UKC

I'm looking to improve my Winter Clothing Setup and would appreciate any advice....

I was up Scafell Pike, in the dark, in the snow and with gale force winds at the weekend. Apparently the wind chill was around minus 15 degrees. My gear needs tweaking for such conditions.

I have my normal setup dialled for temps down to about minus 4 degrees but colder than that is relatively new territory for me.

This weekend, I ended up with Arcteryx Phase AR Base Layer, NF Summit Series alpine style hooded fleece, Rab Vapourise Gillet and the ME Goretex Shell. I was warm but was constantly adding and removing layers to control my temperature and both the base layer and gillet were soaking. If I'd have needed to stop for more than a few minutes, I reckon I would have become cold quite quickly. I realise newer shells are more breathable but my mate was having the same issue in is new top end shell.

So, I'm looking to improve breathability with a view to better moisture management and to reduce the need for adding and removing layers.

I have my eye on a couple of the hydrid style jackets, so I can ditch the shell and mid layers (keep the shell in the pack for heavy rain) - Rab Alpha Direct Jacket and Arcteryx Procline Jacket looking the most appealing.

What's the best setup in such cold conditions?

Cheers, Matt

In reply to afx22:

My string is 3.89m long. Other people's string will probably be different, but mine works best for me
If it's really cold, buffalo type stuff works well.

In reply to afx22:
Baselayer and softshell for anything active. Add in an Arc'Teryx Atom LT (or similar) for anything active but a bit slower such as climbing. Belay jacket to go over the top when stopped for more than a few minutes (I use a ME Fitzroy).

I dislike hardshells and avoid them entirely unless the weather is properly minging and temperature hovering around 0 degrees. If it's well below freezing you won't get wet anyway as everything just freezes and by the time it thaws you'll be almost back to the car/cafe...

In reply to afx22:

If it's really cold, wet and windy you won't stay particularly warm but the more layers you have the better and get off the mountain pdq

In reply to afx22:

For those sort of conditions I would recommend a thin Base Layer and Paramo Aspira smock. Thats all I use in winter. Never been cold or wet yet. Occasionally too warm on the walk in though!

In reply to afx22:

Paramo with a couple of baselayers of your choice underneath. Has worked for me
in Northern Norway as well as UK.
Not as stylish or sexy as some brands but it works and those are the ideal conditions for it.

In reply to afx22:

Buffalo.

Paramo and baselayer + belay jacket if you're feeling a bit less brave.

Did a four day walk in Snowdonia recently - temps ranged from +8c to -4c with windchill at -12c, sunshine, rain, snow, clear nights and everything in between - a mix of a buffalo S6, baselayer and a Paramo feura windshirt meant I was happy the whole time...

The paclite jacket in the bottom on my sack never even got pulled out, let alone worn.

In reply to afx22:

My mum always told me that everyone is different and what works for one won't work for others. I'm afraid I agree with
Andy Hardy as my bit of string isn't the same as his either. Its no good telling you that this bit of kit is better than this bit of kit and so on.

Personally I'd get fit, move fast and you don't need to stop.

In reply to afx22:

What about a Marmot Driclime with nothing underneath and a shell on top if needed.
If you sweat like me, then change these when you're high enough and less likely to sweat much more, to a buffalo with hood. You will still have a shell and it doesn't matter if it's wet.
The point of the shell is to add protection to the buff. It will need a decent storm hood.
So, in your bag goes a wet Driclime and out comes the Buffalo.
Add a decent belay jacket for anymore stops and you shouldn't need anything else?

In reply to afx22:

Tackle the problem from the inside - Brynje Super Thermo 'string vest' under your baselayer.

I'm surprised at how much support there is for Paramo. I've always thought of it as old skool and out of date but I guess I need to look again.

Thanks for all of the replies.

In reply to afx22:

I've never been a particulary sweaty person, active or not, but I have two words for you...

Pit zips.

Good for regulating temperate without adding and removing layers, and let's be honest, nothing is as breathable as a hole.

In reply to afx22:

Poly base
primaloft mid fleece
g2 softshell with pitzips
me fitzroy belay for real cold
thin balaclava
mitts

Slow down if I start sweating and remove balaclava/gloves for a few minutes to let out heat or adjust layers.

