UKC

I've been enjoying getting back into climbing this past year after more than 20 years off altogether. I'm not getting any younger (wrong side of 55 lol) so have been taking it pretty steady but been trying to step it up a bit on the walls. My weakness this year has definitely been endurance - had 2 trips to Kalymnos and generally failing on routes because I run out of oomph more often than failing on a particularly difficult move.

So been doing loads of wall routes, mixing volume laps of easier stuff (6a/6a+) with the odd harder session working stuff at my Limit (leading 6b+/6c, toproping 7a ish).

Tried some of these 4x4s on the bouldering wall today - 4 problems in quick succession, 4 mins rest and repeat 4 times. Spent nearly an hour prior to that working problems at my limit. Trouble is I'm absolutely knackered now and can barely lift my arms to drink a cup of tea. Was having trouble powering through on moves towards the end rather than fingers opening up.

I didn't get particularly pumped doing the 4x4s - I failed on one problem in the third set. First two sets overhanging and then moved to vertical to finish. But I'm feeling really sort of powered down. Somebody told me I should be feeling really pumped but I'm getting much more of a general soreness in my upper arms. What should you expect to feel doing these?

I'm going back to Kalymnos in Late April and not sure what I should be working on to give me the best shot at some 6c/7as. They're not going to be wildly overhanging at that grade but will continuing with 4x4s in the mix be as useful as doing more volume on the lead wall?
Cheers

In reply to Bob Conley:

I climb at about a similar level and I've come to the conclusion (possibly erroneous) that 4x4s are not the best use of my time. Reason being that I simply can't boulder hard enough to have a good choice of problems.

I've had better results doing circuits and working hard problems. Eventually I'm looking to get to the point where I can incorporate, say, V4s into a 4x4 routine at which point I'll revisit the exercise.

On the other hand, you may be a much better boulderers and so don't have this experience.

In reply to Bob Conley:

I'm 69 and agree it does not get any easier. My problem is that I just treat indoors the same as outdoors and sport the same as trad. I'm not disciplined enough to stick to a "training" regime and with this attitude I acknowledge that I am holding myself back but despite this I think I can still climb 7a just by climbing more. Nearly made it in Kalymnos in October unfortunately the 7a's in my old guide were only 6c+ in the new but he ho.

I read some time ago that in order to gain 5c/6a you only needed to climb twice a week, 3 times would get you to 6a+/6b+ and 4 times would get you to 7a or something along those lines. My personal experience and observations seem to bear this out and to be honest my ambitions don't go beyond that so there is hope yet for me.

Al

In reply to Bob Conley:

I'm no expert, but if endurance is your problem, might be better doing 4x4's on the lead wall than the boulder cave...

In reply to planetmarshall:
Cheers, I can only do a few of the V3s but had read you need to step down a bit for the 4x4s so they're basically all around V1/V2 - essentially the blue circuit at red goat.

I enjoy doing the whole curcuit for volume but reducing the rest time certainly gives me a different tiredness. Someone suggested it takes 4 or 5 sessions to appreciate it so I'll carry on for a few weeks. It's different anyway so that makes it more interesting.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Completely knackered? And if you're not make it 5x5 or 2x(4x4) or ax(bxc) as appropriate.....

In reply to GridNorth:
We must have overlapped in Kalymnos - was there 4-25 th October!
I've been doing pretty much what you're saying, mainly 3 times a week but stepping up to 4 on occasion. A few weeks of that and I have to ease off again and have a week or two of 1 or 2 sessions. The main problem I'm finding is recovery time but it's improving.

Essentially just been doing what we used to do years ago and seeing steady improvements but they come in fits and starts. Was just wondering if I could turbocharge the process a bit lol. 7a is pretty much my target, I'd be ecstatic if I could tick any of those this coming year. Lead some 6b+ last visit so may be optimistic but I've got the time to train as long as I rest in between.

In reply to dr_botnik:
Cheers, I mix a few of those on the lead wall too but have to drive there. There's a boukdering wall much closer so was wanting to use that a bit more, good for variety too.

In reply to Bob Conley:
Hi Bob,

Work your core, could be you remembered how to pull hard but not push hard with a stiff core. You could be pumping out due to putting more weight than necessary on the arms.

Good luck with the return to fitness

In reply to Bob Conley:

Try doing pyramid blocks of leading with a patient mate. For example do 5+, 6a, 6a+ then your mate does 3
Next block you do 6a, 6a+, 6b, then your mate does 3, final block you do 6a+, 6a, 5+.
Pyramid can be adjusted to peak at your target grade as you adapt.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Cheers, it was the 'type of knackered' I was interested in. People suggested I should feel a deep forearm pump from these but I just feel like I couldn't pull on anything right now, really powered down. Not a forearm pump but a totally wasted feeling. I know it'll still do me good in the end lol.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Ideally you want to fail on the 4th rep of your 4th set. Also make sure your 4 minutes rest isn't longer than the time taken to climb each set. Rest for only the time it takes to complete 4 reps. It's generally pretty hard to find 4 suitable problems of the right degree of difficulty. If possible, have alternative choices available if someone jumps on your 3rd or 4th problem before you've got to it.

