UKC

Hi,
I know this isn't the most appropriate venue but I'm not sure that I know what that would be. I want to preface this with saying that I'm not a parent and if I'm ignorantly misunderstanding the challenges of parenthood then please shoot me down, I'd love nothing more than to be told that I was overreacting.

For the past 8 months my girlfriend and I have lived next door to a young family, the kids are ~2 and ~5. We haven't really gotten to know the family beyond saying hi as we pass in the street, certainly not well enough to have an inkling how we can offer any support to them.

Over that time we've become increasingly concerned about the parents' ability to cope. Almost every day features a full blown screaming match with the mum repeatedly screaming at the kids to "shut up" and "f*ck off" - often simply screaming incoherently at the tp of her lungs , the dad regularly bellowing that if they don't stop crying he'll "give them something to cry about". My girlfriend's heard mum screaming at the kids that she wishes the kids had never been born. These aren't stern words or tellings off, they're full on hysterical rants conducted at a pitch and intensity that I can't overstate - often going on for half an hour or more.

I want to be absolutely clear that I've not seen any evidence of physical abuse - I've scarsely met the children at all so I've no idea how they are.

Basically, we've reached the point where we're not able to just rationalise it away any more and I wanted to share it with someone away from the situation. Does it sound like we're overreacting? Has anyone found them in a similar situation? Any advice?

Sorry to be so off topic, I probably just wanted to vent, thanks for reading.

Sam

In reply to Lemony:
I think you are right to be concerned although I don't know what the answer is. Too many cases are cropping up where children come to grief and many situation s are, I'm sure, a progression from the situation you describe.

In reply to Lemony:

Just to help you make a decision; emotional, sexual and psychological abuse or neglect are by no means any better for a child (or worse) than physical abuse. You should treat them all the same.

I don't know the exact procedure but I'm sure if you called 101 they wouldn't complain.

In reply to Lemony:

Ooo.. messy. If it was me (and I'm a qualified social worker), I would phone social care for advice. First place would be a safeguarding helpline, then if that doesn't get anywhere, a multi-disciplinary team or whatever passes as one in your area. Obviously if you have immediate concerns for safety, you need to contact the Police. All sounds a bit harsh and heavy handed, but it is right. Picture the scenario if the children got damaged, and services weren't alerted beforehand. Not very comfortable. Will there be backlash from the neighbours for reporting? Possibly, but there shouldn't be if the services handle it remotely sensitively. Either way, child abuse just is not acceptable, and trumps other concerns.

Bit of a bummer for you and gf that it's fallen on you lap, but life sometimes does that. Good luck, and feel free to pm me if you feel the need to.

In reply to Lemony:

A lot of things are shouted in situations when people find themselves under a lot of pressure without recourse to help. They could be reaching a point where they can't cope or they might just be one of "those noisy families". They could probably benefit from some help to cope but how that could be achieved is hard to judge without knowing the circumstances. Relieving some pressure can achieve a lot. Do they have in-laws coming to help or do they seem isolated?

In reply to Lemony:

Emotional abuse in childhood can accompany a child for the rest of their life. It sounds like these parents are unable to cope, and physical harm may just be a matter of time.

If you call the local child protection service helpline and describe the situation, they will know whether to do something, and what to do.

In reply to Removed UserFuchs:

I'd think that would be a step too far without knowing more, but it might be possible to find out whether there are any local agencies or organisations that can offer help or support for young families?

In reply to Lemony:

I would speak to socal services if I were in this situation. You are not over-reacting.

In reply to wercat:

The OP has clearly described abuse towards a child, it's right to report it. It's thinking like yours that allows minors who need help 'slip through the net'.

Report it, don't try to solve it yourself.

In reply to The Green Giant:

You're assuming too much - I already included the proviso "without knowing the circumstances" - if there are more circumstances not disclosed by the OP then that changes things. The signs stated are that the parents need help of some sort, not, so far that they are abusers. I have refrained from "knowing" what the right thing to do is because I am aware of the problems families with young children can have and I do not know as much about this as the OP. I think something needs to be done or offered but you are assuming it should be something that could be very destructive.

