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The Brave New World of British Climbing Magazines. Mick Ward reminisces about the British magazines that transformed climbing media as we venture ever further into the digital age, in memory of the late Ken Wilson.'In the late 1960s I was a kid from Nowheresville who'd fallen desperately in love with mountains. Quite by accident I discovered climbing magazines, which were unlike anything there had ever been or - in one case – ever would be again.'
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In reply to UKC Articles:
A pleasant lunchtime stroll down memory lane, although I'm too young (not a phrase I write often) to remember Rocksport. Surprised that the short lived Mountain Review doesn't feature and as I read through I found myself wondering how the British magazine scene compared to elsewhere - Ascent was clearly very influential in the US, but what about elsewhere in Europe ? were there similar developments in Germany, Italy ?
And a small point, but at least on my PC (Firefox/Windows 7 pro) I had to scroll down on several pages to see all the text
A pleasant lunchtime stroll down memory lane, although I'm too young (not a phrase I write often) to remember Rocksport. Surprised that the short lived Mountain Review doesn't feature and as I read through I found myself wondering how the British magazine scene compared to elsewhere - Ascent was clearly very influential in the US, but what about elsewhere in Europe ? were there similar developments in Germany, Italy ?
And a small point, but at least on my PC (Firefox/Windows 7 pro) I had to scroll down on several pages to see all the text
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Superbly written as ever Mick. All very much before my time but exceptionally interesting none the less.
I may now have to attempt to recreate the Edelrid girl as the next photography project...
Thanks for taking the time to write it.
Edit - What a superb front cover on the October / November 1969 Rocksport.
Superbly written as ever Mick. All very much before my time but exceptionally interesting none the less.
I may now have to attempt to recreate the Edelrid girl as the next photography project...
Thanks for taking the time to write it.
Edit - What a superb front cover on the October / November 1969 Rocksport.
Post edited at 13:37
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Great stuff Mick and a wonderful halcyon trip down memory lane!
Cheers
Dave
Great stuff Mick and a wonderful halcyon trip down memory lane!
Cheers
Dave
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Echoing all of the above, I really enjoyed this piece and was very excited when Natalie first told me about it - great to see it up on the site.
Echoing all of the above, I really enjoyed this piece and was very excited when Natalie first told me about it - great to see it up on the site.
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Another great article Mick, very well written and evocative of the old days when the climbing magazines were very good indeed.
Cheers
Chris
Another great article Mick, very well written and evocative of the old days when the climbing magazines were very good indeed.
Cheers
Chris
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Thanks for a great trip down memory lane.
It's one of the reasons I collect/don't throw away old mags. So if anyone has any going spare, PM me
Cheers
Rick
Thanks for a great trip down memory lane.
It's one of the reasons I collect/don't throw away old mags. So if anyone has any going spare, PM me
Cheers
Rick
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Enjoyed that a lot, brought back a few memories - it was great seeing the historical perspective,
Chris
Enjoyed that a lot, brought back a few memories - it was great seeing the historical perspective,
Chris
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Enough of the clichés about ‘a pleasant lunchtime stroll down memory lane’, this is a far, far better piece of writing than that. I was too young for Rocksport, but I’ll never forget buying my first copy of Crags, I was 12. It broke the news of John Allen’s retirement. He was 18. I was devastated.
I’d never seen the Edelrid Girl before. Wonderful. She goes along way towards explaining the Black Whip Girl, in Crags. Like all great climbing writing, this is cleaver, funny, historically insightful and profound. I want to own it as hardcopy… I wish it were in a magazine.
Enough of the clichés about ‘a pleasant lunchtime stroll down memory lane’, this is a far, far better piece of writing than that. I was too young for Rocksport, but I’ll never forget buying my first copy of Crags, I was 12. It broke the news of John Allen’s retirement. He was 18. I was devastated.
I’d never seen the Edelrid Girl before. Wonderful. She goes along way towards explaining the Black Whip Girl, in Crags. Like all great climbing writing, this is cleaver, funny, historically insightful and profound. I want to own it as hardcopy… I wish it were in a magazine.
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In reply to UKC Articles:
What a pleasure to read such a great article which could have only been written by someone who had "lived" through the period. I was an avid collector of climbing mags from the mid 60's on and every time we move house I am lambasted by my wife for insisting that my boxes of mags travel with us in the car unless they get lost. Highlight of my mag collecting was buying the no 1 issue of Crags from Geoff at Stoney, the first week-end it was published. Geoff was travelling the popular crags drumming up business. I suspect that he wouldn't sell many at Stoney now! I will have to get them out again as I have nearly all of those shown in the article.
What a pleasure to read such a great article which could have only been written by someone who had "lived" through the period. I was an avid collector of climbing mags from the mid 60's on and every time we move house I am lambasted by my wife for insisting that my boxes of mags travel with us in the car unless they get lost. Highlight of my mag collecting was buying the no 1 issue of Crags from Geoff at Stoney, the first week-end it was published. Geoff was travelling the popular crags drumming up business. I suspect that he wouldn't sell many at Stoney now! I will have to get them out again as I have nearly all of those shown in the article.
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In reply to Greg Lucas:
Retired at 18? He is still at it!
Chris
> I was too young for Rocksport, but I’ll never forget buying my first copy of Crags, I was 12. It broke the news of John Allen’s retirement. He was 18. I was devastated.
Retired at 18? He is still at it!
Chris
In reply to UKC Articles:
Brilliant Mick. Thanks. All those classic magazine covers will live forever!
Brilliant Mick. Thanks. All those classic magazine covers will live forever!
Post edited at 23:23
In reply to UKC Articles:
Nice work, thanks Mick.
But despite what you say later on, I think this, and my own experience, definitely proves Allan Austin wrong. The mags reached around the world (even to me here in Australia) whereas the club journals did not. I can't think of a single club journal article anywhere I remember, but can go fish out a single issue from my collection of mags that I remember because of a single article that stuck with me for twenty years.
Nice work, thanks Mick.
But despite what you say later on, I think this, and my own experience, definitely proves Allan Austin wrong. The mags reached around the world (even to me here in Australia) whereas the club journals did not. I can't think of a single club journal article anywhere I remember, but can go fish out a single issue from my collection of mags that I remember because of a single article that stuck with me for twenty years.
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In reply to UKC Articles:
Superb article. Those rocksport and mountain covers brought back some memories !
Thanks.
Superb article. Those rocksport and mountain covers brought back some memories !
Thanks.
In reply to UKC Articles:
Super article Mick, which bought back lots of memories of what used to be an incredibly vibrant scene - but I think for posterity it should go in a club journal as well
Super article Mick, which bought back lots of memories of what used to be an incredibly vibrant scene - but I think for posterity it should go in a club journal as well
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
I agree that it is worthy of being republished in a magazine, and considering the topic, that would seem appropriate.
However, considering that every article ever published on UKC is still accessible to everyone with an internet connection 20 years after we set up the site, and magazines and journals of the same age are a rarity that need some effort to track down if you didn't get them first time round (and even if you did), then I would say 'posterity' is better served by the web in this case.
Alan
> Super article Mick, which bought back lots of memories of what used to be an incredibly vibrant scene - but I think for posterity it should go in a club journal as well
I agree that it is worthy of being republished in a magazine, and considering the topic, that would seem appropriate.
However, considering that every article ever published on UKC is still accessible to everyone with an internet connection 20 years after we set up the site, and magazines and journals of the same age are a rarity that need some effort to track down if you didn't get them first time round (and even if you did), then I would say 'posterity' is better served by the web in this case.
Alan
Post edited at 09:32
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I wonder whether that is really true though, except in theory. Yes, all electronic articles will still be stored somewhere (unless there is some sort of massive cock-up or catastrophic power cut) but I think what this article reminds us is just how powerful all that stuff in print was; not just the covers, but all those mountain info pages were incredibly familiar too. In 40 years time are we really going to be thinking "oh yes, there was that great article on UKC in about February 2017" and go and find it in the same way that people might now rummage in their attic or start a thread here asking if anyone has a copy of that amazing article about, say, Cerro Torre that they remember from Mountain with the incredible cover shot in about 1976 or whenever?
I sent the only article I've had on UKC here rather than a magazine because I wanted the information in it conveniently and instantly available to a sizeable number of people - that, I think, is the power of the internet. If I had had posterity more in mind, I would probably have sent it to a magazine. I only ever had one article in Mountain, but people still regularly bring it up in conversation or ask for a copy 25 years later.
> I agree that it is worthy of being republished in a magazine, and considering the topic, that would seem appropriate.However, considering that every article ever published on UKC is still accessible to everyone with an internet connection 20 years after we set up the site, and magazines and journals of the same age are a rarity that need some effort to track down if you didn't get them first time round (and even if you did), then I would say 'posterity' is better served by the web in this case.
I wonder whether that is really true though, except in theory. Yes, all electronic articles will still be stored somewhere (unless there is some sort of massive cock-up or catastrophic power cut) but I think what this article reminds us is just how powerful all that stuff in print was; not just the covers, but all those mountain info pages were incredibly familiar too. In 40 years time are we really going to be thinking "oh yes, there was that great article on UKC in about February 2017" and go and find it in the same way that people might now rummage in their attic or start a thread here asking if anyone has a copy of that amazing article about, say, Cerro Torre that they remember from Mountain with the incredible cover shot in about 1976 or whenever?
I sent the only article I've had on UKC here rather than a magazine because I wanted the information in it conveniently and instantly available to a sizeable number of people - that, I think, is the power of the internet. If I had had posterity more in mind, I would probably have sent it to a magazine. I only ever had one article in Mountain, but people still regularly bring it up in conversation or ask for a copy 25 years later.
Post edited at 10:06
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In reply to UKC Articles:
A great wander down memory lane. My first magazine was Crags 4, partly because I was in The Mountain Shop in Birmingham and Ian Parsons and Mike Grain were going on about how they were on the cover (Ian tippexed out and the very top of Mike's helmet just visible). I have the full set somewhere - I bought 1-3 as back issues. The characters inside were heroes to me and I think I'd still be starstruck if I met Big Ron, even though I've run into a fair few of the supporting cast over the years.
One cover really did change my life. At a time when I was trying to decide what to do after my PhD I bought Mountain 137. Some South Africans in the lab were trying to persuade me to help them get a good lab going when they returned to Cape Town, rather than following the well-trodden path to Cambridge, UCSF or Johns Hopkins. I was undecided. The political situation was still uncertain, plenty of people thought it would be unacceptably dangerous and I didn't really know much about Cape Town.
Then I saw this:
https://lifeinthevertical.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/crags-0155.jpg
I thought that if that was what weekend cragging looked like then it was worth a shot even if nothing else worked out. We could have an adventure rather than making the safe career decision and maybe things could change post-apartheid - I'd never seen a black climber on anything like that in Britain at the time.
