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Just received a FREE BeUp device from Climb magazine, came with the subscription.
Not ueed it yet. Looks the same as a Petzle Reverso.
In my option none are as good as the Edelrid MagaJul. Self locking is a far more useful feature than being able to belay in guide mode. But I'm not a guide. Can't see the point. On multi pitch you have to rearrange it when your partner leads through.
Not ueed it yet. Looks the same as a Petzle Reverso.
In my option none are as good as the Edelrid MagaJul. Self locking is a far more useful feature than being able to belay in guide mode. But I'm not a guide. Can't see the point. On multi pitch you have to rearrange it when your partner leads through.
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In reply to PaulTanton:
I will have it, Paul
The guide mode can be good for bringing up two seconds at once or having a snack whilst belaying.
TBH I normally use a BD atc xp for trad ( but only very occasionally in guide mode ) and an BD atc normal for sport.
The guide plate can also be used for a bit of rope climbing if needed.
I will have it, Paul
The guide mode can be good for bringing up two seconds at once or having a snack whilst belaying.
TBH I normally use a BD atc xp for trad ( but only very occasionally in guide mode ) and an BD atc normal for sport.
The guide plate can also be used for a bit of rope climbing if needed.
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In reply to Rick Graham:
I can see why you'd do it, just not convinced it's such a useful feature. Guess it works well on bolted belays.
I'd prefer to belay off my harness. Yeah, old school
I can see why you'd do it, just not convinced it's such a useful feature. Guess it works well on bolted belays.
I'd prefer to belay off my harness. Yeah, old school
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In reply to PaulTanton:
There's been plenty of discussion about the Mega Jul's merits and demerits, personally after using it in its various modes I think it does the job of a tube belay plate and a Gri Gri in a reasonably good manner but nothing in an excellent manner.
There's been plenty of discussion about the Mega Jul's merits and demerits, personally after using it in its various modes I think it does the job of a tube belay plate and a Gri Gri in a reasonably good manner but nothing in an excellent manner.
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In reply to PaulTanton and others:
I'd have to say that I'm not a fan of multi-function belay devices. Pretty much every device that I've ever used that has attempted to cater for multiple modes of operation or a wide range of rope diameters has had really significant short comings.
I'm broadly in agreement with you Paul about guide mode. It is over hyped (and over-used) by some and regularly misused by a minority. The only really decent guide mode device ever produced is the Kong GiGi because it doesn't need to also work as a normal belay device.
Equally, there are loads of great devices that are superb for climbing wall use but are potential death traps in the event of a genuine factor 2 fall.
Another example is the GriGri 2 which is far from an unqualified success. It has definite corrosion and wear problems and is less easy to use than the original. For most climbers an original GriGri (with a Freino krab) would actually work far better.
About the only thing that's certain is that anyone who blindly advocates their choice of belay device as amazing is probably wrong.
I'd have to say that I'm not a fan of multi-function belay devices. Pretty much every device that I've ever used that has attempted to cater for multiple modes of operation or a wide range of rope diameters has had really significant short comings.
I'm broadly in agreement with you Paul about guide mode. It is over hyped (and over-used) by some and regularly misused by a minority. The only really decent guide mode device ever produced is the Kong GiGi because it doesn't need to also work as a normal belay device.
Equally, there are loads of great devices that are superb for climbing wall use but are potential death traps in the event of a genuine factor 2 fall.
Another example is the GriGri 2 which is far from an unqualified success. It has definite corrosion and wear problems and is less easy to use than the original. For most climbers an original GriGri (with a Freino krab) would actually work far better.
About the only thing that's certain is that anyone who blindly advocates their choice of belay device as amazing is probably wrong.
