UKC

I am a 16 year old who has been climbing for quite a few years both indoors and out with my parents and friends. I have used several climbing walls and have always been able to belay without supervision after being assessed as competent. I have just tried to join a posh new climbing wall in Shrewsbury and have been informed that I cannot belay unsupervised until I am 18 years old. In fact I have to have an adult holding the brake rope at all times. I don't understand this as at 17 I can drive a 2 ton car with passengers, at 14 I can fly a glider solo, at 16 I can get married and have children etc. I think with this policy the wall will be shooting themselves in the foot as this will not encourage us young climbers.
Comments please.

In reply to lookingforjugs:

Can't help you with that - great username for a 16 year old though.

Wally

In reply to lookingforjugs:

I thought stuff was pretty unfair when I was 16. I couldnt drink in pubs, I couldnt vote so that I could elect somebody who would let me drink in pubs. I could smoke at 16 - but not in pubs (You cant even smoke now WTF? Amirite?) . I could also get married, but i couldnt have the reception in pubs.

Then i got to 18 and realised it was a good thing that 16 year olds couldnt drink in pubs.

Then i got to 25 and hated that pubs and clubs were full of 18 year olds.

Now i just drink in old man pubs and whinge about young 'ens

I hope this helps

In reply to lookingforjugs:

It is a bit ridiculous that in this country there isn't really one age at which you become an adult. Fwiw I think it's should change to 17 for everyone to do everything, that would be a reasonable compromise. The idea that you can drive a car to the climbing wall and then need a grown up to hold your rope is daft. I wonder if insurance is the issue? I have known kids I would trust to belay and adults I wouldn't.

In reply to lookingforjugs:

I'm with you on this. As long as what you say is right and there's no reasonably easy way for you to demonstrate belaying competence, the wall would definitely not be acting in the interests of the climbing community as a whole. Clearly it can't be an insurance requirement as so many other walls seem to manage ok, so I wouldn't be fobbed off easily with that lame excuse.
I'd get in touch with the BMC and ask if they could look into it for you. It doesn't matter if you're a member or not as they represent all climbers and not just members, but joining is worth considering too.

In reply to lookingforjugs:

I gather (though may be wrong) that this wall is run by a non-climber. Non-climbers tend not to understand climbing culture, and often want to impose more rules than are necessary.

In reply to lookingforjugs:

Ridiculous!! My 15 year old has been lead belaying me and others for a couple of years now. Does the wall offer the NICAS scheme? If they do, lead belaying is taught at levels 4 and 5, if they don't offer the scheme, they ought too. Point the management at this thread.

In reply to Bogwalloper:

Hi
I was using my father's account didn't think about the username at the time
Thanks for pointing it out

In reply to lookingforjugs
I am now using my own account rather than my father's . I wanted to add that I can be a level 1 kayaking coach and coach people who don't know me but at this wall I can't even belay my father who I have been climbing with for years.

In reply to Snowey:

From their web page http://www.shropshireleisurecentres.com/shrewsbury_svillage/FAC_ClimbingWal...
"Climbing Wall
The main climbing area consists of 11 climbing panels with three routes on each panel and the grades range from 4a to 6a.  There are two small bouldering walls with a number of routes to warm up on. For younger or novice climbers there is an upper gallery which has a number of shorter ropes to learn the fundamental skills."

Has anyone been and can they give a report?

Steve

In reply to lookingforjugs:

Its a pretty stupid rule, especially as they can easily test/observe your competence. There could even be a disclaimer form to be signed by a person you were belaying. They are bound to lose a bit of money in fees too.
I suppose they might be getting cheaper insurance than other walls because of this policy.

In reply to Steve Clegg:


He probably means this new wall: https://climbingthewalls.club/ not the one you linked to.

In reply to lookingforjugs:
What if you use a Gri-gri? Or is this not enough? BTW you can certainly father children earlier than 16! As the other poster suggested, call the BMC. They have a officer who is responsible for all types of youth issues (mainly to do with training and comps). But they may take an interest in this issue. Personally I am all for encouraging and supporting young people interested in progressing their climbing skills and experience. Indeed you are the future and stars of tomorrow. I suspect that it all comes down to insurance. And Insurance companies have some strange ideas about climbing. When I first got a mortgage they want assurance I would only climb for 7 years. That was nearly 50 years ago!
I hope you get it sorted. Good luck with your climbing.