Anyway, we went, had the time of our lives, met Ed February (at a crag) within days of arriving in Cape Town and have been good friends ever since. The power of a good photograph...
A great wander down memory lane. My first magazine was Crags 4, partly because I was in The Mountain Shop in Birmingham and Ian Parsons and Mike Grain were going on about how they were on the cover (Ian tippexed out and the very top of Mike's helmet just visible). I have the full set somewhere - I bought 1-3 as back issues. The characters inside were heroes to me and I think I'd still be starstruck if I met Big Ron, even though I've run into a fair few of the supporting cast over the years.
One cover really did change my life. At a time when I was trying to decide what to do after my PhD I bought Mountain 137. Some South Africans in the lab were trying to persuade me to help them get a good lab going when they returned to Cape Town, rather than following the well-trodden path to Cambridge, UCSF or Johns Hopkins. I was undecided. The political situation was still uncertain, plenty of people thought it would be unacceptably dangerous and I didn't really know much about Cape Town.
Then I saw this:
https://lifeinthevertical.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/crags-0155.jpg
I thought that if that was what weekend cragging looked like then it was worth a shot even if nothing else worked out. We could have an adventure rather than making the safe career decision and maybe things could change post-apartheid - I'd never seen a black climber on anything like that in Britain at the time.
Anyway, we went, had the time of our lives, met Ed February (at a crag) within days of arriving in Cape Town and have been good friends ever since. The power of a good photograph...
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In reply to Robert Durran:
Is that not nostalgia though?
Posterity means 'for future generations'. In terms of numbers and accessibility, surely it wins over old print media every time?
Also, the articles you are quoting are more than 20 years old. Who knows what format the articles people will be getting nostalgic over in 20 years time will be in - maybe Mick's brilliant article?
It is a pedantic point though, and probably not worth drawing out much further, I just react to statements which suggest that the only real legacy for information is print.
Alan
> I sent the only article I've had on UKC here rather than a magazine because I wanted the information in it conveniently and instantly available to a sizeable number of people - that, I think, is the power of the internet. If I had had posterity more in mind, I would probably have sent it to a magazine. I only ever had one article in Mountain, but people still regularly bring it up in conversation or ask for a copy 25 years later.
Is that not nostalgia though?
Posterity means 'for future generations'. In terms of numbers and accessibility, surely it wins over old print media every time?
Also, the articles you are quoting are more than 20 years old. Who knows what format the articles people will be getting nostalgic over in 20 years time will be in - maybe Mick's brilliant article?
It is a pedantic point though, and probably not worth drawing out much further, I just react to statements which suggest that the only real legacy for information is print.
Alan
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
True, but I still think of electronic stuff as immediate and in some ways "throwaway", whereas print just seems more permanent, even if this is not literally true. But maybe I am just a dinosaur in a digital age - I still print things out if I want to keep or remember them. And I only persevered with the, for me, annoying "digital feature" format of Mick's article because it was so good (unlike most other articles in this format!).
> Is that not nostalgia though? Posterity means 'for future generations'. In terms of numbers and accessibility, surely it wins over old print media every time?Also, the articles you are quoting are more than 20 years old. Who knows what format the articles people will be getting nostalgic over in 20 years time will be in - maybe Mick's brilliant article?
True, but I still think of electronic stuff as immediate and in some ways "throwaway", whereas print just seems more permanent, even if this is not literally true. But maybe I am just a dinosaur in a digital age - I still print things out if I want to keep or remember them. And I only persevered with the, for me, annoying "digital feature" format of Mick's article because it was so good (unlike most other articles in this format!).
2
2
In reply to UKC Articles:
My apologies for not coming on here before to thank people and answer queries - but I've been laid low by a lergy with a real killer punch! Will be back properly, as soon as...
Mick
My apologies for not coming on here before to thank people and answer queries - but I've been laid low by a lergy with a real killer punch! Will be back properly, as soon as...
Mick
5
In reply to Robert Durran:
The flip side of web being "throwaway" is that at the same time it can be incredibly easy to find and to access. I love the fact that I can type a few words into a search box and have half-remembered articles appear in seconds. I don't need to become an amateur librarian and I don't need to rummage through a dusty attic - or in my case, a dusty barn - to find them.
Having said that, I still can't bear the idea of throwing those dusty boxes away, even though I literally never look at them.
Great article, Mick. My era began with Mountain and Climber & Rambler and while at Uni I definitely remember calling into the 3 Sheffield city centre climbing shops very frequently in the hope they had a new issue of one of the by-then current mags.
One detail I didn't notice in your article though: What about Rock Action? Or, for that matter, The Thing?
> True, but I still think of electronic stuff as immediate and in some ways "throwaway", whereas print just seems more permanent, even if this is not literally true.
The flip side of web being "throwaway" is that at the same time it can be incredibly easy to find and to access. I love the fact that I can type a few words into a search box and have half-remembered articles appear in seconds. I don't need to become an amateur librarian and I don't need to rummage through a dusty attic - or in my case, a dusty barn - to find them.
Having said that, I still can't bear the idea of throwing those dusty boxes away, even though I literally never look at them.
Great article, Mick. My era began with Mountain and Climber & Rambler and while at Uni I definitely remember calling into the 3 Sheffield city centre climbing shops very frequently in the hope they had a new issue of one of the by-then current mags.
One detail I didn't notice in your article though: What about Rock Action? Or, for that matter, The Thing?
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
So what's the uptake for the Rockfax app like? Does it compare with the demand for the same titles in print?
So what's the uptake for the Rockfax app like? Does it compare with the demand for the same titles in print?
In reply to John2:
No, but then I would never have expected it to be. It is certainly much better than I predicted at this time last year though.
Alan
> So what's the uptake for the Rockfax app like? Does it compare with the demand for the same titles in print?
No, but then I would never have expected it to be. It is certainly much better than I predicted at this time last year though.
Alan
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In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Another excellent article from Mick!
I still don't really like the format but concede that it's slightly better with the addition of a page numbers index. However, can I just make two comments... it would be nice if you added the length of the article somewhere - in this case 32 pages - when the article comes up it just shows pages 1 > 10 (yes I know I only need to click on the double arrow to find this out). Secondly, how do I escape from it? I must be missing something very obvious but the back button just takes me back one page and I can't seem to find a way out of the article...?
Another excellent article from Mick!
I still don't really like the format but concede that it's slightly better with the addition of a page numbers index. However, can I just make two comments... it would be nice if you added the length of the article somewhere - in this case 32 pages - when the article comes up it just shows pages 1 > 10 (yes I know I only need to click on the double arrow to find this out). Secondly, how do I escape from it? I must be missing something very obvious but the back button just takes me back one page and I can't seem to find a way out of the article...?
2
In reply to UKC Articles:
Well done for getting this finished Mick!
As we've talked about before, I started 79/80, and as a died in the wool crag rat, then Mountain was a bit dull. However Birtles and Gill just completely rode the wave of the UK crag rat to perfection.
There's the free poster of Ron on L'horla from Crags framed on one of the walls in my house now. The conjecture at the time was wondering why Ron was bothering to use ropes!
Crags, High and OTE were the staple diet of a wet Sunday morning in Stoney or Grindleford cafes, or Petes Eats on weekends away. Even worked my way through a stash of High Mags in the Bar Nash back in the day waiting for the weather to clear. It didn't.
For anyone who ever sank an ocean of beer with Birtles, Jon Stevenson or Gill Kent and Paul Nunn, these mags are recognisable as real extensions of their personalities and a stunning achievement,
Well done for getting this finished Mick!
As we've talked about before, I started 79/80, and as a died in the wool crag rat, then Mountain was a bit dull. However Birtles and Gill just completely rode the wave of the UK crag rat to perfection.
There's the free poster of Ron on L'horla from Crags framed on one of the walls in my house now. The conjecture at the time was wondering why Ron was bothering to use ropes!
Crags, High and OTE were the staple diet of a wet Sunday morning in Stoney or Grindleford cafes, or Petes Eats on weekends away. Even worked my way through a stash of High Mags in the Bar Nash back in the day waiting for the weather to clear. It didn't.
For anyone who ever sank an ocean of beer with Birtles, Jon Stevenson or Gill Kent and Paul Nunn, these mags are recognisable as real extensions of their personalities and a stunning achievement,
1
In reply to jon:
Click on the UKC in the top left to go back to the site.
Alan
> Secondly, how do I escape from it? I must be missing something very obvious but the back button just takes me back one page and I can't seem to find a way out of the article...?
Click on the UKC in the top left to go back to the site.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
OK thanks, I wouldn't have found it though. Another comment to add to the other one about the length of the article, when the article comes up can I go directly to say page 18. I can see how to go to 1 > 10 and 23 > 32, and by trial and error I can widen this, but it seems clumsy. Have I missed something again?
OK thanks, I wouldn't have found it though. Another comment to add to the other one about the length of the article, when the article comes up can I go directly to say page 18. I can see how to go to 1 > 10 and 23 > 32, and by trial and error I can widen this, but it seems clumsy. Have I missed something again?
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Gosh. Posting from beyond the grave.
Nice background, Paul. I think each magazine was a strong reflection of it's time. Mountain, in particular, came out at just about the time brits were stretching their wings. Yes, there had been a lot of people doing exciting stuff before that, but it seems to me that the late 60s and 70s were when ordinary people rather than the hyper-motivated were starting to explore the planet. And then, there was a bit of a retrenchment after the dole-scum had to find jobs! I was always a bit jealous of those who were smart enough to take advantage of the dole.
> died in the wool crag rat
Gosh. Posting from beyond the grave.
Nice background, Paul. I think each magazine was a strong reflection of it's time. Mountain, in particular, came out at just about the time brits were stretching their wings. Yes, there had been a lot of people doing exciting stuff before that, but it seems to me that the late 60s and 70s were when ordinary people rather than the hyper-motivated were starting to explore the planet. And then, there was a bit of a retrenchment after the dole-scum had to find jobs! I was always a bit jealous of those who were smart enough to take advantage of the dole.
In reply to UKC Articles:
Great to read the history of the mags Mick you did a great job on that,
It was only the other day I was supposed to clear my numerous shelfs but as usual sat reading through them again and nothing got done again, I just have-not the heart to throw them.
keith s
Great to read the history of the mags Mick you did a great job on that,
It was only the other day I was supposed to clear my numerous shelfs but as usual sat reading through them again and nothing got done again, I just have-not the heart to throw them.
keith s
3
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
We started this discussion several years ago now at the AAJ and with LG from Climb/INFO and others, and it crops up at least once a year, usually during publishing decisions. For me it kickstarted with the seminal article 'Is Google Making Us Stupid?'*. There are quite a few articles out there about how digital information is perceived and remembered differently from printed information. The upshot? Not as well.