It might be that you got more tired from your earlier 'limit bouldering' than the 4x4s, which may not have been hard enough.

In reply to Bob Conley:

I was there for a month, from end of September to 25th October. I used to be able to manage four days climbing near my limit before I needed a rest but on this trip I discovered that two days then a rest day was best for optimum performance. I find indoors very hard and intense. On the one hand I want to do more to improve but it becomes a case of diminishing returns so I have to balance against my aspirations.

Al

In reply to alx:
Cheers, that's a good point. Walls weren't as steep as this in the old days so been having to get used to all this twisting malarkey lol. I do Pilates twice a week which helps but it's a good reminder to work on it more when climbing.

In reply to Fraser:

Thanks, it was my first go at a complete set today so suffered a bit chasing round in a busy morning. You're right that the first half was tiring too but I was recommended doing strength/limit stuff first before any endurance. Mind you at the grades I'm doing it probably doesn't make any real difference. Trouble is though, if I don't have a plan I just get sucked into doing random stuff.

In reply to Bob Conley:

If you've got auto belays at your centre, try a full length 6a route for your 4x4s, if you can do that increase to 6a+ etc

In reply to Bob Conley:

As far as I understand "really powered down" is exactly how you should feel from bouldering 4x4's (anaerobic capacity).
Deep forearm pump would be from aerobic endurance training, like doing endless circuits on the wall.

In reply to Fraser:


Yes, that was my experience. And if you have to restrict yourself to V1s and V2s in order to complete a set, as I do, then the exercise can become a bit frustrating. I found that it's not an ideal exercise for a busy gym, and that circuit style exercises are easier to complete.

In reply to Bob Conley: Boulder 4x4s would fall into aerobic power training (around 30 moves & <120s). You shouldn't be resting or falling because of cruxes -I'd say it's probably easier to achieve this on overhanging ground. And you should be getting very pumped!

It sounds like you'd hit some sort of wall and couldn't pull enough post a boulder session to produce the required lactic acid.

Have a read of this: https://www.trainingbeta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/1.-Alex-Barrows-Tra...

In reply to planetmarshall:


Is that because that level is normally very busy? I can't see myself moving onto V3s for this exercise for a while yet. I started off by repeating the same problem - others were taken up so I just stayed on it. I can generally get there on a weekday morning when it's a lot quieter so it shouldn't be quite so tricky next time.

In reply to Gerry Gradewell:


No, a 4x4 workout is anaerobic training. They train you to stay focused and to move well even when you're super pumped.

In reply to Bob Conley:


Sounds about right

In reply to Gerry Gradewell:

Cheers, yes I did read that and it's one of the reasons I get so confused now. I was advised, and came to the same conclusion myself, that at my current level it would be far better to simplify this dramatically to several core sessions, and rotate them around.

Hence some wall sessions with a mix of laps, some maximum onsight practise. Then some bouldering with a mix of limit stuff for strength, volume for endurance and 4x4s for sustaining power.

There are several other sources suggest the 4x4 is a power endurance exercise rather than aerobic. Certainly for me, my arms just emptied out, rather than any deep burning pump. But, at the end of the day, it's all doing me good, just wondering if I could be using time more profitably for now.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Good way of developing endurance at a bouldering wall is to try each problem at a particular grade/circuit within 3 goes or 5 mins whichever shortest and move straight onto the next problem. Should be at about flash limit as will get harder as you push on...

In reply to Bob Conley:

Power endurance on boulder problems, endurance on routes (presumably....... ).

In reply to Bob Conley:


In my experience, 4x4s will Leave you totally boxed. Not just forearms, but totally. Sounds like you are doing them right!

In reply to Fraser: really? Doesn't the theory go that the aerobic system is working full tilt and therefore getting the most stimulus?

In reply to Bob Conley: yeah specific rather than mixed sessions would seem the less risky approach.

Are you trying to onsight or red point a 7a? If onsighting then your aero cap system will need to be good (assuming an endurance route), and if red pointing your aero pow/power endurance system, which will need a base of aero cap. So, both would point to some extended continuous climbing as preparation

In reply to Gerry Gradewell:



Hi Gerry,
I've not really been thinking of it from that point of view. I'd lead some 7a's and the odd 7b in the mid 80s but didn't do much since. We just used to think onsight, or a fall or two, never spent much time working a route.
I never thought I'd get climbing again and before the first Kalymnos trip last May I said I'd be happy doing 6a's. Now I'd just like to get going again on some 7a's - at least some quality 6cs - before it all starts getting too hard (I'm 58).

