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This may interest some....while it will certainly bore most.
http://hikeandclimb.ie/the-elephant-in-the-climbing-gym/
http://hikeandclimb.ie/the-elephant-in-the-climbing-gym/
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In reply to HikeandClimb:
To be candid this is no elephant in the room this is chapter 1 to the beginners guide to climbing, or in a broader sense the beginners guide to any sport. Do something enough and with poor form and you will get injured.
To be candid this is no elephant in the room this is chapter 1 to the beginners guide to climbing, or in a broader sense the beginners guide to any sport. Do something enough and with poor form and you will get injured.
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In reply to HikeandClimb:
If only cimbing walls would introduce something like this to an "induction" process, stressing the importance of incorporating the "prehab" and antagonistic exercises into your "training" programme.
It would also be great if they'd run at least 1 class a week that goes over as many of the prehab and antagonistic muscle training exercises as possible... That could be 2 separate classes as there's alot of different such exercises to try.
Making it "compulsory" to attend them for the first month, for example alternating a climbing sesh with the induction class until any new or returning climber has completed at least 2 different such induction classes.
This would be good for climbing walls too, showing some responsibility as well as maintaining their customer base by reducing /not losing climbers to injuries, but no doubt some climbers would find it a bit OTT if it was compulsory.
But many non-climbing gyms have to have compulsory health and safety inductions anyway, and won't let you train without attending the induction... so not much difference really.
Perhaps some run prehab, or injury prevention, and rehab classes?
I don't know any that do, except as slightly part of yoga.
Climbing gyms can do more to educate on how to try avoid injuries .... it's in their best interests anyway, but apart from advising growing youths not to try campussing, i've seen little.
Personally i'm currently happily enjoying time off climbing, but my next time climbing will be with greater awareness of what i need to keep doing to avoid injuries.
If only cimbing walls would introduce something like this to an "induction" process, stressing the importance of incorporating the "prehab" and antagonistic exercises into your "training" programme.
It would also be great if they'd run at least 1 class a week that goes over as many of the prehab and antagonistic muscle training exercises as possible... That could be 2 separate classes as there's alot of different such exercises to try.
Making it "compulsory" to attend them for the first month, for example alternating a climbing sesh with the induction class until any new or returning climber has completed at least 2 different such induction classes.
This would be good for climbing walls too, showing some responsibility as well as maintaining their customer base by reducing /not losing climbers to injuries, but no doubt some climbers would find it a bit OTT if it was compulsory.
But many non-climbing gyms have to have compulsory health and safety inductions anyway, and won't let you train without attending the induction... so not much difference really.
Perhaps some run prehab, or injury prevention, and rehab classes?
I don't know any that do, except as slightly part of yoga.
Climbing gyms can do more to educate on how to try avoid injuries .... it's in their best interests anyway, but apart from advising growing youths not to try campussing, i've seen little.
Personally i'm currently happily enjoying time off climbing, but my next time climbing will be with greater awareness of what i need to keep doing to avoid injuries.
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In reply to 1poundSOCKS:
I'm usually the elephant in any climbing gym
Once launched a belayer clipped to *2* weightbags...
I'm usually the elephant in any climbing gym
Once launched a belayer clipped to *2* weightbags...
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In reply to Rock to Fakey:
Giving a lot of info about antagonist training and injury prevention might well put a lot of beginners off starting at all. It's planting the seed in their head that they're going to get injured and climbing is more dangerous that it actually is. It's only at a certain stage in a climbers development that this advice is needed. And many people never reach that stage at all, happy to bumble about on easy grades indefinitely.
I also don't think it's the climbing wall's responsibility to do so either. There is tons of advice out there, in books, magazines, other climbers and most of all on the web. It seems to me anyone taking up climbing is going to educate themselves, just as anyone would taking up any sport or activity.
Giving a lot of info about antagonist training and injury prevention might well put a lot of beginners off starting at all. It's planting the seed in their head that they're going to get injured and climbing is more dangerous that it actually is. It's only at a certain stage in a climbers development that this advice is needed. And many people never reach that stage at all, happy to bumble about on easy grades indefinitely.