I have considered if this is a temporary thing, that later generations (say, anyone under 15 now) won't have this conflict between the two and will take in digital information - websites, social media, SMS etc - much as we oldies processed the printed word. I'm not so sure it's that simple though.
Anyway, for the purposes of this thread, it means that digital probably won't just seamlessly step into the role that print played and just be an electronic onscreen version of Mountain #6. As to what it will be, I think is too early to say and I personally think we have one or two hardware and/or software changes to grow through - much as in the way smartphones, particularly the iPhone, changed online habits. As it is, digital versions of articles or whatever can and do get lost in the depths of our hard drives in a way that the collection of magazines does not.
The other factor is one of volume and variety. There is just so much more information, imagery and articles on climbing, in this case, than there was 50 years ago that things just don't stand out like they used to. Not to mention climbing itself being more fragmented than ever before - bouldering, sport climbing, 'trad climbing' (aka 'climbing' ) , big wall aid climbing, ice climbing, hard mixed climbing, commercial high altitude guided climbing and more traditional exploratory mountaineering. Would a high altitude mountaineer ever even see a great new article on bouldering?
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stu...
> Who knows what format the articles people will be getting nostalgic over in 20 years time will be in - maybe Mick's brilliant article?It is a pedantic point though, and probably not worth drawing out much further, I just react to statements which suggest that the only real legacy for information is print. Alan
We started this discussion several years ago now at the AAJ and with LG from Climb/INFO and others, and it crops up at least once a year, usually during publishing decisions. For me it kickstarted with the seminal article 'Is Google Making Us Stupid?'*. There are quite a few articles out there about how digital information is perceived and remembered differently from printed information. The upshot? Not as well.
I have considered if this is a temporary thing, that later generations (say, anyone under 15 now) won't have this conflict between the two and will take in digital information - websites, social media, SMS etc - much as we oldies processed the printed word. I'm not so sure it's that simple though.
Anyway, for the purposes of this thread, it means that digital probably won't just seamlessly step into the role that print played and just be an electronic onscreen version of Mountain #6. As to what it will be, I think is too early to say and I personally think we have one or two hardware and/or software changes to grow through - much as in the way smartphones, particularly the iPhone, changed online habits. As it is, digital versions of articles or whatever can and do get lost in the depths of our hard drives in a way that the collection of magazines does not.
The other factor is one of volume and variety. There is just so much more information, imagery and articles on climbing, in this case, than there was 50 years ago that things just don't stand out like they used to. Not to mention climbing itself being more fragmented than ever before - bouldering, sport climbing, 'trad climbing' (aka 'climbing' ) , big wall aid climbing, ice climbing, hard mixed climbing, commercial high altitude guided climbing and more traditional exploratory mountaineering. Would a high altitude mountaineer ever even see a great new article on bouldering?
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/is-google-making-us-stu...
Post edited at 03:22
2
In reply to Damo:
I agree with almost all of that. The one point I would question is the one about digital information getting lost on our hard drives in the way that magazines do not. Having just tried to locate some of those articles and covers in my collection specifically for this article, I now have no idea where my collection of Mountain mags is. One of our two attics probably, but not somewhere I am likely to go until we move house next time. On the flip side saying "in our hard drives" isn't quite right, since that is the personal stuff that is as lost as the print photos we never sorted through all those years ago. The equivalent of printed information in magazines is the published information on web sites, and that is both archived and searchable, albeit you often need to know what you are looking for.
This isn't a case of 'either or' though, and you are right to bring up the point of volume. For this reason obscure routes and first ascent information are slowly moving to a digital home as guidebooks struggle to cope with the volume. Whether this is a good thing or not is a hot topic - check the threads about BMC guides and first assent info - it is probably inevitable though, certainly in the case of obscure routes.
The web can never create a Mountain 6 cover - a single document associated with great content of historical significance, encapsulated in a single image - but a magazine can't create the full on participation and discussion that characterises online coverage. Or even something unique and significant as the 9/11 thread - https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=4184&v=1#x64351
My main point is that for posterity, don't dismiss online, or print, use both to their strengths. For nostalgia, who knows what our children will look back on fondly. With the new Zelda game being imminent, we have been going back through the classic Ocarina of Time in this house with a great sense of nostalgia that would have been difficult to predict back in 1998.
Alan
I agree with almost all of that. The one point I would question is the one about digital information getting lost on our hard drives in the way that magazines do not. Having just tried to locate some of those articles and covers in my collection specifically for this article, I now have no idea where my collection of Mountain mags is. One of our two attics probably, but not somewhere I am likely to go until we move house next time. On the flip side saying "in our hard drives" isn't quite right, since that is the personal stuff that is as lost as the print photos we never sorted through all those years ago. The equivalent of printed information in magazines is the published information on web sites, and that is both archived and searchable, albeit you often need to know what you are looking for.
This isn't a case of 'either or' though, and you are right to bring up the point of volume. For this reason obscure routes and first ascent information are slowly moving to a digital home as guidebooks struggle to cope with the volume. Whether this is a good thing or not is a hot topic - check the threads about BMC guides and first assent info - it is probably inevitable though, certainly in the case of obscure routes.
The web can never create a Mountain 6 cover - a single document associated with great content of historical significance, encapsulated in a single image - but a magazine can't create the full on participation and discussion that characterises online coverage. Or even something unique and significant as the 9/11 thread - https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=4184&v=1#x64351
My main point is that for posterity, don't dismiss online, or print, use both to their strengths. For nostalgia, who knows what our children will look back on fondly. With the new Zelda game being imminent, we have been going back through the classic Ocarina of Time in this house with a great sense of nostalgia that would have been difficult to predict back in 1998.
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
But will UKC still be on the web (if indeed the web still exists) in 100 years time? Modern technology ca 100 years ago was the gramophone. Who still plays cylindrical wax discs on one of those any more? Magazines, unless bound into volumes, are ephemeral and will largely end up in the recycling, being used to kindle woodburners, lining the bottom of rabbit cages etc not long after publication. Books, however, have stood the test of time, and you can walk into any good climbing club library and find full sets of that club's and many other climbing clubs' journals well over 100 years after they were published. The only thing one can confidently predict is that you and I will not be around to see whether you can do the same with UKC in another 80 years!
> I agree that it is worthy of being republished in a magazine, and considering the topic, that would seem appropriate.However, considering that every article ever published on UKC is still accessible to everyone with an internet connection 20 years after we set up the site, and magazines and journals of the same age are a rarity that need some effort to track down if you didn't get them first time round (and even if you did), then I would say 'posterity' is better served by the web in this case. Alan
But will UKC still be on the web (if indeed the web still exists) in 100 years time? Modern technology ca 100 years ago was the gramophone. Who still plays cylindrical wax discs on one of those any more? Magazines, unless bound into volumes, are ephemeral and will largely end up in the recycling, being used to kindle woodburners, lining the bottom of rabbit cages etc not long after publication. Books, however, have stood the test of time, and you can walk into any good climbing club library and find full sets of that club's and many other climbing clubs' journals well over 100 years after they were published. The only thing one can confidently predict is that you and I will not be around to see whether you can do the same with UKC in another 80 years!
In reply to Stephen Reid - Needle Sports:
That is just ridiculous doomsday speculation. Nobody plays wax discs any more but the music that was on them is still available, probably as an MP3 file now. The beauty of digital information is that when you create an improved format, you can easily convert the old information to the new format and keep it going, and because of this it is much easier to disseminate to people.
It is the information that is important, not the format it is in.
Alan
> But will UKC still be on the web (if indeed the web still exists) in 100 years time? Modern technology ca 100 years ago was the gramophone. Who still plays cylindrical wax discs on one of those any more?
That is just ridiculous doomsday speculation. Nobody plays wax discs any more but the music that was on them is still available, probably as an MP3 file now. The beauty of digital information is that when you create an improved format, you can easily convert the old information to the new format and keep it going, and because of this it is much easier to disseminate to people.
It is the information that is important, not the format it is in.
Alan
In reply to UKC Articles:
Mick, your article was a great read and a verbal/visual soundtrack to my own climbing and bumbling years from the early 60's onwards.
I found it a thoughtful and entertaining analysis, and a warm reflection on a significant era of the spread of climbing in the UK. It took me 40 years after seeing the Yosemite issue to finally get there, and it was worth the wait, but the mental images of those photos, like so many others, were powerful and lasting.
As a fully paid up Bumbly, a photo of ME ME ME only appeared once in all those mags - I think it was in Crags, a small pic of me, my son and 2 others roped together wearing pink tutus at an NMC Crimp for Crimbo competition at the Berghaus Wall in the mid 90's. Quite a claim to fame. Its all I could hope for, beyond having a Gully named after me.
Howevere, it brought back one big depressing thought - about 5 years ago I recycled (i.e. threw out) hundreds of old copies of nearly every issue of all of the mags in your piece. I can't believe I'm not smarter.
Cheers and thanks for a great article.
Dave
Mick, your article was a great read and a verbal/visual soundtrack to my own climbing and bumbling years from the early 60's onwards.
I found it a thoughtful and entertaining analysis, and a warm reflection on a significant era of the spread of climbing in the UK. It took me 40 years after seeing the Yosemite issue to finally get there, and it was worth the wait, but the mental images of those photos, like so many others, were powerful and lasting.
As a fully paid up Bumbly, a photo of ME ME ME only appeared once in all those mags - I think it was in Crags, a small pic of me, my son and 2 others roped together wearing pink tutus at an NMC Crimp for Crimbo competition at the Berghaus Wall in the mid 90's. Quite a claim to fame. Its all I could hope for, beyond having a Gully named after me.
Howevere, it brought back one big depressing thought - about 5 years ago I recycled (i.e. threw out) hundreds of old copies of nearly every issue of all of the mags in your piece. I can't believe I'm not smarter.
Cheers and thanks for a great article.
Dave
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Exactly. But you need to be able to access the data.
Did not some important evidence on magnetic tape get uncovered about the JFK assassination?
Nobody could access it until an old tape player was sourced, probably covered in dust in an attic
> .It is the information that is important, not the format it is in.Alan
Exactly. But you need to be able to access the data.
Did not some important evidence on magnetic tape get uncovered about the JFK assassination?
Nobody could access it until an old tape player was sourced, probably covered in dust in an attic
4
In reply to UKC Articles:
I stayed at a club hut a few years ago and the library was great - it included some bound Rocksports. It took all night and into the early hours to read them.
I stayed at a club hut a few years ago and the library was great - it included some bound Rocksports. It took all night and into the early hours to read them.
In reply to Rick Graham:
I am not sure what Luddite point you an Stephen are trying to make here. Using wax cylinders and magnetic tape to discredit the reliability of digital information is ridiculous. They aren't even digital.
It would be like avoiding using books because cave painting and bark scratching proved to be unreliable for recording accurate historical records.
