UKC

The more and more I read and watch online, the more I think that we are coming to a truly significant time in our social history.

2016 - what a year! Brexit, Trump, the apparent rise of the right. The reason that I use the word "apparent" is that I don't believe it is actually true. I don't think that there has been a kind of collective awakening of racism in our societies. I truly believe it is because the ordinary people of the masses have had enough of the status quo. And the status quo is economies and governments being run by corporations and billionaires for the corporations and billionaires. The facts are that the "right" have realised this and have used it as a tool to promote their agendas. However, I think that is as far as it goes, I don't believe they care about ordinary people either. Just look at who Trump is and with whom he has surrounded himself with. Corporate billionaires! I actually think that the British and the Americans know the negatives of both of these landmark votes, they just don't care anymore and it’s just two fingers up to the "establishment". It is not just the right, but in some instances also the extreme "left" that have used this advantage, look at Greece.

I've been watching quite a bit of Mark Blyth on YouTube recently. He predicted both Brexit and Trump when everyone else was saying "no chance" and I think he hits the nail on the head with almost everything he says.. Personally, I didn't think Brexit would happen, but once it did I knew Trump would win. Here's a few links, the first two are short, the third is a much longer lecture and Q&A, but is brilliantly argued.

youtube.com/watch?v=nwK0jeJ8wxg&

youtube.com/watch?v=qxBzcynHGEE&

youtube.com/watch?v=Bkm2Vfj42FY&

So, is it time to take control of the left or more pertinently, the corporate democrats? Is it time for people LIKE Bernie Sanders and Jeremy Corbyn to have a go? I emphasis the word like, because I don't think it should be either of those who are actually the leaders. Sanders is too old and Corbyn is too weak and besides, his particular socialist ideologies were busted in the seventies. Is it time for decent people in the "West" to stand up and take back their governments? In the last few days, the Bernie Sanders elements in the DNC have given notice to the corporate democrats in their party and have declared they are coming for them and are going to regain their party through their "Justice Democrats" movement. I also suspect the recent "anti-Trump" marches have as much to do with this as being against Trump.

Is it time for us to do something similar here? Is it time to kick the corporations and billionaires out of our politics and have a government formed by the people for the people?

Here's Karl Kulinski from Secular News talking about "Justice Democrats". It is how I think political parties and governments should be formed.

youtube.com/watch?v=HeRScAQCaRg&

In reply to Hugh J:

Sounds like you mean action.

Are you going to start an online petition?

In reply to Just Another Dave:
Firstly, I don't know how to get a online petition going and secondly I don't believe it will do any good. I was on the march in London in February 2003 with a couple of million others and that did absolutely nothing. I think it has gone beyond that and action is needed.

But it's not for the likes of me to start it, though I would willing join in with any movement I truly believed in. We need people who are on the political fringes with good intentions. The action has to be (preferably a peaceful) revolution. In my opinion things have to change - big time!

I have yet to come across any alternative news and blog channels on YouTube along the lines of Secular Talk, Young Turks, Dave Ruben, Joe Rogan et al, that are American based in this country. A movement needs to be formed to enable change. A movement led by intelligent and truly democratic people who are free from the enticements of billionaires. If anyone could point me to such groups in this country it would be appreciated. Having said that I don't want any of your student union type SJW brigades or pseudo-right or left groups out for the interests of a few. I am centre-left and want us to regain the centre-left from the Blairites.

As I said, I want a government formed by the people, for the people.

In reply to Just Another Dave:


Are my sarcasm antenna twitching......?

In reply to Hugh J:



When I dream, I dream of owning a Bugatti Veyron.

In reply to Skyfall:

Is there such an emoticon as an innocent "who me?" face?

In reply to Hugh J:


And yet these disaffected masses elected just one of these corporate billionaires. One who offshored his manufacturing, destroying US jobs, and then ran an election campaign, one thread of which was railing against just such offshoring...

I know it's not fashionable to say people are stupid, but FFS...

In reply to Hugh J:
2016 may, in retrospect, prove to be a pivotal year.

It is always hard to be sure and historical analogies normally conceal more than they reveal, or they reveal more about the person making the analogy than they do about the event being commented on. But there have been certain points, the rise of Saladin, the attack on Pearl Harbour, the fall of Constantinople and others, where a brief period of epic events have changed the direction of history. As the first world war came to its catastrophic end, Lenin was instrumental in the great unglueing - the upset of apparently unchangeable structures and empires. But in the event, they vanished almost overnight, leaving little but ghosts to mark their passing, despite their apparent solidity for centuries.