I also don't think it's the climbing wall's responsibility to do so either. There is tons of advice out there, in books, magazines, other climbers and most of all on the web. It seems to me anyone taking up climbing is going to educate themselves, just as anyone would taking up any sport or activity.
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In reply to stp:
I don't think so... better to get it right from the start.
Mentioning the dangers of climbing,? Don't think i did.
But who comes to climbing not knowing it might not be potentially dangerous?
Reference to training injuries could be off-putting? People don't stop playing rugby, cycle road racing, skateboarding, surfing, weight lifting, because they might get injured, but its good to be advised to wear a support belt for deadlifts, wrist sliders, helmets, gumshields, etc, whatever your sport is, but before that, there was a time when people didn't, and there were more serious injuries, that could have been avoided, but we progress. Personally I like Health and Safety inductions... the nanny state actually has less injuries in it.
Easy routes still have potential to cause injuries don't they? 5 + and 6a i have done on overhangs and roofs where lack of awareness of how to avoid fully hanging on extended shoulders, combined with a foot slipping so you fully weight one extended shoulder is all you need to tear something inside.
There's often a bmc? notice i see in walls that suggests youths keep off campus boards, and fingerboards, but this applies to adults too for a while.
Not everyone has time to research everything, but an induction highlighting how to develop shoulder stability, slowly building finger strenth etc, and avoid other injuries, covering some good exercises that should become part of climbing training, would be a great additional class to have at all climbing gyms.
Some people do go in and try stuff that won't help, eg fingerboarding / campus, without knowing, or reading the notices.
If someone is already reading this forum, which is peppered with requests for advice on climbing / training injuries, and they are still up 4 it, then, like the rest of us, the thought of injury, or 3 months to a year off because of an injury followed possibly by keyhole surgery etc, they are probably still glad to have found climbing and aren't going to be easily put off, but will probably be glad to have advice on what not to do as a beginner, and what is also good to do... Eg get familiar with rotator cuff exercises.
People are going to educate themselves slowly + eventually whilst getting into it , but with shoulder injuries ( and others?) it seems many people don't get to know what they should have been doing until its too late.
A little twinge that you think nothing of, and perhaps even then its too late to start getting stable shoulders, without time off / surgery., but some / many? carry on climbing regardless, until they can't!
At bouldering rooms, where you can try overhanging stuff, at easy grades, eg extensive roofs with a matt a few feet below you, anyone new to this could hurt a shoulder.
The same could happen climbing Outdoors where no-one will tell you about how you might not be "developed" enough for your shoulder / fingers to cope.
The same could happen swinging on monkey bars at a playground.
But where a lot of people meet up are meeting up in one place such as a climbing centre, perhaps there is a great opportunity being missed by wall management and users to educate and be educated regarding developing a training plan that will make you more injury proof.
There is tonnes of advice out there,... when will a beginner find the basics? Wouldn't it better if it was presented at the beginning in an induction, if a climbing wall is where you begin, but even if you began outside, and never took much interest in mags / forums, it would still be a useful session to anyone to have to do if they were to become a regular user e.g. over winter / wet seasons.
No other climber has given me the basics on how or why to get stable shoulders.
I've only seen 1 person using bands for rotator cuff exercises at a gym in the last 6 months.
I don't think so... better to get it right from the start.
Mentioning the dangers of climbing,? Don't think i did.
But who comes to climbing not knowing it might not be potentially dangerous?
Reference to training injuries could be off-putting? People don't stop playing rugby, cycle road racing, skateboarding, surfing, weight lifting, because they might get injured, but its good to be advised to wear a support belt for deadlifts, wrist sliders, helmets, gumshields, etc, whatever your sport is, but before that, there was a time when people didn't, and there were more serious injuries, that could have been avoided, but we progress. Personally I like Health and Safety inductions... the nanny state actually has less injuries in it.
Easy routes still have potential to cause injuries don't they? 5 + and 6a i have done on overhangs and roofs where lack of awareness of how to avoid fully hanging on extended shoulders, combined with a foot slipping so you fully weight one extended shoulder is all you need to tear something inside.
