UKC

Mine is Hard Severe.

I was reminded of it last weekend where we did routes ranging from VD to HVS and the two I struggled to do most were both HS. The classic Creagh Dhu Wall I made a right meal of seconding P1 and a total faff of leading the crux of P2. Then the next day I skimped my way up Murren at Pot Hole quarry and ended up with a real forearm pump (the route is barely 10m long !). I've got no doubt that these routes are correctly graded at HS but still both a real fight. And its not just these two - it seems to happen more frequently to me on HS than any other grade.

I assume the issue is one of not approaching the climbs (which I know are comfortably within my ability) with enough respect, but nevertheless the moves are tricky enough that they shouldn't be taken for granted.

Does anyone else have their 'awkward grade' ?

In reply to GrahamD:

Yep!
benchmark grades 6a, 7a, 8a etc always seem to me to require a quantum leap in ability from the + grade below it.

I have been stuck beneath my awkward grade for ages despite what is massive leaps in strength and performance.

In reply to alx:

That's purely about one's own mental barriers with a particular grading system though isn't it. 7a is still "only" 5.11d, so the big jump is to 7a+/5.12a if that's the system you grew up with. Similarly 6c+ is already UIAA 8-, so moving on from there to 8/7a surely can't be that big a deal can it? Etc.

In reply to GrahamD:

Are you sure it's not just the result of getting back onto real rock after a winter lay off?

In reply to alx:

This isn't about breaking through grades though ( UK technical 5c for that ). It's struggling at one particular grade a couple of grades below normal lead grade

In reply to GrahamD:

Typically, for me it was HVS 5b. A horrible grade, could mean a wide range of things - whereas HVS 5a generally was just fine, what you expected. E1 in a strange way generally felt a bit friendlier, tended to be 'what it said on the tin'. E2 also, seemed generally more or less what you expected. Looking back, to generalise hugely: Mod - V Diff, always very friendly; Severe, a bit odd, could be nasty; VS usually just fine, often very nice and friendly - a lovely grade, at bottom end of 'real' climbing; HVS, as above: E1 and above, again more consistent, sometimes nasty, often v good/deeply satisfying.

In reply to GrahamD:
Over here (Germany/Austria) in theory the UIAA system is linear like French grades, with no distinction between sustained/bouldery/whatever. In practice I get the feeling "7-" is used as a kind of E1 5c grade - they seem to disproportionately often have a one move crux, but with the one move being absolutely desperate.

In reply to AlanLittle:
Maybe. However, some classic routes at benchmark grades seem to be traditionally undergraded and fixed at that grade because they are classics so you can end up struggling up some HVS and VS routes when you are able to lead some E1, 2 and 3 routes quite comfortably .

In reply to GrahamD:
Everyone does... It's HVS!

In reply to GrahamD:

+1 for HS - its actually harder than E10, but not many people will tell you that...

In reply to AlanLittle:


No it isn't. For example it's a well known thing that lots of 7c+'s are harder than 8a's as the FA didn't think they could climb that hard or 8a didn't exist so just because the hardest grade

In reply to GrahamD:

I think mine without a doubt is the HVS trad grade. Whenever I have really struggled on a route it has always seemed to have been HVS regardless as tech grade. Fallen off plenty of HVS routes but never an E1. Not sure why exactly but I guess it is quite a broad grade with many styles of climbing and a significant range of difficulty perhaps..?

J

In reply to GrahamD:

It's HVS for me too.

In reply to GrahamD:

E4 -5c always put the fear into me. you know it should be easy enough,but if its hard you know its serious

In reply to hpil:


Thing is I don't think they actually are - just something about the grade makes me climb them badly

In reply to Phil Anderson:


Except I think HVS genuinely does span a range of gnarliness and Tower Crack or the Mincer are never going to feel friendly.

In reply to GrahamD:

It's the technical grade 5c for me. 99%of 5bs are fairly steady but the jump to 5c is insanely hard. Feels like jumping 3 or 4 grades to me.

In reply to GrahamD:

HVD - a grade to avoid (fortunately many of the sandbags have now been upgraded, but...).

In reply to GrahamD:

My theory has always been tha grade with H or + in them are trouble. Looks like I'm not alone and my biggest bogey, yep HVS.

In reply to Morty:


Traditional grading generates the best sandbags. I never did get up that diff 5a at Stanage.

I might give it another go now that it has been upgraded - I can lead HS

In reply to GrahamD:

VS - for example, I had a nice day down at Wintours Leap - E2 and E3 and nearly fell off a VS (again) - frequently find them awkward and off balance and I am far more likely to have a moment than on something supposedly much harder. It's becoming a bit of a thing now and it's starting to piss me off.