I had a go at leading one in October but just got pumped out, too knackered for a second go. It was juggy and overhanging for 20 odd metres but I could see myself doing it with a substantial increase in endurance.

So I'm guessing aero capacity is a big focus but also the ability to pull out a few good moves after a sustained pumpy section. From the 7a's I've toproped, I'm failing by being unable to string the whole sequence together. After a short rest on the rope I'm usually able to continue. I'm not sure whether that's simple endurance or power endurance. Same story with leading 6c on the walls - can do most with a small fall or two but it's stringing them together in one go I find hard.

Certainly it's the steep endurance I'm finding it hardest to get back - strength seems easier to sort out.

In reply to Gerry Gradewell:

With 4x4s, assuming you can pitch the level of difficulty correctly, you need to have crossed from your aerobic to anaerobic system to derive your energy. You're trying to get your body accustomed to dealing with the lactic build up which you wouldn't be getting if you're only training your aerobic system. Again, that's why it's important to maintain a level of difficulty such that you have not totally recovered between sets, otherwise you're reverting to deriving your energy from your aerobic system. Similarly, if the problems are too easy, you won't cross over into using the anaerobic system. Doing 4x4s is an attempt to delay reaching your anaerobic threshold, at which point is a race against time before imminent failure, assuming the same level of intensity is maintained. It's hard to get it right, but if you do it's a very worthwhile training activity.

'The Self Coached Climber' had a very good section on this and I recommend giving it a read. Here's a brief description though from a couple of other sites which are relevant:

http://www.kwmassage.com/generalmassagetherapy/aerobic-vs-anaerobic-trainin...

https://www.climbstrong.com/articles/20130626

In reply to Fraser:

I think you're maybe talking at cross purposes somewhat in terms of terminology - in the "energy systems" lingo boulder 4x4s are definitely not anaerobic capacity. However, SCC would say they are power endurance and so "anaerobic"

If you're doing it for what, 2.5 minutes per set or something most of your energy is being derived aerobically. You're crossing the aerobic threshold, but you're crossing it into the mixed zone rather than into a fully anaerobic zone (which would typically involve sets 40-50s long as that's about as long as you can work fully anaerobically for)

In reply to AJM:
Perhaps I am, but what I was trying to say was that 4x4s are a way to train your anaerobic endurance, not your aerobic endurance.

Edit: sorry I see what you're getting at now. Gerry's original post stated "training aerobic *power*", whereas I failed to register the 'power' bit.

In reply to dr_botnik:

Really confused as to why someone gave this suggestion a dislike??? If you'd prefer to go to bouldering wall than lead wall, this is seriously one of the best exercises you can do. One session of this a week, one session of limit bouldering, then try lead wall for your third (less intense) session. Can't think of a simpler but effective all around routine.

In reply to Bob Conley:

You should feel painfully pumped. Deep pain in your four arms.

In reply to sebastian dangerfield:

Wish I had four arms, then I could keep two spare for the crux section

In reply to dr_botnik:

Cheers, it was good advice. The volume stuff with pace is something I was doing before trying the 4x4 and it feels like a good session. In fact what you're describing is pretty much what I try and do on 3 sessions a week, though sometimes switch a boulder for another wall session.

In reply to AJM:


This is where I just get totally confused lol. Its that bit about anaerobic capacity or power endurance.

So if the 4x4s are more aerobic power, is it best leaving them for now until a month or so before I go away? Maybe focus on volume bouldering and lead wall endurance? I think the bottom line is I just have to get out and climb more

In reply to Bob Conley:

For 7a in Kalymnos, I'd sack the 4x4 boulders in favour of 4x4 routes. I'd also work on your redpointing technic. I.e. Working out how to rest and shake out mid route and how to time your rests between attempts. Even the steep short routes like DNA are all about recovery at knee bars rests and the like.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Regardless of what words you use to describe them, boulder 4x4s have always been a "1-2 months before you go away" sort of thing, so yes save those for now and concentrate on base phase training...

In reply to planetmarshall:


At anywhere but the start of the block, 4x4s that include V4 problems are pretty solid training efforts. I mean, thinking in route terms, you have to be on reasonably high grades before doing V4 whilst boxed off your nut is part of what's expected.....

In reply to AJM:


Sure, but I'm talking about indoor grades here, and by V4 I mean 'not the easiest thing in the gym'

In reply to JLS:


Cheers, that's sort of the conclusion I'd come to but was trying to incorporate a valuable session down the boukdering wall for endurance, as well as for strength.

