UKC

This is a really beautiful short vid even besides the message, which is very thought provoking.
https://weloveanimals.me/released-14-wolves-park-no-one-prepared-unbelievab...
The resistance to a few lynx being set free in Grisedale Forest is very sad I think.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

You are possibly the third or fourth person to put this on the forum. Might be worth a search to get the other replies and responses.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Grisedale forest wouldn't be my first choice as a release site; it is, by the standards of these things, a bit domestic. Kielder forest would be a much better choice, parts of Scotland better still.

T.

In reply to Rog Wilko: George monbiot is narrating. It's worth reading his book about rewinding, Feral.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

I am very dubious of the benefits of rewilding (especially apex predators) in the UK, unless contained over a large area or management policies agreed and put in place first. I'm far from convinced of the benefits - maybe over cautious.
Once introduced any species will be very hard to get rid of if it goes wrong, due to public opinion. Look at the grey squirrel in Italy, a government department agreed on an eradication campaign and were taken to court and stopped by an animal rights group, greys have spread north and now nearing France.

This is worth a read, whether you agree or not it basically urges caution and is another point of view.

http://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(15)01575-4

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Even more sad for the Lynx. They would either be hit by a car/mountain bike or shotgun within a week.

In reply to toad:

Yes, I enjoyed it a lot. Should have been called 'The Blindingly Obvious'. Monbiot should be minister for the environment.

In reply to Dave the Rave:


The failure rate of a very expensive eu funded lynx reintroduction in Spain makes sad reading.

Or this Wolf which has strayed way too far South into more populated areas and if not shot will start (if not already) killing farm stock and pets.
http://www.smp.se/vaxjo/bilist-foljde-varg-pa-vag/ wonder how many people will let their kids walk the last bit home from school in those rural areas.

In reply to summo:

did you see this?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/25/europe-wolf-population-finlan...

In reply to toad:
Yeah. 3 years ago they did a big DNA stock survey (from their poo), plus a visual head count... the results were that the population was roughly the right size, but too inbred. It was primarily reintroduced stock with practical zero natural mixing.

The government nature conservancy which you imagine is quite pro environmental in Sweden said they would cull a modest amount less than 10% and introduce so new deliberately diverse stock. A new pack that would in time cast off males that would diversify other packs....

The green lobby, 99.9% city living folk from Stockholm took them to court to ban that years hunt and they won. The wildlife policy in Sweden is almost entirely led by people who spend 2 weeks winter and summer in their countryside cabin, the rest of their life is spent in Stockholm cycling and waxing their beards.(slight rant).

In reply to summo:

I agree with you. Lynx are powerful animals and I wouldn't want to upset one.
Little Johnny or Julie wouldn't stand a chance.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

I will let you into a secret. Five years back whilst driving over the Wrynose Pass at night, we saw a large cat in our headlights. Definetly a Puma. Scared the shit out of us behind our steel doors and deinetly put me off wildcamping in that area. I won't wildcamp without a dog now.

In reply to Dave the Rave:


I was referring more to the wolves with the op.

Lynx territory is roughly 10km2 each so anywhere South of Hadrians wall is a no go, perhaps with a slight exception of a bit mid Wales. We have lynx here and have no concerns about the my kids going anywhere, but if a stray Wolf is reported in the area then you have to be more pragmatic. In 5 plus years the closest I've ever seen a lynx is about 250m and I'm lucky as most never see them.

Lynx will just avoid people, much more than wolves but people in the UK will poach lynx as trophies. Not to mention the costs involved http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33648602

In reply to Dave the Rave:

Fu@k me, what sort of dog you got ??

In reply to arch:


A sacrificial one, you tie it down then leg it while the puma eats it.

In reply to Dave the Rave:


Sadly true.

In reply to summo:


Rather not have them here in mid Wales thanks, basically no deer so I fear the sheep may get a hammering!