There's often a bmc? notice i see in walls that suggests youths keep off campus boards, and fingerboards, but this applies to adults too for a while.
Not everyone has time to research everything, but an induction highlighting how to develop shoulder stability, slowly building finger strenth etc, and avoid other injuries, covering some good exercises that should become part of climbing training, would be a great additional class to have at all climbing gyms.
Some people do go in and try stuff that won't help, eg fingerboarding / campus, without knowing, or reading the notices.
If someone is already reading this forum, which is peppered with requests for advice on climbing / training injuries, and they are still up 4 it, then, like the rest of us, the thought of injury, or 3 months to a year off because of an injury followed possibly by keyhole surgery etc, they are probably still glad to have found climbing and aren't going to be easily put off, but will probably be glad to have advice on what not to do as a beginner, and what is also good to do... Eg get familiar with rotator cuff exercises.
People are going to educate themselves slowly + eventually whilst getting into it , but with shoulder injuries ( and others?) it seems many people don't get to know what they should have been doing until its too late.
A little twinge that you think nothing of, and perhaps even then its too late to start getting stable shoulders, without time off / surgery., but some / many? carry on climbing regardless, until they can't!
At bouldering rooms, where you can try overhanging stuff, at easy grades, eg extensive roofs with a matt a few feet below you, anyone new to this could hurt a shoulder.
The same could happen climbing Outdoors where no-one will tell you about how you might not be "developed" enough for your shoulder / fingers to cope.
The same could happen swinging on monkey bars at a playground.
But where a lot of people meet up are meeting up in one place such as a climbing centre, perhaps there is a great opportunity being missed by wall management and users to educate and be educated regarding developing a training plan that will make you more injury proof.
There is tonnes of advice out there,... when will a beginner find the basics? Wouldn't it better if it was presented at the beginning in an induction, if a climbing wall is where you begin, but even if you began outside, and never took much interest in mags / forums, it would still be a useful session to anyone to have to do if they were to become a regular user e.g. over winter / wet seasons.
No other climber has given me the basics on how or why to get stable shoulders.
I've only seen 1 person using bands for rotator cuff exercises at a gym in the last 6 months.
Post edited at 10:07
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In reply to Rock to Fakey:
I would tend to agree with Stp on the fact that it is not the walls responsibility, their remit extends most likely to items covered by any induction new starters must attend. This is the same for any traditional gym.
A few walls have seen that optional shoulder, elbow and finger health and technique classes add value and hold these at regular intervals, The Climbing Works being a notable venue for this.
In a wider sense with any hobby, you peruse it to a level that gives you the most joy, this includes seeking out and educating yourself on its particulars. Five years ago we never had trainingbeta.com or climbing chalk talk or even the multitude of callisthenics programs freely available. It's easier now than ever to get hold of solid advice on the fundamentals for our sport.
I would tend to agree with Stp on the fact that it is not the walls responsibility, their remit extends most likely to items covered by any induction new starters must attend. This is the same for any traditional gym.
A few walls have seen that optional shoulder, elbow and finger health and technique classes add value and hold these at regular intervals, The Climbing Works being a notable venue for this.
In a wider sense with any hobby, you peruse it to a level that gives you the most joy, this includes seeking out and educating yourself on its particulars. Five years ago we never had trainingbeta.com or climbing chalk talk or even the multitude of callisthenics programs freely available. It's easier now than ever to get hold of solid advice on the fundamentals for our sport.
In reply to alx:
I agree too that it's not climbing walls "responsibility" to explain how to be mindful of the potential for injuries to muscles and tendons and joints, etc, caused by climbing / training movements, i have chosen the wrong word. I don't mean responsibility as in, they didn't warn us about this danger, we should sue them! But don't they have a "duty of care" ... it's a place where large numbers of climbers meet and especially if new to it can be introduced to what is a better way to keep going with their sport.
If i ran a wall, i would have such compulsory classes,... Probably some people would not come because you wanted then to do a class to show them how to reduce the likelihood of torn muscles or tendons, like some people can even be put off by having to register or pay a fiver for anual reg.
Perhaps some people didn't join a fitness suite because they had to do an induction there too, and no doubt they said they've been at gyms previously i knew how to do everything correctly.