In reply to planetmarshall:


I never really know what the actual grade is though in an indoors context.

For instance, for limit stuff I work at is the green circuit which is V3 to V5, and can do about a quarter of them with the odd red which are V4-V6. I guess that means I'm doing some of the V3s, perhaps the odd V4. I'm significantly better at limestone type small holds crispy stuff than swinging dynamically on rounded volumes.

But there are three levels beneath this - the blues which are V1-V2 which is what I use for volume, seem to be equivalent to French 6b/6b+ down the lead wall. I find doing the whole circuit quite draining anyway.

In reply to Bob Conley:

My experience is that for boulder 4x4s, I feel powered out more than pumped. I do get very pumped, but not as pumped as doing boulder circuits or route 4x4s.

For 7a, I would personally focus on being able to climb well doing route 4x4s at 6b or 6b+, and having the strength to be able to boulder consistently at around V4. Build your aerobic and strength bases. At the bouldering wall volume sessions on the easy circuits without rest for 10-20 minutes, rest then repeat 4x is a good workout for base endurance too.
Then about 6 weeks before the trip work in the anaerobic and aerobic power stuff, boulder 4x4s at around V2 level, along with boulder circuits or foot on campussing doing 6-8 sets timing your rests so they're equal to or less than your climbing time.

^^^ what he (RockSteady) said.

Current thinking seems to be to build the two ends (strength and local aerobic endurAnce) as the first half (or so) of the training period, then a couple of weeks of power (limit bouldering and campus), then anaerobic endurance like Boulder 4x4s in the weeks before performing/trip.

One personal observation about Boulder 4x4s is they can be particularly tweaky. Because I end up pumped out my mind throwing for one more move, and inevitably levels of control are lowered. Thus these days I try and do just enough of them, rather than heaps.

I do think (local) aerobic endurance is pretty valuable in Kaly, where there are generally good rests and recovering at them is key. I'm a big fan of route 4x4s for this as others have said. And also lower end stuff like continuous climbing for 15' (iirc I was doing up f6a down f5/+ continuously on vert or mild oh terrain at the same time as I was (almost) managing route 4x4 on 6b/+ mild oh).

Lastly good luck, let us know how you go!

In reply to Siderunner:

Actually, to build on what is said above, I think that Kaly is quite a physical style of climbing. Next time I go I am going to add circuit training into my preparation, doing some pull ups, press ups, core work on top of the more climbing specific stuff. Just think it helps a bit with tufa wrestling. Good luck with your training!

In reply to RockSteady:
Cheers, I'll try and fit in some more 4x4s down the lead wall I think then, but doing them with 6b throughout will be tough. Looking back I think I was doing them in 3s and not 4s so a recent session looked like this:
5 6a 6a+
6b+ 6b 6a+
6b 6a+ 6a then toprope 3 or 4 more. I'd normally do between 12-18 routes at Harrogate/Leeds so only 12m or so. But before the last October trip I was only getting about 8 routes done so I guess I need to keep pushing volume. Going to try it tomorrow.

Trouble is my friends keep saying I should be trying and working more 6c and 7a but this seems to be more anaerobic stuff. They reckon that climbing a lot of 6a/b makes you good at climbing a lot of 6a/b and not much else. But I wonder if that's because their aerobic capacity is so good anyway as they pretty much carried on climbing when I took so many years out?

Having said that one or two of them do sneak down onto the autobelay for 20+ pitch sessions.

In reply to Bob Conley:

If you can top rope 7a but only lead 6b+/6c then the problem is more to do with your head than your fitness. Clearly you already have the fitness but you just not willing to push yourself as hard when leading. I would go back to your wall and set yourself the goal of leading all the 6c's, all the 6c+'s and all the 7a's. Get used to falling, get used to climbing at your limit while leading. If you can climb a decent amount (min 3 sessions pw) your endurance will improve too.

In reply to Bob Conley:


I'd say listen to your friends. Doing more 6c's and 7a's will be taking you more out of your comfort zone which is exactly what you need to do.

In reply to Bob Conley:

>"Trouble is my friends keep saying I should be trying and working more 6c and 7a but this seems to be more anaerobic stuff. They reckon that climbing a lot of 6a/b makes you good at climbing a lot of 6a/b and not much else. But I wonder if that's because their aerobic capacity is so good anyway as they pretty much carried on climbing when I took so many years out?"