Alan
> Exactly. But you need to be able to access the data.Did not some important evidence on magnetic tape get uncovered about the JFK assassination?Nobody could access it until an old tape player was sourced, probably covered in dust in an attic
I am not sure what Luddite point you an Stephen are trying to make here. Using wax cylinders and magnetic tape to discredit the reliability of digital information is ridiculous. They aren't even digital.
It would be like avoiding using books because cave painting and bark scratching proved to be unreliable for recording accurate historical records.
Alan
4
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
I think we are highlighting different points here, Alan.
Mine ( and probably one of Steve's ) was the reliability of the web to be the sole source of data storage.
As in climbing, we all benefit from backup systems.
> I am not sure what Luddite point you an Stephen are trying to make here.
I think we are highlighting different points here, Alan.
Mine ( and probably one of Steve's ) was the reliability of the web to be the sole source of data storage.
As in climbing, we all benefit from backup systems.
3
In reply to Rick Graham:
Agree with you, don't think it's an either/or.
However, it's worthwhile to point out that the only proven medium which lasts millennia is probably written or printed on archival paper, and appropriately archived.
Where's the source file and experimental data for my PhD? Well....it was on 5.25" floppy disks, then got archived to tape backup, then got backed up on a Raid server which got 'borrowed'. The IBM and Silicon Graphics mainframes which handled this have long gone, and there have been numerous generations of IT between then and now. Luckily my trusty paper copy is on one of my bookshelves and in the Uni Sheffield library.
FYI I'm running a lot (sadly the last) of EU funded R&D projects at the moment. For audit, all paperwork has to be colour originals, with signatures signed in ink. The onus on us is to guarantee archival space for 30 years on the paperwork
Agree with you, don't think it's an either/or.
However, it's worthwhile to point out that the only proven medium which lasts millennia is probably written or printed on archival paper, and appropriately archived.
Where's the source file and experimental data for my PhD? Well....it was on 5.25" floppy disks, then got archived to tape backup, then got backed up on a Raid server which got 'borrowed'. The IBM and Silicon Graphics mainframes which handled this have long gone, and there have been numerous generations of IT between then and now. Luckily my trusty paper copy is on one of my bookshelves and in the Uni Sheffield library.
FYI I'm running a lot (sadly the last) of EU funded R&D projects at the moment. For audit, all paperwork has to be colour originals, with signatures signed in ink. The onus on us is to guarantee archival space for 30 years on the paperwork
Post edited at 10:28
4
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
Was going to make a similar point with my PhD, I'm not even sure where the five inch floppies are now but I still have all my lab notes plus a printed copy of the thesis (with further copies in the University library). But a year or so ago I received a PDF version as Aberdeen have been scanning all the thesis in the library so now have a digital backup (although I doubt anyone would want to look at at a 25 year thesis). I also have a PDF of my undergraduate memoir, even older but apparently more often cited.
Was going to make a similar point with my PhD, I'm not even sure where the five inch floppies are now but I still have all my lab notes plus a printed copy of the thesis (with further copies in the University library). But a year or so ago I received a PDF version as Aberdeen have been scanning all the thesis in the library so now have a digital backup (although I doubt anyone would want to look at at a 25 year thesis). I also have a PDF of my undergraduate memoir, even older but apparently more often cited.
1
In reply to Doug:
Again,
I've got a printed copy of my final year undergrad dissertation, but all the lab data is sadly gone ;-(
My fault I know, but you go though so many job and house moves, spring cleans, house fires. It's amazing to have anything at all!
At the moment I've got stuff running in the Cloud and also on Internet of Things servers, but who knows where the companies or their servers and backup vaults will be in a few years time. From hard experience I've no idea where mine will be -)
> Was going to make a similar point with my PhD, I'm not even sure where the five inch floppies are now but I still have all my lab notes plus a printed copy of the thesis (with further copies in the University library). But a year or so ago I received a PDF version as Aberdeen have been scanning all the thesis in the library so now have a digital backup (although I doubt anyone would want to look at at a 25 year thesis). I also have a PDF of my undergraduate memoir, even older but apparently more often cited.
Again,
I've got a printed copy of my final year undergrad dissertation, but all the lab data is sadly gone ;-(
My fault I know, but you go though so many job and house moves, spring cleans, house fires. It's amazing to have anything at all!
At the moment I've got stuff running in the Cloud and also on Internet of Things servers, but who knows where the companies or their servers and backup vaults will be in a few years time. From hard experience I've no idea where mine will be -)
1
In reply to Rick Graham:
Well I have never suggested that it is an 'either or' situation - half my business is in print. What I would challenge is that print is a better place for writing/record keeping, which was sort of what Stephen was suggesting. Both have their strengths but both have their weaknesses as well.
Print is highly collectable and great book collections are things of wonder. But every print run ever produced starts diminishing from the moment it is released as copies get lost, are discarded, wear out, get damaged, until eventually the only way of protecting them is by restricting access and making them exclusive. In order to preserve this information you actually have to make sure it is hard to get hold of. This does create iconic items like memorable Mountain mags, and great club journals, but they are not items that it is easy for everyone to share, and the more exclusive they become, the fewer people can ever actually experience them.
Digital records on the other hand are perfectly copiable every time and easy to disseminate anywhere in the world. They have no exclusivity and can be preserved as long as people want. But this level of access means that there is no collectability about them. That coupled with the fact that a web site doesn't really have a precise time stamp, it just slowly evolves, means that there are few iconic digital pieces that we can all latch on to. However UKC is possibly some of the most widely read climbing writing in history because of this yet even I struggle to come up with a memorable UKC home page, and the great articles are still there clocking up views but seldom associated with the same time or era for everyone - hence not iconic.
Those who replied stating that they have lost the digital record of their PhDs are missing the point. Without wanting to be dismissive, who really cares that your backup files are missing? These are personal items (like the unsorted collections of print photos I mentioned previously) that it is up to you to look after and, had you really been bothered, then you would have done. Looking after data isn't automatic, it does need care and attention just like a book does, however if you do it right then the actual data itself should be as clear and accurate as it was when first published. It isn't a given though, and that needs pointing out, but not by dismissing it as a fragile system that can't be trusted.
Alan
> I think we are highlighting different points here, Alan.
> Mine ( and probably one of Steve's ) was the reliability of the web to be the sole source of data storage. As in climbing, we all benefit from backup systems.
> Mine ( and probably one of Steve's ) was the reliability of the web to be the sole source of data storage. As in climbing, we all benefit from backup systems.
Well I have never suggested that it is an 'either or' situation - half my business is in print. What I would challenge is that print is a better place for writing/record keeping, which was sort of what Stephen was suggesting. Both have their strengths but both have their weaknesses as well.
Print is highly collectable and great book collections are things of wonder. But every print run ever produced starts diminishing from the moment it is released as copies get lost, are discarded, wear out, get damaged, until eventually the only way of protecting them is by restricting access and making them exclusive. In order to preserve this information you actually have to make sure it is hard to get hold of. This does create iconic items like memorable Mountain mags, and great club journals, but they are not items that it is easy for everyone to share, and the more exclusive they become, the fewer people can ever actually experience them.
Digital records on the other hand are perfectly copiable every time and easy to disseminate anywhere in the world. They have no exclusivity and can be preserved as long as people want. But this level of access means that there is no collectability about them. That coupled with the fact that a web site doesn't really have a precise time stamp, it just slowly evolves, means that there are few iconic digital pieces that we can all latch on to. However UKC is possibly some of the most widely read climbing writing in history because of this yet even I struggle to come up with a memorable UKC home page, and the great articles are still there clocking up views but seldom associated with the same time or era for everyone - hence not iconic.
Those who replied stating that they have lost the digital record of their PhDs are missing the point. Without wanting to be dismissive, who really cares that your backup files are missing? These are personal items (like the unsorted collections of print photos I mentioned previously) that it is up to you to look after and, had you really been bothered, then you would have done. Looking after data isn't automatic, it does need care and attention just like a book does, however if you do it right then the actual data itself should be as clear and accurate as it was when first published. It isn't a given though, and that needs pointing out, but not by dismissing it as a fragile system that can't be trusted.
Alan
Post edited at 17:57
3
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Alan, I think you agree with Paul, Doug and me.
You just have not realised yet
Alan, I think you agree with Paul, Doug and me.
You just have not realised yet
5
In reply to UKC Articles:
Back on for a few thoughts – well maybe more than a few. But first, something pretty important.
Writing’s a bit like redpointing - it would be great if you could get someone else to do it for you. Unfortunately though, you can’t.
But then again, if you’re Billy No Mates, it’s ideal. You can shut yourself away in a room and get on with it… or not.
Come the fine day though, even the most dedicated Billy No Mates finds that he needs not just a little help from other people – but a lot. And sure enough this is exactly what happened.
Recently we’ve had much agonising about conflict on these forums. But what about the converse? What about when magically, unhesitatingly, even complete strangers give you whatever help you ask? Isn’t that worth acknowledging, thanking, celebrating? Sadly it’s human nature to agonise over the bad yet somehow take the good for granted. As arguably the finest and wisest writer in history noted aptly: ‘The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones.’
Apart from a single relevant magazine, the entire article was written from memory – that’s over 50 years of memory! Luckily I knew exactly which images I wanted – yet again from memory. Some were on the database; many weren’t.
The first port of call was my climbing partner, Marcus O’Leary. He came up with every requested image instantly. He also – get this – spent three hours digitally cleaning up one of them. What a mate!
The next port of call was David Price, the guidebook king. He dropped everything and went looking for what he could lay his hands on. We also started to correspond about guidebooks and the Chew – topics ‘more important than life itself.’
I sent a copy to Al Evans, one of the most important people in the article. And he alerted me to the first error – the Edelrid Girl being in Mountain, not Rocksport. (50 year old memory, huh!) Now you’re probably kind enough to say it doesn’t really matter too much – but of course it would to Ken Wilson. And, increasingly over the past week, I could hear Ken’s ghostly chuckle, “You’d better get this right – the pressure’s on now, mate!”
Then I got in touch with an old mate (and superb climbing writer) Steve Dean. Oops, more little niggles. Mr Memory Man wasn’t doing as well as he thought. But far better to know than not know.
Steve put me in touch with a fantastic guy called Chris Harle who has custody of Ken’s photographic oeuvre. (Let’s never forget that, apart from all else at which he excelled, Ken was one of the best ever climbing photographers.) I phoned Chris up out of the blue and he just said, “What do you need?” – yup, to a complete stranger. Crucially Chris had a full set of Mountains – Ken’s old copies. Yes, I know… how poignant, yet how fitting does it get?