There are quite a lot of reasons for the tumultuous events of 2016, not least the arrogance, the complacency and the authoritarianism of established order, the Euro apparatchiks, the complacent consensus and conventional wisdom. It turned out that it had neither a great deal of wisdom nor much resilience, one of the obvious things about the EU referendum in the UK was that nobody could find much good to say about the EU - they could only threaten about the risks of uncertainty and change. To the (very limited) extent that either campaign influenced opinion in the referendum, the relentless negativity of the remain campaign seems with 20-20 hindsight self-defeating. It was the mantra of the abusing partner in an abusive relationship - "you'll be nothing without me, no-one will want you, you;ve nowhere to go". Powerful but utterly disreputable, it is the force that keeps thousands of women in homes they loathe with men they hate.

The revolts have come from the despised, from the sneered at, and from the ignored. There is no guarantee that the outcome will be better than what preceded it, but the status quo was so stale, so patronising and so smug that it is hard not to delight in its defeat, no matter what the final result is. Which is probably not a prudent reaction, but is a very human one.

"My enemies enemy is my friend" is not a good guide to judgement, but it is entirely understandable. If Trump so annoys the Guardianistas, it is hard not to project some virtues onto him, which in reality he probably does not possess. But,Oh, the delight in seeing their agony, childish and silly though that response may be.

In reply to Hugh J:

In other watershed related news, I found out today that where I was yesterday, up Pen-y-Ghent, is the watershed between the Irish and North seas.

So there you go.

In reply to Simon4:

Yes, I agree. I voted remain, but I'm actually starting to believe it maybe no bad thing that the result went the other way. For me it was the same as it was for majority of Americans. Clinton was not an ideal, but was significantly the lesser of two evils. But, perhaps we are wrong and were taken in by the rhetoric of the negative side.

I get you're reference to the past. But there is a huge difference between the past and today and that is what you are looking at right now. Each individual has the power to look for alternative news source, alternative view points and be able to communicate with thousands of people almost instantly. I also believe in what Soren Kierkegaard said "Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards." It is impossible to relive the past.

I believe it is the time for big changes in our society and it is coming for go or for bad. If the good won't or can't change it, I think the bad will.

As for some other comments on this thread. A lot of Americans (enough) voted for Trump purely because they were so fed up with the status quo. I also get some of the philosophies of others!

"Jackie O O O please don't die."

In reply to Hugh J:

We don't need a big change, we need to get back to normal: gradual evolution towards a fairer world free from war.

In reply to Pete Pozman:


Getting back to normal will lead to government controlled by the corporations for the corporations.

In reply to Simon4:

And the Daily Mail et al. hasn't been relentlessly negative about the EU (+immigration etc.) for god knows how many years? Certainly the 20 odd years since I passed the average reading age of it's articles. I guess I now get to add FFS, if you think Brexit will be used to make the lives of ordinary people better you have way more optimism than anyone I know.

I don't actually think it'll be that bad, but the erosion of public services will continue and taxpayers money will be spent on more garden bridges while people go hungry/homeless.

In reply to Oliver Houston:


I don't think it will get better for ordinary people in the short term, and I'll be dead of natural causes before it does. However the government of the UK, regardless of it's political persuation, has now lost the "We have to do it because of the EU" excuse. Political parties will have to start delivering.

Plus Turkey, the buffer between Europe and the mayhem in the middle east appears to be sliding into a dictatorship and instability. Should that happen then the overspill of war in the ME will come to Europe. What the EU response will be is hard to tell. Current social conditioning probably means a handful of naive people with "Jidhadis welcome" placards and the EU dithering, followed by a popular swing to the far right. Despite what some posters think the UK are shit at fascism, the rest of Europe less so. What happens next is anybody's guess.

I voted remain, as I believe it was the best option. However the EU was always an authoritarion institution more concerned with the interests of business (TTIP for example) than individual rights. Fine in it's current centre left position. Less so if it moves to the right.

In reply to Thread:

Has anyone actually listened to the Mark Blyth stuff I posted in the OP? He makes a lot of sense to me about the EU, the euro and "Trumpism". What are other peoples thoughts?

In reply to Hugh J:

Funny that, every time I said on these forums that extreme inequality of wealth would inevitably lead to a democratic decline, I was systematically shot down - by the same people who are now voting brexit/ trump etc etc.