In reply to afx22:


Wind chill is bollocks, it wasn't -15 this weekend in the Lakes, it was maybe -2 or -3 at 900 mtrs (I was climbing on Great Gable on Saturday). It was however very windy, but giving windchill numbers is effectively meaningless because it really doesn't feel anything like being naked in still weather at -15 (I have actually done that so can state it from experience!).

It sounds like you have very good outdoor gear already. I think you need to just accept that if you want to go winter climbing, some discomfort will happen. There is no magic bullet that will work perfectly, the stuff you have sounds very good at already. If you don't have one, get a belay jacket -then you know even terrible weather is unlikely to kill you, otherwise just get out there and get more experience.

In reply to TobyA:

Harsh, but fair

For what it's worth, I use a simple base layer (usually Helly or similar but have some Decathlon winter weight stuff for Baltic weather), a fleece mid layer or more recently a Simond hybrid top and a Paramo Enduro windproof over the top. This has been toasty in UK winter walking conditions though I always chuck in a belay jacket (rab alpine generator) and if it's really chilly a booster mid layer (I picked up a berghaus hypertherm hoody which uses witchcraft to keep you warm)
The Enduro and booster layer are lighter and warmer /more windproof than a softshell (I tried a Rab Exodus) as well as more versatile. Am I missing something?

In reply to afx22:

+1 for a Brynje string vest. Great in very cold and very minging conditions. The polypropylene version pongs a bit with use but holds no moisture.
+1 for a belay jacket. These days I tend to be quite lightly layered for the walk in. Once the harness goes on or I reach the summit if its a walking day, I'll dig out the belay jacket. As Toby says, if you've got one of those, no matter what happens. you will be warm "enough".

In reply to TobyA:


Not entirely bollocks...

You can stand quite happily in cold, dry, still air, and not feel very cold; the heat loss mechanisms are radiation (dependent on ambient temperature), and conduction/convection.

Windchill adds forced convection. Windchill is why your PC has a fan, and it works; forced convection.

Windchill in cold, damp air adds forced convection with increased conduction.

If there's moisture involved, then we add evaporation. Evaporation is a very effective heat loss mechanism, due to the enormous latent heat of vaporisation of water; it's why we sweat.

It's not rocket science, but it is science, and science we have a feel for from our everyday experience.

In reply to Dheorl:

Not only do I like pit zips, I like the honesty of pit zips. A company's way of basically saying "we will tell you our garment is breathable until we're blue in the face but we've added some pit zips because in reality we know that some people are sweaty furnaces and will be guaranteed to overheat without the added ventilation."

In reply to TobyA:

Nice one Toby, man up!!

Stuart

In reply to afx22:

-15C, pah that's t shirt weather in Yorkshire...

In reply to captain paranoia:

Of course you get cold quicker when it's windy - this is so startlingly obvious to anyone over the age of about 5 (days) it seems almost redundant to say it. But it is putting a figure to it which is pointless and also very confusing for people. I'm not sure what the OP means when he said he has his system dialled to -4, but I doubt it was colder than that on Scafell last weekend. It definitely wasn't -15. It was bloomin' blowy though on Saturday.

In reply to TobyA:
Putting a number on it seems perfectly sensible to me.

If it's -10 out, then all's grand. Put on a warm coat, decent trousers and hat, and you're good to go.

If it's -10 with a windchill of -35 you better cover up every bit of skin you don't want to loose within the hour.

Being slightly over-dramatic, and of course people can use their common sense, but it's not a completely meaningless number.

In reply to TobyA:


And that's what windchill attempts to do; to give a figure for the air temperature that would give an equivalent rate of heat loss in still conditions, taking out the variable factor of wind speed. Many people can't cope with two variables, so windchill attempts to reduce it to one. Interpreted correctly, it can help guide you to choosing the appropriate degree of protection needed from your clothing system.

In reply to captain paranoia:

But it's meant to be 'feel on skin' which seems ridiculous as who goes out climbing naked? Plus having for 15 years gone outside after weekly family sauna in Finland, (or just about any social occasion when the sauna is fired up!) with just a towel on when in winter the air is still but it can be -15 or colder, if feels nothing like being in a blizzard in Scotland when it's -1; the latter is much worse.

Saying "with the high winds the windchill will be severe" is fine, but saying "the windchill will be -21" I still believe is meaningless - the majority of people in the UK have never experienced -21 anyway, and -2 and gale doesn't feel anything like it anyway.

