UKC

Margo Hayes has repeated Ramon Julián Puigblanque's La Rambla original, 9a+, at Siurana in Spain. This was the first female ascent of a 9a+ route.

Previously Josune Bereziertu and Ashima Shiraishi have repeated routes in the 9a-9a/+ range, but never a confirmed 9a+ classic like...Read more

In reply to UKC News:

Fantastic effort by a super talented climber.

But is it really the first female 9a+? I remember in an interview with Adam Ondra him saying that it's only 9a+ if you climb it the original way. At that time only Ramon and Ondra had done that: everyone else had done the an easier variant. As I remember this involved a good shake out before the top crux. (Can't remember which mag it was in but it was a high quality online one where you could view all the back isssues as PDFs.)

In reply to stp:
I don't follow these things too closely, but didn't the start get harder a while ago after a hold broke? I recall Enzo Oddo being the first to repeat it in its new state, which I seem to recall made it more confirmed at 9a+. Of course I may be talking half-remembered rubbish.

edit: just remembered I'm getting it confused with Realization at Ceuse, so ignore the above incoherent ramblaing.

In reply to UKC News:

Seriously impressive.

In reply to Shani:

Surely it's ashima. Especially since the grade of this one is disputed

In reply to UKC News:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQ_Hz2WldJb/?taken-by=honngy

This photo really is brilliant, too many emotions to even begin describing.

Fantastic effort!

In reply to stp:

Yeah, there was some debate as to whether a hold was 'in' or not. It's highlighted in this video of Ondra doing the route, see 1m 30secs.

youtube.com/watch?v=xI8nyGa38vE&

In reply to Nath93:

Superb!

In reply to ashtond6:


Who says the grade is disputed? La rambla is the benchmark for 9a+

In reply to Brendan:

That's a tad ridiculous

In reply to Mr Lopez:

My apologies, I mixed it up with era vella

In reply to UKC News:

I feel totally ignorant of high level sport climbing as I don't think I've even seen her name before - so who is she? Where is she from? I'm sure if she was a Brit I would have heard of her, but the name sounds anglo - so American? Canadian?

Top effort anyway. Congrats Ms Hayes!

In reply to UKC News:

Of course we now need to debate a downgrade because a woman has climbed something hard.

Let's get this all squared away, before recognising any merit here.

In reply to allarms:


That is exactly what I was seeing on this thread

In reply to TobyA:

She is American

In reply to Brendan:

But then he uses it for a foot?

In reply to Brendan:



Yeah that would make sense. Have to say it does look very contrived doing it like that, not least because he uses the same hold for his R foot anyway. Not surprised everyone else uses that hold. But in difficulty terms, seeing as that's a big jug right before the crux, I imagine the difference in difficulty would be significant.

In reply to allarms:


Yup! Does it need any discussion though? Just downgrade the thing. It can't possibly be hard.

In reply to stp:

Why don't you go try it and report back?

In reply to allarms:

Of course we now need to debate a downgrade because a woman has climbed something hard.

The same conversation would happen if it gets claimed as the first 9a+ to be on-sighted. i.e. what sequence was used.
All significant ascents should be open to scrutiny/clarification and quite rightly so.

In reply to stp:

Couldn't agree more - it would almost make sense if it was completely out of bounds, but to use it as a foothold but not a handhold seems bizarre. Unless of course AO just didn't need it. Any idea why was it ignored on the first ascent?

In reply to TobyA:

She is part of the team training at the ABC kids gym in Boulder run by Robyn Erbesfield and Didier Rabatou. One of many amazingly talented kids there.

In reply to FactorXXX:

I can see the point about if it was onsighted. You may be right.

I have to say I notice the scrutiny more on female ascents, perhaps that makes me sexist!

In reply to allarms:


I think you're right - but that doesn't make you sexist.

In reply to jon:

Just watched Edu Marin doing it in 2006 - at 8:55 he's having a shake out on that "out of bounds" flake - does that mean he's not done it either? youtube.com/watch?v=qX4L344hW1Q&

I have no idea about the history of that hold or not, just curious..... seems a bit odd to ban a hold, or say you can only use it with your foot, as Ondra did.

Fabulous effort by Margo Hayes though - thanks for reporting UKC! I wonder if there's any footage...

In reply to Jus:

Yeah, it does seem pretty mad.