Rather than reporting it I think promptly seeking advice from professionals might not be a bad idea - the OP has already provided evidence of having a strong concern and sensitivity

In reply to The Green Giant:

You don't know what my thinking is, either, though it may give you some personal pleasure to feel superior

In reply to The Green Giant:

I do however, bow to your greater experience of life and being a parent

In reply to wercat:

If a parent is streaming at their own child that they wished they had never been born, then you should really take the issue to the professionals. The school or nursery of the eldest may also have worries, but without a view of the children's home life social services only have half the story. The OPs information could be critical or irrelevant, but reporting it is the only proper route to take.

In reply to Lemony:

You should call your local social services children's team, speak to the duty officer and describe to them your concerns.

They are there to decide if it needs further action and it may be that the family are already known to them.

Social services role is primarily to support families but they also have a statutory responsibility regarding safeguarding.

You are not being over sensitive but have appropriate concerns!

In reply to gribble and everyone else:

Thanks for the advice. I'm probably not going to reply too much as I don't want to discuss the specifics but rest assured I'm reading what everyone has to say and appreciate the responses.

In reply to Lemony:

I have been in a similar situation once and contacted the NSPCC. You can either phone their helpline or fill in an online form: https://www.nspcc.org.uk/what-you-can-do/report-abuse/report-abuse-online/

I moved out soon after, and I am not sure if any action was ever taken. I was doubtful that they would take action based on my evidence alone, but I figured that at the very least it could be helpful to have my evidence on file in case someone else (other residents, teachers, GP, etcetera) reported similar concerns.

In reply to Lemony:
I work in Child Protection and would concur with other posters in that it needs reporting to someone.
The parents need support and whether that's through the involvement of a Social Worker should be for professionals to decide. Please report to the local safeguarding helpline, or the NSPCC or school or nursery. It can be done anonymously.

I have been involved with cases where this sort of thing had also been recorded and sent to the police.

In reply to Lemony:

Call social care and tell them exactly what you have said here.

In reply to Lemony:
I'd tend to agree that it shouldn't be ignored but it seems a sad reflection on modern community spirit that nobody has suggested asking the mum around for a coffee rather than immediately calling social services or the NSPCC.

It might just be a huge help to her.

In reply to Lemony:

I think you should report it. While all parents lose their rag occasionally, this sounds like they cannot cope.
It's not a case of stopping it before it gets worse, it already is causing permanent damage to the children. Hopefully some help from someone who knows what they are doing - ie. a social worker, will enable them to develop strategies to become good parents.

In reply to timjones:

That's a nice thought, but I don't think it's very practical for the OP. People get very defensive if they feel their parenting is being criticised. It takes a skilled person to deal with this sort of situation tactfully and effectively, and from the OP I gather they don't have these skills.

In reply to Lemony:

Hey there, what a sh*t situation with your neighbours. Unless you are exaggerating this, and I don't think you are, it sounds worthy of some action. I wouldn't recommend speaking to your neighbours, you only know them to say hi in the passing so how you go from that to "we hear you screaming at your kids and worry about them" is too big a leap with many risks. As another social worker, I've been saddened when something terrible happens and all these neighbours and relatives come out of the woodwork to say that they had seen it coming, and I think, well why didn't you bloody do something. As a member of the public, your responsibility for these children ends with you speaking to the authorities, then it's up to them to do their jobs properly. The authorities most likely won't tell you what happens afterwards, but don't let that worry you, you'll have done your bit. Everybody ought to feel that they can speak up for children in their community, because they're all our children and they'll pay our pensions when we're old and retired.

Finally, I grew up in a house where we three kids were thumped by our parents, and next door was a house where the mum shouted and swore non stop at her children, but they were never hit. Even though you hear this horrible stuff, you don't really know what's going on in there, and your imagination might be far worse than reality, but it might not. Tell someone in authority. That's the local social services office during work time and the 24 hour team if at weekends or at night-time, you'll get the numbers off the internet. The NSPCC helpline is another option, and if you live in Scotland, speak to the local children's reporter's office. You can contact all of these people anonymously, they will press you to give your name, but there is No reason to give this, even if they say that it's an important identifying factor in the evidence chain if they do find evidence of crimes. You do not need to identify yourself.

All the best.

Tom

In reply to Lemony:

We like next to a man with mental health difficulties. He is part cared for by his sister. At one point, she was obviously finding it too much and used to scream at him. It was really uncomfortable listening. I can't remember who we spoke to, social services or GP or someone. They said someone would have a chat and after that she calmed down. I guess if you are very stressed, you maybe forget how your actions may impact on others, but vulnerable people shouldn't be used as a stress outlet.

I work in this area. Obviously first choice in an ideal world is talk to your neighbour but i understand why this often isnt a viable option.