As well as once weekly 4x4 routes to max up your fitness, I think you should mostly be spending your time projecting indoors 7a's for redpointing experience. Until you've done it a few times, it can be hard to imagine that redpointing a 7a isnt really much harder than on sighting 6b. Redpointing is good training for redpointing and if it's not something you are used to doing, the experience will actually be worth more "to you" than more specific training protocols.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Good going fella, you should feel pretty wasted. I do at 49. You might try 1-2-3-2-1's, i.e. 1 minute on the wall moving strongly and smoothly with good technique, then one minutes rest. 2 mins on the wall, 2 mins rest..... you get the picture. Have a look at the holds you can use and try and make sure they replicate the difficulty you would expect on the grades you are looking to climb outdoors. This will get you insanely pumped if you really apply yourself. Don't expect to stay on the wall for the whole exercise, but get straight back on when you come off and make every second count.

Re: the 4x4's, as you are perhaps wisely keeping the grades to a workable level, make up a few rules to increase difficulty. My fav is (with the aid of a partner), if your technique fails, you start again. This makes for a more mindful exercise and encourages a more realistic development in relation to climbing generally, i.e. no point in being able to endure more pump if your climbing technique goes to pot?

Feet on campus grips are also a great PE exercise. Start with both hands on rung 1 and move the right to rung 2, hold for 3 seconds and extend the right to rung 3 and so on. For most people rung 4 will start testing your core as after a couple of sets on both arms you will pump out eventually. Use the large rungs and it makes for a safe, low risk but high yielding exercise. Perhaps incorporate 1 or more exercises into your session when you feel the time is right, as you'll probably become comfortable with your present 4x4 session and other exercises will give you breadth whilst you consider using harder grades for the 4x4. Best of luck

For route "4x4" I think the counts are a bit arbitrary. 3x3 is prob a good pkace to start, then go to 4x3 and then 3x4. I used to prefer harder moves to foing down a grade to get the full 16. On harder grades I also used a timed rest between each route (1 minute i think) - again to enable a higher intensity. I figured the continuous climbing ticked the lower intensity box. Havent done anything like this for years due to lack of partners and convenient wall fo this, sadly.

Do agree that sessions projecting indoors are an wxcellent idea. Practise falls may be in order too. Generally if I can toprope it then I can lead it when it comes to sport/indoors, unless the clips are heinous to get on. I think that's true for most regular sport climbers.

(ps sorry for typos, fat thumbs!)

In reply to stp:


Cheers, I was trying to do more of this but as I upped the volume of training I found it more difficult to coordinate these sessions with feeling fresh. Today I'm still knackered from Sunday's 4x4s so will do some volume/easier 4x4 routes, but I'll aim for a projecting session on Friday after 2 days off.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Another way of doing it would be to try a couple of 6c 7a routes after warming up and then do 4 x 4 on easier routes

In reply to JLS:

I agree. Our climbing culture has an over-emphasis on strength and endurance to the detriment of all the other skills required to climb hard. For top climbers these are often the most limiting factors, but for the rest of us improving mental focus, skill and technique and good tactics are likely to be a much quicker way to improve.

In reply to stp:

Slightly off-topic, but has anyone read the follow-up book from 'The Self Coached Climber' guys about redpointing?
The reviews seem a bit underwhelming.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Redpoint-Self-Coached-Climbers-Sight-Climbing/dp/0...

In reply to Fraser:


I haven't seen that but I did receive a copy of the original Self Coached climber - got a lot of mentions so thought I'd nab a copy. Looks good so far.

In reply to JLS:


That's sound advice, cheers. Did a session of 4x4 routes today, going to take two days rest then have a go at some projects on Friday. Think I really needed 2 days off after the 4x4 boulders on Sunday but I adjusted route level up or down depending on availability and level of pump.

Ended up doing
4+ up and down, 5+ 6a+ (Warm up)
6b 5+ 5+ 5+
6b 6a+ 5+ 5
5 6b+ 6a+ 6a+
6b+ 6a 5+ 4+ So 20 routes all in, half on gently overhanging ground. On average climb time and rest time were both around 15 minutes or so.

Lead most until middle of 4th set, then toproped last 6. Feel knackered now but surprisingly strong on a few of the routes but a fair way to go I think to do this with just 6a/6b. I'll do similar routes next time but start swapping up a few half grades here and there.

Friday I'll aim for single attempts with longer rests and try a few new things and probably hang about on a few bolts. Then I guess I'll add a boulder wall session but maybe work on some projects and volume rather than bash out 4x4s on there until next month.

In reply to Bob Conley:

I think when trying harder projects you don't want to place too much emphasis on getting to the top. The goal is training after all. If you really try hard to complete routes indoors then you usually need to rest longer, end up doing less volume, which is counterproductive. Instead don't worry if you're not fresh. Get on the routes and try to first make sure you can do all the moves and clips. Then try to do them with maybe two hangs, then one. Try to go up each project maybe 3 or 4 times in a session - and have multiple projects on the go at the same time. As you get fitter, get them more wired, and occasionally try them when you're a bit fresher you'll naturally complete some of them anyway. But keep in mind the goal is training, trying to stay focused while climbing hard moves, above gear, whilst pumped.