People have had enough of the status quo, unfortunately they are really naive (and complacent) if they think it can't get a whole lot worse.

In reply to RomTheBear:

Not by me RTB.


This is why I think we might be in a watershed moment. If the true "centre-left" or even "centre-right" of the upper working class and the middle class don't make a stand, I think things will get worse. Trump is all out for US business, not for it's citizens. The same can be say of May. It seems obvious to me from her recent speech that we are heading for a low corporation tax system and also tax cuts for the extremely wealthy.

However, I am starting to think that a lot of people were not being "naive", they've just had enough of the inequities of the current social system, i.e. corporate democracy. In the UK there is no alternative to left, so people voted with UKIP on Brexit just because they were not the status quo. The exact same has happened in the US and in Greece with Syrisa, but they were the alternative left. In the last 20 to 30 years the "proletariat" have had stagnating wages, have borrowed to the hilt on the hope that the future would improve (which it didn't), whilst the rich have become mega-rich. It is bad for democracy and is just not a fair system, (it is us that makes them the money). It has to stop.

In reply to Hugh J:




Well, when I say, a whole lot worse, I'm not talking about economy and wages.

Time to wake up, this is not about whether you'll be a bit richer or poorer tomorrow, this is about life and death.
Increased protectionism and isolationism can lead only to economic war, grievances, and ultimately, real war. Add to that a weakened NATO alliance (thanks trump) a weakened EU (thanks brexit), an expansionist and ultra nationalist Russia (thanks putin), on a backdrop of a growing climate crisis, and the prospects look bleak.

In reply to Simon4:

TLR? Capital has won.

In reply to Big Ger:


How disappointing that must be when you think of the great dreams others have had. I feel your pain as someone who doesn't remember their dreams, I hope they're not but I suspect their equally banal.
jk

In reply to Hugh J:

Are the peasants revolting again ?

In reply to Hugh J:

I think this is a simplification and over-demonises those who don't buy in to left-wing thinking. The media we trust would have you think anyone from Milo Yianopoullis to Ben Shapiro to Dave Rubin all embody some evil conspiracy, who are pulling strings, or whose strings are being pulled by some evil corporate interests.

The reality is there is a rich vein of right-of-centre, liberal-libertarian, anti-interventionist, small-state thinking that actually has a hell of a lot of credibility and has incredibly strong arguments against the more vocal strands of left wing ideology. Even more credible, it can hold its own against its opposition without having to demand censorship or (for the most part) shouting labels guaranteed to shut down further debate.

There is a backlash against his ideology, and the more we vilify those who do question the left (there is plenty of biased, if not entirely false, news out there against the right too), the more that right-side of the political spectrum will provide a ready home to the disaffected who once found sollace in the left.

I also suspect Brexit and Trump are very different things, with largely different motivations. Trying to bag them up in to one might be missing necessary nuance.

In reply to Simon4:

You just can't help yourself can you?... really interesting stuff but spoiling things at the end by kicking the Guardian and projecting virtues on Trumps nastiness because of this ....all just too tempting. Where do you get the energy for such irrelevant hate?.... if there is a hell I know what you will be reading.

In reply to Simon4:


Much like all kinds of human rights that took a lot of effort to establish, require vigilance to maintain, and could easily be vanish over night. Just because people don't appreciate something, doesn't mean they don't benefit hugely from it - from clean air to and good food, to integration between nations.

There's a very real chance that our dalliance with populist politics and a go-it-alone mentality may in short order show just how ill-conceived and idiotic both are, with their respective supporters either returning cap in hand or in perpetual denial over what they almost unleashed.

What I think really undermines the positive outlook in this change is that while it claims to represent a backlash against the established order, Trump/Farage actually embody established order. All they represent is a changing of hands within that order and not, in my opinion, a positive one. At best it is the four-legs-good taking over from the two-legs-good.

In reply to David Martin:


I have seen stuff by all those you have mentioned. Not too keen on Milo though, I just think he's very self-serving. But they are all Americans or based there (as is Mark Blyth). But, we don't seem to have those voices over here as yet. Or at least I haven't heard them, (that's why I asked in the OP if anyone knew of any).