In reply to GrahamD:

E3, can never hang around long enough to figure the moves and place gear...

In reply to Mark Kemball:


I hear Flying Buttress at Stanage is quite hard for the grade....

In reply to GrahamD:

I often struggle more than I should on HS's. More due to me not switching on as much as I should expecting them to be straightforward. Whilst I almost always switch on for VS and above.

HVS's are just always tough cookies

In reply to ChrisBrooke:

Mine is 5.9 (and if I was better, probably would be 5.10d or as a French sport climber 6a).

FB is still VD in the definitive btw

In reply to freemanTom:

I think the 'switching on' is key.

There are grades which, for whatever reason, have more than their fair share of genuinely tough cookies (sounds like HVS is one) and there are grades (looks like about 3 below best lead grade) where complacency is found out

In reply to GrahamD:

E4 I,ve done plenty of harder E3,s and easier E5,s than some E4,s

In reply to GrahamD:

For me it's been HVS, but that was before I got dragged up the File at VS!

In reply to GrahamD:

For me it's routes with a high technical grade: VS 5a and HVS 5b's are always hard , while E1 5c usually involves jumping for holds or falling off.

VS 4b, HVS 4c and E1 5a's are usually very straightforward.

Probably says more about the climbing styles associated with these grades rather than the grades themselves...

In reply to AlanLittle:

I agree with you on that! Wish it made climbing the buggers easier...

I find different areas, rock types and styles tend to influence perception of how hard something feels to quite a large degree, the root being not getting out on real rock enough

In reply to AlanLittle:

Very true. I know quite a few Frankenjura 7- that are 5ish jugfests with a single bulge that has only one tiny finger pocket!

CB

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>VS usually just fine, often very nice and friendly - a lovely grade, at bottom end of 'real' climbing;

And there was me, on Ardvereikie Wall, Main Wall Cyrn Las, etc etc, under the delusion that I was doing proper climbing. ;0)

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Well, Main Wall, I agree. But it's almost in a class of its own at its standard.

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes, 5.9 in the US is much like HVS in the UK. I think my problem with climbs of these grades was not getting sufficiently psyched up for them - and then they bite back! Also, agree with 5.10d, which doesn't seem to know quite what it is. In Joshua Tree there is even a grade of 5.10+ in addition to 5.10a, b c and d. Those really have an identity crisis!

In reply to John Stainforth:

I agree but think the 5.9 problem is a lot worse as sandbag grades change much less regularly in the US.

JT 5.10+ is infamous but way too hard for me

In reply to ashtond6:

Yeah, Isn't Hubble (controversial) an example of that?

In reply to GrahamD:

Mine is "anything over HS"

In reply to AlanLittle:

Very true.

People here in the US aspire to break into the magic grade of 13a , which is the "nowhere in particular grade" of 7c+ in Europe, where that magic grade is 8a.

For me the awkward grade is 11d - which is in line with the "real" 11 grade scale:

11a ->11b -> 10d trad -> 11c -> 5.9 offwidth -> 12a -> 11d

In reply to GrahamD:

>Does anyone else have their 'awkward grade' ?

I wonder if it's a grade that you think is going to be "easy" but actually takes some level of attention and so approaching it with a easy mindset gets you into trouble?

Personally I find it's 5+ sports routes that often get me, it's easy to pick one as a warm up and find it much harder than you expected. Usually 6a sports feels easier and more steady, perhaps because it's not my first route of the day...

In reply to alx:


"8a etc"

!

In reply to GrahamD:

Every boulder grade with a plus on it... Especially so in Font-grades.

F6c nice problem and not too bad assis.

F6c+ about the same as above, 'cept for that nearly impossible assis. If you're tall, you simply can't fit between the holds and short person can't reach the next hold. For medium sized peeps, the assis is akin to doable (barely) but most likely you'll end up blowin' a vein or two in you forehead (or worse, in ye brain). The nearby F7a assis is actually a lot easier.

In reply to GrahamD:

For me it would be HVS and f5+, which I think is about the same? I'm a bit out of it at the moment but even when climbing well and pushing around E1,2 and 3 OR F6b+/6c I always found them harder than it felt like they should be.

In reply to springfall2008:


I think this is precisely it. With me at least

In reply to JJL:

Yes indeed!

Off to pray at the temple of waddage and do yoga in a forest and maybe throw some red dice around in a dark room.