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In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
I've seen a couple of nasty accidents with a GriGri. Convinced me not to use one. Quite a few years ago I held a mate when he fell off a route. I was using a, worn, BD ATC. I suffered a couple of burns on my hands and it convinced me to update my device. I've held several meadium/long falls with a megaJul. It's such a safe device. Locks off a treat. A little bit tight to release on a fat rope but you soon get used to it. Yes I know you don't always want a hard catch, but you can't have it always
I've seen a couple of nasty accidents with a GriGri. Convinced me not to use one. Quite a few years ago I held a mate when he fell off a route. I was using a, worn, BD ATC. I suffered a couple of burns on my hands and it convinced me to update my device. I've held several meadium/long falls with a megaJul. It's such a safe device. Locks off a treat. A little bit tight to release on a fat rope but you soon get used to it. Yes I know you don't always want a hard catch, but you can't have it always
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In reply to PaulTanton:
Your Megajul does guide mode as well! I've used mine to bring up two seconds simultaneously, which is about the only time I've used it in guide mode.
Your Megajul does guide mode as well! I've used mine to bring up two seconds simultaneously, which is about the only time I've used it in guide mode.
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In reply to PaulTanton:
I prefer the Grigri 2 to the Grigri as it feeds better but there is definitely more wear on it already. Still use a belay plate for trad and use the guide mode if we are climbing multi pitch as a 3 as it can speed things up.
Think I will get the wild country revo when it comes out-looks spot on and idiot proof. Use it for indoors and sport. I would quite happily continue using my Grigri 2 but my daughter has "borrowed" it so need a replacement!
I prefer the Grigri 2 to the Grigri as it feeds better but there is definitely more wear on it already. Still use a belay plate for trad and use the guide mode if we are climbing multi pitch as a 3 as it can speed things up.
Think I will get the wild country revo when it comes out-looks spot on and idiot proof. Use it for indoors and sport. I would quite happily continue using my Grigri 2 but my daughter has "borrowed" it so need a replacement!
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In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Unless it's a Click-Up
> About the only thing that's certain is that anyone who blindly advocates their choice of belay device as amazing is probably wrong.
Unless it's a Click-Up
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In reply to PaulTanton:
I'll wager you are not a winter climber or a roll-up smoker.
> Self locking is a far more useful feature than being able to belay in guide mode. But I'm not a guide. Can't see the point.
I'll wager you are not a winter climber or a roll-up smoker.
Post edited at 21:47
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In reply to PaulTanton:
There is an issue though, well discussed a while back on here; it can fail (when you need it most!) in a high factor (2?) fall when the rope stretches and becomes thin enough that the locking krab can't pinch it.
> I've held several meadium/long falls with a megaJul. It's such a safe device. Locks off a treat.
There is an issue though, well discussed a while back on here; it can fail (when you need it most!) in a high factor (2?) fall when the rope stretches and becomes thin enough that the locking krab can't pinch it.
7
It all depends on what sort of climbing you're wanting it for. Personally I'm trad and multipitch when I can get on it the so the atc is the weapon of choice. The Megajul for me is fine as a belayer but horrific when on the sharp end of the rope. Getting lowered down on one of those things is terrifying.
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In reply to elliott92:
Nothing more important in a belay device than making sure your selfie game is on point.
Nothing more important in a belay device than making sure your selfie game is on point.
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In reply to PaulTanton:
How this works, just in case you didn't know
1. second reaches belay and does NOT tie in but simply hangs from the device
2. the belayer takes the belay device off the second's harness, and puts her on belay (i.e. you swap devices each pitch)
3. when she is ready to climb through the new leader dismantles the device she is hanging from and takes it with her
this has several advantages - quick as the second never ties in or unties; the second can't forget to take the device with her as she is tied to it.
> Self locking is a far more useful feature than being able to belay in guide mode. But I'm not a guide. Can't see the point. On multi pitch you have to rearrange it when your partner leads through.
How this works, just in case you didn't know
1. second reaches belay and does NOT tie in but simply hangs from the device
2. the belayer takes the belay device off the second's harness, and puts her on belay (i.e. you swap devices each pitch)
3. when she is ready to climb through the new leader dismantles the device she is hanging from and takes it with her
this has several advantages - quick as the second never ties in or unties; the second can't forget to take the device with her as she is tied to it.