From memory, I think Ramon missed out the hold on the first ascent, then Edu Marin repeated it using the hold, and there was a bit of a stooshie about whether that meant he had done it properly or not. I think that everyone who repeated it in the coming years used the big hold, except for Ondra.

Please don't take this as a comment on whether Margo climbed 9a+ or not - I was just volunteering some info about the route.

In reply to Phil Murray:

Ramonet himself declared Edu Marin's version was not 9a+... and it seems Adam Ondra agreed.

Back to the main subject, we don't know Margo's version, and we don't have an official confirmation of Bimbaluna and Open your mind direct' grades in order to know who was the first 9a+ ffa (Josune, Ashima or Margo)...Auch

In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:

That's a pretty strong coaching team! Thanks Jonathan.

In reply to UKC News:

Respect

Massive congrats to Margo!

For anyone interested in the history of La Rambla and the various grades put forward, this 2008 interview with the first ascentionist Alex Huber, who did the original version graded 8c+ in 1994, has to be essential reading

http://www.planetmountain.com/en/news/alpinism/alexander-huber-interview.ht...

Basically Open Air was upgraded from 9a to 9a+ by Ondra because the new version of La Rambla stuck at 9a+. Huber's thoughts on this taken from the interview are:

We all know that grades, especially those at the very top, are an enigma. How do you interpret these difficulties?

"Let me give you an example: Adam confirmed my thoughts about "Weisse Rose": it's harder than "La Rambla". It's a fact that La Rambla increased in grade from 8c+ to 9a+. Often people believe this is due to the route extension, but in reality the difficulties do not change substantially with this extension. The difficulty in traversing from the Rambla belay rightwards to finish up "Reina Mora", compared to the crux on La Rambla, is not relevant. To this you also have to add the fact that La Rambla isn't harder than Action Direct and therefore cannot be harder than 9a. In 1995 Action Directe was given 8c+, that is why my routes such as "Weisse Rose" and "La Rambla" had to be given 8c+."

In reply to teddy:


This seems odd given that he never did the full version did he, and had to move the belay lower because he wasn't able to do the full version?

In reply to AJM:
It may be that Huber didn't traverse right to the jug (on La Reina Mora) because to him the route went straight up and did not traverse into La Reina Mora. A bit like saying I'm redpointing Raindogs so I won't traverse right into Chiselling the Dragon at the last bolt, even though its possible to do so (to use a random example from Malham).

So it seems like the full version as envisoned by Alex Huber may not have been climbed to this day.

In reply to allarms:


Er no. The subject is the first female 9a+. But if it's not 9a+ then premise for the whole story is wrong.



The first line of my post said: Fantastic effort by a super talented climber so where's the 'not recognizing merit' from?

In reply to Brendan:


It would seem to me ludicrously contrived to say the hold isn't "in" and completely daft to then say it is "in" for feet. But if* she used the hold and if* using the hold means it's not 9a+ then obviously she hasn't climbed 9a+.

*So both are valid questions.

In reply to pabvidal:

Ha! Yeah, seems to be just assumed that she used the hold. Hope she's just happy to have climbed "La Rambla" with or without the disputed hold but hope she gets to keep the grade too.

In reply to jon:


Bit of a long story... Ha, ha. Huber had 2 projects he bolted back in 1994 (?), they both started up the groove/crack feature, and at the end of it one went right (la reina mora) and the other left a bit and back in to finish in the same lower off as LRM. He climbed the former, but couldn't do the later due to a broken hold, so he put a chain lower down, climbed it to there, and named it La Rambla.

Along came Andrada and Ramonet, who tried to finish La Rambla to the top. They found that from the chains it's possible to do a 2 move traverse right, and then finish up the route more or less direct, as for La Reina Mora. That jug is a hold to the right of LRM, and so Ramon thought that doing a farther move right effectively coming from one route into another and even crossing it in order to grab a jug to have a rest, to then come back left to return to the same holds was not kosher.

In Ondra's video you can see the lower chain around the 1min mark. And then from around 3:20 you can see the sequence comparing it with LRM (here at 3:00 onwards vimeo.com/128137472 )

In reply to Mr Lopez:

OK thanks for that. So in essence, Ramonet considered his body position relative to the hold important - that it doesn't move too far right. Which explains why it's OK to use your foot on the hold but not your hands.

