UKC

The route setting at the wall I use most frequently (which recently, unfortunately, hasn't been as frequently as I would have liked) seems to have taken a distinct change in direction in the last few months. There seem to be many more routes which require outrageous rockovers and/or have huge gaps in the sequence of holds (the two often go together) - and I say this as a six-footer, albeit with a miniscule ape index. Before this change the challenges used to be much more oriented towards fiendishly cunning sequences, and holds that were sufficiently small, unhelpfully shaped or awkwardly located to force you to think hard about how to use them, rather than simply having to pull hard to use them. Basically, too many routes at the moment seem to be set to rely on strength rather than skill.

There also seems to be a problem with the grading at the moment. You're always going to get one or two routes which feel a bit 'out', but the other night we found a 5+ which felt ridiculously hard (to the extent that we both gave up on it) compared to the 6a on the adjacent panel, which we agreed between us was pretty much benchmark for the grade, at least as we are used to them at that wall. (Full disclosure: this wall operates a consensus grading process, so there were obviously enough people that agreed with the 5+ grade for it to have stuck. And I realise that this potentially opens up another debate about the usefulness of consensus grading within a restricted community and a largely self-selecting population of people who comment...)

Having not been going there as regularly as I used to I don't really know whether these changes have arisen because of a change in staff, or even in the ownership of the wall. But they are making me consider whether I want to renew my membership when it comes due in April, because I don't enjoy climbing there as much as I used to.

So, having got the extended whinge off my chest, I'd be interested to hear what other people either like or dislike about the route setting 'philosophies' that they've encountered at different climbing walls.

And I'd like to emphasise that this is about climbing walls - you know, indoor climbing facilities that people pay to use when outdoor climbing isn't a realistic proposition - that's why I posted it in the Climbing Walls forum. So anyone tempted to post some smart-alec comment about how when you're climbing outside you just deal with what's there needn't bother, thanks all the same. After all, everyone has crags they enjoy climbing on and others that don't light their fire in the same way - but that's really not the same debate as this one.

In reply to Martin W:

Imaginative use of small footholds rather than making things harder by missing them out.

eg like a real cliff

In reply to Martin W:

I seem to think that the routes which I like most indoors happen to have at least one of the following:

1) Use of holds in multiple directions and readjustments, i.e. a complex hold that you could probably both pull down on, or sideways, or as an undercut.

2) Variety of moves, I don't really enjoy climbing the same move 20 times in a row. Maybe sometimes it's decent training, but I just don't enjoy it. I think this is particularly important for overhanging 20 meter 6a jug ladders. Normally it's a left-right-left-right jug ladder, and I don't consider this good setting, although to be fair it must be very hard to be imaginative and still stick to a 6a grade if the route is very overhanging.

3) Memorable crux moves:

I like this because you have to climb the tricky moves perfectly, and then do a trickier crux. You generally have to be a decent climber of the grade to climb these routes. I remember my first indoor 7b+ contained some 6c/6c+ climbing into a V5ish boulder problem which had many foot/hand options, memorable and I still remember the sequence!

I also think that good route setting does not have the following (this is just my taste of course):

1) Sandbagging! :P Normally it comes out of lack of testing of the routes.

I don't really enjoy jumping on a 6b, expecting a 6b but then realizing that hold size and the distance between them correspond more to 6c+ and you're not yet warm for this grade.

Clear soft touches which are 1-2 grades easier than advertised are a bit annoying as well.


2) Clipping the 2nd or 3rd quickdraw is hard - don't really feel like risking decking out indoors. Enough said.

3) Clipping the anchor is hard - I guess nobody enjoys falling with a pile of slack when the route is basically done?

In reply to Martin W:

Inaccurate/inconsistent grading is annoying especially when you are looking for warm ups. The very first route I did at my new wall was labelled 5b. It's since been upgraded to 6b. I gave up some time ago trying to make sense of it, I now just apply the principle that there are only two grades that matter. Those you can get up and those you can't. I expect some inconsistencies but when one person says something is 4c an another says it's 6a+ there is something badly awry and there lies the problem with consensus grading. I'm pretty tuned into the grade I'm climbing at the time and there is probably a case to be made for people in that position to be the "de facto" graders for a given grade. Some one whose limit is 6c is more finely tuned to judge if something is 6a or 6c but less qualified to judge 7a against 7b and 4c against 5a although the latter should in theory be possible. The problem is that there is too much ego involved in many cases.