9
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
Purely out of interest have you used the Pivot? I've found it the best of the multi use bunch so far in terms of range of rope diameters, wear and releasability.
Purely out of interest have you used the Pivot? I've found it the best of the multi use bunch so far in terms of range of rope diameters, wear and releasability.
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In reply to David Coley:
Isn't it easier for the second to just lead through ( having collected any gear while remaining belayed) on a simple belay device without any need to change devices. Also avoids need for both climbers to have the same type of device.
(Even if necessary a simple clip in and unclip of second to belay before leading through is not much more time consuming).
I may be missing something however?
Isn't it easier for the second to just lead through ( having collected any gear while remaining belayed) on a simple belay device without any need to change devices. Also avoids need for both climbers to have the same type of device.
(Even if necessary a simple clip in and unclip of second to belay before leading through is not much more time consuming).
I may be missing something however?
In reply to oldie:
Hi,
much I think comes down to the type of route.
I you are sitting on a big ledge then (a) bring up the ropes and pulling them through the belay device is easy, (b) as is stacking them (just put them in a pile), (c) when the second arrives she might not even need to tie in (not best practice) or just clip into something rather loosely.
However, if the route is steeper and the belay a hanging one, or even if you are just standing up, (a) it can be hard work pulling the rope in, as the belay device will be hanging down towards your knees, (b) stacking the rope is also a little more difficult, (c) she will need to tie in very securely and fully weight the anchors.
So, by using guide mode (a) and (b) become easier (might sound minor but on a 12 pitch route it isn't) and (c) possibly faster.
Hi,
much I think comes down to the type of route.
I you are sitting on a big ledge then (a) bring up the ropes and pulling them through the belay device is easy, (b) as is stacking them (just put them in a pile), (c) when the second arrives she might not even need to tie in (not best practice) or just clip into something rather loosely.
However, if the route is steeper and the belay a hanging one, or even if you are just standing up, (a) it can be hard work pulling the rope in, as the belay device will be hanging down towards your knees, (b) stacking the rope is also a little more difficult, (c) she will need to tie in very securely and fully weight the anchors.
So, by using guide mode (a) and (b) become easier (might sound minor but on a 12 pitch route it isn't) and (c) possibly faster.
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In reply to AlH:
Have played with one several times. Definitely a major improvement for lowering but still hard work for two single ropes rather than half ropes where it's great.
> Purely out of interest have you used the Pivot? I've found it the best of the multi use bunch so far in terms of range of rope diameters, wear and releasability.
Have played with one several times. Definitely a major improvement for lowering but still hard work for two single ropes rather than half ropes where it's great.
Post edited at 13:13
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In reply to paul mitchell:
So can belay plates, bowlines, cars, ovens etc....
Just becasue something can be used incorrectly does not make it inhernetly dangerous.
> Grigris can easily be wrongly used and therefore are dangerous.
So can belay plates, bowlines, cars, ovens etc....
Just becasue something can be used incorrectly does not make it inhernetly dangerous.
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In reply to paul mitchell:
That's putting it a bit strongly but I would accept that the GriGri has more potential for misuse than most other devices.
That's putting it a bit strongly but I would accept that the GriGri has more potential for misuse than most other devices.
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In reply to David Coley:
I completely agree with David - and as others have said it very much depends on what climbing you are doing.
I do a lot of multi pitch alpine ( 10 - 25 pitches ) and using a guide plate saves a lot of time and energy, especially when leading in blocks. Sometimes climbing as a three on long multi pitch routes, again I find this a lot easier with a guide plate and can almost match the speed of climbing as a two. It also has other uses within self rescue.
Obviously not so much of a difference on single pitch, shorter multipitch. although it works well on bolted routes.
I completely agree with David - and as others have said it very much depends on what climbing you are doing.
I do a lot of multi pitch alpine ( 10 - 25 pitches ) and using a guide plate saves a lot of time and energy, especially when leading in blocks. Sometimes climbing as a three on long multi pitch routes, again I find this a lot easier with a guide plate and can almost match the speed of climbing as a two. It also has other uses within self rescue.
