UKC

Just wanted to know opinions on if this is a silly idea or not.
Iv been running on and off for a few years now but didn't really fancy doing any of the dull road marathons out there so would the idea of doing an ultra (35miles) be out of the question if my longest run so far has been 15miles. The ultra I want to do is in June so its about 18 weeks away is that too soon? my current average weekly millage is about 26 miles couple of shorter runs in the week and a long run normally over 10 miles at the weekend.

In reply to edhawk21:

I'm no expert, but (classic uninformed UKC response pending...)

I do similar mileage, about 100 miles/month, spread over about 5 runs a week (3-4 short, one long weekend run, all off road). Longest so far is about 17 miles, after which my knees were really sore. I'm slowly trying to get my body used to longer runs by getting plenty of shorter mileage in and pushing the comfort threshold higher. It takes a long time though.

So, my question would be: how do you feel after your longer runs? Could you keep going, do the same again, or are you at the comfortable limit of your knees/ankles/hips etc. I'd have thought that getting up to ultra distance without buggering your body quite badly will be a real challenge, but it totally depends on how your body responds and what you feel you're capable of.

I will watch the thread with interest as actual experienced runners give their opinions, as I'd like to get my distance up to marathon too. Speaking of which, why not a normal marathon or less distance? Edale Skyline, 9 edges, or something like that. There are lots of great long, hard running challenges that don't necessarily need to be an ultra. Obviously my interest in entirely trail, not evil roads.... your OP seems to imply you're a road runner.

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

I like to mix road and trail when I can but living in Northamptonshire I'm a tad limited when it comes to trails. there is an old railway line that I like to run down now and again that is on a gravel type path that is a tad softer on the knees.

In answer to your other question after the 15.5 miles a did the other week it took me a day or two to recover but I did 12 miles on Saturday and I was fine the day after.

In reply to edhawk21:


It's not exactly a silly idea, but you'll need to up your weekly average a lot. Upping your longest run will take time, and you may discover that you're just not made for longer runs - I know I struggle mentally racing or even just running after about 3 hours, so I have difficulty with marathons and anything longer

Rather than fixate on distance - marathon or more - I'd be tempted to look at more interesting off-road races. There are lots of interesting races of between 10 and 20 miles which are way more appealing than road marathons. For example, the Balmoral 15 at the end of April is a 15 mile trail race through some lovely countryside with a few wee hills to make things interesting. It's also the case that not all road marathons are dull - races like the Strathearn Marathon and the Rannoch Marathon may be run on open roads, but the scenery is wonderful.

In reply to edhawk21:
I actually found Lakes in a Day less knackering than a regular road marathon and I recovered from it far quicker. Sounds odd as it was twice as far and including 4000m of ascent, but in ultras like that you aren't going for quite as much speed at entry level - most people were walking up, running down and jogging flat - it was in many ways more of a hillwalking race. Only one way you can find out, but do be ready to pull out if you get injured so as not to set yourself back generally.

In reply to edhawk21:
Great thread and very relevant to me.

I have done a few marathons in the past but have set myself a few meaty goals this year which includes the 3 Peaks Race in Yorkshire (24 miles) and the Sandstone Trail Challenge (34 miles).

I am currently at the 13-15 mile distance for my longer runs and am experimenting with various fuelling options. Much of my running is done on fell/trail but I am also mixing it up with road distance.

Edit - January came in at 136 miles to give you an idea of what distance I'm covering at the moment.

I would say that there is a missing factor here - pace. I recently went 1hr 28 for the second time for the half marathon, but my pace for the challenges will be much slower. So while I can easily go out and run 13-15 miles at a quick pace, I could do a lot more by dropping my pace and easing back on the effort. Just by dropping to 8 min miles for example, I reckon I could do 20 miles at the moment. So this is a factor as you consider where you are. You certainly seem to be well placed to step it up in time for June, so I would suggest that you keep getting out and keep learning.

Oh, and I wish you the very best!

In reply to edhawk21:
It is absolutely possible for you to get in a position to do an ultra in June - and 26 miles a week is a really good starting point. The crucial thing is to build the miles up slowly and not do more than your body can handle - overuse injuries set you back terribly and can start to become recurrent. 5% increase a week in mileage is quite sensible and conservative, but don't keep upping the mileage regardless if you aren't recovering properly.

There are quite a few good training plans out there which build things up from a similar number of miles per week in a sensible way to get you running races of 35-100miles. These plans generally advocate you doing two long runs twice a week on consecutive days to build up your endurance and recovery, as well as shorter runs throughout the week. They also tend to advocate you taking at least 2 days off a week for recovery. Slowing down the pace makes a massive difference - and it is amazing how far you can go just by not pushing things too fast and managing your nutrition effectively.