Mr Memory Man’s confidence having abruptly deserted him, I belatedly asked Ian Parsons to run a check on things. In between looking after his 97 year old mum, back came the most penetrating of analyses. (Ken could have put you to good use!) Luckily though, there didn’t seem to be whopping errors. But I now realise – this project was simply too big, too ambitious.
Let’s face it, you could spend years of research, go to mountaineering libraries and read hundreds of magazines, do dozens of interviews and write 50,000 or 100,000 words - which unfortunately no-one would ever read.
Concentrating on the four cult mags (but sadly having to ignore well-nigh everything else) gave me a kind of a way through. But it was still problematic. Most articles weigh in at about 2,000 words. Even going at a brisk canter, this was still around 6,000 words – three articles back to back. Was this really going to work?
The minute I opened Natalie Berry’s layout, I knew. I just knew. It was like listening to the first thirty seconds of ‘Walk on the Wild Side’ for the very first time when I was twenty-one. You get this warm glow inside. You just know.
I don’t really think it would have worked properly without the digital layout – which I’d never even considered. But there are layouts… and there are layouts. Natalie’s layout went so far beyond what I’d ever imagined. I knew instantly that it was stunningly, utterly, gobsmackingly right. To me now, ‘Prometheus Unchained’ is as much - if not more – hers’ as mine. I’m eternally grateful to her.
Which brings us to the vexed and thorny subject of editors and publishers. Believe me, I’ve had the good, the bad and the ugly. You can be the best writer going but if you haven’t got an editor and a publisher rooting for you, then you’re just spinning your wheels in the sand. The converse applies though. Once in a blue moon, you find a dream editor – and then you fly.
If Alan James and Natalie and the other UKC members hadn’t believed in the article, then you’d never have read it. It’s that simple.
Images… above all, I was desperate to use Sir Chris Bonington’s wonderful photo of the young Ken (clutching Mountain 4!) taking us onward into the promised land. Chris came straight through for us. Ken was a good mate and he did him proud. It’s incredibly poignant to think that the same hand (perhaps the same camera?) which took that shot of Ken also took the unforgettable one of Brian Nally on the Eiger, not so very long before.
The two photos of Ken are like bookends with the story coming between. Gordon Stainforth’s superb shot of Ken with the wisdom and humanity of age, just before the onset of his sad decline, was the perfect ending.
Every single person who was asked gave their help without the slightest hesitation. It’s not just my article any longer – nor Natalie’s and mine. It belongs to all of these people. And most of all it belongs to you, the reader.
Does this have wider relevance? Yes. It’s all too apparent that we live in a horribly broken world. It’s perilously easy to give in to fear and become viciously self-interested. But the human spirit has been around far longer than problems on here… or Brexit… or Donald Trump. People can display the most astonishing levels of selflessness to make good causes happen. Exactly the same thing occurred with ‘Peak Rock’. Untold dozens of people were asked for help. Virtually everybody gave it without the slightest hesitation.
It’s temptingly easy to get mesmerised by what’s wrong. It’s equally easy to take what goes right for granted. The human spirit can make good things happen almost magically. We need to become far more aware of this, to develop confidence in it. The human spirit is immeasurably more powerful than Brexit or Trump of anything else sent to try us. .
Sorry to have banged on for so long! I’d hoped that ‘Prometheus Unchained’ would resonate deeply with many people – and it seems to have done so. I thank everyone for their good wishes; equally I thank all those who so magically made it happen.
Lastly if anything’s going to get us through these dire times, it’s the human spirit. It’s done so before and it can do so again. But we need to put more trust in it.
Mick
Back on for a few thoughts – well maybe more than a few. But first, something pretty important.
Writing’s a bit like redpointing - it would be great if you could get someone else to do it for you. Unfortunately though, you can’t.
But then again, if you’re Billy No Mates, it’s ideal. You can shut yourself away in a room and get on with it… or not.
Come the fine day though, even the most dedicated Billy No Mates finds that he needs not just a little help from other people – but a lot. And sure enough this is exactly what happened.
Recently we’ve had much agonising about conflict on these forums. But what about the converse? What about when magically, unhesitatingly, even complete strangers give you whatever help you ask? Isn’t that worth acknowledging, thanking, celebrating? Sadly it’s human nature to agonise over the bad yet somehow take the good for granted. As arguably the finest and wisest writer in history noted aptly: ‘The evil that men do lives after them; the good is oft interred with their bones.’
Apart from a single relevant magazine, the entire article was written from memory – that’s over 50 years of memory! Luckily I knew exactly which images I wanted – yet again from memory. Some were on the database; many weren’t.
The first port of call was my climbing partner, Marcus O’Leary. He came up with every requested image instantly. He also – get this – spent three hours digitally cleaning up one of them. What a mate!
The next port of call was David Price, the guidebook king. He dropped everything and went looking for what he could lay his hands on. We also started to correspond about guidebooks and the Chew – topics ‘more important than life itself.’
I sent a copy to Al Evans, one of the most important people in the article. And he alerted me to the first error – the Edelrid Girl being in Mountain, not Rocksport. (50 year old memory, huh!) Now you’re probably kind enough to say it doesn’t really matter too much – but of course it would to Ken Wilson. And, increasingly over the past week, I could hear Ken’s ghostly chuckle, “You’d better get this right – the pressure’s on now, mate!”
Then I got in touch with an old mate (and superb climbing writer) Steve Dean. Oops, more little niggles. Mr Memory Man wasn’t doing as well as he thought. But far better to know than not know.
Steve put me in touch with a fantastic guy called Chris Harle who has custody of Ken’s photographic oeuvre. (Let’s never forget that, apart from all else at which he excelled, Ken was one of the best ever climbing photographers.) I phoned Chris up out of the blue and he just said, “What do you need?” – yup, to a complete stranger. Crucially Chris had a full set of Mountains – Ken’s old copies. Yes, I know… how poignant, yet how fitting does it get?
Mr Memory Man’s confidence having abruptly deserted him, I belatedly asked Ian Parsons to run a check on things. In between looking after his 97 year old mum, back came the most penetrating of analyses. (Ken could have put you to good use!) Luckily though, there didn’t seem to be whopping errors. But I now realise – this project was simply too big, too ambitious.
Let’s face it, you could spend years of research, go to mountaineering libraries and read hundreds of magazines, do dozens of interviews and write 50,000 or 100,000 words - which unfortunately no-one would ever read.
Concentrating on the four cult mags (but sadly having to ignore well-nigh everything else) gave me a kind of a way through. But it was still problematic. Most articles weigh in at about 2,000 words. Even going at a brisk canter, this was still around 6,000 words – three articles back to back. Was this really going to work?
The minute I opened Natalie Berry’s layout, I knew. I just knew. It was like listening to the first thirty seconds of ‘Walk on the Wild Side’ for the very first time when I was twenty-one. You get this warm glow inside. You just know.
I don’t really think it would have worked properly without the digital layout – which I’d never even considered. But there are layouts… and there are layouts. Natalie’s layout went so far beyond what I’d ever imagined. I knew instantly that it was stunningly, utterly, gobsmackingly right. To me now, ‘Prometheus Unchained’ is as much - if not more – hers’ as mine. I’m eternally grateful to her.
Which brings us to the vexed and thorny subject of editors and publishers. Believe me, I’ve had the good, the bad and the ugly. You can be the best writer going but if you haven’t got an editor and a publisher rooting for you, then you’re just spinning your wheels in the sand. The converse applies though. Once in a blue moon, you find a dream editor – and then you fly.
If Alan James and Natalie and the other UKC members hadn’t believed in the article, then you’d never have read it. It’s that simple.
Images… above all, I was desperate to use Sir Chris Bonington’s wonderful photo of the young Ken (clutching Mountain 4!) taking us onward into the promised land. Chris came straight through for us. Ken was a good mate and he did him proud. It’s incredibly poignant to think that the same hand (perhaps the same camera?) which took that shot of Ken also took the unforgettable one of Brian Nally on the Eiger, not so very long before.
The two photos of Ken are like bookends with the story coming between. Gordon Stainforth’s superb shot of Ken with the wisdom and humanity of age, just before the onset of his sad decline, was the perfect ending.
Every single person who was asked gave their help without the slightest hesitation. It’s not just my article any longer – nor Natalie’s and mine. It belongs to all of these people. And most of all it belongs to you, the reader.
Does this have wider relevance? Yes. It’s all too apparent that we live in a horribly broken world. It’s perilously easy to give in to fear and become viciously self-interested. But the human spirit has been around far longer than problems on here… or Brexit… or Donald Trump. People can display the most astonishing levels of selflessness to make good causes happen. Exactly the same thing occurred with ‘Peak Rock’. Untold dozens of people were asked for help. Virtually everybody gave it without the slightest hesitation.
It’s temptingly easy to get mesmerised by what’s wrong. It’s equally easy to take what goes right for granted. The human spirit can make good things happen almost magically. We need to become far more aware of this, to develop confidence in it. The human spirit is immeasurably more powerful than Brexit or Trump of anything else sent to try us. .
Sorry to have banged on for so long! I’d hoped that ‘Prometheus Unchained’ would resonate deeply with many people – and it seems to have done so. I thank everyone for their good wishes; equally I thank all those who so magically made it happen.
Lastly if anything’s going to get us through these dire times, it’s the human spirit. It’s done so before and it can do so again. But we need to put more trust in it.
Mick
14
In reply to Rick Graham:
Rick, take a 'like' for that
> Alan, I think you agree with Paul, Doug and me.You just have not realised yet
Rick, take a 'like' for that
In reply to UKC Articles:
Thanks Mick - I really enjoyed this article and would like to keep re-reading it but I have two questions?
First - is there a way I can download it to read offline? And second - how long might it be retained on UKC?
Thanks Mick - I really enjoyed this article and would like to keep re-reading it but I have two questions?
First - is there a way I can download it to read offline? And second - how long might it be retained on UKC?
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
Most browsers have a save as 'web archive' or 'Web Page - Complete' option which allows you to have a copy on your desktop to read anytime.
I have no idea why you think we would want to remove it at any stage but based on our track record, we have had at least 17 years of Charles Arthur's Tom Cruise epic https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=18 and still counting!
Alan
> First - is there a way I can download it to read offline?
Most browsers have a save as 'web archive' or 'Web Page - Complete' option which allows you to have a copy on your desktop to read anytime.
> And second - how long might it be retained on UKC?
I have no idea why you think we would want to remove it at any stage but based on our track record, we have had at least 17 years of Charles Arthur's Tom Cruise epic https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=18 and still counting!
Alan
1
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Thanks Alan - I have learnt something new about saving webpages. The second question was more about how long it would feature as a main article, but good to hear that it will always be there.
Thanks Alan - I have learnt something new about saving webpages. The second question was more about how long it would feature as a main article, but good to hear that it will always be there.