Obviously not so much of a difference on single pitch, shorter multipitch. although it works well on bolted routes.
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In reply to Gaston Rubberpants:
I agree. Any device can be used incorrectly. For spurt climbing I guess they are fine. I'm mainly a trad climber. Can't see a grigri being much use on the main cliff.
Smoking? Do any Climbers smoke these days?
I agree. Any device can be used incorrectly. For spurt climbing I guess they are fine. I'm mainly a trad climber. Can't see a grigri being much use on the main cliff.
Smoking? Do any Climbers smoke these days?
In reply to Mark Haward:
Hi, I'm a beginner on multipitch. Can you explain the advantages of using a guide plate rather than an Italian hitch? Wouldn't an Italian hitch be quicker?
Hi, I'm a beginner on multipitch. Can you explain the advantages of using a guide plate rather than an Italian hitch? Wouldn't an Italian hitch be quicker?
In reply to The Freewheelin’ Jim182:
You can belay two seconds at the same time quite easily with a guide plate, also the advantage mentioned by David Coley if you're really trying to go quickly. If someone's going to be moving quickly on easy ground and my anchor's bomber I would probably go for an Italian hitch.
You can belay two seconds at the same time quite easily with a guide plate, also the advantage mentioned by David Coley if you're really trying to go quickly. If someone's going to be moving quickly on easy ground and my anchor's bomber I would probably go for an Italian hitch.
In reply to The Freewheelin’ Jim182:
An Italian Hitch with double ropes is possible but very awkward and double ropes are common for UK trad.
An Italian Hitch with double ropes is possible but very awkward and double ropes are common for UK trad.
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In reply to DaveHK:
I would prefer my belayer to be attending to me and doing roll-ups or taking photos. I have been dropped 5 times, seriously as a result of non-attentive belayers. (a few more non-serious ones as well) A belayer should only have one thing in their mind, watching and taking care of their leader/second.
No one gets a second chance to belay me once they have let me have serious drop! There are plenty of attentive belayers around. Funnily the inattentive ones seem to move around climbing partners at an amazing rate.
I would prefer my belayer to be attending to me and doing roll-ups or taking photos. I have been dropped 5 times, seriously as a result of non-attentive belayers. (a few more non-serious ones as well) A belayer should only have one thing in their mind, watching and taking care of their leader/second.
No one gets a second chance to belay me once they have let me have serious drop! There are plenty of attentive belayers around. Funnily the inattentive ones seem to move around climbing partners at an amazing rate.
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In reply to johncook:
My point was that using a plate in guide mode lets you do those things more safely whilst belaying a second. I find it very useful in winter for helping me keep warm by swinging arms, eating and changing gloves etc.
I think i was an early adopter of guide plates back when I did smoke rollies!
> I would prefer my belayer to be attending to me and doing roll-ups or taking photos.
My point was that using a plate in guide mode lets you do those things more safely whilst belaying a second. I find it very useful in winter for helping me keep warm by swinging arms, eating and changing gloves etc.
I think i was an early adopter of guide plates back when I did smoke rollies!
Post edited at 19:25
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In reply to DaveHK:
I agree totally. Most of my climbing is UK single pitch cragging so rarely use my Mega Jul in guide mode but for winter or continental ice I've found it a revelation in belay a second as a guide plate.
Much easier to keep ropes in order, hands warm, photos of partners taken and all the other essentials and it only takes a minute to rearrange back to normal belay plate if they are leading through.
I agree totally. Most of my climbing is UK single pitch cragging so rarely use my Mega Jul in guide mode but for winter or continental ice I've found it a revelation in belay a second as a guide plate.
Much easier to keep ropes in order, hands warm, photos of partners taken and all the other essentials and it only takes a minute to rearrange back to normal belay plate if they are leading through.
In reply to johncook:
Can you remember what belay devices were they using? ('auto' locking or not)
Also, what were the falls like? Would they have held you if not paying attention but with a hand on the break rope?