Whilst we still have individual nations states and there seems to be no desire amongst the populations of these nations for leaving that behind. However, globalisation has been rammed down their throats with no choice but to accept it. This gloabalisation has had some drastic effects on the working class. Though you indicate that EU has supplied workers rights in regards to health & safety, there are a whole load of rights that have disappear as a consequence of globalisation. If the workers say we want better pay and better treatment (BUPA, pensions, etc) corporations can just say, right we're off to China or India. The euro has also caused huge problems for individual nations within the Eurozone, due to fiscal contracts and a lack of control of individual economies when needed. Check out the first Mark Blyth clip that I included in the OP. It also explains why a large section of our society are so fed up with the status quo. (The last and longer of those three clips goes into far more detail). I think I'm with him, pro-Europe, but anti-Euro and anti-centralisation. Many people are fed up with this, sick-to-death! And try find "solace" in anything that offers something else and it doesn't matter how bad an idea it is. This is exactly how Trump came to power and also the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.

It is time to nip that kind of stuff in the bud and for the real democrats amongst to make a stand. I'll say it again. We need a governmet vy the people for the people and not a government by the corporates for the corporates.

I need to find that mentality in others, it is not within my skill set to start political movements or influence existing ones. I am very smart, I've scored over 140 on all the IQ tests I've taken, sometimes over 150. But strangeyly, when it comes expressing my philosophies I'm hopeless, my mind flits around to much and I find it hard to fully express what I truly believe in. My education was also technical, I'm an engineer, not a philosopher (as much as I would like to be).

In reply to RomTheBear:


And I agree with you RTB. This why the true democrats need to make a stand. And that is democrats with both left and right leanings. I see many amongst us on here. We need to stop bickering amongst ourselves in regards of the nuances of social policies and stand up for the basic fundamentals we all believe in - before they are gone.

We just can't "go quietly into the night".

In reply to Hugh J:
I listened to the videos this morning, he makes some good points, which I think were starting to get through during the referendum. That for too long, people have felt ignored and no amount of well intentioned canvassing during election years is going to change that.

Trump and Farage claim to speak for the people, but in reality they are just shouting at the people, whenever the questions get tough they resort to personal attacks to silence their opponents.

While we can't "go quietly into the night", I do think some kind of redressing the balance of power (or at least living standards) would be good for the world. I think the true cost of our high quality of life seems to be the slave-like conditions of workers in the rest of the world. If that means the cost of food and goods goes up here to pay for schools and healthcare in the countries that produce them. I'm OK with that.

My main concern is what actually happens when these policies (Brexit and protectionist trade tariffs) get enacted. The changes in costs of consumer goods could be huge, I don't know of any climbing shoes made in the UK, what if the cost of climbing shoes goes up 30%?

Edit: In case you're wondering the climbing shoe thing is firmly tongue in cheek.

In reply to David Martin:


This would seem to imply the media has a left wing bias? Which is a rather unusual position to take.


Have you got some examples of this. The last bit comes across as the normal complaining about being downtrodden whilst being able to write hundreds of pages about being downtrodden.

In reply to Oliver Houston:


Yes, I'm OK with that too, this is amongst the values a true democrat holds. Whilst there will always be rich and poor, the levels of inequity between even the average wealth, which isn't too far from our average wealth, to the mega-rich is unfathomable. I've heard 8 people own half the wealth in the world! It is not us that should feel guilty. I reckon the personal wealth of my partner and I is around a quarter of a million quid. It's taken us over 30 years to get there. That's around 4 times our yearly income and the vast majority is in property. I don't think I should feel guilty about that. Yet the likes of Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerburg have gone from virtually nothing to billions in that time, whilst avoiding paying their fair share of tax.

In reply to Thread:

Here's Kyle Kulinski giving his whole speil on Justice Democrats. These some great stuff in here. It's long at an hour and a quarter, but it's well worth it and it something I feel we need here as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj_95Ld2g9I&feature=youtu.be

In reply to Hugh J:

You mean takeover like Momentum with Labour The political dogma is undiluted but it actually appeals to less and less of the electorate Tories are in fighting like rabid dogs trying to square the Brexit circle with a small majority but Labour seem to be lemming like marching off a cliff into oblivion UKIP may win the working class North and Tim Fallon is leading a charge to appeal to middle class public sector workers and champagne socialists

In reply to rocksol:

The reason why the Justice Democrats have targeted the DNC as oppose to starting a third party is because of the institutional difficulties inherant in the system. It is the same here. All that Momentum are a rehash of sixties and seventies socialism. The Tories will always be Tories. Maybe the Lib Dems are the way forward? UKIP are the only populist choice. There is nothing for democrats in this counrty. I'm just saying we need to stand up and make our voices heard and create a centrist populist movement, I don't care which party takes up that mantle.

