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Hi everyone,
The kernel of a plan's been starting to form in my head for a while now and it'd be a great help if you'd all pick ruddy great big holes in it so I don't fall flat on my face in the execution.
I'm in the final year of sixth form before heading off to uni, which means I'll have at least a three month gap between the end of A2 and starting my course. My plan is to work for the first couple of months, then go to the Alps for a few weeks with the saved cash.
Not much too it. So, issues (this bits pretty hefty, bear with me- or not):
1) inexperience: I only started climbing relatively recently, six months or so ago, and have only been trad climbing maybe four times- a glance at my profile will show almost no experience, though I'm pretty happy leading HVD so far. I've done a fair amount of hillwalking, with around 10 days in winter with crampons and axe, but could definitely be stronger on things like navigation.
- solutions: primarily, I'll be trying to go climbing whenever possible with a friend or a club, which will hopefully get me confident with trad and I'd also like to attend a Conville course at Pen Y Gent, the Alpine Introduction, to ensure I've got at least an idea of the requisite glacier skills, etc.
2) logistics: I'm currently thinking of getting a cheap ish flight there and back and camping in the valley. This would entail using public transport. Is this a viable method, considering I then won't have transport in the early morning and evening to get to and from routes? Can anyone give me a ballpark figure for two weeks in a camping site? Lifts are also extortionate I hear, it's not an option to jog everywhere?
3) partners: I can't guarantee I'll be able to rope (ha) someone into coming with me- I assume it's almost impossible to find partners while there, unless there's some system?? If this is the case I may have to consider a far shorter, guided trip (which would also be the case if I couldn't attend a Conville or similar course beforehand).
I'm hoping to be able to save a good £1500 or so this summer, will this cover everything?
Thanks in advance for any replies and go weapons free please, any criticism helpful!
Post edited at 21:57
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In reply to ShortLock:
If you can find a competent partner then don't worry about the lack of inexperience - find someone who knows what they're doing to learn from, everyone has to start somewhere.
Personally I find ability level far less important than being organised, safe and enjoyable to be with in partners!
I spent £500 on a 3 week Chamonix trip in 2014, £350 for 11 days in 2015 and £400 going to the Pryenees in 2016. Which was way better then the Alps anyway.
So I'd imagine that £1500 would stretch quite far, especially camping. Have a good look at the lift pass deals - might as well take advantage of them, and save your knee cartilidge!
If you can find a competent partner then don't worry about the lack of inexperience - find someone who knows what they're doing to learn from, everyone has to start somewhere.
Personally I find ability level far less important than being organised, safe and enjoyable to be with in partners!
I spent £500 on a 3 week Chamonix trip in 2014, £350 for 11 days in 2015 and £400 going to the Pryenees in 2016. Which was way better then the Alps anyway.
So I'd imagine that £1500 would stretch quite far, especially camping. Have a good look at the lift pass deals - might as well take advantage of them, and save your knee cartilidge!
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In reply to ShortLock:
Firstly - good for you! The drive to do something, and willingness to hear critique will carry you far.
My advice, as someone who was in those shoes once:
1. A partner will make the whole thing waay more enjoyable, as well as enabling things you wouldn't do on your own.
2. The Conville course (applicaiton open 1 March) sounds ideal for you. It will make your first forays much safer and, crucially, can be a good source of partners - others in the same situation will be on the course.
3. Rocking up in the Alps and hoping to find a suitable partner is pretty unlikely. The Zermatt campsite is the closest thing to a hook-up site for climbing Brits, but you are disadvantaged by your age and inexperience. Most people will already have partners and will be unwilling to become responsible (in their eyes) for an inexperienced person. If you are under 18 this also raises legal responsibilities. Therefore getting a partner sorted beforehan or through a course is paramount.
4. The Alps can be pretty full-on; it's not a playground. For your first trip outside the UK, you might consider (with a partner) the Pyrennees. Similar skills but slightly more manageable scale and generally slightly better weather.
Overall I'd suggest you go on the Conville course (or similar). Ask them for the contacts for everyone else on the course beforehand -and get in touch with people re. their plans after the course finishes.
Also, if you have a Uni planned, and are fairly confident of getting the grades, then ask the Uni club if they have a trip this summer you might join.
Finally, groups such as OTC are involved in Unis and also run interesting trips; you might consider approaching them.
Hope that helps. If nothing turns up, don't just steam out to Chamonix and hope - you will either have a miserable time or be tempted to solo something you shouldn't. A mountaineering career is not one season.
Finally, early in a mountaineering career your ability is sufficient to get you into situations that your ability is insufficient to get you out of. Watch for this and you will enjoy a lifetime of wonder in the mountains.
Firstly - good for you! The drive to do something, and willingness to hear critique will carry you far.
My advice, as someone who was in those shoes once:
1. A partner will make the whole thing waay more enjoyable, as well as enabling things you wouldn't do on your own.
2. The Conville course (applicaiton open 1 March) sounds ideal for you. It will make your first forays much safer and, crucially, can be a good source of partners - others in the same situation will be on the course.
3. Rocking up in the Alps and hoping to find a suitable partner is pretty unlikely. The Zermatt campsite is the closest thing to a hook-up site for climbing Brits, but you are disadvantaged by your age and inexperience. Most people will already have partners and will be unwilling to become responsible (in their eyes) for an inexperienced person. If you are under 18 this also raises legal responsibilities. Therefore getting a partner sorted beforehan or through a course is paramount.
4. The Alps can be pretty full-on; it's not a playground. For your first trip outside the UK, you might consider (with a partner) the Pyrennees. Similar skills but slightly more manageable scale and generally slightly better weather.
Overall I'd suggest you go on the Conville course (or similar). Ask them for the contacts for everyone else on the course beforehand -and get in touch with people re. their plans after the course finishes.
Also, if you have a Uni planned, and are fairly confident of getting the grades, then ask the Uni club if they have a trip this summer you might join.
Finally, groups such as OTC are involved in Unis and also run interesting trips; you might consider approaching them.
Hope that helps. If nothing turns up, don't just steam out to Chamonix and hope - you will either have a miserable time or be tempted to solo something you shouldn't. A mountaineering career is not one season.
Finally, early in a mountaineering career your ability is sufficient to get you into situations that your ability is insufficient to get you out of. Watch for this and you will enjoy a lifetime of wonder in the mountains.
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In reply to ShortLock:
Return coach out to Chamonix cost about £100 when I did a conville course, it's a pretty rubbish journey but will get you there, depending how much kit you're taking I would recommend flying if possible, I stayed at the Argentiere campsite as recommended by the course organisers for my full stay, if you stay on after conville courses in Chamonix you can quite easily pick up partners, it's a bit like a university hall for the duration of the Conville courses.
If you buy a multipass you get multiple days for much cheaper, in effect you can go up the Midi lift for the same price as the index lift.
Return coach out to Chamonix cost about £100 when I did a conville course, it's a pretty rubbish journey but will get you there, depending how much kit you're taking I would recommend flying if possible, I stayed at the Argentiere campsite as recommended by the course organisers for my full stay, if you stay on after conville courses in Chamonix you can quite easily pick up partners, it's a bit like a university hall for the duration of the Conville courses.
If you buy a multipass you get multiple days for much cheaper, in effect you can go up the Midi lift for the same price as the index lift.
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In reply to JJL:
First of all thanks everyone, this is pure gold- I'm glad to see this is looking achievable! Maybe not as harebrained as I first thought.
Good to hear that price shouldn't be an issue, Jack, I'll definitely look at lift passes if I can afford them.
How did you find the Pyrenees? I can't think of any courses run there off the top of my head, but being more beginner friendly is a big plus.
Which are the big alternatives to Chamonix for Alpine stuff, anywhere in Germany? German is perhaps my least pitiful language, so anywhere in Ger/Austria that might be a goer?
JJL- brilliant advice on partners (you too Spenser), I hadn't thought of exploiting the Conville link. The Conville course is looking increasingly crucial; Spenser, which course did you do and what did you think of it- I was initially looking at the Welsh based one at PyG, but if there's a beginners level one in the Alps that's two bird with one stone. Is there any specific preparation you did that was very helpful? Which are the best alternatives if I can't get onto Conville?
I am 18 which will be helpful in terms of solo travel, legal issues with responsibility, etc.
The coach option for travel looks like a good one- if interminable. 20 hours!
First of all thanks everyone, this is pure gold- I'm glad to see this is looking achievable! Maybe not as harebrained as I first thought.
Good to hear that price shouldn't be an issue, Jack, I'll definitely look at lift passes if I can afford them.
How did you find the Pyrenees? I can't think of any courses run there off the top of my head, but being more beginner friendly is a big plus.