Based on what you have said i wouuld make a call to either the NSPCC helpline or the local council child services. Most counties/regions will have a flexible response and will go from no action>early/low level response >social care.

They are better to decide the response than you so to be safe. Make the call. Both NSPCC (who will pass the concers to local area) and local child services will ptlrotect your anonymity.

In reply to Hooo:


The suggestion wasn't to criticise their parenting or even to discuss it at all, it was simply to extend a bit of friendship and offer some adult company.

It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that this is all tha is needed to make the mum feel a whole lot better about life.

In reply to Lemony:
You're getting consistent advice from several professionals - you did amazingly well by posting on here.

In reply to timjones:

I think you are right in a general sense, but it could take months to build up a rapport that would potentially improve the home life of the kids. We all have challenges in life at different times, but if things reach the level in the OPs example then even the great British "I'll put the kettle on" may not solve this crisis.

In reply to Lemony:

Horrible situation to be in, and tragic for both the children AND the parents. But make not mistake: on the basis of what you have said the children ARE being abused, whether physical or sexual violence is being used or not.

As others have said this is one for the social services. You have no choice.

In reply to summo:
I agreed with the comment from a social worker who suggested getting advice from the professionals, and also with the idea someone expressed of offering practical help but it takes confidence and extreme sensitivity to do the latter in a safe and helpful manner which is why I was loath to suggest that without knowing more.

Quite a lot of harm has been done by people shopping families in the past, as well as not intervening at all; it's really difficult


ps I've been on the receiving end of a sometimes (and probably more than normal) hysterical (technically) screaming parent when I was a kid. Sometimes she lost it but at the other end she was extremely loving tried and consistently did her level best for 5 kids and never harmed any of us - sometimes life just got too much. I'm bloody glad no one sent the social workers in, but then they wouldn't have, in those days.

In reply to grommet:


Out of interest, how successful is that usually? I get the impression the parents could just tell the "meddling" neighbors/social services to f-off out of their lives, "we ain't done nuffing wrong". No kid has been harmed in their eyes, probably and attempts to explain the nuances of "abuse" is probably not going to be hugely effective.

At risk of drawing too many conclusions from the OP, and having similar neighbors once, the phrase "not coping" sounds like a bit of an understatement here. Some people seem capable of behaving this way whether they have kids or not, and if this is just their underlying way of relating to other humans, I'm a bit doubtful about the impact a well-meaning but possibly toothless social services visit will have. Do they have the scope to escalate things because kids are being yelled at?

In reply to David Martin:
There used to be "professional" befriending charities decades ago who would try to stop things getting to this juncture, by providing practical support and help, but I don't know whether they still exist and have no experience of them.


to Lemony:

this was the kind of organisation I meant, seems they are still around

https://www.safefamiliesforchildren.com/?gclid=CMuV-d2gvdICFXQW0wodlswKQA

In reply to summo:


You're quite right that it might not work or might take some time but to report someone to the authorities without making a bit of effort to get to know them seems like a pretty shitty thing to do.

Is this really how modern society has evolved

In reply to timjones:

Would agree, but I guess the ground work is done from when you become neighbours, not when things go wrong.

Thankfully not all the of world is so detached. But inner cities or urban areas are almost more lonely than rural areas. We have no neighbours for a mile, with most other people pretty similar, but everyone makes an effort to get together several times a year because of that isolation. Off to our local community hall tonight which has a catchment of probably a 7 or 8 mile radius. 116 folk meeting up for a meal, dessert and coffee, with live music and comedian for entertainment.

Sometimes these dos are dullothers great, but I think it's important to get out, if not for my sake perhaps others who go are really in need of this social. So we tend to treat all events as compulsory attendance.

In reply to timjones:


We're not talking about shopping them so that they can charged with an offence. My concern is that they need skilled help, and the only way I can see that they are going to get this is to get an organisation involved.
This might sound impersonal, but it's the best way to deal with the situation the OP was asking about.

In reply to timjones:

'Is this really how modern society has evolved?'

Thankfully yes. Through most of history children could be treated appallingly badly and no-one would do anything about it. We have moved on.

In reply to Lemony:

Thanks once again to everyone who has responded. I have called the NSPCC action line and they're making a referral to childrens' services. I'd been mulling over the idea for a while and your assistance was the push I needed.