In reply to Robert Durran:


It's pretty much set that hold or not hold the route is 9a+. Easier with it, harder without it, but still 9a+. So unless you have any evidence that the route may be worth less than 9a+ with the hold then it is not a valid question. It's throwing doubts for the sake of it with no backing or argument, or like Trump would say, fake news.

In reply to jon:

Pretty much, yes.

In reply to Jonathan Lagoe - UKC:


She is 19...

In reply to Mr Lopez:


It was a perfectly valid question (whether using the hold reduces the grade) and you have answered it. Thanks. Of course your answer means that my other question (whether or not she used the hold it), is, in the light of your answer to the first, does not affect whether she has climbed 9a+.


No it's not.

In reply to Mr Lopez:

Just to correct the above, it was Ramon who did the FA of La Reina Mora, not Huber.

In reply to mac fae stirling:

ABC run quite a few teams. I think the elite squad goes from 13-19. She has trained there for a long time so I would imagine that she will keep in touch with her coaches even when not in the squad. It works both ways as she is good publicity for the team and sponsors.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Well if we're worrying about things being 'ludicrously contrived', maybe we shouldn't look too closely at the crux of the story, which is a celebration of reaching a notch on an entirely arbitrary scale. Perhaps we could invent an entirely new grading system that puts 9a/9a+ in one band and 9a+ in another (in fact isn't that the case in YDS?), then Margo can claim the FFA of that grade without it being disputed.

Surely it's enough to celebrate the hardest climb yet performed by a woman as the phenomenal achievement that it is.

In reply to planetmarshall:


The debate is that if the the route is 9a or 9a/9a+ then that means it is not the hardest route climbed by a woman, as Ashima Shiraishi has climbed Ciudad de Dios (9a/9a+) and Josune Bereziartu* has climbed Bimbaluna (9a/9a+).

However, from what Mr Lopez says above it IS 9a+ so all our debates about routes beyond our comprehension of difficulty is rendered redundant.

Had a quick google and it was in 2002 that she climbed Bain de Sang. She was way ahead of the curve.

In reply to galpinos:


Just to muddle things a little.... It could be that the route is 9a, or 9b for that matter. I wouldn't know as I haven't done it. But since the consensus from those who climbed is a+ then that's what it is until they say otherwise. Not really down to us to grade routes we never been in spitting distance of from the comfort of our chairs.

In reply to mac fae stirling:

I know.

In reply to Mr Lopez:
>"Not really down to us to grade routes we never been in spitting distance of from the comfort of our chairs."

I've climbed the up to the second bolt. It's about 6b to there. Hope this helps.

Edit: Or maybe it was the first bolt. Was a while ago...

In reply to JLS:

its 2 bolts until the overhanging crack.... so you probably managed that

In reply to UKC News:

Some seriously cringeworthy comments from this old thread about Josune's ascent of Bimbalauna...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=129720

In reply to UKC News:

There are a few routes in Siurana with off limits jugs (Memorias de una Sepia, Anabolica, to name a couple of classics). I climbed Memorias using the jug a few days ago and definitely wouldn't claim 8a for it, but it definitely would be 8a without the jug, even if it seems a little arbitrary to skip it. I wouldn't care to comment on the difficulty of Anabolica or La Rambla having been on neither but I can see how they would be similar. Whatever the grade it was great watching Margo on La Rambla and I'm psyched she got it done, there's a great feel about the place at the minute. Gutted I missed the successful ascent

In reply to bensilvestre:

It's good to know we aren't the only country of climbers to make up ostensibly silly eliminate ways of climbing things because it makes them climb either harder or just 'better'

Phenomenal achievement anyway. 9a+ at 19 is amazing.

In reply to Si dH:


Do we? On supposedly classic routes? If a line is a bit eliminate, the feeling is, I think, that it detracts from the quality. And I can't think of a single route where we are supposed to ignore a good hold almost in front of our nose - that's just silly!

In reply to planetmarshall:

The two things are not in any way comparable. A hold that is not "in" is obviously contrived (anyway, I pointed this out very much as an aside). A grading scale is arrived at by consensus over which routes are harder than others - that is not arbitrary. This story is especially newsworthy because it is about the hardest route ever climbed by a woman, and if* that is in question then it is obviously a relevant point of discussion. But it is clearly still a phenomenal achievement either way. And to those who say this is only being discussed because she is a woman, well that is clearly nonsense - there would be exactly the same scrutiny if a man had done it and it was being claimed as the first 9a+ onsight. Like it or not, grades matter to many, possible most, people in sport climbing.