In reply to lookingforjugs:

That's a username that's open to different interpretations.

T.

In reply to lookingforjugs:
If only the uk had a universal Scheme/card whereby after demonstrating competence at belaying you could climb/belay at any wall.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

I am female by the way

In reply to Snowey:
Probably best you have your own user name then. It may be the username that made people think you were a male. Anyway I think getting in touch with the BMC youth officer would be a good idea. I hope you get it sorted out.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-staff-list

In reply to lookingforjugs:

You're right; they're stupid.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Correction:

She probably means this new wall: https://climbingthewalls.club/ not the one you linked to.

In reply to lookingforjugs:

Sounds like a crazy rule. If you can belay safely you can belay safely, end of! Both my sons have belayed from about the age of 12 and Id trust them more than some of the so-called competent adult belayers that I see from time to time.

I'm not sure how they'll go on with schools, junior clubs etc which I imagine a quite an important income stream at most walls.

I guess the bottom line is that the owners can make up their own rules and if you dont like it, dont spend your money there.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I wish to confirm that it is
https://climbingthewalls.club/
The other wall has no problems with me belaying

In reply to Snowey:
Few things here. Firstly there policies say you need to be supervised by an adult. Which it sounds like you were. At that point it is the adults decisions on the suitability of a young person to belay. Obviously a 4 year old belaying 15 stone dad would be inappropriate but if your technique is fine, its fine.
Secondly most walls particularly ones associated with the ABC rin NICAS. From my experiance from level 2 maybe 3 onwards i would say its the norm to peer belay or let a third child back up the rope. So seems a bit unreasonable.

As they are a firly new wall i would maybe clarify it with them. Some times staff impose their own rules. Bit at the end of the day their staff have to follow their rules and policys. Particularly if the staff are sight specific qualified by a technical advisor.

In this case it would seem this isnt mentioned in their policy so it may be worth highlighting this to them.

Best option. Head outside instead where you have no company to impose rules(mostly).
Again BMC can give guidance and you may have a climbing wall representative as part of your bmc area group that can help.

In reply to Snowey:

New wall, new staff, new procedures. Half the people there probably have no idea what they are doing (management wise) so will just be taking health and safety to the nth degree in everything to avoid an accident (getting sued) rather than running a smooth operation. Hopfully in time they'll fall into line with other centres but by then you'll probably be 18 anyway.

In reply to lookingforjugs:
Hi, I have nothing to do with the centre although I know a couple of the staff. This is from the terms and conditions on their website -

"Children/Minors (under 18)
ALL children/minors in the centre must be supervised by an adult unless they have been assessed by the management and registered for unsupervised climbing."

I'd go back and ask the management to assess you

HTH

In reply to Steve Clegg:

Routes only up to 6a? Bit of a farce to make you belay at all in my opinion!

In reply to lookingforjugs:

Is this top roping or lead or both?

Either way it sounds like inexperience and it's not mentioned on the website which is pretty incompetent. As a parent if I had driven to climb with my kids after checking the website only to find this sort of unusual rule in place I'd let them know I thought it was dumb.

Some walls do have some weird rules, I used to phone in advance to check if visiting a new wall but I expect 100% to get that info off a website now.

FWIW At Leeds Wall under 18s can't lead belay unless they do a £90 course, so I've seen two 17 year old Youth Lead Team GB captains be unable to warm up their mates before national comps! The BMC still patronises the wall with regional and national comps though, even though they know the parents think it's crap.

The website expresses a desire to run NICAS so they will allow it eventually but possibly only as part of an instructed group, so again more money. But from a wall's POV the numbers (and cash) are in churning beginner youths, not catering for the smaller number of advanced youths who need more independence.

OTOH I don't know of a wall (bouldering or ropes) in the country that allows an under 18yo to act as a supervisor for novice climbers, even if you point out that drove your husband there after gliding in from Long Mynd whilst breastfeeding you daughter.

At the moment you can vote with your feet and go elsewhere or grasp the nettle and get yourself well known to the staff by taking part in supervised sessions and demonstrating your competence in the hope they'll be more helpful in the future.

And get a few people to point out it's an extraordinarily restrictive approach.

In reply to lookingforjugs:

That's just ridiculous.....