I'm skeptical of the idea of 4x4 route climbing. 4x4 was originally a bouldering protocol. With routes I think you need to drop the difficulty too much. I suppose you do get the volume of routes in but I think 16 x 1 of harder routes is likely to be better. In fact even 10 x 1.

In reply to stp:

The challenge with routes in a 4x4 setting will be the inconsistency of difficulty, it's much easier to modify a series of boulder problems for a 4x4 protocol to make it harder. Each time you nail the set swap out the best handhold for your next session.

Keep the routes going, I found the most challenging aspect of sport climbing was to try hard on an end of a rope.

With great strength comes the feeling that even the crappest of holds on a 7a sport climb will feel like jugs.

In reply to stp:


What you're describing is more the way I intuitively think about it. There's something about stepping down difficulty in 4x4 routes which seems counterintuitive but I've been reading a lot of stuff which advise it as a worthwhile protocol. Neil Gresham, Robbie Phillips both recommend it and not just from the perspective of an elite climber. I can sort of see it from the point of view of building up your tank capacity.

In the 80s we used to do a stack of traversing on the Henry Price wall at Leeds uni and it was like a turboboost - only vertical mind you but some small fingers holds and it got the forearms screaming. We'd milk a rest at the doors and do several complete lengths. At the bouldering wall the closest is an overhanging traverse which to be honest is to hard to for me right now to spend more than 5 mins continuously - can maybe do 2-3 traverses max, about 90 moves on the 6b. The 4x4 routes today got the forearms pumped in a totally different way to the powered down feeling of the boulder 4x4s. And then there's all this ARC stuff in the book I just got, what's that all about? Climbing for 45 minutes with hardly a pump, I'd have to stick to slabs lol.

I'm sure whichever of these protocols is done will lead to improvement over time, cheers for the suggestions

In reply to alx:


Will do, thanks for the ideas

In reply to stp:

>"I'm skeptical of the idea of 4x4 route climbing"

I'm a big fan. It makes a big difference to my climbing when I've finish a block, my ablility to recover on less than great holds rockets.
I'm not a strong powerful climber so shaking out every other move on enduro routes is my only way of getting to climbing harder(ish) grades.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Good stuff. Sounds like you are on the right track. I'd have thought your target would be to get up to doing all 6b's. 6b+ laps is probably too ambitious for 7a redpointing level.
To give you an idea I tend to start on 6b's and work up to all 6c's over 6 sessions which sees me in good shape for 7c siege projects.

In reply to Bob Conley:


The only time I did ARC training (which was a few years ago now) I found a noticeable improvement after the end of the block. My endurance was generally pretty good, but the ARC training improved it a LOT. It was perhaps easier for us in that we were training on the long routes at Ratho so could go up something like 6a/b and down-climb 5's. But I was surprised how quickly the 40-45 minutes went by. However you really need a patient and equally training-focused partner to make the most of these sessions. Sounds like you're heading along the right path so good luck with the training.

My one bit of advice would be: once you choose your protocol, stick with it. It's no good jumping from one to the other or doing things halfheartedly.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Henry Price and Red Lane wall were great (horizontal) endurance training venues

In reply to Fraser:


Thanks for that.
Am I right in thinking that ARC is at the lower end of the aerobic continuum and that 4x4 routes are up the upper end? I've read about all this maintaining a level 2/3 pump (out of 5) whilst doing ARC, but presumably the 4x4s are taking you more into 4/5 area, and hence more anaerobic?

I've also seen it suggested to use it as active recovery but I find it very difficult to find anything to climb for 45 minutes where I'm only getting a minimal pump, and just end up totally knackered. Probably got closest on the bouldering wall just rainbowing around - tried it for 20 mins once but wasnt sure how effective it would be long term. There seem to be some of the better climbers saying not to bother too much at very low intensity, and keep the workouts at the higher aerobic end. But then I wonder if that's because they've spent so long at it in the past, their capillary network is already very dense or easily topped up, whereas someone coming back into it like me or beginning from scratch has a lot of basic groundwork to make up? My forearms certainly seem a lot smaller than they used to lol.

I guess if I can get the intensity right it's something I could try on a 4th session and just keep the session short if I can avoid the temptations to keep pushing it. I've tried doing a bit at the end of other wall sessions but often it's the skin on my fingers which is the limiting factor here.