Al

In reply to Martin W:

I wholeheartedly dislike the movement towards using volumes for everything.
1) They are all the same, wherever you go. There is no variation from one wall to another and so you end up climbing the same type of routes, grabbing large triangles
2) They got old very quickly and lose their texture making them rank to use
3) They always use them for feet at low points, meaning you have a large shelf like object to hit on the way down
4) They get in the way of every other route. If you set a route using them on one panel, every other route on that panel will also use it, and then you can go back to No 1)
5) Routes become so removed from actual climbing that they don't hold interest for a lot of climbers (I admit that the current 'comp' style is popular at the moment with others)

In reply to Martin W:


The other day did a F5 which was F6a+. Some guy ran over to tell us after my mate had lobbed off it - which was kind of him, although we knew already. Brilliant route though - the joint best I've ever done on a climbing wall. Just wasn't graded properly.

Have done a wall F6b which turned out to be F7a/7a+ - no wonder it felt a bit hard!

Have done a wall F6c which turned out to be F7b+. Apparently the setter could only do the first six moves - but it still got F6c. Go figure! As a colleague of hers' chuckled, "What on earth was she thinking?"

The best till last. Ian Vickers got on an enduro traverse set by a mate (who must remain nameless!) Unsurprisingly Mr Vickers flashed it (well, cos he's one of the best UK onsighters ever). Asked what grade it was. Back came, "F7b," as deadpan as you like. Quoted Mr Vickers, "It felt a bit harder than that." Indeed it would - cos it was actually F8b!! Out of about 60 moves, there was lots of English 6c and an eternity of English 6b. Although I could do every move, linking 'em might have taken about 200 years. Amazing that Ian Vickers flashed it - loads of blind alleys, chances to get wrong-handed. But that's how good he is.

Sandbag city!

Mick

In reply to La benya:

I think the creative use of volumes really opens up interesting problems on flat panels. I really like problems that climb entirely on volumes. I think these are relatively rare, as they do require a lot of space. The walls I go to have quite a variety of volumes from terrible core slopey things to wonderfully textured Fontainebleau styled texture. I do agree with your comment about low volumes though, but I've seldom seen this .

In reply to GridNorth:

couldn't agree more.

The new head setter at my normal wall puts up routes then slaps on a grade card without anyone (him included) having actually climbed the route as a route. Certainly in one instance he reckoned 6b+. There was a horrendous move going from clip 2 to 3 which was downright dangerous and the route was easily 6c. I was the first person to climb it and immediately reported this back to him. The result? Absolutely nothing. It fell to another route setter a couple of weeks later to off his own bat add a new foothold to tame the dangerous move a bit.

Another setter is from a bouldering background. He found that he was 'allowed' to set hard moves for the first 2 clips a because the centre has a rubber crumb floor and it is ok to boulder up to 3m above such a surface. Which is all fine and good, but if I'm climbing routes that what I expect them to be - not terror filled scarefests with real ground-fall potential, esp as a fall like that whilst attached to a rope is likely to be very different from jumping off a boulder problem.

In reply to Martin W:

I know the wall.
I'm neither 6ft or strong and my grade has improved this year with only a once weekly visit. Perhaps as you say you haven't been visiting often enough?
whats the 5+ you are referring to?

In reply to Martin W:

As long as the grading is consistent throughout that wall, it doesn't really matter what is written against the route, within reason. I climb at three walls. One is consistent and about spot on (they have a certain amount of consensus grading!). One is consistent and about a letter grade easier (The setters are always ready to listen and adjust within the walls standards if required). The third is softly graded up to 5+/6a and then quite hard from 6b, leaving a large improvement required to bridge the gap (they know so much more than their customers that the grade stays no matter how far out of line with the rest of the wall it is!)
I hate ladder routes (another wall I used to visit) where routes are made harder by putting in smaller and smaller holds, but are all the same moves.
My favourite wall (I am a wuss with arthritic fingers so climb indoors on bad weather days) have a variety of setters, who each have their own style, so their is a good variety of techniques required, a consensus grading, which is taken seriously, and the grades are consistent throughout the wall, which is what is needed, so I know that all the routes of a particular grade are that grade, and the step up to the next grade is consistent.
Roll on the warm dry weather and let me get outside away from the wall and this computer!

