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Hi folks,
I'm heading up to FW next weekend. And thinking of doing Tower Ridge. Looking at the weather the conditions i suspect it will be marginal, which from experience I know can make it worse than being in full winter condition.
I don't know if I've built it up in my head as an epic nightmare, but I understand benigtment is common. We would be starting at like 5:30am, from north face car park.
I've been up a number of times and done several grade 1 and 2 gullies, I've climbed up to winter 3 in the lakes (one the rare times there is anything in condition there), and I've done a couple of easy trips to the Alps (led cosmiques arête in June) My rock climbing on multipitch is around severe.
My partner is a little less experienced than me, but fully competent to second.
My question is, in the climbers opinion would TR be way beyond me or not?
Is there opportunities to ab off into the side gullies should it prove unmanagable (this would be a disaster option- I know it's a fully committing route).
I'm heading up to FW next weekend. And thinking of doing Tower Ridge. Looking at the weather the conditions i suspect it will be marginal, which from experience I know can make it worse than being in full winter condition.
I don't know if I've built it up in my head as an epic nightmare, but I understand benigtment is common. We would be starting at like 5:30am, from north face car park.
I've been up a number of times and done several grade 1 and 2 gullies, I've climbed up to winter 3 in the lakes (one the rare times there is anything in condition there), and I've done a couple of easy trips to the Alps (led cosmiques arête in June) My rock climbing on multipitch is around severe.
My partner is a little less experienced than me, but fully competent to second.
My question is, in the climbers opinion would TR be way beyond me or not?
Is there opportunities to ab off into the side gullies should it prove unmanagable (this would be a disaster option- I know it's a fully committing route).
In reply to Chris Huntington:
Impossible question to answer without having been out with you, but for what it's worth:
In current conditions very few of the rock steps are built up at all. That means that in the forecast cold weather at the weekend you can expect these steps to be rocky mixed climbing with an unhelpful mixture of powder snow, rime ice and verglas. Not unclimbable but likely to slow anyone down, and I'd guess with multiple steps of tech 4.
Once you've passed the first steepening above the level section above Douglas Gap, escapes to either side are likely to be as epic as continuing up (or down) the ridge - I personally wouldn't factor these into your thinking.
Impossible question to answer without having been out with you, but for what it's worth:
In current conditions very few of the rock steps are built up at all. That means that in the forecast cold weather at the weekend you can expect these steps to be rocky mixed climbing with an unhelpful mixture of powder snow, rime ice and verglas. Not unclimbable but likely to slow anyone down, and I'd guess with multiple steps of tech 4.
Once you've passed the first steepening above the level section above Douglas Gap, escapes to either side are likely to be as epic as continuing up (or down) the ridge - I personally wouldn't factor these into your thinking.
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
Hey Chris,
If the weather is reasonable I'd have a go if I were you, just do a load of reasearch on the route finding and work out your strategy.
It is committing, beyond the Little Tower and you might as well carry on to the top. Escape from the the upper part of the ridge is not straightforward. In appropriate conditions it is possible to traverse from the Great Tower under Tower Gap and into the Tower Gully/Observatory area. I've done this before when there's been a big log jam at Tower Gap.
People who get benighted tend to a) have found the going fairly hard work, and b) try to pitch the whole thing.
Whilst guiding these are steps where I do a quick short pitch using the terrain for security, but other than those here are the sections that I tend to belay and pitch:
Out of Tower Gap and onto the ridge (a bypass is possible here)
Four quick pitches on the Little Tower
The Eastern Traverse (if this is well tracked or snow free we move together)
Two pitches up onto the Great Tower
A pitch across Tower Gap
Depending on snow conditions a quick exit pitch out to the plateau.
.....got to go but happy to provide more advice.
Hey Chris,
If the weather is reasonable I'd have a go if I were you, just do a load of reasearch on the route finding and work out your strategy.
It is committing, beyond the Little Tower and you might as well carry on to the top. Escape from the the upper part of the ridge is not straightforward. In appropriate conditions it is possible to traverse from the Great Tower under Tower Gap and into the Tower Gully/Observatory area. I've done this before when there's been a big log jam at Tower Gap.
People who get benighted tend to a) have found the going fairly hard work, and b) try to pitch the whole thing.
Whilst guiding these are steps where I do a quick short pitch using the terrain for security, but other than those here are the sections that I tend to belay and pitch:
Out of Tower Gap and onto the ridge (a bypass is possible here)
Four quick pitches on the Little Tower
The Eastern Traverse (if this is well tracked or snow free we move together)
Two pitches up onto the Great Tower
A pitch across Tower Gap
Depending on snow conditions a quick exit pitch out to the plateau.