1
In reply to keith-ratcliffe:
The main featured content obviously moves on from time to time, but Digital Features have a longer life span on the home page as well as being compiled in the page under Articles > Digital Features so you can find them all there at any time. Ultimately that page may get a bit full in which case we will use some sub-arciving system.
Cheers
Alan
> Thanks Alan - I have learnt something new about saving webpages. The second question was more about how long it would feature as a main article, but good to hear that it will always be there.
The main featured content obviously moves on from time to time, but Digital Features have a longer life span on the home page as well as being compiled in the page under Articles > Digital Features so you can find them all there at any time. Ultimately that page may get a bit full in which case we will use some sub-arciving system.
Cheers
Alan
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
Which ironically wouldn't happen now as we'd all be on social media. Will there be a similar piece in 2037 chronicling the rise and fall of online forums?
Mick, I enjoyed the article very much, thank you.
> Or even something unique and significant as the 9/11 thread - https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=4184&v=1#x64351
Which ironically wouldn't happen now as we'd all be on social media. Will there be a similar piece in 2037 chronicling the rise and fall of online forums?
Mick, I enjoyed the article very much, thank you.
In reply to UKC Articles:
Another thumbs up...my "ah that takes me back!" moment is for the first issues of On The Edge!
Another thumbs up...my "ah that takes me back!" moment is for the first issues of On The Edge!
In reply to UKC Articles:
Great article - thanks - have spent the weekend flicking through all the old copies. They don't make them like that these days.
In terms of the print vs digital debate .....print will survive and endure alongside the digital files. We are just beginning to realise analogue is actually superior to digital in many respects. Polaroid for example is on a comeback as is vinyl. ..
Great article - thanks - have spent the weekend flicking through all the old copies. They don't make them like that these days.
In terms of the print vs digital debate .....print will survive and endure alongside the digital files. We are just beginning to realise analogue is actually superior to digital in many respects. Polaroid for example is on a comeback as is vinyl. ..
In reply to UKC Articles:
Here are some people whom I think deserve to be remembered vis a vis climbing magazines.
I believe that, in the early days of Mountain, Ken used to send copy down to Mike and Judy Yates in their cottage in Wales. They’d copy edit/proofread it and return it (no email back then!)
Although Paul Nunn was mentioned, I have a feeling that he was of huge importance to Mountain pretty much all the way through. He also wrote a superb retrospective of Stoney in the early 1970s. I remember he termed Stoney ‘a rock-climbers’ apocalyptic vision of the wasteland.’
Ken had a talent for scouting talent. He found a young American cartoonist called Sheridan Anderson and used his drawings in Mountain and Games Climbers Play. Anderson’s drawings are utter classics. They’re infused with humanity and a lovely wry, self-deprecating humour. Sadly it seems that Anderson was a troubled soul. He died young.
Audrey Salkeld edited the People column in Mountain for years. Often, back then, climbers I knew just didn’t get it. But of course what she was doing was showing us the human face of mountaineering, exposing us to some of the personalities. For me, it was the best part of the magazine.
Obviously High magazine was around for a long time. Neil Foster’s Rock Notes column was superb. It did for rock-climbing what Lindsay Griffin’s Mountain INFO did for mountaineering. Neil would give breaking news, he’d take us behind the scenes and he’d give informed (and always scrupulously fair) comment.
Andy Popp wrote a short piece for On The Edge and promptly got poached by Birtles for High. His pieces appeared regularly for years and were invariably extremely thought-provoking. I suspected that Birtles simply wanted him for street cred and the youth vote but the reality is that Andy’s a highly gifted writer. He’s also the most intellectually able climber I’ve ever met. And if there were a list of ten best climbers’ climbers, he’d definitely be on it.
The Pokketz cartoons in On The Edge were my favourite part of it. Pokketz was, of course, Alan James and before you scream, “Cronyism!” this is entirely on merit. A J beautifully caught Jerry’s smirk, Ben’s deadpan superiority, Johnny’s out to lunch (on another planet!) Who could forget Johnny Cellar Dweller (Ian Vincent?) and his fear of the light? Or Johnny Psycho Man (Dave Thomas?)
The Thing was climbing’s version of Viz. Editor was affable artiste and Brummie bon viveur (eh, what is it with Brummies and climbing mags?) Paul Evans. His editorial manifesto assured us that he was ‘… responsible for nothing.’ Viva the revolution, Paul! P E also gave us cartoon character Marvin Bore, whose radical approach to weight loss is unlikely ever to feature on a performance climbing course.
Lastly if there’s a single piece of writing which I’m allowed to choose from over fifty years of climbing mags, it would undoubtedly be the compelling Prisoners of Gravity, by Paul Williams’ son Chris. It featured in On the Edge shortly after Paul died. In probably less than a thousand words, Chris said what really matters about climbing, relationships, love, frailty, joy, loss. It would have brought tears to Paul’s eyes; it certainly brought them to mine. And he’s absolutely right – we’re all prisoners of gravity until it finally chooses to release us.
Mick
Here are some people whom I think deserve to be remembered vis a vis climbing magazines.
I believe that, in the early days of Mountain, Ken used to send copy down to Mike and Judy Yates in their cottage in Wales. They’d copy edit/proofread it and return it (no email back then!)
Although Paul Nunn was mentioned, I have a feeling that he was of huge importance to Mountain pretty much all the way through. He also wrote a superb retrospective of Stoney in the early 1970s. I remember he termed Stoney ‘a rock-climbers’ apocalyptic vision of the wasteland.’
Ken had a talent for scouting talent. He found a young American cartoonist called Sheridan Anderson and used his drawings in Mountain and Games Climbers Play. Anderson’s drawings are utter classics. They’re infused with humanity and a lovely wry, self-deprecating humour. Sadly it seems that Anderson was a troubled soul. He died young.
Audrey Salkeld edited the People column in Mountain for years. Often, back then, climbers I knew just didn’t get it. But of course what she was doing was showing us the human face of mountaineering, exposing us to some of the personalities. For me, it was the best part of the magazine.
Obviously High magazine was around for a long time. Neil Foster’s Rock Notes column was superb. It did for rock-climbing what Lindsay Griffin’s Mountain INFO did for mountaineering. Neil would give breaking news, he’d take us behind the scenes and he’d give informed (and always scrupulously fair) comment.
Andy Popp wrote a short piece for On The Edge and promptly got poached by Birtles for High. His pieces appeared regularly for years and were invariably extremely thought-provoking. I suspected that Birtles simply wanted him for street cred and the youth vote but the reality is that Andy’s a highly gifted writer. He’s also the most intellectually able climber I’ve ever met. And if there were a list of ten best climbers’ climbers, he’d definitely be on it.
The Pokketz cartoons in On The Edge were my favourite part of it. Pokketz was, of course, Alan James and before you scream, “Cronyism!” this is entirely on merit. A J beautifully caught Jerry’s smirk, Ben’s deadpan superiority, Johnny’s out to lunch (on another planet!) Who could forget Johnny Cellar Dweller (Ian Vincent?) and his fear of the light? Or Johnny Psycho Man (Dave Thomas?)
The Thing was climbing’s version of Viz. Editor was affable artiste and Brummie bon viveur (eh, what is it with Brummies and climbing mags?) Paul Evans. His editorial manifesto assured us that he was ‘… responsible for nothing.’ Viva the revolution, Paul! P E also gave us cartoon character Marvin Bore, whose radical approach to weight loss is unlikely ever to feature on a performance climbing course.
Lastly if there’s a single piece of writing which I’m allowed to choose from over fifty years of climbing mags, it would undoubtedly be the compelling Prisoners of Gravity, by Paul Williams’ son Chris. It featured in On the Edge shortly after Paul died. In probably less than a thousand words, Chris said what really matters about climbing, relationships, love, frailty, joy, loss. It would have brought tears to Paul’s eyes; it certainly brought them to mine. And he’s absolutely right – we’re all prisoners of gravity until it finally chooses to release us.
Mick
5
In reply to Mick Ward:
I think the Sheridan Anderson (aka E. Lovejoy Wolfinger III) cartons were 'borrowed' from the Vulgarian Digest, which I guess could be considered an American forerunner of Crags or The Thing (see http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1467539/Vulgarian-Digest & eg http://s96.photobucket.com/user/doghike/media/vd/1-03.jpg.html?sort=3&o... )
I think the Sheridan Anderson (aka E. Lovejoy Wolfinger III) cartons were 'borrowed' from the Vulgarian Digest, which I guess could be considered an American forerunner of Crags or The Thing (see http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1467539/Vulgarian-Digest & eg http://s96.photobucket.com/user/doghike/media/vd/1-03.jpg.html?sort=3&o... )
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
You misunderstand the significance of the word 'Luddite.' A common mistake.
Contrary to what you write, I can assure you that magnetic tape used in the computing world is (and always has been) very 'digital' indeed ...
The wider point is that the storage technology moves very quickly and that you might struggle to get hardware which can read even relatively recent media: try getting a drive for 5 1/4" floppies nowadays. So, whilst you might still technically have the information, you might not be able to actually get at it ...
(The famous BBC 'Doomsday Book' optical disc is another recent example which comes to mind.)
This isn't a recent insight: 'digital curation' centres around the world have been struggling with this problem for a long time now.
> I am not sure what Luddite point you an Stephen are trying to make here.
You misunderstand the significance of the word 'Luddite.' A common mistake.
> Using wax cylinders and magnetic tape to discredit the reliability of digital information is ridiculous. They aren't even digital.
Contrary to what you write, I can assure you that magnetic tape used in the computing world is (and always has been) very 'digital' indeed ...
The wider point is that the storage technology moves very quickly and that you might struggle to get hardware which can read even relatively recent media: try getting a drive for 5 1/4" floppies nowadays. So, whilst you might still technically have the information, you might not be able to actually get at it ...
(The famous BBC 'Doomsday Book' optical disc is another recent example which comes to mind.)
This isn't a recent insight: 'digital curation' centres around the world have been struggling with this problem for a long time now.
Post edited at 11:50
3
1
In reply to Doug:
I didn't know about these links - thanks so much. Those ole Vulgarians, hey they knew how to party!
Ken was absolutely superb at what I suppose we'd call 'reframing'. He'd see something which had worked elsewhere, 'reframe it', make it better and use it. In no way was he an original thinker but he was the most superb 'shaper' of ideas I've ever known.
For instance, as I learned only recently from Steve Dean, the wonderful 'Sixties cool' simplictiy of the Mountain logo was taken straight from the Architects' Journal.
In Extrem Fels became Hard Rock...
He re-used, re-purposed. Always he made better...
Mick
I didn't know about these links - thanks so much. Those ole Vulgarians, hey they knew how to party!
Ken was absolutely superb at what I suppose we'd call 'reframing'. He'd see something which had worked elsewhere, 'reframe it', make it better and use it. In no way was he an original thinker but he was the most superb 'shaper' of ideas I've ever known.