In reply to lookingforjugs:

Contact them for clarification of their rules as there's a distinct possibility that there's some sort of confusion on someone's behalf.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

They seem to use standard ABC/BMC T&Cs which include this:

Children/Minors (under 18)
ALL children/minors in the centre must be supervised by an adult unless they have been assessed by the management and registered for unsupervised climbing.

Perhaps they just haven't got their risk assessments and plans for this in place yet? What did they say to you?

In reply to stuartholmes:

Someone up on the wall is not usefully supervising someone belaying them. Many or even most walls do not allow people supervising novices to climb (other than bouldering) unless there is a second supervising person.

In reply to lookingforjugs:

It seems to be a consistent thing amongst ukc users that no one understands the duty of care that walls hold towards their users. No it's not a free bloody country, and you can't just crack your own whenever and wherever you want.
If you pay entry to a wall, you are using their facilities, and should follow their rules. Regardless of how silly they may seem to be.
Anyway, back to the duty of care thing. You will have signed to say you accept the bmc/abc participation statement, and you climb at your own risk, but it is still the walls duty to ensure safety is kept to a the highest standard possible.
Under 18s are not adults, and by law cannot sign for themselves or be responsible for themselves. If a wall just allowed under 18s to crack their own in the way they will for adults, and something went wrong, there would be hell to pay.
Having said that, as someone has quoted, the default setting is 'under 18s must be supervised unless assessed. '
IME, a wall I know will have a detailed and thorough assessment of an under 18, but above 14, who claims to be competent. If found competent, the parent may agree to allow their child to climb unsupervised. Which is essentially what was quoted earlier.

In response to the op, don't be offended, and you should expect this as standard. Press the staff for an assessment, but given that they are a new start, they may not be totally organised as yet.

In reply to Snowey:

Belay with a Gri-gri and ask your dad you hold the end of the dead rope as he climbs? Technically still doing as you're told.....

In reply to Tomtom:

Well perhaps they have a duty to be bloody organised.

In reply to Tomtom:

I think it is reasonable to expect some sort of assessment, and that a parent should sign a disclaimer. My wall is considering asking unsupervised under 18s to join the BMC.

In reply to stuartholmes:


Might be a bit too wet + cold for several months to want to do that, also might be miles to travel, and too dark after work / school / college.
Even in good weather, the convenience of a local climbing wall is desirable when pressed for time.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:


The wall Steve clegg linked to with routes up to 6a is a different wall, at Shropshire leisure centre.

The wall the OP is discussing is "Climbing the walls"

https://climbingthewalls.club/

Doesn't mention hardest grades but guess it will go upto at least 7a?
Also has 5 autobelays.... Great investment and way to get punters in in less populated areas where partners aren't always easy to arrange.

In reply to pjcollinson:

More often there isn't an alternative for miles around, unless you are in the bigger cities. + for Shrewsbury, its miles to anyway else, except the other wall, which limits you to 6a.

In reply to Tomtom:

I'm glad that attitude wasn't prevalent when I was at school - they'd never have let us near guns!

In reply to The Green Giant:

I'd say being a smart alec in relation to safety rules, however misplaced they may be, would be a good way to get banned.

My personal view is that for novices the supervisor must not leave the ground in a roped area unless someone else is supervising as well (typically if taking a novice I'd take another experienced climber too, then that can be arranged easily enough). If I opened a wall those would be the rules. I think that is what most walls do. If you're not concentrating on supervising 100%, you're not adequately supervising, and if you're having a climb yourself you're not concentrating on supervising 100%.

OTOH, for young people they should provide a framework for competence assessment. If they're new they just probably haven't worked it out yet - in due course I'm sure they will. In the meantime, tell them (politely) why you're going elsewhere, and go elsewhere. You could even ask if they're willing to set up a list of contacts who might want an assessment, and contact you/them when they are ready.

In reply to lookingforjugs:

Very frustrating! - why should an artificial restriction be placed, surely it is more about competency.
Belaying competence is not a factor of age (although different weights could be an issue). I have seen more complacency with the occasional ‘old experienced’ climbers than younger ones.

As Winhill already mentioned at Leeds you can’t belay below 18. I started climbing at Leeds with my 17 year old daughter and she was not allowed to belay. I was told she could belay if she went on a course, but that it meant attending loads of sessions and by the time she finished she would probably be 18 anyway.