In reply to stp:

Disagree because on a grade that you could toprope, perhaps near your limit, when trying to lead it the act of hanging around to clip the gear on it, the extra hanging on, perhaps finding a resty bit to recover too, is the new limiting factor, rather than any mental / head factorcaused by trying leading / redpointing it.... Isn't it just that it's now perhaps become beyond your physical (endurance) limit, going from top rope to lead?

In reply to Rock to Fakey:


If the difference between approach on toprope and lead involves finding extra rests and so on that's just inconsistent tactics - it's either a useful rest or it isn't.

As for clipping, maybe at best a grade difference but 3 is totally excessive.

Are you clipping late or are you hanging about ages hauling slack above your head? (If so, see "head issues")

If you can toprope 7a and lead 6b+ then you need to focus on a combination of tactics and headgames, not physical training.

What does ARC stand for, and is the Self Coached Climber (SCC) the book you read about this in?

In reply to AJM:

Sorry thought you meant if you can TR a grade you can lead it... sometimes that's true, yeah should be able to lead half and definitely a full grade below your top rope limit.

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

Aerobic recovery and capillarisation or something. It's just really long really easy stints on the wall.

I've never quite seen the point of quite so long/low versus going up the intensity spectrum a bit and doing say the 20 minute sessions the Lattice guys recommend.

I think SCC popularised it although I think it's also in Rock Climbers Training Manual and so on too.

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

I mean, as a general rule I'd say you should on a lot of ground - things like very pure resistance/PE climbing are maybe the exception where the clips will really drain you.

In reply to Bob Conley:

I think there's also a personal element in all these protocols too. I've never done 4x4 routes, and rarely even do 2 in row but I think endurance comes more naturally to me - possibly. Strength and power certainly don't . So maybe for some climbers very powerful climbers who find endurance hard to get it's the appropriate thing? Who knows? Pretty much all evidence is going to be anecdotal anyway. I think the ideas originate in other sports and then are hypothetically applied to climbing.

The other thing is I've never seen top climbers doing stuff like arc training. I'm pretty sure Alex Megos doesn't do that kind of training - all of his stuff seems focused around finger strength and power yet his endurance is incredible (3rd go ascent of Biographie springs to mind). Same with Adam Ondra. In fact in an interview he was asked about how he balanced strength and endurance and he said when he feels strong his endurance is good too. In videos he seems to do strength/power or strength endurance stuff only and in lead climbing he's unmatched in the world.

So I'm skeptical but maybe it's good for part of your training.

One final thought is that if the indoor grades at your wall are typical then if you can climb 7a indoors you'll almost certainly be able to climb a grade harder in Kalymnos. Mentally it's worth subtracting a grade from routes there for a more accurate idea of the difficulty.

In reply to AJM:
Would be good to have a link to that lattice 20min training thing, i read that too, see if i can find it...

http://m.epictv.com/media/series-home/lattice-trainings-epic-series/500525?...

Someone srarted another thread for links about aerobic/anaerobic training a few days ago... How handy!

In reply to stp:

Be careful of bias though - videos of arc are going to be really dull!

I'd be amazed if there isn't a lot of fitness training of some form going on in the background.

In reply to JLS:

I didn't mean I was skeptical of it not doing anything. Most training should be beneficial in some way or other - certainly compared to doing nothing. It's more that I'm not sure it's necessary. My endurance goes up pretty quickly too, usually in a couple of weeks, so long as I do enough climbing and get am getting pumped on the routes I try. Like you I find I can shake out in places I couldn't before. But apart from not doing a form of climbing that I'd find tedious and boring I'll hopefully have all the benefits of climbing harder too, like power endurance, technique, mental stuff etc.

In reply to stp:

Go on, give it a go. It's only six sessions. What's the worst that can happen?

Well pleased as I managed a 7a red point the other day at Harrogate wall, and flashed a 6c+ onsight straight before. I know they're probably easy for the grade but that'll do me for a start.

About two weeks ago my body was suffering after several weeks of 4 days a week - shoulder joints were aching, felt lethargic etc. I'd managed 3 6cs that week, one onsight and two on the second or third attempt so was quite pleased. I'd shifted the emphasis towards performance sessions indoors - trying routes at my limit - for a bit of variety and fun. I realised out of 32 days I'd climbed indoors for 16 and it seemed like hard work. So the following week I had a couple of easy sessions, had two days off in a row, then three days off. Then managed the 7a at the end of a session almost as an afterthought - I'd had a miserable go at it on a top rope 3 weeks before and didn't complete it, but it went first time on the lead.