.....got to go but happy to provide more advice.
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In reply to Jamie B:
Hi Jamie- thanks, and the up to date conditions report is extremely welcome. I appreciate its a difficult question as you don't know my ability.
Hi Jamie- thanks, and the up to date conditions report is extremely welcome. I appreciate its a difficult question as you don't know my ability.
In reply to Rich W Parker:
Thanks Rich that is extremely useful. My initial thought process was definitely to simulclimb as much as possible and pitch where needed. We are fit and reasonably competent so I we should move at a reasonable pace. I think my main concern are these marginal conditions/soft snow.
I'm going to learn the route fully, check out the conditions myself on Friday and keep an eye on the weather before i make a decision.
Thanks Rich that is extremely useful. My initial thought process was definitely to simulclimb as much as possible and pitch where needed. We are fit and reasonably competent so I we should move at a reasonable pace. I think my main concern are these marginal conditions/soft snow.
I'm going to learn the route fully, check out the conditions myself on Friday and keep an eye on the weather before i make a decision.
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
Personally I would not advise tower ridge unless you were going well at grade III and by well I mean, you think you could lead grade 3 competently and relatively easily right now (which either implies you have lead harder in the past or recently a lot of grade III). However as others have said the conditions this weekend are likely to make the climb harder than normal. I would personally try something else.
Also simu climbing is higher risk in the event of a fall and does take some practice to know when to pitch or top rope the second up a slightly harder section. Also if the rope length is long enough that gear will normally be in the second may be out of ear shot especially if its windy. You must factor all of this in to climbing with a less experienced second and consider that prior to TR you've never lead grade IV either. Right enough TR is more like a very long committing grade 3 with a lot of easy alpine ground on it.
Also the days are still pretty short up here at the moment and progress may significantly slow if you do get caught out light wise. I think the days are about 9 hours of light just now.
I did tower ridge in good conditions with a competent partner when I was leading up to grade V. It took me 5 hours and we were going faster than average I'd say (certainly not rushing - but pitched as little as possible). I would allow at least 6-8 hours on the climb possibly longer if you do decide to do it.
Personally I would not advise tower ridge unless you were going well at grade III and by well I mean, you think you could lead grade 3 competently and relatively easily right now (which either implies you have lead harder in the past or recently a lot of grade III). However as others have said the conditions this weekend are likely to make the climb harder than normal. I would personally try something else.
Also simu climbing is higher risk in the event of a fall and does take some practice to know when to pitch or top rope the second up a slightly harder section. Also if the rope length is long enough that gear will normally be in the second may be out of ear shot especially if its windy. You must factor all of this in to climbing with a less experienced second and consider that prior to TR you've never lead grade IV either. Right enough TR is more like a very long committing grade 3 with a lot of easy alpine ground on it.
Also the days are still pretty short up here at the moment and progress may significantly slow if you do get caught out light wise. I think the days are about 9 hours of light just now.
I did tower ridge in good conditions with a competent partner when I was leading up to grade V. It took me 5 hours and we were going faster than average I'd say (certainly not rushing - but pitched as little as possible). I would allow at least 6-8 hours on the climb possibly longer if you do decide to do it.
Post edited at 11:04
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
Having been up there yesterday in Observatory Gully I'm not sure that Tower Ridge would be my choice of route for the coming weekend. The rock is very black and certainly has no visible build up anywhere on the ridge for the parts I could see when the cloud cleared. The snow line in the gully basically started in the Hadrian's/Point Five area and even then it was pretty thin. There was a very light dusting of snow over everything but I suspect that, as others have said, you will only have verglas rather than any build up, and this is likely to make for slow progress. I'l try to upload some of the pics I took yesterday to give you an idea of the current conditions up there.
Having been up there yesterday in Observatory Gully I'm not sure that Tower Ridge would be my choice of route for the coming weekend. The rock is very black and certainly has no visible build up anywhere on the ridge for the parts I could see when the cloud cleared. The snow line in the gully basically started in the Hadrian's/Point Five area and even then it was pretty thin. There was a very light dusting of snow over everything but I suspect that, as others have said, you will only have verglas rather than any build up, and this is likely to make for slow progress. I'l try to upload some of the pics I took yesterday to give you an idea of the current conditions up there.
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In reply to Cloverleaf:
I think the other thing to consider for such a classic route would it not be best for your first ascent of it to be in descent winter conditions. Its one of the best winter routes I've done in the UK. But then I had great conditions and amazing sunny weather. I certainly saved it for some time for these reasons (and until I knew I could climb it competently).