For instance, as I learned only recently from Steve Dean, the wonderful 'Sixties cool' simplictiy of the Mountain logo was taken straight from the Architects' Journal.
In Extrem Fels became Hard Rock...
He re-used, re-purposed. Always he made better...
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
> The Pokketz cartoons in On The Edge were my favourite part of it. Pokketz was, of course, Alan James and before you scream, “Cronyism!” this is entirely on merit.
Seconded!I vaguely knew Fliss Butler from Mile End, and the "Romeo and Juliet" storyline with Ben Moon was brilliant (something along the lines of "With this range of new Ben Moon holds shall I o'ercome these walls"), and of course who could forget "Matchstick? Bleedin' bivvy ledge", which was a frequent catch phrase used by mates and I to rib those who'd just fallen something likely much larger!
> The Pokketz cartoons in On The Edge were my favourite part of it. Pokketz was, of course, Alan James and before you scream, “Cronyism!” this is entirely on merit.
Seconded!I vaguely knew Fliss Butler from Mile End, and the "Romeo and Juliet" storyline with Ben Moon was brilliant (something along the lines of "With this range of new Ben Moon holds shall I o'ercome these walls"), and of course who could forget "Matchstick? Bleedin' bivvy ledge", which was a frequent catch phrase used by mates and I to rib those who'd just fallen something likely much larger!
In reply to Mick Ward:
I'm not 100% but if I recall correctly the article was called 'Stoney Middleton at the Change of Life', shortly after it was published Tom tried, failed on and named Menopause.
Chris
> Although Paul Nunn was mentioned, I have a feeling that he was of huge importance to Mountain pretty much all the way through. He also wrote a superb retrospective of Stoney in the early 1970s. I remember he termed Stoney ‘a rock-climbers’ apocalyptic vision of the wasteland.’
I'm not 100% but if I recall correctly the article was called 'Stoney Middleton at the Change of Life', shortly after it was published Tom tried, failed on and named Menopause.
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
That rings faint bells - but it's so long ago! What I do remember clearly was the crisp historical portrayal and the use of black and white photos to convey a sense of starkness about the climbing/place, i.e. the industrial wasteland.
I know I was gobsmacked about the photos of Richard MacHardy on Our Father. Back then, it looked absolutely ridiculous. Then and there I knew I wanted to do it. It was the same feeling as I'd had when I first saw Ken's photosequence in The Black Cliff of Drummond running it out on Great Wall.
Didn't Al do the FA of Menopause with a nut (or two?) for aid, name it and then Tom famously failed on it, knackering his tendons? I remember Paul Mitchell saying that it was extremely unfair given that, in his view, Tom had climbed an awful lot harder.
I also remember a super-strong and on-form Neil Bentley saying how impressed he'd been after doing Four Minute Tiler in the early 1990s.
Mick
That rings faint bells - but it's so long ago! What I do remember clearly was the crisp historical portrayal and the use of black and white photos to convey a sense of starkness about the climbing/place, i.e. the industrial wasteland.
I know I was gobsmacked about the photos of Richard MacHardy on Our Father. Back then, it looked absolutely ridiculous. Then and there I knew I wanted to do it. It was the same feeling as I'd had when I first saw Ken's photosequence in The Black Cliff of Drummond running it out on Great Wall.
Didn't Al do the FA of Menopause with a nut (or two?) for aid, name it and then Tom famously failed on it, knackering his tendons? I remember Paul Mitchell saying that it was extremely unfair given that, in his view, Tom had climbed an awful lot harder.
I also remember a super-strong and on-form Neil Bentley saying how impressed he'd been after doing Four Minute Tiler in the early 1990s.
Mick
2
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
But not entirely. Books (and magazines and LP's) with covers can be memorable things of beauty in a way that a digital file or link on the internet can never be. I really don't think that in 40 years time we shall be reading about stuff published online with the same startling recognition and nostalgia with which we have read Mick's article.
> It is the information that is important, not the format it is in.
But not entirely. Books (and magazines and LP's) with covers can be memorable things of beauty in a way that a digital file or link on the internet can never be. I really don't think that in 40 years time we shall be reading about stuff published online with the same startling recognition and nostalgia with which we have read Mick's article.
1
In reply to Mick Ward:
That sounds right - UKC logbook says FA. Al Evans 1971,
Chris
> Didn't Al do the FA of Menopause with a nut (or two?) for aid, name it and then Tom famously failed on it, knackering his tendons?
That sounds right - UKC logbook says FA. Al Evans 1971,
Chris
In reply to Chris Craggs:
The quote about the 'A rockclimber's apocalyptic vision of the wasteland' is from the introduction to the Stoney Middleton section of Paul Nunn's 'Rock climbing in the Peak District' Constable guide - arguably the first photo topo guide and the only example I know of the use of technical grades down to M 1c !
> I'm not 100% but if I recall correctly the article was called 'Stoney Middleton at the Change of Life', shortly after it was published Tom tried, failed on and named Menopause.Chris
The quote about the 'A rockclimber's apocalyptic vision of the wasteland' is from the introduction to the Stoney Middleton section of Paul Nunn's 'Rock climbing in the Peak District' Constable guide - arguably the first photo topo guide and the only example I know of the use of technical grades down to M 1c !
1
In reply to Dave Garnett:
I'm pretty sure (though not certain!) that P N used it in the earlier article. It was so good that one can scarcely blame him for using it again.
Those technical grades were certainly interesting. The 4as that are now 5a... Quietus in at 6a...
Mick
I'm pretty sure (though not certain!) that P N used it in the earlier article. It was so good that one can scarcely blame him for using it again.
Those technical grades were certainly interesting. The 4as that are now 5a... Quietus in at 6a...
Mick
In reply to UKC Articles:
Really good Mick.
I agree Rocksport was the first to cater exclusively for the ordinary climber with early editions a bit rough round the edges, but it did take off and become an informative and interesting magazine.
Mountain felt much different with some heavyweight articles generally by the elite of the day with some really iconic photography. It also seemed to reflect the centre of gravity of climbing in the 60's which was North Wales.
I still wander back into the garage and find that old box of mags and bring a few indoors and have a really good read.
Really good Mick.
I agree Rocksport was the first to cater exclusively for the ordinary climber with early editions a bit rough round the edges, but it did take off and become an informative and interesting magazine.
Mountain felt much different with some heavyweight articles generally by the elite of the day with some really iconic photography. It also seemed to reflect the centre of gravity of climbing in the 60's which was North Wales.
I still wander back into the garage and find that old box of mags and bring a few indoors and have a really good read.
In reply to UKC Articles:
Ace, thanks! It's unreal how vivid some of the articles, photos and info were - I can still remember first ascent descriptions of obscure routes in S Wales quarries, the photos of Dave T on the Mucklehouse wall on Rora head, Hoy in Mountain persuading me to go up there. Last year whilst kicking abut Ireland between jobs on a Sunday I ended up in Glendalough, Wicklow and part remembered an article from (20+??) years back that intrigued me and got my arse out of the car (though I got drenched walking across the carpark and retreated to the pub for a pint and some soup!) - possibly one of your Mick?
Ace, thanks! It's unreal how vivid some of the articles, photos and info were - I can still remember first ascent descriptions of obscure routes in S Wales quarries, the photos of Dave T on the Mucklehouse wall on Rora head, Hoy in Mountain persuading me to go up there. Last year whilst kicking abut Ireland between jobs on a Sunday I ended up in Glendalough, Wicklow and part remembered an article from (20+??) years back that intrigued me and got my arse out of the car (though I got drenched walking across the carpark and retreated to the pub for a pint and some soup!) - possibly one of your Mick?
In reply to tutbury:
Yes Rocksport was a bit rough around the edges at first but it was pretty much from a standing start. (At least Ken had some kind of platform with Mountain Craft.) I'd hoped - and would have loved it - if people like Les Ainsworth had come on here and told us what happened. I've just never known!
While I cannot complain in the least about the reception of this article (people have been incredibly kind and appreciative), if I have one regret it's that none of the surviving pioneers have come on here to give us their reminiscences. They so enriched our world. You pick up those mags and it's a treasure trove - and I desperately wanted all that inspiration, all that incredibly hard work to be remembered and celebrated.
Mick
P.S. I remember Tony Shaw once telling me that he'd seen a copy of the very first issue of Rocksport sitting in the rain in a car-boot sale in a field in Langdale. He nabbed it for the princely sum of five p or something like that. Typical of Tony's altruism, he didn't want it for himself, it was for the late Paul Williams, who was somewhat of a collector and coveted that issue. Apparently Paul was delighted!
Yes Rocksport was a bit rough around the edges at first but it was pretty much from a standing start. (At least Ken had some kind of platform with Mountain Craft.) I'd hoped - and would have loved it - if people like Les Ainsworth had come on here and told us what happened. I've just never known!
While I cannot complain in the least about the reception of this article (people have been incredibly kind and appreciative), if I have one regret it's that none of the surviving pioneers have come on here to give us their reminiscences. They so enriched our world. You pick up those mags and it's a treasure trove - and I desperately wanted all that inspiration, all that incredibly hard work to be remembered and celebrated.
Mick
P.S. I remember Tony Shaw once telling me that he'd seen a copy of the very first issue of Rocksport sitting in the rain in a car-boot sale in a field in Langdale. He nabbed it for the princely sum of five p or something like that. Typical of Tony's altruism, he didn't want it for himself, it was for the late Paul Williams, who was somewhat of a collector and coveted that issue. Apparently Paul was delighted!
In reply to Deri Jones:
Right at the beginning of this thread, Greg Lucas made the point very well that those magazines could have a huge impact on you (particularly if you started climbing at a young, impressionable age). And they could inspire you. I still remember Paul Ross articles in The Climber in the late 1960s. I used to read them in a mountain rescue hut in the Mournes. I can still smell the oil from the Tilley lamp (which I could rarely get to work!) I'd just have to bed down in the dark.
This may be the article you're referring to. The layout is a bit odd and there seem to be a lot of miss-spellings and grammar glitches but hey, who cares, I'm not precious about things (precious, moi?)
http://theshortspan.com/features/mickward.htm
I had a really weird day in Glendalough in 1969 when I was 16. It was a coming of age day, really the day when I passed from childhood into adulthood. I don't mean in a sexual way, just entering an adult world with its complexities. Although I didn't realise it, all the elements of Greek tragedy were present in the valley. There were seven of us, five climbing, one secretly watching, one at a distance. On that day, our lives interracted. There was a lot of complexity; my life was changed forever. The two major protagonists were killed ten days later on the Sentinelle Rouge. In the article I wrote something like, 'Little did any of us then know how fleeting would be their triumph.'
Sorry you got wet though - I think hitting the pub was a good move!