Which are the big alternatives to Chamonix for Alpine stuff, anywhere in Germany? German is perhaps my least pitiful language, so anywhere in Ger/Austria that might be a goer?
JJL- brilliant advice on partners (you too Spenser), I hadn't thought of exploiting the Conville link. The Conville course is looking increasingly crucial; Spenser, which course did you do and what did you think of it- I was initially looking at the Welsh based one at PyG, but if there's a beginners level one in the Alps that's two bird with one stone. Is there any specific preparation you did that was very helpful? Which are the best alternatives if I can't get onto Conville?
I am 18 which will be helpful in terms of solo travel, legal issues with responsibility, etc.
The coach option for travel looks like a good one- if interminable. 20 hours!
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In reply to ShortLock:
Might be worth looking at joining something like the Austrian Alipine Club UK and attending one of their meets https://aacuk.org.uk/
Also good for insurance (which you will want anyway).
Might be worth looking at joining something like the Austrian Alipine Club UK and attending one of their meets https://aacuk.org.uk/
Also good for insurance (which you will want anyway).
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In reply to ShortLock:
Any advice I give wil be out of date but thought I'd post to encourage you to go for it. I did similar and had a great time in 1988, I had no plan and managed to get up some great routes, I went by bus and with the impetuousness of youth never planned anything other than the Conville course at the start (Jon from this site was an aspirant guide giving the course at the time). Finding partners was pretty easy on the Pierre d'Ortaz campsite but that's no longer there but then the Internet is! Good luck
Any advice I give wil be out of date but thought I'd post to encourage you to go for it. I did similar and had a great time in 1988, I had no plan and managed to get up some great routes, I went by bus and with the impetuousness of youth never planned anything other than the Conville course at the start (Jon from this site was an aspirant guide giving the course at the time). Finding partners was pretty easy on the Pierre d'Ortaz campsite but that's no longer there but then the Internet is! Good luck
Post edited at 07:52
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In reply to ShortLock:
Thanks for all the further replies, I'm taking notes.
Austrian Alpine Club looks good, anyone know how it compares to the BMC insurance deals?
All advice still appreciated!
Thanks for all the further replies, I'm taking notes.
Austrian Alpine Club looks good, anyone know how it compares to the BMC insurance deals?
All advice still appreciated!
In reply to ShortLock:
Check out the Italian side of Mont Blanc, much cheaper and IMO also nicer.
CB
Check out the Italian side of Mont Blanc, much cheaper and IMO also nicer.
CB
In reply to cb294:
Are you sure you don't mean much quieter rather than cheaper?
IMHO prices are better on the French side especially just down the road from Cham at Les Houches or Sallanche.
> Check out the Italian side of Mont Blanc, much cheaper and IMO also nicer.
> CB
Are you sure you don't mean much quieter rather than cheaper?
IMHO prices are better on the French side especially just down the road from Cham at Les Houches or Sallanche.
In reply to ShortLock:
Hi, your experience is almost nil. I honestly think you should put a lot a time into climbing in Britain and learning all the basic skills. I can't believe the encouragement people are giving you. The Alps are not for beginners. You have the time and money, use it to learn the skills.Then in a few years with your experience and lots of climbing mates you can give the Alps a proper go.
Hi, your experience is almost nil. I honestly think you should put a lot a time into climbing in Britain and learning all the basic skills. I can't believe the encouragement people are giving you. The Alps are not for beginners. You have the time and money, use it to learn the skills.Then in a few years with your experience and lots of climbing mates you can give the Alps a proper go.
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In reply to Rick Graham:
Last time I was there camping in Val Veni was cheaper than in Chamonix, also cafes, food, etc.... Might be different now, especially if you stay a bit further from town in the French side.
Guess your info is more current than mine (five years-ish)
CB
Last time I was there camping in Val Veni was cheaper than in Chamonix, also cafes, food, etc.... Might be different now, especially if you stay a bit further from town in the French side.
Guess your info is more current than mine (five years-ish)
CB
In reply to cb294:
Good to know. It always used to be very expensive to camp on the Italian side.
Having said that one needs to realise that they only have full camp sites for a few weeks a year.
> Last time I was there camping in Val Veni was cheaper than in Chamonix, also cafes, food, etc.... Might be different now, especially if you stay a bit further from town in the French side.
Good to know. It always used to be very expensive to camp on the Italian side.
Having said that one needs to realise that they only have full camp sites for a few weeks a year.
In reply to Climbingspike:
They can be dangerous but plenty of French, Swiss, Italians etc take their first steps into mountaineering in the Alps
> The Alps are not for beginners.
They can be dangerous but plenty of French, Swiss, Italians etc take their first steps into mountaineering in the Alps
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In reply to ShortLock:
Just to say good luck, and good on you for such a well thought through and mature post! Have fun!
Just to say good luck, and good on you for such a well thought through and mature post! Have fun!
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In reply to Doug:
Bingo. If you lived there the alps would be your beginner local mountain range rather than the Peak District or whatever
Good luck to the OP.
Bingo. If you lived there the alps would be your beginner local mountain range rather than the Peak District or whatever
Good luck to the OP.
Post edited at 09:27
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In reply to Climbingspike:
On the continent no one starts climbing in the Black forest before daring to go to the Alps. Just choose your routes wisely, especially leaving yourself escape options if the weather turns on you, make use of the judgement of other climbers you meet at the huts, don´t bite off more than you can chew, and you will be fine even as a beginner.
A glacier safety course is a good thing, though, if you don´t have someone in your party able to teach you the essential crevasse rescue and crampon skills.
CB
On the continent no one starts climbing in the Black forest before daring to go to the Alps. Just choose your routes wisely, especially leaving yourself escape options if the weather turns on you, make use of the judgement of other climbers you meet at the huts, don´t bite off more than you can chew, and you will be fine even as a beginner.
A glacier safety course is a good thing, though, if you don´t have someone in your party able to teach you the essential crevasse rescue and crampon skills.
CB
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In reply to Doug:
Hi Doug, of course they do, but why travel 1000 miles to learn the basics and have no one to learn with. The Frech, Swiss etc must also learn on small valley crags.
Hi Doug, of course they do, but why travel 1000 miles to learn the basics and have no one to learn with. The Frech, Swiss etc must also learn on small valley crags.
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In reply to Climbingspike:
Lots of continentals start with easy mountain routes, more or less high altitude walks, rather than with rock climbing. Remember, there is much more to the Alps than Chamonix, including many areas with summits you can more or less walk to.
Lots of continentals start with easy mountain routes, more or less high altitude walks, rather than with rock climbing. Remember, there is much more to the Alps than Chamonix, including many areas with summits you can more or less walk to.
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In reply to Climbingspike:
Because the alps are more beautiful, inspiring, and challenging that anywhere in the UK. The food and drink are better too.
> Hi Doug, of course they do, but why travel 1000 miles to learn the basics and have no one to learn with.
Because the alps are more beautiful, inspiring, and challenging that anywhere in the UK. The food and drink are better too.
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In reply to Doug:
Agreed, but that is not what the OP is talking about. His plan is about camping in the valley, using lifts etc. It sounds like chamonix , others seem to think this with there advise. He talks about having done a tiny amount of trad and used axe, crampons, I'm guessing he is looking at something more technical than a high mountain walk.
Agreed, but that is not what the OP is talking about. His plan is about camping in the valley, using lifts etc. It sounds like chamonix , others seem to think this with there advise. He talks about having done a tiny amount of trad and used axe, crampons, I'm guessing he is looking at something more technical than a high mountain walk.
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In reply to Climbingspike:
Thanks Climbingspike, criticism is what I need and you make a fair point.
What experience do you think I'd be best off gaining to make the Alps a long term target then?
I hope to be cragging fairly regularly to develop my actual climbing and ropework, as well as getting out as often as possible on the North York Moors (pretty immediately accessible from where I live) and the Lakes to get roughly hill fit and improve my navigation. Once I get to uni I'll be exploiting the clubs and opportunities there, which should be a big help to- I think JJL mentioned this.
Thanks everyone for the continued advice and well wishes.
ETA: sorry Spike, just noticed your later post. I'm primarily wanting to get on a Conville course with the BMC to learn skills like glacier safety- it's described as an introduction and includes things like ice axe arrests, which I'm already pretty familiar with. What I attempt after that would depend on partners I can make through the course or find to join me out there later- I do have a couple in mind, fingers crossed. I'm naturally cautious (or as much as any 18 year old males are), so won't be launching myself up (possibly off) Les Dru or similar.
Thanks Climbingspike, criticism is what I need and you make a fair point.
What experience do you think I'd be best off gaining to make the Alps a long term target then?