In reply to Mike-W-99:

I also know the wall...

Over this autumn/winter there have been a fair few easier routes that you think will a warm up and are a bit on evil side. E.g. small nasty crimps on 5/5+ that cold fingers don't like or big stretchy moves that cold muscles don't like. I suspect the consensus grading system and good climbers basically under grading stuff may explain this. FWIW, the grading of harder climbs (6b and above) seems to be more or less okay. I can't think of any that are more than half a grade out and that could just be down to what suits my style of climbing.

I just try to remember which of the easy routes aren't really good warm ups and avoid them until later in the night.

Overall the route setting also seems to have got more bouldery with more "stopper" type moves rather than consistent grading over a single route. I'm guessing that's just down to a change in route setters and them coming from more bouldering backgrounds.

In reply to Martin W:

Having recently moved to Germany, I was horrified to discover the extent to which big slopers, powerful moves and compression featured heavily amongst the setting.

'This can't be beneficial outdoors' 'aren't all the crags round here pockets?'

Four months later my boulder level has increased by a full letter grade, I've had no injuries and my finger strength has gone through the roof (granted due partly to a more structured fingerboard regime, but also probably from having to open hand everything).

Now, I like delicate, technical movement as much as the next man, but I've also come to like explosive, powerful movement. It's balanced out my climbing and made me realise how big of a gap I actually had in that area. It's amazing how transferable the body tension gained from steep overhangs is to vertical crimping.

All that said, shit setting is possibly the most awful thing about indoor climbing.

In reply to Martin W:

I think variety is the biggest thing. It's fun to have some interesting knacky routes with cunning sequences and unusual moves, but it's also good to have some that are just about strong fingers and accurate technique. It's also bad if all the hard moves are variations on the same thing - Harlow wall used to have a thing where almost all their of holds were big jugs, so about the only way that the routesetters could make a route hard was by setting a big reach through an overhang off a low, undercut handhold, and that got old pretty fast. I think they've improved a bit recently.

The other important thing for me is consistency within routes. If you've only got limited wall space then routes that are trivially easy apart from a nails crux are a waste, since anyone who has a chance at getting the route at all won't get any value out of the easy bits.

In reply to Martin W:

Long, flowing, sustained pumpiness with the odd poor shake out. After all, I'm there to train (if I wanted stopper moves to train pure power or technique I'd be in the bouldering room).

In reply to zmv:


Same here. That's actually what really wears me down with the horrendous rockovers: an entire route which consists of nothing but. There are other ways to make a climb difficult...

In reply to Mike-W-99:


Hmm, not sure how, unless my description of what's changed recently struck a chord somewhere? Do I know you?


I realise that will make a difference, but to counter that I'd say that the 6a I referred to above felt like a textbook example of that grade at this wall based on all the years I have been going there. (Apart from anything else, I got up it! Though not with the same alacrity as I would have done if I was managing to go more often than I am at the moment. I've not been well. OK, that's an feeble excuse...)


Panel 15.

In reply to Fiona Reid:


I'd agree with that.

I actually don't mind routes which are consistently hard and then, just when you could use a bit of a let up, the hold that you thought looked like a reasonably comfortable semi-jug turns out to be a horrible sloper. I will inwardly curse the route setter for being evil, but I think it's legitimate. But the ones that just leave me wondering how on earth you're even supposed to make further progress, let alone whether or not you can physically manage it, are just annoying IMO.


They'll be insisting we start with our arses on the ground next...

Something else I've noticed recently at this wall is that some of the routes just seem to peter out: you get to a hold about 18" short of the maillon and there's nothing more. It's as if the setter just got bored and gave up!

In reply to Martin W:
An off-the-wall question: Is a "good" route what you want from an indoor wall?

E.g. I love to lead a good, delicate slab climb indoors, but slabs are very rare as they take up a lot of space, and I'm not convinced they're great training...

Conversely, a jug ladder feels very artificial and is not particularly mentally engaging, but having at least one such route set allows you training options...

I enjoy volumes when they present interestingly 3d climbing, but the triangular ones wreck my hands, and the problems often feel very 'indoor' in style...

I literally couldn't give a fk about debating the grades, as the indoor/outdoor and gym to gym translations are often very artificial. But, I do sympathise when egos are bruised.