Mick
Right at the beginning of this thread, Greg Lucas made the point very well that those magazines could have a huge impact on you (particularly if you started climbing at a young, impressionable age). And they could inspire you. I still remember Paul Ross articles in The Climber in the late 1960s. I used to read them in a mountain rescue hut in the Mournes. I can still smell the oil from the Tilley lamp (which I could rarely get to work!) I'd just have to bed down in the dark.
This may be the article you're referring to. The layout is a bit odd and there seem to be a lot of miss-spellings and grammar glitches but hey, who cares, I'm not precious about things (precious, moi?)
http://theshortspan.com/features/mickward.htm
I had a really weird day in Glendalough in 1969 when I was 16. It was a coming of age day, really the day when I passed from childhood into adulthood. I don't mean in a sexual way, just entering an adult world with its complexities. Although I didn't realise it, all the elements of Greek tragedy were present in the valley. There were seven of us, five climbing, one secretly watching, one at a distance. On that day, our lives interracted. There was a lot of complexity; my life was changed forever. The two major protagonists were killed ten days later on the Sentinelle Rouge. In the article I wrote something like, 'Little did any of us then know how fleeting would be their triumph.'
Sorry you got wet though - I think hitting the pub was a good move!
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
I think you may have got a different response if you had been writing a book. The digital media can seem very ephemeral. In some respect it's far more satisfying picking up and reading those old magazines which feel much more permanent.
I think you may have got a different response if you had been writing a book. The digital media can seem very ephemeral. In some respect it's far more satisfying picking up and reading those old magazines which feel much more permanent.
In reply to tutbury:
It's a tricky one, isn't it? When I mentioned this project a while ago (I was nervously contemplating it), Gordon Stainforth suggested a book. But I didn't feel there was a book (which significant numbers of people would read) in it. A (very long) article seemed about right - and Natalie producing it in a digital format was the very best way of treating it imho. I'm so very grateful to her.
Would the pioneers have come forward in greater numbers due to a book? I somehow doubt it. They know this place exists; they could come on here (though I reluctantly accept that Birtles won't). But they could come on if they wanted.
From a writer's point of view, the problem with books and magazine articles is that so often you're writing into silence. People may read them - but you don't know that. You so rarely have any feedback whatsoever. And that's a very lonely place in which to live. For a writer, well for this writer anyway, loneliness, both personal and professional, has always been a huge problem.
Given the choice, I'd rather this venue. At least I'm not writing into silence. I love the interaction with readers; it gives me a sense that I've broken through to them, that I've not entirely wasted my life. And if it's ephemeral, well I'm not complaining, not complaining at all.
Mick
It's a tricky one, isn't it? When I mentioned this project a while ago (I was nervously contemplating it), Gordon Stainforth suggested a book. But I didn't feel there was a book (which significant numbers of people would read) in it. A (very long) article seemed about right - and Natalie producing it in a digital format was the very best way of treating it imho. I'm so very grateful to her.
Would the pioneers have come forward in greater numbers due to a book? I somehow doubt it. They know this place exists; they could come on here (though I reluctantly accept that Birtles won't). But they could come on if they wanted.
From a writer's point of view, the problem with books and magazine articles is that so often you're writing into silence. People may read them - but you don't know that. You so rarely have any feedback whatsoever. And that's a very lonely place in which to live. For a writer, well for this writer anyway, loneliness, both personal and professional, has always been a huge problem.
Given the choice, I'd rather this venue. At least I'm not writing into silence. I love the interaction with readers; it gives me a sense that I've broken through to them, that I've not entirely wasted my life. And if it's ephemeral, well I'm not complaining, not complaining at all.
Mick
1
In reply to Mick Ward:
I think you are right Mick. It is a much more interactive medium and obviously gives you plenty of feedback and dialogue. It's a shame climbing doesn't figure as much in the national conscious , as it once did. I don't understand why we don't see more on television. Levison Wood seems to be doing pretty well just walking and then following up the TV series with a book.
Along with lots of people on here I look forward to many more of your excellent articles.
Bob
I think you are right Mick. It is a much more interactive medium and obviously gives you plenty of feedback and dialogue. It's a shame climbing doesn't figure as much in the national conscious , as it once did. I don't understand why we don't see more on television. Levison Wood seems to be doing pretty well just walking and then following up the TV series with a book.
Along with lots of people on here I look forward to many more of your excellent articles.
Bob
In reply to UKC Articles:
Really enjoyed the article and thought it was beautifully presented. Thanks!
Really enjoyed the article and thought it was beautifully presented. Thanks!
1
In reply to SuperstarDJ:
Thanks to both of you!
[To Bob]
I think that when Jim Perrin was writing about climbing, it was exactly the right time and he succeeded in actually making some proper money at it - so good for him! I've always been highly aware that the money just wasn't there. If people could pay you, then great; if they couldn't, I'd just let them have stuff anyway. For me it was more about doing what I loved and giving back to the climbing community in my own way.
For many years I felt that I was living in Jim's shadow. That's not something he'd have wanted (we're mates) but back then there was only room for one predominant UK climbing writer - and it was him. Nowadays things have fractured and there are loads of people doing good stuff. The more the merrier - we're all the richer because of it! And Jim's moved on to writing about walking and mountaineering, so he seems happy too. Every UK climbing writer owes a lot to him; back in the 70s and 80s, he really opened up the genre.
Mick
Thanks to both of you!
[To Bob]
I think that when Jim Perrin was writing about climbing, it was exactly the right time and he succeeded in actually making some proper money at it - so good for him! I've always been highly aware that the money just wasn't there. If people could pay you, then great; if they couldn't, I'd just let them have stuff anyway. For me it was more about doing what I loved and giving back to the climbing community in my own way.
For many years I felt that I was living in Jim's shadow. That's not something he'd have wanted (we're mates) but back then there was only room for one predominant UK climbing writer - and it was him. Nowadays things have fractured and there are loads of people doing good stuff. The more the merrier - we're all the richer because of it! And Jim's moved on to writing about walking and mountaineering, so he seems happy too. Every UK climbing writer owes a lot to him; back in the 70s and 80s, he really opened up the genre.
Mick
2
In reply to SuperstarDJ:
And yes, it was beautifully presented! Huge thanks to Natalie and the UKC team. They really did it proud. As a writer, you just couldn't ask for more.
Mick
And yes, it was beautifully presented! Huge thanks to Natalie and the UKC team. They really did it proud. As a writer, you just couldn't ask for more.
Mick
2
In reply to UKC Articles:
Brilliant article Mick. Gives us young-uns a real impression of how climbing and climbing literature has evolved over the years.
Big thumbs up to all those who helped put this together.
Brilliant article Mick. Gives us young-uns a real impression of how climbing and climbing literature has evolved over the years.
Big thumbs up to all those who helped put this together.
1
In reply to UKC Articles:
Just read the article, really enjoyed it, however there's one omission - On the Edge was set up and edited jointly by Ed Douglas and Bill McKee. Bill had previously edited MUMC mags and has a photographic memory for route descriptions FA details etc.
Just read the article, really enjoyed it, however there's one omission - On the Edge was set up and edited jointly by Ed Douglas and Bill McKee. Bill had previously edited MUMC mags and has a photographic memory for route descriptions FA details etc.
In reply to Mark Kemball:
Am glad you liked it. Inevitably there are many, many omissions, so many interesting threads leading off into so many enticing directions. I didn't know (or had forgotten) that Bill McKee was the joint editor with Ed; apologies for that. I knew he was significantly involved at the beginning. I certainly valued his input highly and was sad when he stepped down. (Was that because of Ed selling the mag and Gill/Greg coming in?) I believe I once met him at Stoney Quarry (I think he was on John Peel.) A really nice guy, if I've got the right person.
This highlights what may be a generic point. So often in setting up mags, on expeditions, on doing anything really, there are relatively unsung heroes, sometimes mentioned in the credits, often not. I'm always sad when they don't get recognition and hoped that more people would come on here, as you have, so they're acknowledged.
However in this case the omission is clearly mine so I do apologise to Bill McKee and thank you once again for taking the trouble to mention it.
Mick
Am glad you liked it. Inevitably there are many, many omissions, so many interesting threads leading off into so many enticing directions. I didn't know (or had forgotten) that Bill McKee was the joint editor with Ed; apologies for that. I knew he was significantly involved at the beginning. I certainly valued his input highly and was sad when he stepped down. (Was that because of Ed selling the mag and Gill/Greg coming in?) I believe I once met him at Stoney Quarry (I think he was on John Peel.) A really nice guy, if I've got the right person.
This highlights what may be a generic point. So often in setting up mags, on expeditions, on doing anything really, there are relatively unsung heroes, sometimes mentioned in the credits, often not. I'm always sad when they don't get recognition and hoped that more people would come on here, as you have, so they're acknowledged.
However in this case the omission is clearly mine so I do apologise to Bill McKee and thank you once again for taking the trouble to mention it.
Mick
In reply to Mick Ward:
I may have got it wrong, but I know that he and Ed set it up together and I think he carried on for a while as news editor after Gill took over. I shared a flat with Bill as an early 80s Manchester based dole climber, but I'd moved away by the time they set up On the Edge, so I may have got my facts wrong. Bill could read a guidebook once, then was able to quote route descriptions at the crag, if I'm unsure of my facts about a climb, I'll just email him for the answer - "Oh yes, you led that with ... November '82", or "The guidebook's wrong the FA was... in..."!
I may have got it wrong, but I know that he and Ed set it up together and I think he carried on for a while as news editor after Gill took over. I shared a flat with Bill as an early 80s Manchester based dole climber, but I'd moved away by the time they set up On the Edge, so I may have got my facts wrong. Bill could read a guidebook once, then was able to quote route descriptions at the crag, if I'm unsure of my facts about a climb, I'll just email him for the answer - "Oh yes, you led that with ... November '82", or "The guidebook's wrong the FA was... in..."!
In reply to Mark Kemball:
It sounds as though he has an eidetic memory. If I remember correctly, he compiled the new routes and very well too. There was another guy who used to write really interesting stuff in early OTEs, can't remember his name, a teacher living in the Peak. I met him on the crags a few times. Also loved Greg Griffiths drawings/writing - he seemed very talented too. So much talent out there. At least some of Greg Griffiths's talent got to shine in guidebooks and in Gill's cafe guide to the UK - which I loved. So much time spent in cafes!
Mick
It sounds as though he has an eidetic memory. If I remember correctly, he compiled the new routes and very well too. There was another guy who used to write really interesting stuff in early OTEs, can't remember his name, a teacher living in the Peak. I met him on the crags a few times. Also loved Greg Griffiths drawings/writing - he seemed very talented too. So much talent out there. At least some of Greg Griffiths's talent got to shine in guidebooks and in Gill's cafe guide to the UK - which I loved. So much time spent in cafes!
Mick
1
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