I hope to be cragging fairly regularly to develop my actual climbing and ropework, as well as getting out as often as possible on the North York Moors (pretty immediately accessible from where I live) and the Lakes to get roughly hill fit and improve my navigation. Once I get to uni I'll be exploiting the clubs and opportunities there, which should be a big help to- I think JJL mentioned this.
Thanks everyone for the continued advice and well wishes.
ETA: sorry Spike, just noticed your later post. I'm primarily wanting to get on a Conville course with the BMC to learn skills like glacier safety- it's described as an introduction and includes things like ice axe arrests, which I'm already pretty familiar with. What I attempt after that would depend on partners I can make through the course or find to join me out there later- I do have a couple in mind, fingers crossed. I'm naturally cautious (or as much as any 18 year old males are), so won't be launching myself up (possibly off) Les Dru or similar.
Post edited at 11:12
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In reply to MG:
Having climbed and skied in them for the last 45 years, I completely agree, but I would not advise a beginner to start there.
Having climbed and skied in them for the last 45 years, I completely agree, but I would not advise a beginner to start there.
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In reply to ShortLock:
I was in the same position as you 20 years ago. I went with a friend and we ran everywhere - I did very little actual climbing but got my head around the scale of the alps. I then went off to Uni as fit as I've ever been and much better prepped for my first uni trip. If you can get a conville cse under your belt now then go for it. Don't be put off but heed the good advice on here and treat with caution - it's a serious playground.
I was in the same position as you 20 years ago. I went with a friend and we ran everywhere - I did very little actual climbing but got my head around the scale of the alps. I then went off to Uni as fit as I've ever been and much better prepped for my first uni trip. If you can get a conville cse under your belt now then go for it. Don't be put off but heed the good advice on here and treat with caution - it's a serious playground.
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In reply to ShortLock:
You have so much time, no need to rush. Build up your skills steadily and try to meet lots of other climbers, clubs,uni, climbing walls. I think you will know when an Alps trip is on.
Your development plan is great and I am sure it will expand. There is so much really fantastic climbing to had here in Britain. With experience and higher technical skills ,there so many routes to do rather than a high altitude walk.
You have so much time, no need to rush. Build up your skills steadily and try to meet lots of other climbers, clubs,uni, climbing walls. I think you will know when an Alps trip is on.
Your development plan is great and I am sure it will expand. There is so much really fantastic climbing to had here in Britain. With experience and higher technical skills ,there so many routes to do rather than a high altitude walk.
In reply to cb294:
All true, but also generally much more serious and less appropriate for a beginner.
(Courmayeur itself is VERY far from cheap!)
> Check out the Italian side of Mont Blanc, much cheaper and IMO also nicer.
All true, but also generally much more serious and less appropriate for a beginner.
(Courmayeur itself is VERY far from cheap!)
Post edited at 11:58
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In reply to spenser:
Flights and a transfer are only about £30 more, and if you have 1.5k to burn amount to very little extra. Don't get the bus, its horrid.
> Return coach out to Chamonix cost about £100 when I did a conville course, it's a pretty rubbish journey but will get you there, depending how much kit you're taking I would recommend flying if possible, I stayed at the Argentiere campsite as recommended by the course organisers for my full stay, if you stay on after conville courses in Chamonix you can quite easily pick up partners, it's a bit like a university hall for the duration of the Conville courses.
> If you buy a multipass you get multiple days for much cheaper, in effect you can go up the Midi lift for the same price as the index lift.
Flights and a transfer are only about £30 more, and if you have 1.5k to burn amount to very little extra. Don't get the bus, its horrid.
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In reply to ShortLock:
At this stage in your career it's certainly worth developing a sense of whether people you're considering teaming up with are trustworthy or not. You can give people the benefit of the doubt as long as you can detect complete charlatans and poseurs but you do need to be on your guard, sad to say, about people who may be wanting to put you into territory that they aren't competent to deal with themselves.
Really good luck with the idea, wish I was young enough to be able to do what you are intending.
At this stage in your career it's certainly worth developing a sense of whether people you're considering teaming up with are trustworthy or not. You can give people the benefit of the doubt as long as you can detect complete charlatans and poseurs but you do need to be on your guard, sad to say, about people who may be wanting to put you into territory that they aren't competent to deal with themselves.
Really good luck with the idea, wish I was young enough to be able to do what you are intending.
Post edited at 12:20
In reply to ShortLock:
Learning to sit quietly for long long boring trips is a life skill that will serve you well
Can't offer much by way of alps advise but good luck with whatever you get up, enjoy it and don't be too proud to turn back when your head and your heart don't agree, it'll still be there next year, the trick is making sure you are.
jk
> The coach option for travel looks like a good one- if interminable. 20 hours!
Learning to sit quietly for long long boring trips is a life skill that will serve you well
Can't offer much by way of alps advise but good luck with whatever you get up, enjoy it and don't be too proud to turn back when your head and your heart don't agree, it'll still be there next year, the trick is making sure you are.
jk
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In reply to Simon4:
I agree, but you could place your base camp a little further down the valley.
Anyway I do not see why a beginner would start their alpine career in the Mont Blanc area (other than that this is first bit you hit if you come by car form the UK, and many British outfits run their courses there).
If it has to be France, what about the Vanoise? Otherwise, the Zillertal or Oetztal Alps, the Ortler group, .... If you really want higher summits, the Saas Valley would offer lots of easier stuff (and the lifts are free if you camp in the valley, even though everything else is expensive).
CB
I agree, but you could place your base camp a little further down the valley.
Anyway I do not see why a beginner would start their alpine career in the Mont Blanc area (other than that this is first bit you hit if you come by car form the UK, and many British outfits run their courses there).
If it has to be France, what about the Vanoise? Otherwise, the Zillertal or Oetztal Alps, the Ortler group, .... If you really want higher summits, the Saas Valley would offer lots of easier stuff (and the lifts are free if you camp in the valley, even though everything else is expensive).
CB
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In reply to Climbingspike:
Off topic, I know, but I really don't see why. The alps have well marked paths, huts and plenty of easy but inspiring peaks that are easily accessible just above. All quite controlled if care is taken and progression to harder stuff is easy if things go well. Compare with Scotland, say, which is in many ways much wilder, more remote and serious for even fairly mundane peaks. Sure, highlight that biting off more than you can chew is unwise, but suggesting going at all is bad idea doesn't make sense to me.
> Having climbed and skied in them for the last 45 years, I completely agree, but I would not advise a beginner to start there.
Off topic, I know, but I really don't see why. The alps have well marked paths, huts and plenty of easy but inspiring peaks that are easily accessible just above. All quite controlled if care is taken and progression to harder stuff is easy if things go well. Compare with Scotland, say, which is in many ways much wilder, more remote and serious for even fairly mundane peaks. Sure, highlight that biting off more than you can chew is unwise, but suggesting going at all is bad idea doesn't make sense to me.
Post edited at 12:40
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In reply to MG:
And I don't see any sense in telling a complete novice it's ok to go and wing it in any Alps.
And I don't see any sense in telling a complete novice it's ok to go and wing it in any Alps.
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In reply to ShortLock:
A few suggestions for ways to learn:
Why don't you join a local climbing or mountaineering club between now and then - there might well be folk in that who want to partner up for the alps or could at least take you out in Scotland, wales or equivalent to help you gain mountain skills
Have a think about whether anybody in your family would help you fund the "learning skills from a mountain guide" part, that way you can learn to do things the right way. You need the right pitch which makes them feel that they are providing you with the essential skills that will set you up to achieve your dreams in the alps without killing yourself. It sounds a bit lame to just ask for money but think about objectives, contact some guides and see what you would need in terms of time/cash to get a proper introduction then pitch it. Any guide that you contact should be able to help you with ammunition as to why its essential (and rewarding) to learn properly. Another option is a weeks course with someone like jagged globe or similar.
There may also be local charities that may fund this sort of enterprise, its surprising where cash can come from
You could also start your summer with a cheaper course in Scotland then take it to the alps but this seems a little less adventurous....
I am sure you are already devouring as much mountaineering literature as you can get your hands on?
A few suggestions for ways to learn:
Why don't you join a local climbing or mountaineering club between now and then - there might well be folk in that who want to partner up for the alps or could at least take you out in Scotland, wales or equivalent to help you gain mountain skills
Have a think about whether anybody in your family would help you fund the "learning skills from a mountain guide" part, that way you can learn to do things the right way. You need the right pitch which makes them feel that they are providing you with the essential skills that will set you up to achieve your dreams in the alps without killing yourself. It sounds a bit lame to just ask for money but think about objectives, contact some guides and see what you would need in terms of time/cash to get a proper introduction then pitch it. Any guide that you contact should be able to help you with ammunition as to why its essential (and rewarding) to learn properly. Another option is a weeks course with someone like jagged globe or similar.