> I have been dropped 5 times, seriously as a result of non-attentive belayers.
Can you remember what belay devices were they using? ('auto' locking or not)
Also, what were the falls like? Would they have held you if not paying attention but with a hand on the break rope?
In reply to PaulTanton:
Another amazing feature of guide mode is that if you are bringing up a very tired/new climber who needs lots of long rests or is struggling to remove gear etc you can put the weight on the anchor rather than have to hold the rope consistently tight all the time. Yes, you won't be winning any speed ascents on that climb, but at least you can enjoy the view a bit more.
Another amazing feature of guide mode is that if you are bringing up a very tired/new climber who needs lots of long rests or is struggling to remove gear etc you can put the weight on the anchor rather than have to hold the rope consistently tight all the time. Yes, you won't be winning any speed ascents on that climb, but at least you can enjoy the view a bit more.
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In reply to sebastian dangerfield:
Two gri gri, One holding the body which held the cam open, while he used the other hand to get a light! After a good few feet he released the cam and the stop was so hard I may as well have hit something! The second was holding the level open because they though I was moving up, and they were talking to someone and looking at them. I wasn't moving up I was starting a long slide down a slab. The other three were on plates. All three were otherwise engaged, ciggies/sandwiches/bodyspotting whatever. By the time they realised I was off the speed of the rope through their hand/ belay plate was such that I covered a long way before they got control. I don't care what belay device someone uses now. If I look down and they are not looking up at me I get nervous and tend to start looking for another belayer. It is seldom the equipment to blame in a belaying incident and is the user of that equipment.
Two gri gri, One holding the body which held the cam open, while he used the other hand to get a light! After a good few feet he released the cam and the stop was so hard I may as well have hit something! The second was holding the level open because they though I was moving up, and they were talking to someone and looking at them. I wasn't moving up I was starting a long slide down a slab. The other three were on plates. All three were otherwise engaged, ciggies/sandwiches/bodyspotting whatever. By the time they realised I was off the speed of the rope through their hand/ belay plate was such that I covered a long way before they got control. I don't care what belay device someone uses now. If I look down and they are not looking up at me I get nervous and tend to start looking for another belayer. It is seldom the equipment to blame in a belaying incident and is the user of that equipment.
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In reply to johncook:
Jesus! That's quite scary.
Apart from the lever open to pay out one (which is just stupid!) I find the other ones a bit difficult to understand unless they just weren't even holding the break rope?
I've caught unexpected lead falls on a plate, just having a grip of the break rope at all times seems to do the trick - although realise it might not for big fall. Similar on a grigri. I always have the break rope in my hand and thumb (of the same hand) lightly on the device to pay out quicker. It doesn't seem possible that my thumb or my hole hand could hold it open in the event of a fall even if I tried.
Not saying this to question you - just genuinely interested. Possibly your (ex) partners not being quite honest about just how bad their belaying was?
Jesus! That's quite scary.
Apart from the lever open to pay out one (which is just stupid!) I find the other ones a bit difficult to understand unless they just weren't even holding the break rope?
I've caught unexpected lead falls on a plate, just having a grip of the break rope at all times seems to do the trick - although realise it might not for big fall. Similar on a grigri. I always have the break rope in my hand and thumb (of the same hand) lightly on the device to pay out quicker. It doesn't seem possible that my thumb or my hole hand could hold it open in the event of a fall even if I tried.
Not saying this to question you - just genuinely interested. Possibly your (ex) partners not being quite honest about just how bad their belaying was?
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In reply to sebastian dangerfield:
If you use a gri gri according to the instructions you hold the dead rope in your right hand, index finger under the lip and thumb on the base of the lever to feed out rope to a leader. He needed his right hand for his ciggie, so he held the whole body with his left hand which depressed the base of the lever, allowing the rope to run. Two of the belayers also told me it was my fault for not warning them that I was going to fall off! (I won't print my response, but they got a ride home with someone else!)
In all five cases the belayers were not focussed on me, the climber, and so made stupid mistakes. Mistakes are easy to make and can be fatal. I have been lucky with few serious injuries to show.