In reply to Hugh J:

I find interesting parrallels between the Regan/Thatcher era. A warmongering president and female prime minister. Though I feel now we are heading beck to the years that preceeded WWII

In reply to Duncan Bourne:


http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-life-can-only-be-understood-backw...

In reply to Hugh J:

Also...
George Santayana
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Touche!

A bit like Comrade Corbyn?

Seriously though, we do remember the past, but thinking we are going to relive it, does that negate the choice of other possiblities? Hmmm . . . . not sure I've got that exactly how I meant it.

The one huge difference we have now, (and many take for granted despite it's young age), is the internet. If the likes of Kyle Kulinski do nothing except open a few eyes and help people understand what is actually going on, then that can only be a positive.. That's what I'm trying to do here, but I also want to have my own eyes opened as well. There is a wealth of knowledge and understanding on this forum, that besides the contrary jokes, is amazing and well worth tapping into. I guess, in a way, I'm asking for help.

In reply to jkarran:



Metaphor is an alien concept to you, isn't it?

In reply to KevinD:


Not an overall bias. But left-wing media is every bit as much an echo chamber as the right and when looked at more objectively is just as prone to distorting issues or repeating mantras as though they are fact.


Quite a few. You can look at the individuals mentioned on YouTube to see the treatment or counter arguments they frequently receive. In my decade+ working on a university campus there were too many examples to recall, it was daily. This ranged from outright abuse, vandalism, complete misrepresentation of facts, never-ending accusations of racism/sexism/misogyny and all allowed as the views were left of centre. The sad aspect was that while certain excesses could be put down to the youth of our students, their activities were either strongly or tacitly supported by academics - the supposed forward thinkers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm of the left. But as of late I've first-hand witnessed more absurdities from that end of the political spectrum than I have of the right. And in my experience the left is as incapable, if not more so, of questioning itself than the right. Just because something is "left" doesn't mean it is automatically correct.

In reply to David Martin:

I couldn't have put it better myself. As I've stated many times here, left wing supporters are becoming more and more 'religious" in the way their views are held and disseminated.

This morning on FB, I got a petition forwarded by a psychiatric nurse I worked with in Blighty. A lovely woman, kind caring and compassionate, but prone to forwarding petitions at a rate of 5-10 per day. This requested I sign up; "To stop the NHS being sold off to big corporations in the USA, as Theresa May's Brexit speech should leave no one in any doubt that she is rushing to do a deal with Donald Trump on privatising the NHS."

When I pointed out to her that the only mention of the Trumpanzee was thus;

"We have started discussions on future trade ties with countries like Australia, New Zealand and India. And President Elect Trump has said Britain is not “at the back of the queue” for a trade deal with the United States, the world's biggest economy, but front of the line."

and that there was no mention of the NHS, her reply was; "It doesn't matter, that's what she meant and I believe it."

In reply to Hugh J:

I am up for helping.
I agree with your original post in that people are fed up of the status quo (and not the rock band) and the common factor with Brexit, Trump and even Corbyn is a dissatifaction with hwo things have been going. Corbyn is a special case as he won the popular vote within the Labour party, rather than with the people, but still represents a desire within the rank and file to shake things up. True he is more "old' labour than "new" labour but that isn't the point.
I think that the broad point of all of it is that we had years of austerity in which the established figures failed to address the voice of the people, or at least a good portion of the people, and descended into a kind of complacency. I was not inspired by anyone in the last election we had not Cameron, not Milliband, not...the other lot. I think a lot of people felt that they were being ignored as it were.
Interestingly it is not across the board. Corbyn may have won the leadership but he has split the party, Brexit was only the narrowest of victories, Trump won but not on the "popular vote" as they say. So there are great divisions in the populace and how that will play out I don't know.
Also as you say the way politics is conducted is changing. In the past it was student protests and marches, now it is internet pressure groups (like 38 degrees) and everyone has a voice. We are bombarded with information and need to pay close attention to what is being said to sort "fake" news from real news, truth from fiction.
What seems to be lacking at the moment is big ideas.

In reply to Hugh J:


The statistic was actually that the richest 8 people own as much wealth as the poorest half of the world. Still a considerable amount of money but given the disparity between the rich half, like us and the poorest half, many living on a few dollars day, its nowhere near half the world's wealth.

In reply to Ridge:


You can just hear the BAE Systems executives salivating at the sales opportunity... It'll be a Saudi away from Saudi.

