preparation for the hike we did some long days in the mountains in Wales (more to sort out kit than train fitness) and the south Downs, but main fitness came from our usual regimen of cycling/running to and from work and also around our area. I was and still do about 1.5 hrs per day exercise with a bit more on the weekends. we live in London, full time jobs with kids and both in our mid 40s. I was exercising every day, rest days were taking it easy rather than none. Find a hill and do laps of it or plan a hilly route if laps are boring.

In reply to whereisearl:

Hi there,

Just sent you an email

In reply to all:

Thanks for all the comments, some very helpful input. My current thoughts are to do something around the following:

Running;
Stairs (I live in a 38 floor building, but the only staircase is the fire exit so need to investigate how accessible/ practical this is);
Uphill walking on the treadmill with weighted pack (as suggested by chris bedford); and
Weekends in the hills as and when possible.

In reply to kenr:





I'm guessing you're not in your 50's. Report back in many years' time and let us know how it went for you.

In reply to whereisearl:

IMHO there's no real substitute for a sustained effort for training for things like that - so you're unlikely to find an answer that doesn't take much time or effort. Personally, and in the absence of hills, get on a bike and do around 150 miles a week, every week, at an effort pace - that rules out long bimbles at the weekend. If youy're only ten minutes walk from the office, get some miles in, get home, shower and ride easily to the office. Do similar in the evening.

In reply to whereisearl: i reckon, when im on good shape , to hike a vertical 600m every hour, or 400. With a big pack. I have the luck to be able to drive to 1000m plus climbed pretty quickly but thats not happening in London. So, 1 HR, 2 hrs on a stairmaster. Once every week or so in there somewhere. No climbing wall?

The trouble with cycling is the downhill.