When I first start climbing with a new partner I climb easier stuff (at my solo level) and spend most of the route watching what they are doing (on the pretext of watching my foot placements so it is not too obvious!) I now do it even with those I trust as anyone can make a mistake, and no belay device is 100% safe, in any configuration, whatever people may say. (Look at the warnings from all the device manufacturers.)
If you use a gri gri according to the instructions you hold the dead rope in your right hand, index finger under the lip and thumb on the base of the lever to feed out rope to a leader. He needed his right hand for his ciggie, so he held the whole body with his left hand which depressed the base of the lever, allowing the rope to run. Two of the belayers also told me it was my fault for not warning them that I was going to fall off! (I won't print my response, but they got a ride home with someone else!)
In all five cases the belayers were not focussed on me, the climber, and so made stupid mistakes. Mistakes are easy to make and can be fatal. I have been lucky with few serious injuries to show.
When I first start climbing with a new partner I climb easier stuff (at my solo level) and spend most of the route watching what they are doing (on the pretext of watching my foot placements so it is not too obvious!) I now do it even with those I trust as anyone can make a mistake, and no belay device is 100% safe, in any configuration, whatever people may say. (Look at the warnings from all the device manufacturers.)
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In reply to johncook:
John, sorry to hear about your experiences, and glad you are alive!
It took me a long time to realise that when I asked people new to me how good their belaying was, they would always answer, "fine", or "good", never, even if they had only been indoors and NEVER held a fall, "not sure", or "ok, I think, but I've only held one small fall". What was happening was a disconnect between what they meant by belaying (paying out the rope), and what I meant (holding onto the string if I pull a block off). Being that the rope will pay out very nicely if you just stack in on the ground carefully, they we not belaying at all, but to be fair to them, they did not know it.
I now approach things in a way that might overcome this confusion and simply ask if they have held many large, unexpected, falls outdoors. Or what the biggest fall they have held is. This seems to both extract the correct information, but also resets the level of expectation about the adventure they are about to commit themselves to as we stand on the edge, about to abseil into the Boulder Ruckle.
I guess the rule is, don't get on the plane if the pilot has never landed a plane.
John, sorry to hear about your experiences, and glad you are alive!
It took me a long time to realise that when I asked people new to me how good their belaying was, they would always answer, "fine", or "good", never, even if they had only been indoors and NEVER held a fall, "not sure", or "ok, I think, but I've only held one small fall". What was happening was a disconnect between what they meant by belaying (paying out the rope), and what I meant (holding onto the string if I pull a block off). Being that the rope will pay out very nicely if you just stack in on the ground carefully, they we not belaying at all, but to be fair to them, they did not know it.
I now approach things in a way that might overcome this confusion and simply ask if they have held many large, unexpected, falls outdoors. Or what the biggest fall they have held is. This seems to both extract the correct information, but also resets the level of expectation about the adventure they are about to commit themselves to as we stand on the edge, about to abseil into the Boulder Ruckle.
I guess the rule is, don't get on the plane if the pilot has never landed a plane.
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In reply to johncook:
I really don't think that you can hold the it open in a fall without using the lever as an actual lever. I guess maybe if he's not holding the break rope at all.
Best of luck with your current belayers!
I really don't think that you can hold the it open in a fall without using the lever as an actual lever. I guess maybe if he's not holding the break rope at all.
Best of luck with your current belayers!
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In reply to sebastian dangerfield:
this is exactly what tends to happen - one hand on the rope to the climber (so slack can be given fast), break rope not held, but instead device clamped in the break hand. Lots of stuff from Petzl on not doing it this way, but still commonly seen.
> I really don't think that you can hold the it open in a fall without using the lever as an actual lever. I guess maybe if he's not holding the break rope at all.Best of luck with your current belayers!
this is exactly what tends to happen - one hand on the rope to the climber (so slack can be given fast), break rope not held, but instead device clamped in the break hand. Lots of stuff from Petzl on not doing it this way, but still commonly seen.