There may also be local charities that may fund this sort of enterprise, its surprising where cash can come from
You could also start your summer with a cheaper course in Scotland then take it to the alps but this seems a little less adventurous....
I am sure you are already devouring as much mountaineering literature as you can get your hands on?
Post edited at 13:57
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In reply to Climbingspike:
???
"highlight that biting off more than you can chew is unwise"
> I thought you were.
???
"highlight that biting off more than you can chew is unwise"
In reply to ShortLock:
There's loads of alpine stuff in Austria and Switzerland if you'd rather deal with life in German - there seems to be a massive belief amongst UK climbers that Cham is the only place with alpine climbing yet that's patently untrue. Austria is likely to be the cheapest of the 3 areas. German alps won't be snowy in summer as they're not high enough. One consideration to make is that if you go in summer you'll need to look at 3000m+ peaks to get snow&ice, and thus enter the realm of altitude sickness which you either cope with or don't.
> Which are the big alternatives to Chamonix for Alpine stuff, anywhere in Germany? German is perhaps my least pitiful language, so anywhere in Ger/Austria that might be a goer?
There's loads of alpine stuff in Austria and Switzerland if you'd rather deal with life in German - there seems to be a massive belief amongst UK climbers that Cham is the only place with alpine climbing yet that's patently untrue. Austria is likely to be the cheapest of the 3 areas. German alps won't be snowy in summer as they're not high enough. One consideration to make is that if you go in summer you'll need to look at 3000m+ peaks to get snow&ice, and thus enter the realm of altitude sickness which you either cope with or don't.
3
In reply to ShortLock:
I was in a very similar situation to you when I first went to the Alps, I had some UK walking and scrambling experience and was happy leading easy trad routes. I was a bit nervous that I wouldn't be experienced enough but I had a great time and I'm still here to waste time on forums! I'd say that easy Alpine mountaineering generally involves a completely different set of knowledge and skills to that used in the UK, being a fantastic sport or trad climber won't help you climb even the easiest of routes safely! Being fairly fit and armed with basic climbing skills (placing protection, belaying etc.) should be the foundation you need to start your journey.
So...
1) I did the alpine prep course at plas-y-brenin before I went and it was fantastic. I did this because I wasn't sure if I would get a space on the Conville course. I did happen to get a place on the Conville course as well and it was useful, however I felt I learnt more technical skills and knowledge in 2 days in the UK than 3 days in the Alps. However, the Conville does have the advantage of being a very safe way to take your first steps in the Alps as you're with a guide. I would definitely recommend getting on some sort of course or having someone experienced show you the ropes before you go so you have the chance to practice in the UK. Things like moving together can easily be practiced on grade 3 scrambles in the UK (Cneifon arete for example) and you can also practice crevasse rescues no problem.
2) As people have already said, there are lots of easier places to go in the Alps than Chamonix, however if you're out there without a car then Chamonix is a breeze logistically due to the great (free) public transport that will take you to the lifts and shops. There's always a chance you might find partners on the Argentiere campsite too.
3) I'd definitely recommend going out there either as a guided punter (pricey) or with some people you know and trust. The Alps can be a horrifically dangerous place to be and you and your climbing partner will have each others lives in each others hands the entire time. It would be wise to find someone with similar aspirations and/or someone who has some experience and is happy to mentor you but not get you killed pushing you.
My top tip for your first time out there would be to not expect to get anything great done. Take your time, the routes will be there the year after, just make sure you are too. You will make plenty of mistakes first time, so make sure it's on easier routes and gradually build up from there. You might not come away with a massive tick list but you will come away with A) Your life and B) A load of experience and knowledge that will set you up to get ticking some classics the next summer.
I hope this has been useful? Feel free to ask away if anything is unclear!
Matt
I was in a very similar situation to you when I first went to the Alps, I had some UK walking and scrambling experience and was happy leading easy trad routes. I was a bit nervous that I wouldn't be experienced enough but I had a great time and I'm still here to waste time on forums! I'd say that easy Alpine mountaineering generally involves a completely different set of knowledge and skills to that used in the UK, being a fantastic sport or trad climber won't help you climb even the easiest of routes safely! Being fairly fit and armed with basic climbing skills (placing protection, belaying etc.) should be the foundation you need to start your journey.
So...
1) I did the alpine prep course at plas-y-brenin before I went and it was fantastic. I did this because I wasn't sure if I would get a space on the Conville course. I did happen to get a place on the Conville course as well and it was useful, however I felt I learnt more technical skills and knowledge in 2 days in the UK than 3 days in the Alps. However, the Conville does have the advantage of being a very safe way to take your first steps in the Alps as you're with a guide. I would definitely recommend getting on some sort of course or having someone experienced show you the ropes before you go so you have the chance to practice in the UK. Things like moving together can easily be practiced on grade 3 scrambles in the UK (Cneifon arete for example) and you can also practice crevasse rescues no problem.
2) As people have already said, there are lots of easier places to go in the Alps than Chamonix, however if you're out there without a car then Chamonix is a breeze logistically due to the great (free) public transport that will take you to the lifts and shops. There's always a chance you might find partners on the Argentiere campsite too.
3) I'd definitely recommend going out there either as a guided punter (pricey) or with some people you know and trust. The Alps can be a horrifically dangerous place to be and you and your climbing partner will have each others lives in each others hands the entire time. It would be wise to find someone with similar aspirations and/or someone who has some experience and is happy to mentor you but not get you killed pushing you.
My top tip for your first time out there would be to not expect to get anything great done. Take your time, the routes will be there the year after, just make sure you are too. You will make plenty of mistakes first time, so make sure it's on easier routes and gradually build up from there. You might not come away with a massive tick list but you will come away with A) Your life and B) A load of experience and knowledge that will set you up to get ticking some classics the next summer.
I hope this has been useful? Feel free to ask away if anything is unclear!
Matt
3
In reply to ShortLock:
Lots of good advice from others. Something I haven't noticed mentioned that may help is the following:
Buy the Bruce Goodlad book 'Alpine Mountaineering'. Great book, lots of practical advice ( and also happens to be a top bloke).
You can learn and practice many of the skills in the UK, then when you get to the alpine areas of your choice you can practice them again. The book also has suggestions for your first alpine routes in a variety of areas, with full descriptions of what to expect.
Have fun
Lots of good advice from others. Something I haven't noticed mentioned that may help is the following:
Buy the Bruce Goodlad book 'Alpine Mountaineering'. Great book, lots of practical advice ( and also happens to be a top bloke).
You can learn and practice many of the skills in the UK, then when you get to the alpine areas of your choice you can practice them again. The book also has suggestions for your first alpine routes in a variety of areas, with full descriptions of what to expect.
Have fun
1
In reply to Robbie Blease:
Hi Robbie, I've replied now.
Thanks again for all of the replies; I'm still keen to go but I'll definitely be sure to be very cautious.
I've been reading a fair amount of mountain books, but more Kirkpatrick and Bonatti, Heinrich Harrer, etc, than instruction manuals. Any recommendations would be great- Bruce Goodland's Alpine Mountaineering is now on my list.
Hi Robbie, I've replied now.
Thanks again for all of the replies; I'm still keen to go but I'll definitely be sure to be very cautious.
I've been reading a fair amount of mountain books, but more Kirkpatrick and Bonatti, Heinrich Harrer, etc, than instruction manuals. Any recommendations would be great- Bruce Goodland's Alpine Mountaineering is now on my list.
1
In reply to ShortLock:
Here's my hap'orth: in our late 20s my brother and I were both quite experienced British mountaineers with plenty of Scottish winter walking under or belts so we decided to go to the French Alps. We ended up camping and waiting several days for good weather so that we could go and have a look at Mont Blanc but the more we found out about it the more our lack of knowledge and experience became apparent. We also knew nothing about how and where to go. So we drove over to Switzerland, lured by the vision of Swiss mountaineering families happily bagging various easy "horns". Then we realised we would need insurance so we went and bought policies from a big Swiss insurer. Eventually we found ourselves at the foot of a mountain called the Zinalrothorn, which looked easy enough in a book we had. We walked up and spent the night at a refuge then set off in the dawn, realising after an hour that we had gone the wrong way so we had to retrace our steps and walk past the hut, much to the amusement of some locals, and up the right route, by then far too late. Then I discovered that the water pipe, from which I had filled our bottles the night before, was actually the drain from the chalet kitchen sink so we had 75cl of soapy water each. I felt bitter that a bunch of the local climbers had sat and watched us filling up and said nothing. We climbed up some easy snow, tied together with a rope because we thought that would be a good idea but with no knowledge of how to arrest a fall beyond some vague idea of sticking the axe in the snow and wrapping the rope around it!