In reply to arch:

It's a rehomed sheep mauler from a relative.
Imagine the dogs head from the film Mask, then add it to a massively interbred Lurcher/Mastiff body, combine that with my wife's temper if you try and take her fag and vodka off her and you would get a dog that would give you a good nights sleep in Grizzly country.

In reply to Dave the Rave:

Sounds like your missus would get on well with mrs num num

In reply to Moley:


But if you rewilded a little then you wouldn't have the mono culture and there would be more wildlife, including food sources for lynx. They prefer forest and remote areas so even most of mid Wales isn't appropriate.

In reply to toad:


Typo surely? Didn't you mean 'George Monbiot is irritating'?

In reply to Moley:

Too many sheep in midWales, but I would agree, best not to sort it by Lynx.

In reply to summo:

The lynx thing in Spain isn't really a reintroduction, it's more species protection of the already native but very rare Iberian lynx. Also lynx numbers and area over which they're found is slowly increasing, so I'd go with expensive but not failure, more paying a fair price for stupid human persecution if an animal that almost entirely eats rabbits.

European lynx should be reintroduced, we badly need a top predator to keep deer numbers down, lynx don't go for people, whereas wolves may in rare circumstances. European lynx preferentially eat deer so the sheep argument doesn't hold that much water, besides which, most upland sheep farming us uneconomic and only survives due to E U subsidies, which will disappear soon.....

In reply to Moley:


It's consistently true that introducing non-native species is a disaster - I'd be in favour a concentrated effort to get rid of grey squirrels. Reintroducing previously native predators is a bit different, although it would still need to be thought through very carefully.

Monbiot makes a good case apart from the major problem that he seems to revel in winding up the very people he needs to convince. None of these schemes will work without overwhelming support from the locals.

In reply to LakesWinter:

there are 3 captive breeding centres in spain and 1 in Portugal... that's a little more than simply helping them in the wild naturally.


Never said failure but there is a cost. They are in places that are quite populated and road kills are high.


Would agree, but they don't just eat rabbits, perhaps in spain but not elsewhere.


Would totally agree and have never said otherwise. Man could always hunt more deer too, organic, free range, low fat etc...


Never said otherwise, I live where there are lynx and have no problem with the kids playing in the same field I've seen lynx.

European lynx preferentially eat deer so the sheep argument doesn't hold that much water, besides which, most upland sheep farming us uneconomic and only survives due to E U subsidies, which will disappear soon.....

Would agree, if I was a multi generational UK farmer in semi/upland areas I would be progressively be reforesting, perhaps a few percent per year as a longer term investment. We graze a few cows, but the majority of our income comes from forest. Some folk have sheep and lambs out here, not once have I ever heard of a lynx taking any. Foxes are more problematic as they are much more willing to come closer to humans. A stray wolf is rare (1 or 2 a year), but it is devastating for the flocks of sheep it decides to target.

In reply to summo:

Yes, I agree there is a cost to protecting the Iberian lynx, which is a different species to the European lynx btw. European lynx also kill and eat foxes, which would regulate their population too without men in red coats and dogs.

In reply to LakesWinter:


I've seen zero evidence of that here in population numbers. A fox is a far more cunning animal than your roe deer etc.. there would have to be very little food for a lynx to start trying to get fox. The biggest factor in fox numbers is winter food availability, not other predators.

In reply to LakesWinter:

The idea that either Lynx or Wolves are "needed" in the UK to keep down the number of deer is based on a rather optimistic assessment of how many deer Lynx & Wolves will actually kill, and a vast underestimate on how many deer there now are.

In reply to Dave Perry:


would agree, better to use the over population of deer as a food source, to offset the lost of meat when you re-forest the over grazed uplands. Everyone's a winner

In reply to summo:

The Iberian lynx is a different species from that found further north & east, its often described as the world's most endangered cat. They have different diets and live in different landscapes.