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In reply to David Coley:
That's what I did when I first bought a GriGri in the mistaken idea that it WAS a hands free device. I actually have in my head the idea that it was originally marketed as such but I can't prove it. Nearly everyone I knew who used them did exactly the same. I sold mine when the advice came out not to do so as I found the alternative a bit if a faff. I now use a Click-up, far superior IMO.
Al
That's what I did when I first bought a GriGri in the mistaken idea that it WAS a hands free device. I actually have in my head the idea that it was originally marketed as such but I can't prove it. Nearly everyone I knew who used them did exactly the same. I sold mine when the advice came out not to do so as I found the alternative a bit if a faff. I now use a Click-up, far superior IMO.
Al
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In reply to David Coley:
Will need to make sure my belayers don't do this.
I think the recommendation to only have your thumb on when you need to pay out quickly should be revised. The only reason I've seen given for this is that it may encourage bad habits.
My take is that keeping your thumb on (with the break rope in the same hand) is perfectly safe. Whereas switching to this only when you need to pay out fast might create the temptation juts to let go the break rope and grab the whole device.
Will need to make sure my belayers don't do this.
I think the recommendation to only have your thumb on when you need to pay out quickly should be revised. The only reason I've seen given for this is that it may encourage bad habits.
My take is that keeping your thumb on (with the break rope in the same hand) is perfectly safe. Whereas switching to this only when you need to pay out fast might create the temptation juts to let go the break rope and grab the whole device.
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In reply to johncook:
Hi John, I stopped using a GriGri three years ago having seen too many close calls and a couple of accidents due to incompetent dodgy belaying. I now use a Mammut Smart which is excellent.
> If you use a gri gri according to the instructions you hold the dead rope in your right hand, index finger under the lip and thumb on the base of the lever to feed out rope to a leader. He needed his right hand for his ciggie, so he held the whole body with his left hand which depressed the base of the lever, allowing the rope to run. Two of the belayers also told me it was my fault for not warning them that I was going to fall off! (I won't print my response, but they got a ride home with someone else!)In all five cases the belayers were not focussed on me, the climber, and so made stupid mistakes. Mistakes are easy to make and can be fatal. I have been lucky with few serious injuries to show. When I first start climbing with a new partner I climb easier stuff (at my solo level) and spend most of the route watching what they are doing (on the pretext of watching my foot placements so it is not too obvious!) I now do it even with those I trust as anyone can make a mistake, and no belay device is 100% safe, in any configuration, whatever people may say. (Look at the warnings from all the device manufacturers.)
Hi John, I stopped using a GriGri three years ago having seen too many close calls and a couple of accidents due to incompetent dodgy belaying. I now use a Mammut Smart which is excellent.
Post edited at 15:58
In reply to Christheclimber:
I don't like having to change my grip on the device just because I want to pay rope out faster. I had a Smart for some years and it was excellent but the Click-up was not around at that time. When the Smart started showing signs of wear I changed to the Click-up. I prefer both to the GriGri but I think the Click-up is the slightly better of the two.
Al
I don't like having to change my grip on the device just because I want to pay rope out faster. I had a Smart for some years and it was excellent but the Click-up was not around at that time. When the Smart started showing signs of wear I changed to the Click-up. I prefer both to the GriGri but I think the Click-up is the slightly better of the two.
Al
In reply to GridNorth:
Hi Al, The Mammut Smart took some getting used to but I don't have any problems with it. I've also used a friend's Click-up which I also thought was excellent.
Hi Al, The Mammut Smart took some getting used to but I don't have any problems with it. I've also used a friend's Click-up which I also thought was excellent.
In reply to sebastian dangerfield:
If you press on the base of the lever you can pull rope through for the leader. If you grip the whole device with the left hand you press on the base of the lever, so allowing rope to run through. When they finally realise they are stupid and take their hand off you get an amazingly sudden stop (From petzl site approx. 60% shorter stop than a plate or using the right hand as a brake hand.