One thing people don't do enough of, in my (limited) experience, is making up their own routes/problems. Not so easy on rope routes (though still possible), but I think it really enlivens indoor bouldering. I usually go to a very small gym and you run out of things to do quite quickly, even though problems change every month. Not only does making up your own routes give you more to do, but it's fun in itself. Plus, it gets past all those (maybe justified, maybe not) moans about the routesetters' physical attributes and whether or not a problem is sandbagged.

What I enjoy when I set my own routes is making really big moves - e.g. requiring dynamic moves, big laybacks or rockovers, confidence, precision, and a good rhythm. It's also great if you can mix up delicacy, balance and physicality, though it doesn't always happen.

I also make up routes with my partner who's just beginning to climb to give her more options - and more interesting options. Many of the lowest grade routes (called "V0-V2" but actually probably "ladder" to V1) at the gym I go to are very dull, up and down jugs, and seem to have been set without thought. Taking a "V3" and adding an extra hold or two tends to produce something more interesting that she can explore and enjoy. It also means we get into more of a dialogue about the bouldering, rather than doing it separately.

re above comments where people don't like soft touches and sandbags...

Surely grade has nothing to do with route setting! It's just a label. An absurdly hard 6b isn't badly set, it's badly graded. Call it a 6c/+ if you want but it has no bearing on the quality of the setting.

In reply to Martin W:

I now see which wall this thread is about........ Same thing the last time I went there years ago. Fortunately there's a much bigger and better wall with generally superb route setting not all that far away!

In reply to Martin W:

I like it when the holds are a funky colour.

In reply to Owen W-G:

Grades are a feel good thing, no one likes their perception of their abilities to be questioned. Also you like to know your personal best was real too.

For the record for those further up the thread, outside 5+ is actually quite tough and they aren't always a big hold ladder. Let's not expect this jug ladder indoors too much. Grade creep is real!

Variety and sustained climbing make a good route imo. I also have sympathy with route setters, they don't have stacks of time, materials or a formula to apply to that route which is quite possibly above, or well below their personal grade bracket.

Repetitive routes or moves in a set is poor imagination or experience by the setter. But we all have a style/ bias. Let's not ask for homogeneity between sets - that'd be really boring!

And finally, if the facility isn't what you want, tell someone, and then if it doesn't improve, their profit margins will reflect this in time.

Can anyone tell I've had a grumble of a day which has carried over? Lol.

In reply to Martin W:


Sounds like you have been alienated.

In reply to MischaHY:


Extremely interesting. I've long assumed that big slopers, powerful moves and compression wouldn't help me in the least with crimping. Like you, I've started on a fingerboard and feel my fingers are getting stronger (though it's too early to tell on the crag). But I've been recently been wondering whether trying bigger, more powerful moves (which I'm crap at) is the other half of the equation. From what you're saying, it sounds as though it may be.

Mick

In reply to GridNorth:

I "self-grade" too;
Anything I can climb is a 5, anything else is ludicrous. Works for me.

In reply to Martin W:

From your description it sounds very much like they've changed their primary routesetter. All routesetters tend to have their own distinct style. After spending a fair bit of time at my local wall I think I could probably tell which routesetter made which route just from the style of the setting. So maybe you're just not used to the new style of setting yet. It will probably feel more difficult to begin with - more so if the routes are more conservatively graded. However it might also be that the routesetter is simply not that good: lacks imagination, has limited experience climbing outdoors, or just doesn't know how to route set well. I think good route setting is definitely an art.

In terms of big gaps in the holds have you seen how shorter climbers get on, particularly women and young climbers? If short climbers don't have a problem then it might mean it's more a problem with your technique/strength. More practice will make you better at the new style. Not a bad thing. But if they're really struggling then that points to shoddy setting. So probably to see what others think before complaining to the manager. There are lots of excellent route setters around so there's no reason they shouldn't switch to someone else if the customers aren't keen on the setting.


The routesetting I like best is varied in the style of climbing but consistent in terms of difficulty - ie. the crux isn't miles harder than the rest of the route, if you can discern a crux at all that is. Routesetting that really makes you think is good too. My local bouldering wall, THe Climbing Works, is excellent for this. But I think that style of setting is hard to create and most other walls the climbing is mostly fairly obvious. I also like it when there's sufficient footholds. Lazy routesetting can be identified when you've constantly only got one foothold for your feet.