As for wolf in Sweden, I know you live there but I do work with staff from SEPA, the ministry and other bodies involved & it has all got very political with much of the science disputed. What is clear is that the existing population is both too small & too inbred to have much chance of survival but low levels of migration form population in Russia would solve this. Unfortunately such animals would have to get across the reindeer grazing areas in northern Sweden which under current circumstances isn't very likely unless given a helping hand. Shooting of individuals that cross into Norway by Norwegians doesn't help either.

In reply to Dave Perry:

Wolves also make deer more skittish and studies from Yellowstone where wolves were reintroduced, show that the deer move on far more often when wolves are present, thus allowing some saplings to survive and become trees and thus benefitting the natural regeneration if the entire area. So it's not just eating the deer, it's changing their behaviour to a more natural state.

In reply to Dave the Rave:


Have you read the chapter of Monbiot's book Feral that talks about big cat sightings? It's excellent.

Also, in terms of Lynx, you'd never see one, let alone be attacked by one.

In reply to Doug:

yes, I know I only highlighted it as an example of cost, but also failures due to road kills etc..


yes and the SEPA report highlighted the inbreeding, that I mentioned above. Due to the lack of Finnish /Russian land connection they proposed the immediate solution was to cull some and replace stock. This was over ruled in court, not by the Sami, the farmers etc.. but by conservation groups, which is ironic when it would make the existing packs healthier.


yes and the city living green lobby are currently more problematic than the landowners, farmers or sami. The Sami have had recent success in the blocking the development of mines, so their lobby power is still strong though. The current situation isn't likely to improve as the far left and the green alliance are currently a minority coalition in office, so any political progress on anything for another 3 years is limited.


I would agree, but it is also a question of where the wolves go, their habitat is remote by UK or Stockholm suburb standards but not zero population. The remote areas of Europe aren't quite the same as some US national parks which are essentially unpopulated.

Can't blame the farmer for shooting a wolf coming onto his land. The last lone wolf near us (2 weeks ago), trekked along the road past cars and houses during the day. If it's not shot or captured soon, it will probably kill sheep when they are sent out as the weather warms. There is compensation, but it's a flat rate. No special prices for speciality breeds, breeding stock, lost of future income... only a carcass price.

There are other politics in play, there are roughly 300,000 land/forest owners in Sweden (if you ignore the small holders) who generally would prefer to see less wolves, certainly less elk and wild boar. There are roughly 300,000 people with hunting licences who would like more wildlife and some people have a ticket in both camps. In many parts of Sweden it is impossible to grow young pine etc.. as there are too many elk and the annual cull quota isn't high enough, a solution more wolves in rural areas; that isn't going to go down well either.

I don't think there is a solution, the human population from a time when all these animals roam freely in large numbers has multiplied many times. Rewinding the clock back isn't quite so simple. That said you could put some lynx into remote parts of the UK and no one would notice the difference.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


I think there will be more action against greys in the coming years, both to conserve reds and negate the damage that greys do. I know there is a lot of work going on with how best to eradicate them - ideally without too much hue and cry from the public. But squirrels are my pet issue, so I won't go on about them!
I would love to see less sheep in mid Wales and more natural regenerated woodland on the uplands, but it's a complex issue and first you need to have the co-operation of the landowners themselves - which means a guaranteed income (equivalent to their sheep) for them, their family and future generations. This would also have to "outbid" the £££ notes that commercial forestry are waving about for uplands and windfarm alternatives.

As you say, it's no good winding people (owners of the land) up, they have to be convinced by the arguments and come on board voluntarily.

In reply to Moley:


A well trained mob of pine martens is the answer.

In reply to Moley:


Why not just forest your own land, if a big company can make money, then you can make more by doing the work yourself. It pays a lot better than sheep per hectare, the problem is the 20 or 30 yr lead in period to first thinning. Hence my suggestion for multi generation farms to convert a few percent per year .