I think the other thing to consider for such a classic route would it not be best for your first ascent of it to be in descent winter conditions. Its one of the best winter routes I've done in the UK. But then I had great conditions and amazing sunny weather. I certainly saved it for some time for these reasons (and until I knew I could climb it competently).
Post edited at 11:21
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
Mate, how you doing long time no speak?
You could just go and give it a bash! <<private joke>>
However advice from CurleyStevo (and others) is spot on, I would leave TR for great conditions. It's just too much of a classic.
Do Ledge Route instead, will get you more experience of the North Face and is a fantastic route in just about any condition........don't let the low ish grade put you off!
K
Mate, how you doing long time no speak?
You could just go and give it a bash! <<private joke>>
However advice from CurleyStevo (and others) is spot on, I would leave TR for great conditions. It's just too much of a classic.
Do Ledge Route instead, will get you more experience of the North Face and is a fantastic route in just about any condition........don't let the low ish grade put you off!
K
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
I climbed Tower Ridge as pretty much the 4th time I'd ever been outdoor climbing. Going from learning how to belay properly the week before to taking coils and moving together over a huge route was a step too far, and we had a complete epic. 16 hours car to car.
Brilliant route, but probably far more enjoyable if you're slick and efficient. Ledge route is also class, and a good opportunity to practice the ropework skills required for Tower Ridge.
I climbed Tower Ridge as pretty much the 4th time I'd ever been outdoor climbing. Going from learning how to belay properly the week before to taking coils and moving together over a huge route was a step too far, and we had a complete epic. 16 hours car to car.
Brilliant route, but probably far more enjoyable if you're slick and efficient. Ledge route is also class, and a good opportunity to practice the ropework skills required for Tower Ridge.
5
In reply to Chris Huntington:
If you decide TR is not a goer I'd recommend Castle Ridge. It too may have an awkward feel if there is low build up, but it's nowhere near as committing. There is a tricky wee crux but it's well protected. From the top, rather than descending straight off the west flank of Carn Dearg (which is hellish), head a short distance to the summit from where you can head down Ledge Route, or No.4 Gully if you're fed up with scratching on rock.
Go careful though if it's windy from the west or south and there's snow about, as I'm sure you realise the tops of the gullies fairly load up and become unstable.
If you decide TR is not a goer I'd recommend Castle Ridge. It too may have an awkward feel if there is low build up, but it's nowhere near as committing. There is a tricky wee crux but it's well protected. From the top, rather than descending straight off the west flank of Carn Dearg (which is hellish), head a short distance to the summit from where you can head down Ledge Route, or No.4 Gully if you're fed up with scratching on rock.
Go careful though if it's windy from the west or south and there's snow about, as I'm sure you realise the tops of the gullies fairly load up and become unstable.
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In reply to CurlyStevo:
blah blah blah
sorry, I forget you are a self appointed expert at these things
whatever happened to the spirit of adventure - walk up, have a look at conditions, if looking good, and feeling confident then try TR, if not go do something else
> Personally I would not advise tower ridge unless
blah blah blah
sorry, I forget you are a self appointed expert at these things
whatever happened to the spirit of adventure - walk up, have a look at conditions, if looking good, and feeling confident then try TR, if not go do something else
5
43
In reply to subtle:
The OP asked for an opinion which I gave. I wasn't saying my opinion was any more or less expert than other posters on the thread.
The OP asked for an opinion which I gave. I wasn't saying my opinion was any more or less expert than other posters on the thread.
Post edited at 17:06
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
You have to wait for daylight for this to work
http://www.visitfortwilliam.co.uk/about-ben-nevis-in-fort-william-and-ben-n...
Useful info here
http://www.abacusmountainguides.com/blog
You have to wait for daylight for this to work
http://www.visitfortwilliam.co.uk/about-ben-nevis-in-fort-william-and-ben-n...
Useful info here
http://www.abacusmountainguides.com/blog
Post edited at 18:15
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In reply to subtle:
Curleystevo is talking complete sense. You are talking utter bollocks. Have you ever been there?
Certainly subtle. NOT!
Curleystevo is talking complete sense. You are talking utter bollocks. Have you ever been there?
Certainly subtle. NOT!
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
It's a long route and not easy to get off if you decide you've had enough. If you're already umming and ahhing, and the conditions are expected to be awkward, I'd say approach it knowing there's a good chance you'll have to either do quite a bit in the dark, spend the night up there, or make a call very early on when you can still reverse the route whether you're happy with it. If your head is ok with that then go and have an adventure and you might love it, if those possibilities put you off then it's not the right time.