This meant I ended up bouldering and belaying her unless we were with others. When she turned 18 I went to Harrogate and we both joined up. When I explained we had not bothered joining until she turned 18 they found this most amusing. Had we gone there rather than Leeds she could have been belaying as soon as judged competent. I had just assumed this restriction applied to all walls.

In reply to deepsoup:


A business doesn't have a duty to do anything other than follow a relatively small body of laws. They don't, for example, even have to allow <18s in at all - age discrimination laws tend to apply to protect older people, not younger people. If they make poor business decisions their business may fail - that's the main sanction.

In reply to wercat:


Yeah, I'd forgotten about that! At 14 we were let loose in the CCF with .303 SMLE Lee Enfield Rifles with which we fired live rounds on the school's 30 yard range, and blanks on field exercises. This was in 1958 when they had only just decided that letting us have bayonets as well was a step too far!

In reply to Tomtom:

As I said, in this country we are in crazy position where "children" can't watch an 18 film, but can legally be having sex 2 years earlier. They can live independently at 16, with a child of their own, but not sign a tenancy agreement. They can be interviewed as an adult at a police station at 17, and drive a car.

It's not that I don't understand the rules, it's that the rules have evolved over time without any common thread as to what constitutes an adult. Pointing out that this is ridiculous doesn't mean I don't understand.

As for the walls duty of care, I don't see why they can't assess the under 18 as competent and have the parent sign the paperwork on the "child's" behalf. As long as all 3 the child the parent and the instructor are happy the "child" can belay safely and understands that if they get it wrong there are severe consequences (just like driving a car) then I'd say that would cover duty of care. Presumably the numerous other walls that allow children to belay have this approach.

In reply to Neil Williams:

In the case of novices I'd agree, you can't assume some one can effectively supervise a novice while they belay them. In the case of an experienced teenager I'd say it's fine to "supervise" them as a parent while you are climbing because you know if your own child can be trusted to behave and is able to safely belay while you are on the wall. It's a different issue if they know what they are doing.

In reply to lookingforjugs:
They may have this rule because their insurance has it as a clause. Other walls have no belaying under 18 years because of this.

In reply to marsbar:

Fair point, though sensible walls would assess such a teenager and give them permission to belay anyway.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Indeed, I wasn't suggesting a legal duty to be bloody well organised obviously, merely that they bloody well should.

That said, if they have procedures and policies in place I do think you could make a case that it's incumbent on the management to ensure that the staff they have supervising the place are reasonably familiar with those procedures and policies, no?

In reply to wbo:
I got a look at a NICAS logbook today at our wall and it struck me that you could put a couple of relevant elements of level 1 together as a simple 'badge' that could be the basis of your universal card. Anyone completing it would be exempt from a test at any wall they visited - if you don't have it you do a test. Any thoughts on this?

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

Except you're then relying on an unknown person that you don't employ (and who's ability you don't know, not all assessors assess to the same standard!) saying that a minor is competent to belay at a wall you are responsible for.

Can't see many wall owners being too happy about that.

In reply to Oceanrower: not sure i really see your problem here. I live in norway, i have a Brattkort - Its a standard card that you get after taking a standard course example in trying in, leading indoors, belaying a top rope and belaying a leader. Once you have that you can climb unspervised in any wall in Norway. Valid from 14 years up.

Its not difficult

In reply to wbo:
Brattkort:

translatable to “steep licenese” and is imposed by the Norwegian Climbing Association (NKF)

From further reading (and I might be wrong) it seems membership of the OSI Klatring is obligatory.

The UK (well England and Wales) does not have a statutory body and there is no requirement to join any club either.

This in the UK is not a 'problem' but it is a different environment.

If someone wants to sponsor a national scheme then why not? but given the robust nature of the varied opinions of the UK climbing community. It is not something I would be investing time in.

In reply to aostaman:

It'd have to be the ABC or BMC who led something like this, and I doubt it is a priority for either given that the system broadly works as it is.

In reply to lookingforjugs: My daughter has been belaying me at Inverness wall since she was 11 yrs old, always with a weight bag. The wall runs a kids introduction to climbing course over a number of Sunday afternoons, which she attended prior to belaying me and then off we went. Common sense prevails!