Next we found ourselves at the foot of a rocky gully, which we climbed easily, arriving at the final rock summit cone. It looked terribly serious and intimidating and we were both by then well out of our mental comfort zone so we decided to retreat, which turned into a nightmare because by then the sun was warming up the ice and stones began flying past us, making an evil buzzing noise as they spun. We retreated thoroughly chastened by the experience and wondering how we were ever going to gain any Alpine skills. A couple of days later we walked up a glacier in fog, realising too late that the bands of softer snow we were crossing were actually infilled crevasses. Another night at a chalet and the following day we reached the summit of the Aletschorn, which was an easy mixed scramble up a spur. Having reached 4200 metres we were exhilarated and the walk back down was one of the highlights of my climbing career.
But generally what we learned was, as others have written above, the Alps are BIG and much more serious and committing than British hills, requiring experience and technique that you won't learn if you stay in Britain. You need to go on a course or go climbing with somebody experienced to learn those skills and develop that mental attitude and toughness as well as the Alpine "lore" that will stand you in good stead.
Here's my hap'orth: in our late 20s my brother and I were both quite experienced British mountaineers with plenty of Scottish winter walking under or belts so we decided to go to the French Alps. We ended up camping and waiting several days for good weather so that we could go and have a look at Mont Blanc but the more we found out about it the more our lack of knowledge and experience became apparent. We also knew nothing about how and where to go. So we drove over to Switzerland, lured by the vision of Swiss mountaineering families happily bagging various easy "horns". Then we realised we would need insurance so we went and bought policies from a big Swiss insurer. Eventually we found ourselves at the foot of a mountain called the Zinalrothorn, which looked easy enough in a book we had. We walked up and spent the night at a refuge then set off in the dawn, realising after an hour that we had gone the wrong way so we had to retrace our steps and walk past the hut, much to the amusement of some locals, and up the right route, by then far too late. Then I discovered that the water pipe, from which I had filled our bottles the night before, was actually the drain from the chalet kitchen sink so we had 75cl of soapy water each. I felt bitter that a bunch of the local climbers had sat and watched us filling up and said nothing. We climbed up some easy snow, tied together with a rope because we thought that would be a good idea but with no knowledge of how to arrest a fall beyond some vague idea of sticking the axe in the snow and wrapping the rope around it!
Next we found ourselves at the foot of a rocky gully, which we climbed easily, arriving at the final rock summit cone. It looked terribly serious and intimidating and we were both by then well out of our mental comfort zone so we decided to retreat, which turned into a nightmare because by then the sun was warming up the ice and stones began flying past us, making an evil buzzing noise as they spun. We retreated thoroughly chastened by the experience and wondering how we were ever going to gain any Alpine skills. A couple of days later we walked up a glacier in fog, realising too late that the bands of softer snow we were crossing were actually infilled crevasses. Another night at a chalet and the following day we reached the summit of the Aletschorn, which was an easy mixed scramble up a spur. Having reached 4200 metres we were exhilarated and the walk back down was one of the highlights of my climbing career.
But generally what we learned was, as others have written above, the Alps are BIG and much more serious and committing than British hills, requiring experience and technique that you won't learn if you stay in Britain. You need to go on a course or go climbing with somebody experienced to learn those skills and develop that mental attitude and toughness as well as the Alpine "lore" that will stand you in good stead.
5
In reply to Rigid Raider:
Your mention of going out in winter is important - I'd been out loads in fairly serious winter conditions in the Lakes and Scotland before I ever set foot in the Alps and it's probably the best preparation you can get without going to the Alps themselves. For Alpine rock conditioning a spring/early summer trip to the Cuillin would be a good beginning to gain confidence at moving over difficult and sometimes hazardous terrain
Your mention of going out in winter is important - I'd been out loads in fairly serious winter conditions in the Lakes and Scotland before I ever set foot in the Alps and it's probably the best preparation you can get without going to the Alps themselves. For Alpine rock conditioning a spring/early summer trip to the Cuillin would be a good beginning to gain confidence at moving over difficult and sometimes hazardous terrain
In reply to wercat:
Alternatively, I found my alpine experience very useful when I moved to Scotland as a student (after all Tom Patey considered the Himalaya to be useful training -"Gasherbrum, Masherbrum, Lhotse Shar - all good training for dark Lochnagar")
Alternatively, I found my alpine experience very useful when I moved to Scotland as a student (after all Tom Patey considered the Himalaya to be useful training -"Gasherbrum, Masherbrum, Lhotse Shar - all good training for dark Lochnagar")
In reply to streapadair:
You might be right, I assumed the quote that Google found for me (patey lochnagar training) was correct - my copy of One Man's Mountains is in storage back in Scotland.
You might be right, I assumed the quote that Google found for me (patey lochnagar training) was correct - my copy of One Man's Mountains is in storage back in Scotland.
In reply to mattdennies:
Thanks Matt, that's all great advice.
Interesting that you found the PyB corse more useful than the one in the Alps, I'd kind of assumed the opposite would be true.
I'm tied to Chamonix location wise by the Conville course, but if I don't get onto this it would be very worth looking elsewhere, I agree. Good to know I should cope without a car too.
The partner situation is already looking brighter!
Thanks again, Matt.
Thanks Matt, that's all great advice.
Interesting that you found the PyB corse more useful than the one in the Alps, I'd kind of assumed the opposite would be true.
I'm tied to Chamonix location wise by the Conville course, but if I don't get onto this it would be very worth looking elsewhere, I agree. Good to know I should cope without a car too.
The partner situation is already looking brighter!
Thanks again, Matt.
1
In reply to ShortLock:
Despite what some have said there are many ways a novice climber / alpinist could develop their skills and knowledge in Chamonix if that is where you are heading. Some examples could include:
1) Lots of valley single and multipitch sports climbs to further develop your movement and climbing skills, some in amazing situations. Great especially when higher up conditions or weather are poor.
2) Some awesome alpine walking such as the two Balcons to get a feel for the area.
3) Some scrambling and V Diff routes in the Aiguilles Rouges with no glaciers but snow patches varying in size from season to season. The snow patches are an excellent place to practice setting up and testing snow anchors.
4) As long as you are happy going down ladders (many do rope up for these ) the Mer de Glace is a great spot to learn and practice moving skills on ice, placing ice screws, crevasse rescue and setting up top or bottom ropes on some short steep ice. Bear in mind that most glaciers will require snow anchors rather than ice screws during crevasse rescue, good idea to practice again on a snowy glacier ( make sure everyone is safe though ).
5) Once you've got some crevasse rescue skills routes from around the Albert Premier are a good place to develop skills. Aiguille du Tour is a glacial walk with some scrambling to the summit. Tete Blanche and onto the Petite Fourche is similar.
6) Lots of shorter routes from the Torino hut too.
Another book you may find useful is 'easy ascents in the Mont Blanc range' by Burnier and Potard.
Despite what some have said there are many ways a novice climber / alpinist could develop their skills and knowledge in Chamonix if that is where you are heading. Some examples could include:
1) Lots of valley single and multipitch sports climbs to further develop your movement and climbing skills, some in amazing situations. Great especially when higher up conditions or weather are poor.
2) Some awesome alpine walking such as the two Balcons to get a feel for the area.
3) Some scrambling and V Diff routes in the Aiguilles Rouges with no glaciers but snow patches varying in size from season to season. The snow patches are an excellent place to practice setting up and testing snow anchors.
4) As long as you are happy going down ladders (many do rope up for these ) the Mer de Glace is a great spot to learn and practice moving skills on ice, placing ice screws, crevasse rescue and setting up top or bottom ropes on some short steep ice. Bear in mind that most glaciers will require snow anchors rather than ice screws during crevasse rescue, good idea to practice again on a snowy glacier ( make sure everyone is safe though ).
5) Once you've got some crevasse rescue skills routes from around the Albert Premier are a good place to develop skills. Aiguille du Tour is a glacial walk with some scrambling to the summit. Tete Blanche and onto the Petite Fourche is similar.
6) Lots of shorter routes from the Torino hut too.
Another book you may find useful is 'easy ascents in the Mont Blanc range' by Burnier and Potard.
2
1
In reply to Mark Haward:
Some good advice there, definitely still plenty of easy of stuff to do in Chamonix, and with the lift systems you can get more done in a shorter space of time.
Definitely recommend getting on the Mer de Glace, it was the first place I wore crampons. With there being so many different steepness of slopes to walk up and down you can quickly practise lots of different types of crampon techniques in a safe environment, as well as practising crevasse rescue.