I agree that in an ideal world it would be nice to solve things over a cup of tea but that's something I'd barely be able to manage with close friends and family, let alone someone I barely know and have spoken to maybe a dozen times.

Also, call me cycnical but I suspect that the good old days where these things were sorted out over a cuppa probably didn't do the best job of protecting the childrens' interests.

In reply to timjones:

I take your point, but there's a world of difference between knowing someone and 'having a quiet word', and turning up on the doorstep of what is in effect a complete stranger and offering advice.

From the OPs description, I suspect the sort of couple who go off and give 30 minutes of hysterical abuse, complete with a barrage of "f*cks", to a two year old and five year old aren't exactly stable people who you can have a reasonable discussion with.

Pretty much certain to escalate into a very unpleasant situation, and when social services come knocking it'll be the OP and partner who'll get blamed. Best to flag it up anonymously.

In reply to wercat:

Screaming/shouting at a youngster - or children of any age, especially for long periods, and saying the things described in his 3rd paragraph are unacceptable. There is no need for it and no excuse. It is emotional abuse......

In reply to Lemony:

You did the right thing. I have two kids (3 and 5) and the thought of children like them being abused in the way you described is heartbreaking. It certainly won't be easy for the family, but intervention may well be the first step towards a better outcome for all of them.

I'm glad there are people like you and your gf in the world.

In reply to Lemony:

Good to hear that you've contacted the nspcc and it is now being dealt with by child services.
You have probably made a huge positive change in that child's life.

We were in a similar position a few years ago when our analogue baby monitor picked up another transmitter in another house.
We heard very similar things: a mum unable to cope and screaming and shouting at a baby who was left to cry etc. I'd just had my refresher child protection at work so had the referral number to hand so we rang it. We had the police round to ours to monitor the monitor (as it were) and they contacted the local community nurse as she'd know the newborns in the area. We heard nothing more but I have never regretted that call.

In reply to Lemony:

The referral to Children's Social Care via the NSPCC will trigger a multi agency strategy meeting ( police / social services /health / family support / education / Nursery etc.) for professional's to share what information they hold, if any, on this family. Combined with your information these professional will decide which agency is best placed to become involved if that is what is decided / needed.

By making your referral these kids will now be on the radar, if they are not already.

In reply to Lemony:
You are not overreacting. You are showing very commendable concern for the welfare of the children.

Reporting it would have an almost immediate effect in helping to mitigate the children's distress, but please be wary that the parents will most likely want to blame someone for reporting them. That would be one of the immediate neighbours within earshot of the screaming - one of which, unfortunately, is you. Reassurances of anonymity from Social Services in this case only stretches beyond that which can be immediately heard.

Because of that, I am in the 'friendly chat over a coffee' camp, at least initially. Admittedly it's a slow process, during which time the children could continue to be emotionally abused. But chatting with the mother would help to maintain good neighbour relations for the future, if you and they intend to stay there.

I wouldn't go straight into complaining over the coffee about their shouting, but instead maybe chat about other kids somewhere in your own family (when the time is right), in the hope that she will be prompted to do likewise about her own. You could take this further by having a heart to heart about the way your family drives you to distraction sometimes (even if they don't) - again in the hope she will open up about the strained relationship she has with her own kids. If she is open about the dysfunctional relationship that she clearly has with them, she might even be open to a suggestion from you of getting help. Only suggest this tentatively when you know she trusts you.

If that doesn't work, or if she is aggressive towards you, then there would be no other choice but to go over their heads to report it.

In reply to AllanMac:
That sounds like a good plan.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


You've taken that spectacularly out of context!

Did I even suggest doing nothing about it.

My sadness is about the fact that people can live so close and yet be so distant.

But I guess we can claim it's OK as long as we devolve responsibility for the wellbeing of those around us to others

In reply to Dave Perry:
you might have noticed that I have personal experience of this

so I do not need lectures. You'll also notice that I have been very careful in my comments


tho the dislikers ? whether it is my own experiences you were disliking or the fact I disclosed them?

In reply to timjones:

Hmm, I apologise if I misconstrued what you said. But I'm still not sure I agree with your clarification - if you're sorry that we don't all live in villages where we all know each other and can take somebody aside who is going off the rails and say 'Nah then, lad, must look after bairns, tha' knows', then I agree. But was the world ever like that? And isn't it positive that there are professionals to deal with this sort of situation?