I'm glad the Climbing Works runs stuff. I presume its voluntary... Do many people go?
I agree too that it's not climbing walls "responsibility" to explain how to be mindful of the potential for injuries to muscles and tendons and joints, etc, caused by climbing / training movements, i have chosen the wrong word. I don't mean responsibility as in, they didn't warn us about this danger, we should sue them! But don't they have a "duty of care" ... it's a place where large numbers of climbers meet and especially if new to it can be introduced to what is a better way to keep going with their sport.
If i ran a wall, i would have such compulsory classes,... Probably some people would not come because you wanted then to do a class to show them how to reduce the likelihood of torn muscles or tendons, like some people can even be put off by having to register or pay a fiver for anual reg.
Perhaps some people didn't join a fitness suite because they had to do an induction there too, and no doubt they said they've been at gyms previously i knew how to do everything correctly.
I'm glad the Climbing Works runs stuff. I presume its voluntary... Do many people go?
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In reply to Rock to Fakey:
Interesting and sincere reply. Some good points many of of which I agree with. But I just want to make a few observations.
Firstly many climbers go through their entire climbing lives without ever having an injury despite not doing anything special other than just going climbing. I suspect this is probably the majority of climbers in fact.
Secondly I know many climbers who do know about shoulder health and antagonistic training but still don't do it because they can't be bothered or don't see injury as a likely risk. One guy I know is almost a hypochondriac when it comes to climbing injuries and gets worried at the slightest twinge. He has bought and read several books on the subject. Yet he still does no other supplemental training despite his vast knowledge of the subject.
Most climbers won't even do basic exercises like pull ups or core training, despite the fact it would obviously boost their climbing performance. If they won't do that there's not much chance they'll want to do antagonist training to avoid some injury they'll likely never have anyway. Bear in mind the average grade on UKC is only Hard Severe. It's a bit higher indoors but not that much. The climbers that go in for more serious training are a minority.
Finally, if you read Dave Macleod's book on injuries, the causes are pretty diverse. Posture, overuse, sudden trauma to name just a few. It's a pretty complex subject in fact and what's right for one person might be completely different for someone else. A small and light climber might be fine training on a campus board 5 or 6 days a week whereas for someone else that could be disastrous. Another person's primary risk factor might be to do with sitting with poor posture in an office 5 days a week. With such a diversity of risk factors it would be a pretty hard job to come up with a one size fits all type of plan anyway.
Interesting and sincere reply. Some good points many of of which I agree with. But I just want to make a few observations.
Firstly many climbers go through their entire climbing lives without ever having an injury despite not doing anything special other than just going climbing. I suspect this is probably the majority of climbers in fact.
Secondly I know many climbers who do know about shoulder health and antagonistic training but still don't do it because they can't be bothered or don't see injury as a likely risk. One guy I know is almost a hypochondriac when it comes to climbing injuries and gets worried at the slightest twinge. He has bought and read several books on the subject. Yet he still does no other supplemental training despite his vast knowledge of the subject.
Most climbers won't even do basic exercises like pull ups or core training, despite the fact it would obviously boost their climbing performance. If they won't do that there's not much chance they'll want to do antagonist training to avoid some injury they'll likely never have anyway. Bear in mind the average grade on UKC is only Hard Severe. It's a bit higher indoors but not that much. The climbers that go in for more serious training are a minority.
Finally, if you read Dave Macleod's book on injuries, the causes are pretty diverse. Posture, overuse, sudden trauma to name just a few. It's a pretty complex subject in fact and what's right for one person might be completely different for someone else. A small and light climber might be fine training on a campus board 5 or 6 days a week whereas for someone else that could be disastrous. Another person's primary risk factor might be to do with sitting with poor posture in an office 5 days a week. With such a diversity of risk factors it would be a pretty hard job to come up with a one size fits all type of plan anyway.
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In reply to Rock to Fakey:
So if you ran a wall like that you'd be losing potential customers. And, unless it was unusually successful wall, I think your overarching priority would be to get people in through the doors to cover your outlay and running costs over anything else.