One of these belayers still belays and still often lets go with the brake hand to light up. He has only injured, badly, one person, but is constantly on the lookout for new partners as others realise his deficiencies!
If you press on the base of the lever you can pull rope through for the leader. If you grip the whole device with the left hand you press on the base of the lever, so allowing rope to run through. When they finally realise they are stupid and take their hand off you get an amazingly sudden stop (From petzl site approx. 60% shorter stop than a plate or using the right hand as a brake hand.
One of these belayers still belays and still often lets go with the brake hand to light up. He has only injured, badly, one person, but is constantly on the lookout for new partners as others realise his deficiencies!
In reply to johncook:
I understand how it works My point is that I didn't think the human hand is strong enough to hold it open in the event of a fall. Pretty certain it's not if you also have a hand on the break rope, but I guess maybe not if the break rope's not held at all.
I'm going to investigate this weekend. (Not with live partner)
I understand how it works My point is that I didn't think the human hand is strong enough to hold it open in the event of a fall. Pretty certain it's not if you also have a hand on the break rope, but I guess maybe not if the break rope's not held at all.
I'm going to investigate this weekend. (Not with live partner)
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In reply to sebastian dangerfield:
You are correct, if you are holding the break rope. But once the rope is running, not only would the break side be hard to grasp, and you might get burnt, but they will have probably hit the deck by the time you do. If you are holding the strand to the climber, more burning can happen, and as the force on the cam less, holding the break rope and not the cam becomes even more important.
> I understand how it works My point is that I didn't think the human hand is strong enough to hold it open in the event of a fall. Pretty certain it's not if you also have a hand on the break rope, but I guess maybe not if the break rope's not held at all.
You are correct, if you are holding the break rope. But once the rope is running, not only would the break side be hard to grasp, and you might get burnt, but they will have probably hit the deck by the time you do. If you are holding the strand to the climber, more burning can happen, and as the force on the cam less, holding the break rope and not the cam becomes even more important.
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In reply to sebastian dangerfield:
Also remember to use a small 9.xmm rope as is now normal. It will run as I know. Once it grabs it will push the hand, but if held down it doesn't grab but just runs.
Also remember to use a small 9.xmm rope as is now normal. It will run as I know. Once it grabs it will push the hand, but if held down it doesn't grab but just runs.
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In reply to PaulTanton:
I have spent what must be hundreds of hours belaying with a Grin Gri mark 1.
It is stunningly good. There is no way I can stop it locking with my thumb on the cam.
I have tried really hard to make it screw up, but can't. When used as per instructions.
Oh. I didn't care for it abseiling on a brand new 10mm static on Mingulay.
I have spent what must be hundreds of hours belaying with a Grin Gri mark 1.
It is stunningly good. There is no way I can stop it locking with my thumb on the cam.
I have tried really hard to make it screw up, but can't. When used as per instructions.
Oh. I didn't care for it abseiling on a brand new 10mm static on Mingulay.
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In reply to PaulTanton:
I'm with you Paul a Edelrid Megajul do's everything, I use a Clickup for single pitch sport since it 1st came out , but I bought the Megajul for multi pitch sport climbing with a single rope and Trad climbing also.
best thing to do with the freebie is sell it. maybe try sell it to Rick Graham.
I'm with you Paul a Edelrid Megajul do's everything, I use a Clickup for single pitch sport since it 1st came out , but I bought the Megajul for multi pitch sport climbing with a single rope and Trad climbing also.
best thing to do with the freebie is sell it. maybe try sell it to Rick Graham.
In reply to keith sanders:
I think you are right Keith but the problem with devices that do everything is that they tend to not do any of them well. I prefer a Clickup for sport and a DMM Pivot for multi-pitch sport and trad. But if you only want one device, for whatever reason, the Megajule is arguably the best.
Al
I think you are right Keith but the problem with devices that do everything is that they tend to not do any of them well. I prefer a Clickup for sport and a DMM Pivot for multi-pitch sport and trad. But if you only want one device, for whatever reason, the Megajule is arguably the best.
Al
Post edited at 14:09
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