So, 7/8 weeks now until Kalymnos, I'm enjoying just trying routes on the wall but I also feel like a few weeks of focused effort have helped tremendously in terms of stamina and confidence. Thinking of starting again with a week or two focussed stamina (4x4 routes), followed by a couple of weeks of intense bouldering with 4x4 on boulders for power stuff. Big steep overhanging stuff is definitely my weak point though, all my 6c/7a so far been on vertical stuff, still fail on some of the really overhanging 6b stuff. So not sure whether to just do loads of laps on that sort of stuff.

Whatever, definitely moved on a notch from when I first posted so thanks for all the tips!

In reply to Bob Conley:

Well done!

(I'm 20 odd years younger than, climb 2/3 times a week. Try quite hard. Don't climb as hard as you)

In reply to Bob Conley:

Cool. So, in the end, roughly what training did you do?

In reply to Bob Conley:


Nice one. Beware of overtraining, a really intense session can take up to 72 hours to recover ( though 24-48 is typical). If you train during your recovery cycle your performance will only go downhill.

Basically, if you time your sessions correctly so that you hit the 'supercompensation' peak, every training session should feel better than the last - that's the whole point. If you find your performance degrading, or you couldn't climb as much/as hard as you could the previous session, dial it down a bit.

In reply to JLS:

Cheers,
I started off the month thinking I'd be doing 4x4s for much of it but due to a few posts from you guys, I started introducing some more sessions just trying to push myself and taking a few falls. I got into the route pyramids from the Self Coached Climber as a way of always introcing fresh challenges as well as consolidating on other grades. For myself I set up a base of 8x6b+, 4x6c, 2x6c+ and one 7a. At the start of the month I had completed 5 or 6 of the 6b+. I only included routes lead clean, either onsight or redpoint. The 6b+ base represented the level at which I was cleanly onsighting about 50%. At the end of the month I now need to complete one more 6b+, one more 6c and one more 6c+ so I shall be establishing a new pyramid. So the month essentially morphed into a lot more redpointing efforts mixed with route volume and bouldering.

Here's a quick rundown - I know, I'm sad, I write it all down but it keeps me out of mischief lol.

Week 1 Feb
1. Wall, volume under limit
2. Boulder volume
3. Boulder focus 4x4

Week 2 Feb
1. Wall, 4x4 routes
2. Easy boulder, 30 mins ARc and low volume;
3. Wall, projecting and new routes to pyramid.
4. Wall, redpointing new routes for pyramid and lower grade volume.

Week 3 Feb
1. Wall, projecting and route pyramids
2. Boulder volume - short limit session then complete V2 circuit
3. Wall, fun and volume, no new routes for pyramid, failed on a few, quite tired
4. Boulder volume, completed new v2-3 circuit with two exceptions

Week 4 Feb
Felt knackered and in need of rest
1. Wall easy volume, no routes on pyramid
2. Wall easy volume, no routes on pyramid

Week 5 March
1. Wall, onsight flash first 6c+ then first 7a redpoint, plus two more routes for pyramid
2. Wall, new routes set, nearly completed pyramid but rested on new 6c and 6b+. Think they'll go next time, but more confidence in trying new routes when tired towards end of session.

Looks like it was only two weeks of 4 days but I was really starting to feel it. The trouble here is I'm enjoying trying the redpoints but I'm wondering whether I should step back a bit now and do another week or two of 4x4s. Found the pyramid idea really helped give me focus.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Cheers,
Yes definitely planning more rest in future. Not sure how people keep going with 4 or more days a week without a good break.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Well, a bit of this and that has done the business for you. I'm not wholly convinced that you really spent enough time at any one activity to really maximise your potential. I think your gains have come from the general increase in climbing volume and more attention to redpointing skills. Still, sounds like you're psyched and enjoying your climbing which is what it's all about. There is still plenty of time to get even fitter before your trip. For the next four weeks I'd still be advocating...
Weekly,
1) 4x4 routes session (for endurance/PE)
2) 4x4 Boulder session (for PE)
3) fingerboard session (for finger strength recruitment)
4) Hard redpoint projecting (for PE, learning how to rest/shake-out on routes)

In reply to JLS:
Yes, I totally agree with you there but I feel like there's been a lot of variety with the different sessions which has helped keep me motivated. Certainly at my level I'm thinking that a good 4 sessions a week of mixed bouldering/routes is giving good improvements anyway.

But yes, what you've suggested there is pretty much along the lines I was thinking, so I'm going to focus a little more on the 4x4s, both routes and bouldering. Only had a brief go with fingerboarding so may try and introduce some at a gentle level, either as an addition to a shortened boulder session or as the 4th session in the week.

Thanks for the feedback and ideas.

In reply to Bob Conley:

Over the winter I had much the same approach, just doing a bit of this and that to keep it interesting. It's got me it pretty good shape but more focused regimented training starts shortly. Even though I feel quite good, I can feel my endurance and PE could be better still.