> If i ran a wall, i would have such compulsory classes,... Probably some people would not come because you wanted then to do a class to show them how to reduce the likelihood of torn muscles or tendons, like some people can even be put off by having to register or pay a fiver for anual reg.
So if you ran a wall like that you'd be losing potential customers. And, unless it was unusually successful wall, I think your overarching priority would be to get people in through the doors to cover your outlay and running costs over anything else.
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In reply to HikeandClimb:
Thanks for the posts and feedback.
It's really interesting to see how diverse the opinions are on injury prevention in climbing and how to relay best practice info (prehab) to those who are most at risk of injury (adults new to climbing and psyched out of their minds).
The personal interest arose for me from seeing lots of capable adults climbers quickly running through the grades indoors and then having to stop due to injuries. I also recently carried out an in-house survey for one of the largest climbing clubs in Ireland and the results were an eye opener.
A couple of points:
I initially had 'weak pulley' included in the blog when reference the hand. This was an error as the psychology of language is important and by indicating that a part of the body is weak then it may inhibit people from trying hard. Therefore I agree that if you bombard an adult starting to climb indoors with all these messages of 'your going to get injured' then it may stop them from trying hard and more importantly ruin the fun experience of climbing, which lets face it is just a lark.
On the flip side there is ample information out there now about prehab for climbing but usually one only comes to this when the injury has occurred.
The best model that I have personal experience of is that carried out in The Gravity Climbing Centre in Dublin.
They do the usual induction regarding best practice, warming up and have posters on view to support this info (as do most climbing walls).
But they also have the guys from Mytherapy (Veronica and Rob) run regular session at the wall targeting shoulder stability, core, screening for movement dysfunction (climbing and training)..etc.
I think this is perhaps the best method of introducing prehab for climbing into the consciousness of new adult climbers as the sessions are advertised on social media and run in the centre but they are not mandatory. With this approach I think the seed is planted in a subtle way and then the adult can decided if they want to dig a little deeper or not.
Cheers for the feedback.
Thanks for the posts and feedback.
It's really interesting to see how diverse the opinions are on injury prevention in climbing and how to relay best practice info (prehab) to those who are most at risk of injury (adults new to climbing and psyched out of their minds).
The personal interest arose for me from seeing lots of capable adults climbers quickly running through the grades indoors and then having to stop due to injuries. I also recently carried out an in-house survey for one of the largest climbing clubs in Ireland and the results were an eye opener.
A couple of points:
I initially had 'weak pulley' included in the blog when reference the hand. This was an error as the psychology of language is important and by indicating that a part of the body is weak then it may inhibit people from trying hard. Therefore I agree that if you bombard an adult starting to climb indoors with all these messages of 'your going to get injured' then it may stop them from trying hard and more importantly ruin the fun experience of climbing, which lets face it is just a lark.
On the flip side there is ample information out there now about prehab for climbing but usually one only comes to this when the injury has occurred.
The best model that I have personal experience of is that carried out in The Gravity Climbing Centre in Dublin.
They do the usual induction regarding best practice, warming up and have posters on view to support this info (as do most climbing walls).
But they also have the guys from Mytherapy (Veronica and Rob) run regular session at the wall targeting shoulder stability, core, screening for movement dysfunction (climbing and training)..etc.
I think this is perhaps the best method of introducing prehab for climbing into the consciousness of new adult climbers as the sessions are advertised on social media and run in the centre but they are not mandatory. With this approach I think the seed is planted in a subtle way and then the adult can decided if they want to dig a little deeper or not.
Cheers for the feedback.
1
In reply to stp:
I think there'd be the odd few who would be turned away for a while, but not long, they'd want to get some climbing in.
If it was the only climbing wall locally, they would go along with it more or less straight away even if reluctantly.
If it was a choice between 2 walls in a city it might be more challenging to have a compulsory induction of this type, injury prevention focussed, when people can choose to go elsewhere, but if the class was continually run and varied to cover the many types of prehab exercises etc, there'd be a mixed crowd who'd come just to get into such classes too.
Many people only go to a yoga class once a week, and that's there yoga for the week, at least they did it once, some go as a part of a programme they continue at home, as well as doing the class, which itself kind of anchors the self discipline of keeping it going.