A huge component of ultras is the mental aspect - you are unlikely to run 35+ miles and feel super good the whole way! The impact is generally the worst thing and sore legs are definitely going to happen. Nutrition is also very important to keep your supplies topped up and avoid bonking. Having done a number of ultras now I find the crux is in three things - not getting injured, being mentally tough to deal with the misery because you will have low points, and managing nutrition effectively. A lot of good books and online material on all of these things. But yeah - totally doable... Good luck!

In reply to Just William:


These are absolutely the elements that I am discovering/focusing on. Just on the last point - what is your preferred approach to nutrition?

In reply to Rampikino:

I tend to have something small every mile - like a jelly baby - to keep sugar levels up. After about 4 hours running it is recommended to start taking on protein to combat muscle wastage I have heard so I do that - I find salted peanuts usually hit the spot. About every hour/90 mins I try to eat a pretty dense flapjack type bar. I also have carbohydrate powder I put in my bottles to being with and keep having that until I'm totally sick of it and then move onto water. Apart from this I generally follow my cravings when I hit up the feed stations.

I have found it pretty hard to judge how much to eat and have definitely made the error of bingeing more than once and suffered for it being unable to run! I find little, often is a pretty good mantra to go by. It takes a while to read your body to work out what and when you should be eating, but practice goes a long way.

In reply to Just William:

Thanks - I'm doing a lot of experimentation as I build up my longer runs - better do it now while I can!

Salted peanuts sounds like a challenge to eat on the go!

In reply to Neil Williams:

The ultra I'm looking at is this one
http://gobeyondultra.co.uk/events/northants_ultra_shires_and_spires_2017
not only because the start is near my house but also I want to do a run that's less of a race ? if that makes sense! the idea of ultras appeals more because most people are just in it to finish it . Plus running over 30 miles before I'm 31 appeals, but I may just try and do that for fun if I don't enter haha

In reply to edhawk21:

That's less extreme than LIAD so more running and less walking - but you're right about just being in it to finish.

In reply to Just William:


Add to that that on an ultra, if you have a problem (chafing, shoes rubbing, being too hot/cold/whatever) stop and sort it out even if that takes time. You can "man up" through a half marathon, but on a longer race something small at the start has a very high chance of causing you to have to retire once you've got a large number of miles under your belt.

In reply to edhawk21:

Absolutely yes. Even more so if you possess a dose of pig-headedness. I think my longest was 16 before I did the Yorkshireman trail marathon. For a 34 miler I did a handful of 18-22 mile runs. Keep your effort down, keep eating, keep breaking it down into 5 mile chunks or whatever, chat to people you fall into step with. Time passes, you've done it.

In reply to Rampikino:

Sandstone Trail is run by my club and (I think) a great first ultra. Rolling terrain, lots of checkpoint/foodstops. I'll probably be either on a checkpoint or taking pics. I like the fact that it GOES somewhere end to end and traverses an entire OS map. Give us a wave!

In reply to edhawk21:

I think you'll be fine as long as you just want to

• finish only a little under the cut-off
• are prepared to walk some of it without feeling you have failed
• don't get injured
• train consistently using a slightly modified beginners marathon plan (perhaps use a 3 day a week plan and add a shortish extra run on the weekend to get some back to back training)

The biggest risk that I see is that someone tells you that you need to be running 75 miles a week and you increase your mileage very rapidly and end up broken. I was a 80 mile a month runner initially, was injured for just that reason with 9 weeks of no running and did my first 35 mile Ultra on the remaining 7 weeks training (slowly), I was delighted. To my benefit I usually am walking about the same distance a week and quite speedily with lots of hills and I indoor cycled to cross-train. As a pretty talentless, enthusiastic and trained runner I marvel at some of the running feats reported here and elsewhere but I really enjoy it.

In reply to edhawk21:

I think it might be more important if the finish is near your house

In reply to edhawk21:

have a look at this site:
http://www.irunfar.com and http://www.irunfar.com/2017/02/pursuing-the-patient-path.html

In reply to steveriley:


I will do. I live fairly close to the start. I did Helsby Half recently and have yet to try the green socks...

A whole bunch of your guys are well involved in Chester parkrun (I'm the Event Director there) so if you are ever doing Chester on Sat morning come and say hello - just ask for Mat.

I've been running various sections of the Trail to familiarise myself with it. It "should" be a lot drier in May!

