UKC

hello folks,

I find myself abandoning climbs before reaching the lower-off and losing the odd krab or maillon.
I'd like to avoid that by having a device that can be put through a standard angled hanger-bolt hole that allows a krab to be attached to it below the hole and a pin to be inserted above with the idea that the pin supports the device with attached rope and climber.
The pin is then removed once the climber has descended.
how so? I'm climbing solo and have the remainder of the rope in a backpack to abseil with.
with the ascent side of the rope tied to the pin, I would pull it, once down, to release the pin and hence the rope.
does such a device exist?
I'm currently using a bottle opener through a loop of rope pushed through the hanger hole but that's too harsh on the rope for my taste. the taper in the bottle opener keeps it from falling out inadvertantly.

thanks,
K.

In reply to kritter:

You could get to the belay using a cheat stick.

In reply to kritter:
Diagram of said conceptual contraption and imagined placement please ?
...And I really love a profile- preferably real - I'm a bit old fashioned that way...

In reply to kritter:

Here's the process I'd go through bailing off a sport route I can't climb assuming there isn't someone stronger at the crag:
Attempt to french free the hard bits,
Summon up a clip stick and attach myself directly to the closest bolt, clip next bolt and haul up on the rope, rinse and repeat until anchors are reached,
If the bolts are staples (most of the bolts I clipped on Portland were like this), you can simply thread a single bolt as you would a lower off,
Is the bolt good and am I less than 1/3 of my rope length off the deck? If so apply texas rope trick
Abandon gear

Usually when I'm sport climbing I'll have stronger mates there so I'll just ask them nicely to strip the draws when they're done on their route.

In reply to kritter:

Another alternative to lowering off or clip sticking for glory (both of which I also do) is to down climb/dog/drop. Less faff and you get a bit of down climbing and a bit of falling practice. Works best when the first bolt isn't too high off the ground and/or has easy climbing.

In reply to kritter:

In addition to what everybody else has said, leaving maillons is profoundly antisocial. The next person on the route then arrives at the bolt and finds their clip obstructed by a piece of junk that is difficult to remove one handed. Karabiners aren't expensive: use one if you need to leave something.

In reply to kritter:

Can I see if I understand. Are you soloing some bolted climbs to a certain height which is dependent on your rope length, then pushing a loop of rope through the bolt and then your bottle opener through the loop thus creating a pin holding your rope in place. You then have rope attached to the bottle opener so you can pull the pin and so retrieve your rope when you reach the ground? If this is what your doing please stop before something goes wrong and you get hurt. Perhaps I have misunderstood?

In reply to kritter:

Officially called at 07:36.

In reply to kritter:
What I've seen on a French mountain crag once was a loop of 4-6mm tat pushed through the bolt, leaving a loop on each side hanging down, the rope threaded through them and then abseiled on. When the next climber gets to the bolt, they just have to pull the loop away to clip. I can't imagine it's easy to set up if you are hanging off the bolt, but I thought it quite tidy.

Other than that, I'm all for leaving mallions at home and using a crab. Mallions on a bolt with crab clipped above can cause all sorts of crazy loading on the crab and bolt.

If you have the option of lowering off a staple, it's better to pull more rope through and abseil, as the rope is unloaded when pulling through the staple and will wear it less. Gritty ropes act like a file.

??? I didn't even comment on your idea! I'd be very scared having a quick release anchor above me, so some safety, or lock when weighted would be good. Have you looked at a Fifi hook? Or maybe 2 back to back and a flicking competition?

In reply to kritter:
I've left a crab, then once down climbed an easier route nearby (assuming there is one) then when abbing from the top of that, tensioned across and rescued my crab. Obviously won't work unless the routes are fairly close together and the rescue route is easier, but it has been an option.

I agree with the comment about not leaving a mallion - it's very selfish

In reply to kritter:

Just in case anyone reads your obvious troll and takes it seriously: A bottle opener belay is a bad idea, they're made from biscuits and you're gunna die.

Better options for anyone actually seeking advice:
*Switch to an easier line to access the belay.
*Lower off and ask someone better than you to get your kit back.
*Rest and cheat your way to the belay, clipstick is very useful.
*From sub 1/3 rope length you can thread a sling through the bolt, ab to the floor and retrieve the sling using the tail of the rope.
*Abandon a krab.
jk

In reply to jkarran:



There's a version of this for trad. You need 1/2 a rope length, and you tie the other end to the trigger of a bomber cam.

In reply to kritter:

If lowering from a single bolt i back it up with a prusik, as per:

http://www.ascenttraining.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Lowering-of-a-si...

Adds some redundancy (assuming you still have the other clips in). From your description, it sounds like backing up your bottle opener would definitely be a good idea!

In reply to FreshSlate:

That sounds fairly high risk to me!
jk

In reply to jonnie3430:


I always clip the bolt by going under the maillon, that removes the worry about weird loadings,

Chris

In reply to jonnie3430:


that's very true, but why not just clip the mallion..........

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I've seen it where the crab had lifted and the mallion slid underneath. Still worked, but would rather not have them on!

In reply to daWalt:

Which one is designed to take a fall?

Have seen Kong Panic stiff extremely long quick draw few times. It make getting to next bolt a bit easier. Same principle as clip stick, but looks like less hassle. Not sure really - never used either.

I normally use Grivel PAS as my anchor and it can be used for aid when clipped to a bolt if I am stuck.