In reply to RyanOsborne:


We've released them, 40 so far over 2 years (from Scotland) and another 20 this coming autumn. They have spread over very large area of Wales, first seem to have made it to my area, computer mapping had them double their population in 8 years (think that is correct figure) so very much the long game before their densities are anything like enough to impact on the greys and help the reds. If they do.
There's a PhD study from the start on their impact on grey population and why, sort of watch this space but we are all praying that 20 years from now we may be winning, till then we have to conserve our last reds.

In reply to Moley: Simplistic question here - aren't the Pine Martins going to eat red as well as grey squirrels?

So how will PMs help the conservation of the reds?

Also, doesn't predated species numbers generally depend on food supply rather than predator numbers - unless the introduction of predators changes the predated's behaviours in a way that affects their food/breeding as at Yellowstone.

In reply to Michael Hood:

The thought is that because greys weigh a lot more than reds, the reds can often escape the pine marten by hiding on the end of thin branches (something they have evolved to do/learned to do having lived alongside pine martens for thousands of years). The heavier greys can't do this but can get eaten. Studies in Ireland indicate that the presence of pine martens also changes greys behaviours - they sit around stripping bark and eating less and move around more, thus leading to less tree damage overall.

In reply to LakesWinter:
Ooh. Potential for another trophic cascade?

In reply to Michael Hood:

As Lakeswinter says. But there is only the Ireland study and that was inconclusive and posed unanswered questions, there is something going on and hopefully the current phd study will add more information. This study is being done from scratch with no pine martens present and then introducing them. Both martens and grey squirrels captured from the area carrying collars, also the martens are being sampled for what they eat. Recatch the marten, take a hair from it and from this they can tell it's diet - clever, don't ask me how! Unfortunately they have eaten some reds as well

There is definitely something happening between the martens and greys and there is a lot of hope riding on the outcome (for red squirrels) but the ecologists involved are very much playing it down until they have answers - which is good science.

In reply to Moley:


As long as the Daily Fail doesn't get hold of it

In reply to Moley:
What makes them take greys but not reds?

Sorry. Just scrolled up and seen.

They took reds, perhaps because the reds behaviour there hasn't evolved with PMs along side.

In reply to summo:


That is the theory so far, of why they take greys - easier to catch in the trees and greys spend 80% of their time hunting on the ground also makes them very vulnerable (reds spend about 80% time in the canopy).
But it isn't just martens eating greys, possibly the greys move away when the predator is sensed and moves into the area, possibly greys become stressed and fail to breed, possibly the females don't come into season (stress?). What is the density of martens for these to occur? Do martens prey on greys out of choice or only when short of easier foods like voles, mice? Lots more questions to answer, but all interesting.

In reply to Moley:

Just a point of interest.
Red squirrels were reintroduced to Clocaenog Forest several years back.
Someone then decided to release a pair of Goshawk into the forest which went on to eat all the reds.

How many reds are required to sustain predators in a woodland if they are a main predators prey? They seem to flourish in Glen Feshie where there raptors, marten and Wildcats?

In reply to Moley:


And every answer will probably generate a few more questions. But as the greys decline and reds hold their ground or increase, its goal achieved.

Long term, leave martens in place?

In reply to Dave the Rave:

Don't know, I believe they thought the reds were all gone from clocaenog but they were recently sighted again on camera. One of the released martens is up in the forest there, having travelled from Devil's Bridge area ( quite a trek) seems to be staying there so wondering if it has found a resident (not released marten) there as a potential mate.

We have goshawks here and no shortage of greys, we shall see, think our goshawks prefer people's chickens!

In reply to summo:

The martens have been released specifically to reintroduce them back to Wales and reach sustainable breeding numbers. The link with red squirrels is a bonus rather than the reason. They will stay - presuming all goes well, foxes are main predators of martens.

In reply to Rog Wilko:
Well, I've learnt a lot of fascinating stuff from putting up this, as I thought, inconsequential post. It's amazing how UKC seems to have experts on nearly anything.
BTW, has anyone else read Susan Halls novel "The Wolf Border", which is about the reintroduction of wolves into the NW of England. It came out a couple of years or so ago. Great read, I thought, but then I'm a big fan of hers.