In reply to edhawk21:


This absolutely makes sense and is why the Sandstone Trail appeals to me - that and being very local. It comes across as a very relaxed event that is about taking part and less about a race.

In reply to edhawk21:

Interesting this....I'm targeting a trail marathon (4000ft elevation) in June. I didn't like the idea of road either. Done two halfs a couple of years ago, and am currently running 4-5 times a week between 5-10Km, so roughly 20 miles a week.
Gradually building up, so will start trying some of this nutrition advise and anything else that appears.
Thanks for the thread

In reply to edhawk21:

You're doing way more mileage than I was doing before my first ultra (which was approximately zero, with maybe a 12 mile walk every 2 or 3 weeks). And I wasn't even close to last.

You'll be fine.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

What was the event you did and what was your approach? How much were you able to run?

In hindsight would you still do the same? I say this as I'm guessing that your approach is not one that many would advocate as preparation for an Ultra!

In reply to Rampikino:

Howarth Hobble 2007 - I was 173rd out of 234 finishers and a fair few DNFs.

With most such events, I never bother training, or recceing, and rely on general fitness from hill walking. The exceptions I can think of are the High Peak Marathon and the Fellsman, both of which we did a bit of recceing for, which also served as training! In general, I view each event as training for the next one.

So with hindsight I'd do the same, because that's what I still do Certainly not a good approach if you want to win anything! Or if your running is your main source of fitness.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:

What percentage of these would you say you walked? or did you run the whole thing?

In reply to edhawk21:

Depends if you're running it or racing it.
Keep the heart rate low, the pace slow, and walk up the steep is a good tactic.

In reply to Ste Brom:

That was the plan! survival rather then racing. So for that reason I'm hoping to complete in around 7hours? maybe 8? I have to be realistic right?

In reply to Rampikino:

My #4vhm socks are too cosy to run in the filth. Chester parkrun seems to be doing really well - you must be proud. You're right about the conditions, top end of the Sandstone is pretty sloppy at the moment (should be out tonight later). Dry weather is booked for May.

Back on topic, use longer runs to fiddle around with nutrition, clothes, bag/bumbag, etc. It's all doable. I'm a long way from 'athlete' - look after yourself and keeping going.

In reply to edhawk21:
Depends on the steep.
If its flat, 35 mile at a 6min/km pace is about 5hr 30 min, with 5-10 min added for every 100 metre vertical walked, levelling out if descent is equivalent and run.
That's the principal I work off, but then, I tried the same cabbage soup diet as the missus and ended up in hospital with chronic flatulence. It may work for you.

Oh, and eat something every 20 minutes.

In reply to edhawk21:

Two summers ago, with only 2 weeks notice I did a 32 mile trail ultra. Training in the weeks before...well none for about 6 weeks and about 25 miles per week before that.

I hadn't ever run a marathon, road, trail or otherwise, and although it hurt a bit due to an injury I was carrying, I have done more bonkers things.

Last summer I tried its big brother, a 64 mile trail ultra and puked myself out of the race after 50 miles in 10.5hrs! First ever DNF in anything....

Plenty of time for you to train, plenty of good advice on here about how much etc.

Only advice from me is work out the nutrition well in advance. Puking up jelly beans eaten in desperation because I ran myself out too far was very very unpleasant !!!

In reply to edhawk21:

I walk all the uphills, run most of the downhills, and flat bits are a mixture (with more running than walking at the start, the other way round at the end!)

In reply to edhawk21:
I'm of the approach that if you want to do it give it a try. But there are two things which puzzle me about Trail races. Firstly, why do people think about the distance? Once you're off road the relevant measure of how you'll find a race is time, so my long run at the weekend might be a 3 hour run and depending on terrain that will vary a lot in terms of distance. When I look at races I look at the record time and add 60% to estimate what it will take me (obviously different for everyone and something you'll work out after a couple of events).
Secondly why go for a Trail race when there are fantastic Fell races (see Fell Running Association calendar). Typically fell races are low key, a third of the cost of your average Trail race and more interesting terrain (health warning - may require navigation skills). Some people like the hype of trail races - each to their own.

In reply to gaw:


Personally I do both! I will be at the Long Mynd Valley Fell Race this Sunday, but I also do trail races and runs too.

Best of all worlds!

In reply to gaw:


That navigation skills thing is an issue for some - not everyone can read a map. In fact I've seen a kit list for a trail ultra that included a line something like "map and compass are not mandatory because we know some of you don't know how use them anyway..."
(That race costs £35 to enter, which is less than £1 a mile...)

In reply to edhawk21:

right iv signed up now to crack on with 16 weeks of gradually increasing millage