(tower gap in the dark in a gale an interesting experience!)
It's a long route and not easy to get off if you decide you've had enough. If you're already umming and ahhing, and the conditions are expected to be awkward, I'd say approach it knowing there's a good chance you'll have to either do quite a bit in the dark, spend the night up there, or make a call very early on when you can still reverse the route whether you're happy with it. If your head is ok with that then go and have an adventure and you might love it, if those possibilities put you off then it's not the right time.
(tower gap in the dark in a gale an interesting experience!)
3
In reply to Chris Huntington:
Is tower ridge not upgraded to III/IV now? I have stayed at the CIC hut for the past 4 years around this time of year and am planning to be there this weekend. Every time I have been up there it hasnt been in decent nick, either too much powder snow, no ice or just too windy. Personally I would stay clear of it this weekend and try something else, I would love to think it will be in good condition but very much doubt it looking at the webcams and forecast the rocks look black!
Keep it for good conditions seems a waste to scratch up it and have a nightmare on it. Best of luck but tread with caution.
Is tower ridge not upgraded to III/IV now? I have stayed at the CIC hut for the past 4 years around this time of year and am planning to be there this weekend. Every time I have been up there it hasnt been in decent nick, either too much powder snow, no ice or just too windy. Personally I would stay clear of it this weekend and try something else, I would love to think it will be in good condition but very much doubt it looking at the webcams and forecast the rocks look black!
Keep it for good conditions seems a waste to scratch up it and have a nightmare on it. Best of luck but tread with caution.
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
Hi Chris
TR is a long day out mate, i did it last Feb with a lot of powder on it, which was hard work, i agree with some of the others, Ledge route does sound like a good option in current conditions & gives you a chance to get a feel for the Ben, That's just my opinion though. I hope you have a good one what ever you decide.
Hi Chris
TR is a long day out mate, i did it last Feb with a lot of powder on it, which was hard work, i agree with some of the others, Ledge route does sound like a good option in current conditions & gives you a chance to get a feel for the Ben, That's just my opinion though. I hope you have a good one what ever you decide.
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In reply to Root1:
so, which part of the following piece of advice that I gave are you taking exception to?
"whatever happened to the spirit of adventure - walk up, have a look at conditions, if looking good, and feeling confident then try TR, if not go do something else"
Just wondering like....
> Curleystevo is talking complete sense. You are talking utter bollocks. Have you ever been there?
> Certainly subtle. NOT!
so, which part of the following piece of advice that I gave are you taking exception to?
"whatever happened to the spirit of adventure - walk up, have a look at conditions, if looking good, and feeling confident then try TR, if not go do something else"
Just wondering like....
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In reply to subtle:
The 'spirit of adventure' does not involve being a lemming. You can't tell the condition on the crux sections until pretty fully committed. Its a route for solid grade III leaders in good conditions when its had obvious traffic. Hence the modern IV grade.
So I'd support Stevo's view and advise the OP to leave it (and consider starting earlier than 5.30 when he and the route is ready). You can bypass the start gully behind the Douglas boulder on the left which speeds things up. The route is often spoilt by other people... slow parties out of their depth (and struggling) and idiot impatient soloists with dangerous practice.
Castle Ridge is also a big route that can be really hard and time consuming in poor conditions... its the only winter route I've taken a lead fall on (slipped on holdless rock slabs covered in crud) and I finished in the dark even though I started early and was really solid on IV leads.
The 'spirit of adventure' does not involve being a lemming. You can't tell the condition on the crux sections until pretty fully committed. Its a route for solid grade III leaders in good conditions when its had obvious traffic. Hence the modern IV grade.
So I'd support Stevo's view and advise the OP to leave it (and consider starting earlier than 5.30 when he and the route is ready). You can bypass the start gully behind the Douglas boulder on the left which speeds things up. The route is often spoilt by other people... slow parties out of their depth (and struggling) and idiot impatient soloists with dangerous practice.
Castle Ridge is also a big route that can be really hard and time consuming in poor conditions... its the only winter route I've taken a lead fall on (slipped on holdless rock slabs covered in crud) and I finished in the dark even though I started early and was really solid on IV leads.
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In reply to Offwidth:
what is the crux section of TR then?
As for the 5.30 start from the NF car park its what, 90 mins, for a slow wander to the CIC, another 30 mins to the Douglas Boulder, allow for an 8am start up and its not dark until around 16.40 so a full 8 hours to get up TR, the first half of which will be black and wont need axes or crampons?