In reply to Michael Hood:

So how will PMs help the conservation of the reds?

May is opposed to reds and is doing her best to get rid of them.
Corbyn loves them and thinks that he is their saviour. Unfortunately for Corbyn, a lot of them don't want his help and are constantly plotting against him.
It's no wonder that they're a species in decline...

In reply to RyanOsborne:
I think there will be more action against greys in the coming years, both to conserve reds and negate the damage that greys do. I know there is a lot of work going on with how best to eradicate them - ideally without too much hue and cry from the public.






I've got a well trained Lurcher who's doing his bit........

In reply to Moley:


I thought they got a hammering off the locals anyway. Or is that something different?

In reply to Rog Wilko:
I hope the Lynx Trust is successful in their aim to release Lynx to Northumberland as part of a scientific trial. I believe the local stakeholder consultation is currently underway.

I for one would be first to spend my money on visiting the area just on the off chance to see one. I have been lucky enough to spot a Lynx in Sweden before and I would love to one day see one in England.

Also, walking down a mountain track and finding bear, lynx and wolf prints in the snow is magical. I recommend it to everyone! Unfortunately still not seen a wolf in the wild yet, though I have heard them in numerous places from Canada to Romania.

In reply to Moley:


I've killed over 400 of them on 150 acres in 2yrs now, and still no sign of them buggering off. I'm trapping with fenns constantly, drey poking & shooting but it doesn't seem to make a difference.


With regard to apex predator reintroduction, it's all well and good until winter hits and the wolves/lynx realise that the sheep & lambs down in the valleys are a much easier meal to catch, leading to them receiving an abrupt end via a bullet.

In reply to Bimble:


I'm on about 450 in 21/2 years from the valley where I have permission, I use cage traps. Struggling to catch any numbers this winter, a very noticeable lack of greys - but that's the whole point of the exercise!

In reply to Moley:

The Grey eradication programme in this area seems to have stopped with those responsible for it concentrating their efforts in the woods and in the wood verges i.e towns nearest to the woods.

Saying that from a subjective point of view it appears that the Reds are expanding in this county after the crash in numbers a few years ago. I am now seeing Reds in parts of the county that I have never seen them in before. The estimate is that the numbers in the woods are back to pre crash levels so I am guessing that the individuals that I have seen well away from the core area must be from an expansion in the colony. There are loads of Greys about too, my bird table is raided by them daily!!

In reply to Alan M:

I for one would be interested in knowing in which areas you and others culling greys are operating, unless it's secret. Where I live near Kendal we seem to be on the front line. Also, is this your paid occupation, for whom do you work, etc.

In reply to Rog Wilko:


Sorry, been out all day.
I'm in mid Wales, a volunteer on this scheme http://midwalesredsquirrels.org
Don't get paid but have all traps, bait etc supplied. I trap from about December through till May, pretty much every day (except like today when I had to shut the traps as I couldn't check them), takes me 1-2 hours daily. This great, rucksack on with about 15lb weight and walking up and down every morning in all weather 7 days a week.
That forms the basis of my summer fitness and I feel much stronger after a few months, being retired and approaching 65 I have the time and appreciate the fitness. Gets me off my arse every morning.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

I just wish there were more Cougars about

In reply to Rog Wilko:

Herefordshire/Worcestershire border for me. I do it as part of general pest control alongside corvids & foxes; I manage the vermin on the land and run a very modest pheasant shoot in my spare time, nothing paid or professional, just for the enjoyment of me and the old boy who owns the land, with a couple of my mates helping out.
Plus it's just nice finishing work, grabbing the dog & a gun from home and spending an hour walking the traps in an evening.

In reply to Moley:

Thank you for that, most interesting.

In reply to Bimble:

Thanks, you've given me a picture.