In reply to Kevster:


No. I thought they were all really good points.

In reply to Owen W-G:


This is very often overlooked and it's really annoying. Even for an experienced route setter, it's hard to get the grade right when it's not near their operating level. If you get a world class setter that climbs 8c to set some 6a/c top ropes, it's not surprising that it's off by a plus or a full letter grade. Imagine being asked to tell the difference between a 2a+ and a 2b, then someone getting irate that you can't tell the difference. It's just silly. They are just meant as a rough estimate so you can safely warm up/ get on something at a suitable level for what you're after. It's all relative, and shouldn't have a bearing on peoples opinion on how good route setting is.
It's either a good interesting varied route, or a boring plod.

In reply to Martin W:

I detest anything and everything that is in the place where my project should be, and was up until a couple of days ago. but isn't any more when I walk through the door thinking "right, tonight's the night"

In reply to Robert Durran:


Absolutely.

I don't want routes to be 'technical' - i.e. really hard to read. I want to get on with it, but I don't want it so boring that I don't even need to look where I'm going (left-right-left-right ladder). This is quite a fine balance as I do like routes that are much easier on the redpoint (i.e. require accuracy), I just hate stuff that's pointless squirming around in corners, or using a series of unhelpfully positioned footholds and sidepulls that all face the wrong way, as doing that is not helpful for PE/stamina building. It's also nothing like the outdoor equivalent and is just a unique form of climbing that I can't see translating to anything on rock.

The odd shake-out is important: I don't want all the holds to be really bad, so every clip is an energy-sapping nightmare. At my level I want the shake-outs to be pretty decent! A good hold to clip from after a hard bit makes a route not just easier but also more fun, allowing you to break down the route into sections and practice the ability to recover on steep ground.

I'm asking a lot, but my wall generally has a lot of stuff that works well for me.

As for grades, I prefer things to be on the sandbaggy side. Makes me train harder and can make outdoor grades feel OK. Flattering grades are for those without the ability to delay gratification.

In reply to stp:

Not really, there are about 8 with the routes fairly evenly spread.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


It's equivalent to a similarly shit, awkward, unpleasant route outdoors!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I like squirmimg around in corners. One of my favourite outside routes is Cataclysm at Wildcat. A classic corner to squirm in!

In reply to stp:

I don't know if you used to go to The Edge before Percy left to open the Climing Works? The route setting back then was really excellent. I have to agree about the quality of setting at The Climbingworks, not surprising really given who the setters are. The wasp circuit has been consistently challenging through numerous resets, and always demoralising to see Ron using it as a warm up
Do you ever get over to the Wave in the Foundry? A totally different approach, but still brilliant.

In reply to Martin W:

What's the problem with naming the wall?

In reply to Removed Usergilesf:


no need - everyone that goes there knows that it's that wall

In reply to Martin W:

Another one from me:

I quite dislike it when a wall eliminates features or aretes for their routes. I definitely don't like climbing eliminates indoors. :p

In reply to Kevster:

Aye, I think you're right to have sympathy with route setters - it seems a long, tiring job, and many climbing wall staff seem to be on zero hour contracts earning a pittance...

As for grades, feeling good, personal bests: I think it's important that people should develop their own sense of how they're climbing, rather than trying to "measure" it against the fluctuations of grades. Firstly, because if you go climb or boulder outside, especially on grit, you're just not going to get features like those inside. So - any comparison falls apart immediately. Second, because judging your climbing by a "personal best" grade is a road to self-delusion. Maybe it was a soft one, maybe you were having a good day, but I think it's better to measure yourself by what you can consistently onsight or climb in a controlled way, rather than by the high-tide mark. Overall, I think people should own their own climbing, rather than relying on grades or others' judgments. Of course grades are useful, but what is the "no way that's Xb!" moan about other than seeking confirmation and approval by others, having "lost face"?

On a different note, some walls are getting super expensive, no? The other day I went to Kendal and it was £21 for my partner and I (i.e two entrances)! That's the best part of 3 hours' pay for many people! I love how big the place is, but at other walls you can climb for a month for £30, so route setting quality ends up quite low on the priority list...