When i climbed myself a fair bit in early 20's, i was never injured, but did Finger board + fingertip pullups with weights, normal bar pullups with weights, but no awareness of injury prevention, no antagonistic muscle training, i guess my progression was only slightly more gradual, as i got up a few e4 /5 after 2 years.
But this time around, 25 years later, i got injured, at around 3 months, i don't know what on, i could suspect several things, never very painful, but realised it was beginning to stop me at about 6 months getting beyond 6b+ /6c.
I see that i've tried roof circuits, 45°boards (1 circuit i distinctly remember feet came off crossing over to a jug with left arm leading to a swing on it) , foot on campussing (although the foot rungs needed replacing as no edge so feet would pop off when they were supposed to be giving support), and weighted pull ups and dips. The latter i think i started doing not realising i was already injured (or not acknowledging that a tiny prickly occasional shoulder thing could be something serious), but soon stopped doing these.
I'd say my pullups were sometimes fully hung too.
At around 4 months i started following all the injury posts, especially shoulder ones, with great interest!
You could be right, many people won't ever need such a class.
I think the average indoor grade is more like pushing on hvs?
I probably would have done my compulsory training inductions or 2, then not bothered any more, and still got injured!
It's probably only when it happens anyone's going to get interested, unless it's promoted as being of great benefit, and a fun class.
I'm glad it's happened early, i hope to crack a 7c before I'm 50, oh, maybe 55, think 50 is only around a year away now! But 7a/+ was on target this year had this not happened.
Don't care anyway, got so much other crap to get sorted anyway, spending all that time training / climbing also gets me feeling a bit guilty about how selfish we become as climbers to keep it going!
... I like that Dublin climbing centre, , sounds a great place.
I think there'd be the odd few who would be turned away for a while, but not long, they'd want to get some climbing in.
If it was the only climbing wall locally, they would go along with it more or less straight away even if reluctantly.
If it was a choice between 2 walls in a city it might be more challenging to have a compulsory induction of this type, injury prevention focussed, when people can choose to go elsewhere, but if the class was continually run and varied to cover the many types of prehab exercises etc, there'd be a mixed crowd who'd come just to get into such classes too.
Many people only go to a yoga class once a week, and that's there yoga for the week, at least they did it once, some go as a part of a programme they continue at home, as well as doing the class, which itself kind of anchors the self discipline of keeping it going.
When i climbed myself a fair bit in early 20's, i was never injured, but did Finger board + fingertip pullups with weights, normal bar pullups with weights, but no awareness of injury prevention, no antagonistic muscle training, i guess my progression was only slightly more gradual, as i got up a few e4 /5 after 2 years.
But this time around, 25 years later, i got injured, at around 3 months, i don't know what on, i could suspect several things, never very painful, but realised it was beginning to stop me at about 6 months getting beyond 6b+ /6c.
I see that i've tried roof circuits, 45°boards (1 circuit i distinctly remember feet came off crossing over to a jug with left arm leading to a swing on it) , foot on campussing (although the foot rungs needed replacing as no edge so feet would pop off when they were supposed to be giving support), and weighted pull ups and dips. The latter i think i started doing not realising i was already injured (or not acknowledging that a tiny prickly occasional shoulder thing could be something serious), but soon stopped doing these.
I'd say my pullups were sometimes fully hung too.
At around 4 months i started following all the injury posts, especially shoulder ones, with great interest!
You could be right, many people won't ever need such a class.
I think the average indoor grade is more like pushing on hvs?
I probably would have done my compulsory training inductions or 2, then not bothered any more, and still got injured!
It's probably only when it happens anyone's going to get interested, unless it's promoted as being of great benefit, and a fun class.
I'm glad it's happened early, i hope to crack a 7c before I'm 50, oh, maybe 55, think 50 is only around a year away now! But 7a/+ was on target this year had this not happened.
Don't care anyway, got so much other crap to get sorted anyway, spending all that time training / climbing also gets me feeling a bit guilty about how selfish we become as climbers to keep it going!
... I like that Dublin climbing centre, , sounds a great place.
Post edited at 18:23
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