In reply to jonnie3430:
8mm mallion rated to 40kn - that's more than your average biner......
(other sizes and thicknesses are available)
and manufactured to EN 12275 - as other climbing metalwork is.

In reply to daWalt:

The other problem of clipping a maillon (apart from just being a pain in the arse since it isn't captive) is that it orientates the to karibiner at right angles to the rock rater than flat to it.

Basically maillons are just antisocial litter.

In reply to GrahamD:


as is tat, chains, bolts and all the rest.
but this is just a distraction form the real issue: WTF is someone doing abing off a bottle opener..........

In reply to daWalt:

Bolts and chains aren't litter and at least tat doesn't impede climbing. And no one is abseiling off a bottle opener - its a troll

In reply to kingborris:


I believe a garlic press is the conventional item used in such circumstances.

In reply to GrahamD:

tat can be just as much a pain as anything else, depends a lot on how it's tied.
biners also, rusted locking biners with a stuck gate.....

maillons really don't bother me (if they're EN rated and in good nick) but I'm not here to try and convince anyone of anything when it comes to peoples personal bugbears.

back to the subject at hand:
There was devices mooted in the past for single-rope-abb-retrieval, including some spring loaded death contraption I think invented by Bonati.......
just don't have the time to search the noo......

In reply to kritter:

If you're going to stay with your current method at least use a biner instead of a bottle opener. No chance of the rope accidentally slipping off it and will drop to ground when rope pulled out.

In reply to daWalt:



I agree with that on bolted routes, tat is a pain. But snap gate bail out karibiners are quick to remove. Maillons are almost impossible to remove without messing up your clean ascent and there is no reason for them being there.

You don't need to invent fancy contraptions, there are a few knots which work under load and can be shaken loose when the load is removed. Needless to say I haven't tried them.

In reply to daWalt:

Assuming the gate is done up properly, and it hasn't rusted (by which time it will be hard work to remove).


If that's what it is. Look at previous threads on here and you'll find plenty of folk who say properly rated maillons are a waste of money and that they buy cheapo quicklinks from Screwfix instead.

Still, easy enough to closely inspect it for corrosion, have a look to see if it has the CE mark etc. stamped into it and just check that it's done up fully before clipping it on the lead eh?

No doubt about it - If you can't retreat without leaving something, a 'leaver biner' is much less antisocial.

Assuming for a moment that the OP isn't a troll (even though it obviously is), with a bit of practice I bet you could use the rope to flick a fifi-hook out of a bolt hanger. Or failing that come up with a 'death-mod' to pull the triggers on a Kong Frog with a cord.

In reply to daWalt:

It doesn't need to be tied to the bolt at all.

Tied in a loop, like a short prusik loop, it could simply be 'basketed' through the bolt hanger. After the abseil rope has been pulled it's just like a short sling poked through the bolt hanger, very easily removed with one hand if it doesn't fall out on its own first.

In reply to kritter:

lol op

In reply to deepsoup:



If you're brave you use a length of bungie cord and a prussic to allow the fifi to relaease itself as soon as you unweight the rope.

I've experimented and it works just fine but I've never been brave enough to try it for real

In reply to kritter:

Abseil off a fifi hook and just flick it out once down.
I've tried this from the first bolt a few metres up. It works very well but it would be very scary high up the crag!!
Take care

In reply to daWalt:


Not Bonatti:-

http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Misc/MostMiscPages/MostMisc0640...

In reply to Ian Parsons:

My favoured system (being a yorkshireman who hates to leave any gear) is to thread a very long sling, doubled through the bolt, prussic or ab down it to next bolt, pull the sling through to retrieve and repeat. You are always protected by the bolt below and the lead rope still attached to you (which can be used to pull you into the next bolt.) A bit time consuming, but safe and leaves no gear. The long sling weighs very little and can also be used for your trad days.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

that's the one, cheers.
death-on-a-spring.........

In reply to timjones:

Yes, "brave" is one word you might use.

In reply to kristian:


In reply to myself I would like to stress that pulling long lengths of slack through when sticking distant bolts can be increadibly dangerous when the bolt/rock you are attached to is of questionable quality.
In this scenario I stick the next bolt with a chain of draws or long slings and just hand over hand/Etrier up. This is also often a lot quicker and a lot less fidderly than clipping with a heavy rope.

In reply to kristian:

the OP says they're soloing, so armfuls of slck isn't really an issue.

In reply to GrahamD:


Although the OP writes "climbing solo", I suspect that he actually means backrope soloing - ie unaccompanied self-belayed leading. He mentions having "the remainder of the rope in a backpack" - not just "the rope" - which is a fairly standard way of reducing the weight of the dead rope in a backrope system and hence allowing it to feed more easily; if one was simply free-soloing and carrying a rope to get back down, it would make more sense to trail it rather than carry a rucksack.

In reply to GrahamD:

They also have not described the method of solo, there are many different forms. My post was intended to inform the wider community of a real danger when stick clipping off dubious gear.
Not relivent to most people but I reequip sport routes in the Peak for the local fund. Quite often without crag top access. The existing bolts are often clumbs of rust that you would not want to trust without the lower bolts in the system. I usually do this aid solo using two ends of the rope, alternating ends with the stick and using a second belay/asender device.

In reply to kristian:

Fair point. The OP is obviously a troll but its an interesting discussion nevertheless