In reply to Martin W:

I like a route which punishes the obvious.
Holds are seemingly improbable but just about all there but there is a feck off great hold of glory that lures you in like the Q.I klaxon. If you go near this hold you will be mis-matched, feet off and stressed and unable to proceed. I love fooling for those.

In reply to Martin W:
>Panel 15.
Don't be too concerned about that 5+ as i was told it was mainly set by a work experience youngster only in for a few days and so not surprisingly the route feels totally different when it was their first attempt. Once you know to palm and smear lots on the bridging, it is within the grade, well near enough!! Why they left it though .....

Speaking to setters, behind the scenes they don't have as much time as they would like and my guess this is reflected in style and consistency of routes. If you've not been a lot recently, this year has been very busy with lots of classes, instruction, new year's resolutions, gift cards, etc, taking time up for the staff when some would have been setting routes.

Irrespective, the consensus grading has been all over the place for many months/yrs? and this needs to be addressed. Regular regulars though know which routes by word of mouth are way out an adjust their training schedule accordingly.

Hopefully it will all settle down very soon. However, did you put feedback in the book? Without that, it will take longer to get sorted.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

From a pure endurance training perspective I get this but I think that actually it's better to have a few awkward moves - otherwise it's really easy to just flow and then be thrown by awkward moves outdoors. I agree on slightly sandbaggy though, I'd always rather err on the side of caution. Hard 6a/7a/8a is better than soft 6b/7b/8b.

In reply to Martin W:

Not really routesetting, but very similar coloured routes on the same panel is a real ballache.
Grey/ White, Pink/ red, Orange/ Red, Green/Yellow.

In reply to eltankos:


Funnily enough I find black and white the most problematic. It is often difficult to tell whether a hold is black covered in chalk or white covered in boot rubber.

In reply to eltankos:

Or two routes the same colour on adjacent panels. Or even routes of the same colour on panels n and n+2 which actually wander into close proximity on panel n+1. Very basic route setting mistakes IMO.

Robert: I find it difficult to discern the colour of a great many holds when the top is covered in black climbing shoe rubber. The plaintive cry of "Is that hold mine?" can often be heard wafting down towards my belayer...

In reply to Martin W:

You can just say it's alien rock. I'm sure they'll appreciate the feedback

In reply to C Witter:


I think there are differences, certainly between setting routes and boulders. Route setting does look like a lot of hard work, hanging in a harness all day, pulling up hold etc. and quite a lonely job too. Though I think the pay is fairly decent: £100 per day and upwards.

When I see them setting at the climbing works it's often done as a team effort and looks quite fun - at least for the harder circuits. Seems like they at least get quite a bit of climbing done, testing all the problems. And I think all the setters are staff so do have contracts.

In reply to stp:

At the small wall where I usually go, the staff pay isn't awful (c.£12), but they're almost all on zero hours contracts (so... no sick pay, etc.). The same people do everything there. I guess big walls versus small walls is part of the difference.

In reply to Martin W:

I dislike not being able to clip at waist level from reasonable holds.
I hate it when no thought has been given to the rope line .
I like routes that get slightly harder the higher you get.
If the grading is consistent and I am failing on a route then I know I have to think harder; which provides added interest.
I have noticed that setting like climbing is a skill that takes time to get good at.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I have that problem too, climbed a black 6b+ A few weeks ago,cruised up it no problem, got back down happy as Larry and said to my mate" God, that was so easy" to which he replied "I'm not surprised, half the footholds you used were white.

In reply to Mick Ward: you're probably really good at crimping. But I've also benefited from climbing routes with powerful moved between rounded holds - you get strong without getting hurt. Learning a new way to climb has been fun too.

My local wall has locally added a section of what can be called old mans routes. Slightly overhanging, reachy, teeny weeny crimps and a little bit sequency.

In reply to wbo:

Crimping and smearing - I'm a two trick pony! Am slowly getting better at slopers, courtesy of a Beastmaker. Agree, I could benefit a lot from big moves between rounded holds. One problem is I'm weak; but turn this round and it's gains to be made. Another problem (ridiculous I know) is that 50 years of soloing has left me terrified of exactly these moves - bonkers when you've got a rope on and you're on a sport route.

You're right - I need to get on big moves between rounded holds. As Pete Livesey said all those years ago, "We all work our strengths; we really should be working our weaknesses." Bless him, as ever he was right.

Mick