I'd also agree around Le Tour is a good place for your first proper mountain route and Aiguille Rouge is perfect for learning rope work.
Don't forget to have a look at the new Rockfax Chamonix guide, it's huge! I found lots of easier and forgotten routes in it that aren't in the usual guidebooks. Just be aware that as these routes see less traffic they could be a bit more chossy, route finding less clear without other groups on them and possibly a lack of tat.
Some good advice there, definitely still plenty of easy of stuff to do in Chamonix, and with the lift systems you can get more done in a shorter space of time.
Definitely recommend getting on the Mer de Glace, it was the first place I wore crampons. With there being so many different steepness of slopes to walk up and down you can quickly practise lots of different types of crampon techniques in a safe environment, as well as practising crevasse rescue.
I'd also agree around Le Tour is a good place for your first proper mountain route and Aiguille Rouge is perfect for learning rope work.
Don't forget to have a look at the new Rockfax Chamonix guide, it's huge! I found lots of easier and forgotten routes in it that aren't in the usual guidebooks. Just be aware that as these routes see less traffic they could be a bit more chossy, route finding less clear without other groups on them and possibly a lack of tat.
1
1
In reply to Mark Haward:
Thanks, Mark.
Part of the appeal of the Alps is the conditions even in summer- living in Yorkshire I wouldn't have a snowflakes chance in hell (or Yorkshire) of getting anything done over the summer. I've heard of the Mer de Glace from a friend who's spent a few weeks in the Alps (the ladders were mentioned with a shudder!), so that sounds like a good place to mess around and cement the skills learned on the course before heading off to try our first route.
The course notes from the BMC mention it being easier to find a guidebook once in Chamonix, but is it worth picking one up ahead of time to scope out routes, huts, etc?
Thanks, Mark.
Part of the appeal of the Alps is the conditions even in summer- living in Yorkshire I wouldn't have a snowflakes chance in hell (or Yorkshire) of getting anything done over the summer. I've heard of the Mer de Glace from a friend who's spent a few weeks in the Alps (the ladders were mentioned with a shudder!), so that sounds like a good place to mess around and cement the skills learned on the course before heading off to try our first route.
The course notes from the BMC mention it being easier to find a guidebook once in Chamonix, but is it worth picking one up ahead of time to scope out routes, huts, etc?
In reply to Rigid Raider:
Lovely description, great self-mocking honesty. Also wise words to the aspirants.
Lovely description, great self-mocking honesty. Also wise words to the aspirants.
In reply to Mark Haward:
Indeed. Great to see such a constructive, helpful response, given how bitchy and spiteful this forum can be on other topics.
> Lots of good advice from others.
Indeed. Great to see such a constructive, helpful response, given how bitchy and spiteful this forum can be on other topics.
3
In reply to ShortLock:
Certainly some quite mixed advice so far, figured I'd give my thoughts.
First off I wish I was in your position; although I got into the mountains early, whilst at uni I never capitalised and built on it, so am now back playing catch up so to speak. It's great that you seem to have a drive and a longer term plan.
Right, so, the alps. IMO, ignore anyone saying it's not a suitable place to learn. It's a huge place, with a massive variety of terrain and difficulty. You can get well above 3,000m on essentially walking paths without going near a glacier if you just want some altitude and a bit of exposure, or you can toddle to a glacier you can virtually get a cable car to and just "mess around" learning stuff there. I personally first went when I was 10 (well, ignoring the part when I was a baby and lived there) and obviously didn't do anything technical, but started to get feel for the place, the altitude etc, and have been going back regularly since. I often see groups of Swiss "preteens" doing glacier courses with a guide.
And when I say mess around, to me that's exactly what you should do. Especially if you're on a course, really push it till it fails (assuming of course you know you're backed up onto something bomber), as it's the only way you'll really know when it will fail. I've become confident in snow anchors not through numbers alone, but by going on a glacier, planting some anchors I know won't fail, and then abseiling off ones I suspect will. A course is something I think is great for this reason, as you can mess around knowing someones got an eye on you.
As for your plan, just because your course might be in Chamonix that doesn't mean that's where you have to stay. It's certainly a grand place to be, but public transport is very good around a lot of the alps with many of the valleys having camp sites or even hostels is you fancied a little luxury. Lifts are expensive, but the rest of the transport isn't half bad in my experience, and many of the lifts I'm familiar are able to bypass with only an hour or so hiking (obviously there's equally many this doesn't apply to, but always something worth checking). Finding partners over there isn't something I've ever tried.
Don't forget to budget for any gear you may need. Not knowing what you have obviously this might be pointless advice, but if you're looking to do some stuff outside the bounds of a course then as I'm sure you're aware, gear ain't cheap. Often a certain amount can be hired, but seeing as you clearly seem keen on sticking with it that's just a false economy.
Lastly, do some Via Ferrata. They're awesome, something there isn't really anything equivalent to in the UK, and shouldn't be missed. If you end up in the Saas area as someone here recommended (which btw, is a lovely area to be) then the Jägihorn one is, IMO, sublime. Get's you up to 3,200m, surrounded by some beautiful alpine peaks, with a great sense of exposure, but equally is something that requires relatively little knowledge or gear.
Certainly some quite mixed advice so far, figured I'd give my thoughts.
First off I wish I was in your position; although I got into the mountains early, whilst at uni I never capitalised and built on it, so am now back playing catch up so to speak. It's great that you seem to have a drive and a longer term plan.
Right, so, the alps. IMO, ignore anyone saying it's not a suitable place to learn. It's a huge place, with a massive variety of terrain and difficulty. You can get well above 3,000m on essentially walking paths without going near a glacier if you just want some altitude and a bit of exposure, or you can toddle to a glacier you can virtually get a cable car to and just "mess around" learning stuff there. I personally first went when I was 10 (well, ignoring the part when I was a baby and lived there) and obviously didn't do anything technical, but started to get feel for the place, the altitude etc, and have been going back regularly since. I often see groups of Swiss "preteens" doing glacier courses with a guide.
And when I say mess around, to me that's exactly what you should do. Especially if you're on a course, really push it till it fails (assuming of course you know you're backed up onto something bomber), as it's the only way you'll really know when it will fail. I've become confident in snow anchors not through numbers alone, but by going on a glacier, planting some anchors I know won't fail, and then abseiling off ones I suspect will. A course is something I think is great for this reason, as you can mess around knowing someones got an eye on you.
As for your plan, just because your course might be in Chamonix that doesn't mean that's where you have to stay. It's certainly a grand place to be, but public transport is very good around a lot of the alps with many of the valleys having camp sites or even hostels is you fancied a little luxury. Lifts are expensive, but the rest of the transport isn't half bad in my experience, and many of the lifts I'm familiar are able to bypass with only an hour or so hiking (obviously there's equally many this doesn't apply to, but always something worth checking). Finding partners over there isn't something I've ever tried.
Don't forget to budget for any gear you may need. Not knowing what you have obviously this might be pointless advice, but if you're looking to do some stuff outside the bounds of a course then as I'm sure you're aware, gear ain't cheap. Often a certain amount can be hired, but seeing as you clearly seem keen on sticking with it that's just a false economy.
Lastly, do some Via Ferrata. They're awesome, something there isn't really anything equivalent to in the UK, and shouldn't be missed. If you end up in the Saas area as someone here recommended (which btw, is a lovely area to be) then the Jägihorn one is, IMO, sublime. Get's you up to 3,200m, surrounded by some beautiful alpine peaks, with a great sense of exposure, but equally is something that requires relatively little knowledge or gear.
4
1
In reply to ShortLock:
There are loads of guidebooks because the area has so much climbing. Some are very expensive, some are very hard to get hold of and are like gold dust. Thinking economy I would suggest you start with getting a map and then the book I mentioned above.
The latest Rockfax guide to Chamonix could be very helpful as it has awesome photos and covers some of the valley crags, mid mountain routes and high routes although, as a novice, many of the routes would be ones to aspire to in the - hopefully not too distant - future. A guidebook I'd strongly recommend at this stage is the Mont Blanc Classic and Plaisir guide by Marca Romelli. Lots of potential mountain routes for you to think about doing in there with very good maps, photos and information. All of these are available in the UK in English so you can read up, dream, be inspired, get a little afraid and also realise that you need several more life times to do all the routes you might like to do. They retail around £20 - £25 I think.
When in Cham, you can peruse the various bookshops to see more guidebooks. The Crag Climbs in Chamonix covers all the valley crags and may be worthwhile but be aware, many novices spend their first season staring at the mountains in awe and fear and spend all their time valley cragging rather than getting up high.