But mainly lots of people don't seem to get windchill isn't the temperature. We had discussions here on UKC where people were convinced things should freeze because although forecast temperature was somewhat above zero, the forecast windchill was said to be "-6" or whatever.

In reply to TobyA:

Yes, that's me, used to wear a Patagonia Puffball Vest that I was given. Though for the same pack size have upgraded to a ME Compressor Jkt, this has the added benefit of a hood, zips up to nose.

Stuart

In reply to TobyA:

It seems equally ridiculous to think that people have covered every inch of their skin from head to toe when they go out climbing, but maybe that's just me...

Irregardless of what it feels like (and yes, we've all been very cold places, naked or otherwise, and know that different "types" of cold feel different, in your case largely due to the condition of your body prior) a windchill number is something that has a very real effect when it comes to the condition of exposed skin.

In reply to TobyA:
We measured minus 3.8 degrees (mate's Garmin Fenix 3 with external sensor). The Minus 15 wind-chill I quoted was from the Fell Top Assessment Report for that day. Here's the latest http://www.lakedistrictweatherline.co.uk/

I like to put a number on the temperature so I can plan future trips based on forecasts.

It definitely felt a bit nippy compared to how it would have been in wind free conditions

In reply to Lion Bakes:
I'm from Yorkshire and I'm worried I'll have to hand my Yorkshire Man Card in. I'm a bit nesh now I'm getting older and can afford fancy technical clothing

There are two objective facts:

1) the current air temperature
2) the current air speed

These two facts can be combined to create a 'windchill temperature' for a naked person where the rate of heat loss from the naked person is the same at the same windchill temperature regardless of the air temperature and air speed. This windchill temperature can be normalised to a wind speed of zero - so if the windchill temperature is -10 C, then the naked person feels the same heat loss rate at 10 C and zero wind or 5 C and some wind.

All of which everybody is fine with.

Given that people don't climb naked, or with whatever assumptions the calculation is done by whoever has generated the windchill temperature, the windchill temperature is not correct for a climber (certainly not for a climber wearing windproof clothing). A climber entirely ensconced in windproof fabric would feel (almost) no wind chill effect at all.

Consequently saying at 'the wind chill temperature is -15 C' is irrelevant for a climber - it is highly unlikely that the climber will have the same rate of heat loss that they would at -15 C in still air. Consequently while it might be _qualitatively_ useful, it is _quantitatively_ hideously inaccurate.

I understand the point about exposed flesh but having a little bit of exposed flesh feeling the wind is not the same as the whole body feeling the wind; the warm windproof-protected core should keep the hands (for example) warmer than you would expect from that windchill temperature.

It's not that windchill doesn't exist, just that a 'windchill temperature' will always be an overestimate of the cooling rate for a windproof-protected climber.

In reply to afx22:

If any clothing system can keep me dry and comfortable postholing with a winter rucsac on, please let me know! A couple of things I find help:

- As others have send, in general wear as little as you can to keep you comfortable. I find a couple of long sleeve baselayers and a pertex jacket is enough for all but the coldest days when slogging up hill.
- When you do start to feel a little cool, try adding a buff and hat and put up your hood. Amazing how this can warm you back up and much more convenient than adding jackets.
- When you start genuinely feeling the above is not enough, that's when you can take your nice dry fleece and shell out of your bag. This works well if you're just about to hit a ridge or something where your output is a bit lower. Extra brave points for changing base layers in the open.
- It's not always possible if in a group or you need to get a move on, but dropping your pace just a little bit can be enough to rein in the sweating.

For me the bit that stuck out in your original post is the soaked underlayers; every clothing system can be overwhelmed if you work hard enough, so I find the easiest way to manage it is keep my own sweating under control. IMO the latest shell won't help with that.

In reply to Taurig:

I should have said that I always add and remove a beanie and gloves to manage my temperature. That's normally the easy win, as is mucking around with opening and closing zips. My mate certainly benefitted from pit zips whereas my hard shell doesn't have them.

Saturday was interesting in that when sheltered, base layer and shardhell worked fine but when exposed to the wind, it was too cold to handle. It's the first time I've had to resort to using goggles other than when snowboarding.

The more I think about it, the more I realise I'm looking for some thing that will work across the widest range of temps in that sub zero with windchill type window. That's especially difficult bearing in mind that I like to push the pace.

I'm keen to reduce the amount of times I need to add and remove layers.

Maybe slowing down at times is the answer but it doesn't seem like as much fun