In unrelated news, look who has been busy signing a bloody big arms deal between BAE Systems and Erdogan... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38779669

In reply to Hugh J:


Greece could again be the tipping point;

In reply to Big Ger:

And you couldn't blame them!

If you listen to Mark Blyth, he asserts that austerity just doesn't work and only makes things worse. He also claims that 95% of the Greek bail outs went straight through Greece back to their creditors, who are . . . . wait for it . . . . the ECB !!!!!

No wonder Alexis Tsipras and Yanis Varoufakis were telling them to bugger off before Merkel and Dr Schauble started playing hard ball. Greece got totally shafted so that Spain and Italy didn't go the same way.

In reply to Hugh J:

I often wonder about this. I see the argument (from Keynesian standpoint) that austerity doesn't work. But if the whole reason you are in a precipitous financial state is a result of over-expenditure, a lack of control, regulation and restraint, more-of-the-same doesn't seem sensible. If a government shows no capacity to spend responsibly then a call for austerity doesn't seem such a bad idea.

In reply to David Martin:

youtube.com/watch?v=S31VLG8Qi78&

Here's Mark Blyth talking about austerity. Worth a listen, but I'm not an economist so I don't know how valid his philosophy is, but it sounds plausible to me.

In reply to Hugh J:


"I don’t have to be told – you know, I’m, like, a smart person."
“We have by far the highest IQ of any Cabinet ever,”

Hugh J and D. Trump... ever been seen in the same room? Justaskin
LD

In reply to pec:

Add to that minor error that the stats used also included those people with negative net wealth i.e. people in rich countries that have borrowed more than their assets (mortgage, loans, credit cards)... all people in high income counties that wouldn't be defined as poor.

Anyway it was intended as an attention grabbing headline for Oxfam, and it worked.

LD

In reply to Lurking Dave:

Hugh JD Trump? I can't say it's ever had that effect on me!

I also mentioned I wasn't a philosopher, but a technician. Logic is more my game, you know, probably somewhere up the spectrum, but I wouldn't say anywhere near psychotic.

In reply to Hugh J:

OK now I have watched the first two videos, please ignore previous post from me, this isn't about comedy, Blyth is a whining pain in the arse. All complaint, no solution.

1. Yes the 1% however you define them got wealthier since 1985(why did he select '85 as a base year?).. but so have everyone, esp. in the OECD.

2. The effect of globalisation on absolute poverty seems to have been entirely overlooked, the MDG were ambitious, improbable... yet some were achieved...or are we just talking about western countries here?

Before you try to define the solution, you need to be clear on the problem. what is it that you want to change?

LD

In reply to Big Ger:


Pretty much but we all have our crosses to bear.

Which bit of your post is a metaphor and for what, is the Veyron is a metaphor for conspicuous consumption?
jk

In reply to Lurking Dave:






The problem is not really about poverty. It's about power. Yes it's true that despite the rich getting richer, the living standard of the poor has increased considerably across the world.

But believe it or not this is not enough, people want to feel that they are in control of their lives, and what sort of control do they have when everything is owned by just a few people ?

Massive inequality of wealth may not be an issue for living standard but it definitely seem to be incompatible with sustainable democratic systems of control. It's not enough for the poor to just be fed and entertained, they need to have a stake in society.

In reply to Hugh J:


There's nothing unusual in that, it's a lot easier to be certain of something you haven't thought about and tried to understand. The reality is there aren't simple solutions, there aren't even simple problems.
jk

In reply to RomTheBear:

And your solution to redistribution of power?

LD

In reply to Lurking Dave:


It starts with spreading wealth better, and have a strong, educated, and large middle class.

I don't really care that much how we do it, but I prefer options that involve the less taxes on work and the less distortion of the market.

One of my favourite option would be to simply tax wealth heavily at the point of death. Given that most of the wealth is in real estate it's actually pretty hard to avoid. Has the benefit of encouraging a meritocracy instead of dynastic wealth.

We can always go down the road of wealth redistribution through huge destruction of capital with massive wars, like we did at the start of the 20th century, but I'd rather avoid that if possible - unfortunately it looks like we're headed that way.

In reply to jkarran:

The whole post is a metaphor for pointless wishing.


Hugh wants "a government formed by the people, for the people."

I want; "a Bugatti Veyron"

I think my dream is more realistic, but I wish Hugh all the best.

In reply to Big Ger:





What was it someone said about big dreams?

(Best of luck trying to get the insurance! )

In reply to Hugh J:

In my dream it comes with free lifetime fully comp, and hot and cold running naked supermodels.