The ladders look spectacular but are fine. They even have pigtails you can clip a rope into to protect each other if you wish and could always be done via ferrata style if you are unsure - but try not get in the way of others. The valley crag Les Gaillands, has some ladders which you could practice your technique on - although they are a little more rickety than the Mer de Glace access ones.
If you want any more info feel free to e mail. See you out there!
There are loads of guidebooks because the area has so much climbing. Some are very expensive, some are very hard to get hold of and are like gold dust. Thinking economy I would suggest you start with getting a map and then the book I mentioned above.
The latest Rockfax guide to Chamonix could be very helpful as it has awesome photos and covers some of the valley crags, mid mountain routes and high routes although, as a novice, many of the routes would be ones to aspire to in the - hopefully not too distant - future. A guidebook I'd strongly recommend at this stage is the Mont Blanc Classic and Plaisir guide by Marca Romelli. Lots of potential mountain routes for you to think about doing in there with very good maps, photos and information. All of these are available in the UK in English so you can read up, dream, be inspired, get a little afraid and also realise that you need several more life times to do all the routes you might like to do. They retail around £20 - £25 I think.
When in Cham, you can peruse the various bookshops to see more guidebooks. The Crag Climbs in Chamonix covers all the valley crags and may be worthwhile but be aware, many novices spend their first season staring at the mountains in awe and fear and spend all their time valley cragging rather than getting up high.
The ladders look spectacular but are fine. They even have pigtails you can clip a rope into to protect each other if you wish and could always be done via ferrata style if you are unsure - but try not get in the way of others. The valley crag Les Gaillands, has some ladders which you could practice your technique on - although they are a little more rickety than the Mer de Glace access ones.
If you want any more info feel free to e mail. See you out there!
In reply to ShortLock:
Glad to see the enthusiasm and essentially a sensible approach. Don't you know someone from school with something of the same ambitions? The Conville course seems to be a must. But after it and you meet up with someone sympa, you might think of going to somewhere like Arolla, Saas for some relatively easy mountaineering and experience. The thing is to climb in the real mountains, not messing around on trivia like the Aiguilles Rouges, unless weather forces you. Camping or bivvying up high is also good to save going up and down all the time. And get fit, very fit and tough. Running around and over the Welsh hills or Lakes is useful training in all conditions, not just when it's fine. And learn to climb in boots. Finances, if the sum you speak about is indeed forthcoming, should mean a pretty good trip. Good luck.
Glad to see the enthusiasm and essentially a sensible approach. Don't you know someone from school with something of the same ambitions? The Conville course seems to be a must. But after it and you meet up with someone sympa, you might think of going to somewhere like Arolla, Saas for some relatively easy mountaineering and experience. The thing is to climb in the real mountains, not messing around on trivia like the Aiguilles Rouges, unless weather forces you. Camping or bivvying up high is also good to save going up and down all the time. And get fit, very fit and tough. Running around and over the Welsh hills or Lakes is useful training in all conditions, not just when it's fine. And learn to climb in boots. Finances, if the sum you speak about is indeed forthcoming, should mean a pretty good trip. Good luck.
1
In reply to Dheorl:
Thanks for this, really great in depth advice.
Leaving Chamonix after the course seems like a good idea, but is it possible without incurring significant further travel costs- in both money and time? Is there anywhere easily accessible from Chamonix by train or bus, etc, that's far more suitable for beginners?
Thanks for the advice jcw. Annoyingly my best friend has actually spent a season in the Alps and is a very experienced climber, but is already planning a trip with her dad. I am now in touch with someone as a potential partner (if they'll have me), so that's all looking good.
Fitness is definitely something I'll be focusing on. Is it best to just get as much mileage as possible running and climbing, or should I be looking at running/walking with weight and bodyweight routines, etc?
Mark, re guide books- perfect, thanks! By the sounds of things a lot of the manual type books list some easy beginner routes, but this is all really useful to know closer to the time- it's all getting written down.
Thanks for this, really great in depth advice.
Leaving Chamonix after the course seems like a good idea, but is it possible without incurring significant further travel costs- in both money and time? Is there anywhere easily accessible from Chamonix by train or bus, etc, that's far more suitable for beginners?
Thanks for the advice jcw. Annoyingly my best friend has actually spent a season in the Alps and is a very experienced climber, but is already planning a trip with her dad. I am now in touch with someone as a potential partner (if they'll have me), so that's all looking good.
Fitness is definitely something I'll be focusing on. Is it best to just get as much mileage as possible running and climbing, or should I be looking at running/walking with weight and bodyweight routines, etc?
Mark, re guide books- perfect, thanks! By the sounds of things a lot of the manual type books list some easy beginner routes, but this is all really useful to know closer to the time- it's all getting written down.
In reply to ShortLock:
I started my first trip to the Alps in Arolla & then moved to Chamonix after a couple of weeks (I'd saved what seemed a small fortune to me - around £150 but this was 1976). Took about half a day hitchhiking. But it would be easy (but not so cheap) by train & postbus. Saas Fee is a bit further but just as easy.
I started my first trip to the Alps in Arolla & then moved to Chamonix after a couple of weeks (I'd saved what seemed a small fortune to me - around £150 but this was 1976). Took about half a day hitchhiking. But it would be easy (but not so cheap) by train & postbus. Saas Fee is a bit further but just as easy.
In reply to ShortLock:
I didn't literally mean running. No the idea is to get out and learn to move efficiently with a typical alpine weight sack, preferably with some scrambles, in all conditions. I had the luck of having Ron James as my mentor and we used to do some really, well I described it as vicious, but perverse things in outlandish conditions. It certainly toughened me up. But if you have someone who is prepared to go out with you, do semi-climbing routes in boots with a rope to get up then hills, learning to belay speedily around natural protection and moving together without faffing around. And my friend, in the old days most British Alpinists used to walk up to avoid the costs of uphill transport. Try hitchhiking, it's all part of the experience. If you've got a rope on your sack in the Alpine areas there will pretty certainly be someone sympa who'll give you a lift.
I didn't literally mean running. No the idea is to get out and learn to move efficiently with a typical alpine weight sack, preferably with some scrambles, in all conditions. I had the luck of having Ron James as my mentor and we used to do some really, well I described it as vicious, but perverse things in outlandish conditions. It certainly toughened me up. But if you have someone who is prepared to go out with you, do semi-climbing routes in boots with a rope to get up then hills, learning to belay speedily around natural protection and moving together without faffing around. And my friend, in the old days most British Alpinists used to walk up to avoid the costs of uphill transport. Try hitchhiking, it's all part of the experience. If you've got a rope on your sack in the Alpine areas there will pretty certainly be someone sympa who'll give you a lift.
In reply to ShortLock:
Hi Orange, we all have been through the same phase! Some tips, in addition to those already mentioned (e.g. partner & some Alpine course, like the Conville course).
(1) I'd go for the Austrian Alpine Club: not only is the insurance a good deal, you also get a good discount staying in Alpine Club huts (SAC, CAI, CAF). It is likely that in many places you get an additional discount being still 'youth'.
(2). An overnight stay in a hut is often cheaper than a cable car ride...., also, starting from a hut is usually less busy than starting from a cable car (there being more huts than cable cars - luckily). Also allows you really early starts: because you're a beginner, you will waste time, so you better start early on the day.
(3) you need to check this but in Swiss SAC huts, you can bring your own food, and can cook it in the Winter Room: if there's no Winter Room, the warden will have to cook it for you. At least this worked when I was a student 25 yrs ago. Saves you masses of money - I had my cheapest EVER climbing holiday in the Swiss Alps: about £250 for a 10 day trip. yes, it was frugal, but hey.
(3) Another cheap way is to look for the bivouacs - bring your own food & thin sleeping bag- there are usually old blankets around;
(3) In many French huts, there's usually a 'picnic room', where you can cook your own food, if you bring a wee stove & pans. Again, saves you lots of money.
(4) Avoid Chamonix, if you can. It's so busy, and most climbs are very serious, so you have a big chance to be disappointed, or feel just totally intimidated by everyone else. There's a lot much easier, and safer but great stuff elsewhere, look for F-facile or PD - peu difficile.
Some ideas:
* Wildstrubel & Balmhorn, near Kandersteg, Bernese Oberland;
* traverse of Aletsch Glacier (I did Kandersteg to Grimsel Pass in a week when I was 18 - great trip);
* Bishorn, near Zinal, Valais;
* Gran Paradiso; Italy;
* many easy 3000-4000 m peaks from Zermatt & Saas Fee, such as Alphubel, Strahlhorn, Allalin Horn. Once your fit & acclimatised, the Dom is simply great.