*It's still not entirely clear to me from this thread whether it still is!

In reply to planetmarshall:


Yes a very different reception. Makes you wonder if Margo has stronger sponsors ??!

In reply to Robert Durran:
Quite a few classic sport routes and boulder problems in the UK have eliminate rules. Ever heard of the controversy when people started using knee bars on Mecca?
I think you are thinking more of trad, which is a different context to a sport route.

Edit: I had said 'Many' sport routes , which is probably over the top. There are certainly a few around though, and shedloads of boulder problems, which have rules.

In reply to Si dH:


I certainly wasn't thinking of boulder problems and it's surprising news to me about sport routes (but then I hardly ever clip bolts in the UK).

In reply to Robert Durran:


Not quite in front of your nose but the verboten side pull at the top of Raindogs comes close. Also Rhapsody is worse in that it's mandated (by some) which hand on the last hold you reach the top from

In reply to UKC News:

Mind boggling accent, the level has gone up by such a large margin.

If anyone is actually questioning the grade consider this fact - Dani Andrada has been up there on a redpoint so many times now, he's been trying the route since 1995 and still not seal the deal despite having climbed multiple 9a and even 9b.

I climb at El Pati on the far easier routes every year and every year I have the feeling I could stare up this 50 metre wall of pristine limestone forever almost! The bit where La Rambla and La Reina Mora are, is so damn impressive.

In reply to Tyler:


The big sidepull above and right of the top roof?? I didn't think it was so much "verboten", as viewed as the type of thing someone from Sheffield would do. You could still claim the"tick", but right-thinking Yorkshiremen would put a mental asterisk against it and mutter behind your back.

A question sprang to mind last night when I saw the "Young Guns" film profiling Ashima and Kai.

How does 9a+ compare to sport 5.15?

In reply to Blue Straggler:


If by 5.15 you mean "5.15a", then they are the same thing.

In reply to Epsilon:

I did mean 5.15a, sorry, that was a typo. Anyway no matter, I had misremembered the outcome of the film (it was the first in a programme of 6). She didn't quite complete Thor's Hammer (5.15a) but then completed Horizon (V15) and I simply got my 15s mixed up.

In reply to Phil Murray:


Perhaps the best climbing video i've ever seen!

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

Thanks for that! Climbing movies have really changed over the last 10 years. The advent of the drone being quite noticeable...usually droning on about how a struggle with a particular route has been an inner struggle which has altered their perspective on life.

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

It's good isn't it! I watched it the whole way through & really enjoyed it.

Phil

In reply to Xavierpercy:


Nice juxtaposition!

In reply to Mr Lopez:

& gxp


That's a great video too, who is the climber here?

I really like the very close up footage segued in, repeating + then slow mo of getting on / in the small holds and pockets, presume they are by drone?
... and then the drone from way back panning around, you often can't perceive the steepness aspect / perspective without that.

Still prefer the film of Edu Marin on it.

As for ondra, he gotta slow down a bit, it doesn't make good movies climbing so fast with such perfect finger + footwork accuracy, no-no-no mr ondra, you're doing it all a bit too wrong

Congratulations to Margo, btw!

In reply to UKC News:

I'm a big fan of UKC, but I find the reporting a bit silly. Even click bait,

Their own headlines below:
Josune Bereziartu repeats a 9a+ (2005)
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/17601/josune_bereziartu_repeats_a_9a

Open your mind direct, ~9a+, by Ashima Shiraishi (2015) - mentions if confirmed, it would be the first female 9a+
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/69590/open_your_mind_direct_9a_by_ashi...

and this one
https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/70960/margo_hayes_repeats_la_rambla_9a
'This was the first female ascent of a 9a+ route.'

In reply to UKC News:

Very short vid of her ascent (71 secs). I'm guessing there'll be a longer one along later.

youtube.com/watch?v=bf216olTjeI&

In reply to UKC News:

There's also now an interview and lots of photos on The Circuit...

http://www.thecircuitclimbing.com/m/EhAKBU1pdGVtEICAgMzy55AK/margo-hayes-th...