And, at 8, if it does look black (as it will do this weekend) then they can have a look at something starting higher up and go do that.
At least tell the OP to go in, have a look, make the decision on the day due to weather/conditions/other parties
And anyway, whats wrong with solo-ing TR, they are not all idiot impatient soloists with dangerous practice.
what is the crux section of TR then?
As for the 5.30 start from the NF car park its what, 90 mins, for a slow wander to the CIC, another 30 mins to the Douglas Boulder, allow for an 8am start up and its not dark until around 16.40 so a full 8 hours to get up TR, the first half of which will be black and wont need axes or crampons?
And, at 8, if it does look black (as it will do this weekend) then they can have a look at something starting higher up and go do that.
At least tell the OP to go in, have a look, make the decision on the day due to weather/conditions/other parties
And anyway, whats wrong with solo-ing TR, they are not all idiot impatient soloists with dangerous practice.
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In reply to subtle:
The crux will depend on what's up there... likely Little or Great Tower under powder/verglas. The forecast is cold, windy and snowing I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who is only leading III.
Who said anything is wrong with soloing TR.. idiot incompetant soloists was my gripe... its a common problem on many classic routes up to IV on the Ben.
Anyway, I suspect you are just an argumentative wind-up merchant, so good evening.
The crux will depend on what's up there... likely Little or Great Tower under powder/verglas. The forecast is cold, windy and snowing I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who is only leading III.
Who said anything is wrong with soloing TR.. idiot incompetant soloists was my gripe... its a common problem on many classic routes up to IV on the Ben.
Anyway, I suspect you are just an argumentative wind-up merchant, so good evening.
8
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In reply to Chris Huntington:
Tower Ridge got climbed today with crampons only required for the Eastern traverse - it's as bare as anyone can remember for this time of year. That does however mean that if it gets a dusting of snow and rime this weekend it'll be technical and time-consuming.
Tower Ridge got climbed today with crampons only required for the Eastern traverse - it's as bare as anyone can remember for this time of year. That does however mean that if it gets a dusting of snow and rime this weekend it'll be technical and time-consuming.
1
In reply to Jamie B:
Agreed. With a wee dump of snow Saturday and fairly settled weather on Sunday it'll be a fine, engrossing proposition for a IV leader.
Agreed. With a wee dump of snow Saturday and fairly settled weather on Sunday it'll be a fine, engrossing proposition for a IV leader.
In reply to Offwidth:
How recently have you been on the Ben?
> The crux will depend on what's up there... likely Little or Great Tower under powder/verglas. The forecast is cold, windy and snowing I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who is only leading III.
How recently have you been on the Ben?
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In reply to GrantM:
Not recently and I fail to see why its relevant... unfortunately I have bunions that make consecutive big winter days very painful. If you want an indication of my experience I climbed extensively up there for about 15 years including working with local guides to introduce and improve students in my club in winter climbing and many weekends with mates. I've seen the Ben under most conditions and even have my name on a route (extending something Cubby did the day before). I've probably seen as much about how newer winter climbers respond to differing conditions as anyone not paid in that task.
Not recently and I fail to see why its relevant... unfortunately I have bunions that make consecutive big winter days very painful. If you want an indication of my experience I climbed extensively up there for about 15 years including working with local guides to introduce and improve students in my club in winter climbing and many weekends with mates. I've seen the Ben under most conditions and even have my name on a route (extending something Cubby did the day before). I've probably seen as much about how newer winter climbers respond to differing conditions as anyone not paid in that task.
5
In reply to blah blah blah
sorry, I forget you are a self appointed expert at these things
Your attitude to others perhaps?
sorry, I forget you are a self appointed expert at these things
Your attitude to others perhaps?
2
1
In reply to Root1:
Maybe if youhave any misgivings you could leave it on your hit list and do it when it's in good nick. Then you'll feel happier committing to the length and, eh... commitment..
Also it's nice to know that the guy you're simul scrambling with won't fall off or freak out on the traverse.
In alpine nick you can get along it in an hour or less but in crap nick it's a long, long day!
Sounds like you would manage it plus you're doing research which is sensible I suppose.
Good luck.
Maybe if youhave any misgivings you could leave it on your hit list and do it when it's in good nick. Then you'll feel happier committing to the length and, eh... commitment..
Also it's nice to know that the guy you're simul scrambling with won't fall off or freak out on the traverse.
In alpine nick you can get along it in an hour or less but in crap nick it's a long, long day!
Sounds like you would manage it plus you're doing research which is sensible I suppose.
Good luck.
Post edited at 07:29
2
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