(5) Once you're in the Alps, you can usually get around with bus and hitch hiking.
have a good time, but keep it safe!
Hi Orange, we all have been through the same phase! Some tips, in addition to those already mentioned (e.g. partner & some Alpine course, like the Conville course).
(1) I'd go for the Austrian Alpine Club: not only is the insurance a good deal, you also get a good discount staying in Alpine Club huts (SAC, CAI, CAF). It is likely that in many places you get an additional discount being still 'youth'.
(2). An overnight stay in a hut is often cheaper than a cable car ride...., also, starting from a hut is usually less busy than starting from a cable car (there being more huts than cable cars - luckily). Also allows you really early starts: because you're a beginner, you will waste time, so you better start early on the day.
(3) you need to check this but in Swiss SAC huts, you can bring your own food, and can cook it in the Winter Room: if there's no Winter Room, the warden will have to cook it for you. At least this worked when I was a student 25 yrs ago. Saves you masses of money - I had my cheapest EVER climbing holiday in the Swiss Alps: about £250 for a 10 day trip. yes, it was frugal, but hey.
(3) Another cheap way is to look for the bivouacs - bring your own food & thin sleeping bag- there are usually old blankets around;
(3) In many French huts, there's usually a 'picnic room', where you can cook your own food, if you bring a wee stove & pans. Again, saves you lots of money.
(4) Avoid Chamonix, if you can. It's so busy, and most climbs are very serious, so you have a big chance to be disappointed, or feel just totally intimidated by everyone else. There's a lot much easier, and safer but great stuff elsewhere, look for F-facile or PD - peu difficile.
Some ideas:
* Wildstrubel & Balmhorn, near Kandersteg, Bernese Oberland;
* traverse of Aletsch Glacier (I did Kandersteg to Grimsel Pass in a week when I was 18 - great trip);
* Bishorn, near Zinal, Valais;
* Gran Paradiso; Italy;
* many easy 3000-4000 m peaks from Zermatt & Saas Fee, such as Alphubel, Strahlhorn, Allalin Horn. Once your fit & acclimatised, the Dom is simply great.
(5) Once you're in the Alps, you can usually get around with bus and hitch hiking.
have a good time, but keep it safe!
1
In reply to Maarten2:
Wow! Thanks Maarten, masses of good info there.
I'm having to reassess huts and bivvies. I'd kind of dismissed them as expensive (bivvy gear/hut prices), but this didn't take into account the early starts need and the various cost savings you've mentioned above. What kind of sleeping bag rating would be needed for a summer alpine bivvy?
Wow! Thanks Maarten, masses of good info there.
I'm having to reassess huts and bivvies. I'd kind of dismissed them as expensive (bivvy gear/hut prices), but this didn't take into account the early starts need and the various cost savings you've mentioned above. What kind of sleeping bag rating would be needed for a summer alpine bivvy?
In reply to ShortLock:
Hi Orange,
Pleasure. I realise my post was confusing about the bivouacs, i.e. the difference between a bivvy in the open and a bivouac hut . There are many bivouac huts in the Alps, especially in the Italian Alps. They are a bit like Scottish bothies, except much cleaner. Typically place for 6-8 people or so. In Italian bivouac huts , there may be some blankets, but with lots of holes in them: in that case a light 1 kg sleeping bag will suffice. I did once a complete 7-day trek around the Gran Paradiso massif, staying only in bivak huts: great trip, and very good to learn navigating....(Thinking about it, that must have been my cheapest holiday, including a great hitch hike across the St Bernhard pass in a Jaguar. But then my climbing partner was good looking...).
In Switzerland, a named 'Biwak' marked on the map maybe a bit bigger, and may actually have a stove & pots & pans (like "Mittelaletsch Bivak"). In proper Swiss bivaks huts, there will be plenty of blankets, and I would only take a liner.
You can also of course bivvy out yourself, but then you need a bivvy bag and a 3-4 season bag, depending how hardy you are (I'm not!). In quieter areas (i.e NOT near Cham...!!) you can also often camp out; above 2000 m, this is usually no bother, if you find a quiet spot. Italians are in these things much more tolerant than Swiss....
Another tip: once you've done your Conville course, and plan to do something: most Alpine villages have a guide office, and most are (reasonably) happy to discuss your plans with you. It's perfectly fine to ask if route x or y is in condition, or if there has been rock fall / or changes in the glacier or glacier approach. They should certainly now what the state of the bivak huts are. If there's not guide office, the local gear shop is another potential source of info.
One really frugal tip of a free-ish meal: look out for middle-aged group struggling to get to the hut. If they're struggling, such as stopping a lot on the way up, they likely haven't acclimatised yet, so they won't be hungry. Seat yourself around them, and eat a meagre soup & dry bread, and chat them up a bit. Then you scrounge all their left overs (managed to pull that one off once...when we had truly ran out of food). Enjoy!
Hi Orange,
Pleasure. I realise my post was confusing about the bivouacs, i.e. the difference between a bivvy in the open and a bivouac hut . There are many bivouac huts in the Alps, especially in the Italian Alps. They are a bit like Scottish bothies, except much cleaner. Typically place for 6-8 people or so. In Italian bivouac huts , there may be some blankets, but with lots of holes in them: in that case a light 1 kg sleeping bag will suffice. I did once a complete 7-day trek around the Gran Paradiso massif, staying only in bivak huts: great trip, and very good to learn navigating....(Thinking about it, that must have been my cheapest holiday, including a great hitch hike across the St Bernhard pass in a Jaguar. But then my climbing partner was good looking...).
In Switzerland, a named 'Biwak' marked on the map maybe a bit bigger, and may actually have a stove & pots & pans (like "Mittelaletsch Bivak"). In proper Swiss bivaks huts, there will be plenty of blankets, and I would only take a liner.
You can also of course bivvy out yourself, but then you need a bivvy bag and a 3-4 season bag, depending how hardy you are (I'm not!). In quieter areas (i.e NOT near Cham...!!) you can also often camp out; above 2000 m, this is usually no bother, if you find a quiet spot. Italians are in these things much more tolerant than Swiss....
Another tip: once you've done your Conville course, and plan to do something: most Alpine villages have a guide office, and most are (reasonably) happy to discuss your plans with you. It's perfectly fine to ask if route x or y is in condition, or if there has been rock fall / or changes in the glacier or glacier approach. They should certainly now what the state of the bivak huts are. If there's not guide office, the local gear shop is another potential source of info.
One really frugal tip of a free-ish meal: look out for middle-aged group struggling to get to the hut. If they're struggling, such as stopping a lot on the way up, they likely haven't acclimatised yet, so they won't be hungry. Seat yourself around them, and eat a meagre soup & dry bread, and chat them up a bit. Then you scrounge all their left overs (managed to pull that one off once...when we had truly ran out of food). Enjoy!
In reply to ShortLock:
I should just add to Maarten's comment about camping out: More of a problem than you might imagine in some areas. It's possible, and often not a problem, but try and make sure you check where the army bases are. Although it may sound like something straight out of James Bond they build them literally in the mountains. The other problem with the army is they like just cruising around for helicopter landing practise, finding awkward spots to land and take off again. If you happen to be camping on the only flat spot of ground for miles around they were hoping to land on you might be in for an unexpected alarm call (they start early).
It should be said both these occurrences are pretty unlikely, but equally both things that I've personally witnessed in one form or another and something to have a good "polite dumb foreigner" act prepared for.
I should just add to Maarten's comment about camping out: More of a problem than you might imagine in some areas. It's possible, and often not a problem, but try and make sure you check where the army bases are. Although it may sound like something straight out of James Bond they build them literally in the mountains. The other problem with the army is they like just cruising around for helicopter landing practise, finding awkward spots to land and take off again. If you happen to be camping on the only flat spot of ground for miles around they were hoping to land on you might be in for an unexpected alarm call (they start early).
It should be said both these occurrences are pretty unlikely, but equally both things that I've personally witnessed in one form or another and something to have a good "polite dumb foreigner" act prepared for.
1
In reply to Maarten2:
Brilliant, thanks again Maarten. Lots of really useful stuff there.
Also, Dheorl- thank you very much, again something I was totally unaware of
Brilliant, thanks again Maarten. Lots of really useful stuff there.
Also, Dheorl- thank you very much, again something I was totally unaware of
Learn to cook. It will save you a lot of cash and people will want to travel / climb with you. When I was a teenager working and studying at same time I had very little money. Making decent meals myself and understanding the chemistry of cooking made me way much healthier as well because you get the idea of you nutrition and control that you eat much better.
And generally I think eating well on longer expedition is the key to morale.
Have fun!
And generally I think eating well on longer expedition is the key to morale.
Have fun!
1
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