In reply to Lemony:

I think you've taken a very appropriate course of action - hopefully the fact you contacted via the NSPCC will put some discretion into the process. I don't care how many people dislike me for saying that - bring it on you cowards!

In reply to Lemony:

I am late to this thread.

I think you did the right thing.

I intervened in a violet incident with a neighbour once. I had some grief between that and his trial. That would not stop me intervening again.

Hopefully this willl have no come back on you - play it cool and dumb with them. The one piece of advice I have - just in case - is that if you do get any grief from your neighbours, keep a detailed written log of all their actions and any effect(s) it has on you and those in your household. If any witnesses are present and consent, then note their details and get them to sign the log. This log will be your best friend in terms of keeping perspective and seeking help with your situation from the council / the police / social services / their parole officer (delete as appropriate).

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Yrs

Yes it is positive that there are professionals to deal with such issues but I still find it immensely sad that it's possible to live so close to someone with so little social interaction.

I've usually tended to wind up giving lifts to the shops, helping sweep chimneys etc when I've lived right next door to other people. Is that really a village thing?

In reply to timjones:

We're good friends with one set of neighbours - been on holiday together on a couple of occasions. On the other side they're Jehovah's Witnesses - 'nuff said. We don't have much in common.

In reply to wintertree:


I'd be lying if the fact that we're looking to move halfway across town hadn't factored into the decision.

In reply to wercat:

Whilst your other responses seem reasonable, its your post at 1116 that I totally disagree with, although I may misunderstand you.

You state that "we don't know all the circumstances" as if to possibly excuse the behaviour. I disagree. There is no excuse for abusing children.

Apologises if I've got the wrong end of the stick in terms of your intended meaning.

D.

In reply to Lemony:
I'd have a duty to report, I think you should do so. I've worked in child and adolescent mental health for 20+ years, and have seen first hand the devastating effects of such abuse.
ETA:

Sorry, further reading shows you have.

Well done for making a brave step, you have possibly saved a child's life.

In reply to Lemony: well done. Keeping quiet about abuse can have devasting consequences and many people are not brave enough to get involved. I think when children's welfare is at stake you have to step up, just as you have.

In reply to Lemony:

Report it to social services , it gets logged and will flag up if other , minor incidents occur ( visits to A&E etc) . Every case report for every child death has emphasised the multiple events / situations missed to stop it because people thought it too minor , not their business or that someone else would do it .
Good on you for your concern. You are not over reacting. I've never once shouted at my child beyond a ' oh for goodness sake ......' Followed by a cuddle.

Report it

In reply to Lemony:
Had a very similar situation in our street. Single mum (&boyfriend) of one naughty kid shouting loud enough at him that I could here it in my house across the parking area that seperates us. I say naughty as I've had words with the kid myself about minor things (kicking ball against my fence) and he's the sort that will then deliberately annoy(prob attention seeking due to shit mother). He's also been caught pissing against neighbours cars etc) when it became clear that this shouting and screaming was regular my neighbour and i decided to report it to the council and police both as a noise issue and a child protection issue.

However it transpired that the day before my neighbour on the other side did report it (she's a child protection barrister incidentally), and the police turned up as did social services. there was a row in the street with one of mother's neighbours being accused of being a grass (wrongly but also was getting round to it)

This was six months ago

The situation is under review, and it has to be said since the visits she sees to be coping better (she seemed at the end of her tether before) and both her and the child seem much happier and we no longer endure the noise and worry. Boyfriend still there too.

Obviously I know nothing about what was said or done, but it appears for now that a successful intervention has been made and all are better off for it.

Make it official - it's the only way you'll be able to live with yourself if your concern proves correct

In reply to David Martin:


In my recent experience (above) my local response seems to have provided support, stern warning, and follow up monitoring, and a much happier less shouted at child. so thats at least one success - which means its worth trying, and getting the social involved means they will take the right course of action and take a professional view (most of the time)

In reply to gribble:
Should / would the SW contact the nursery/ school to discuss the situation with them?

They might be in a better position to tell if the kids are interacting 'normally' with other kids and adults. And of course could spot physical signs.

My wife is a council registered child minder , and my daughter is a speech therapist, my sister a Audioligist, and I understand all are given 'some training' on spotting 'issues'.

In reply to Lemony:

You did the right thing. I did a similar thing recently when I heard a neighbour (not very close but whilst walking round the block) shouting to someone in the house that he would "fcking kill them if they did that again". I didn't know if a Young person was present (they do have kids) but this counts as domestic violence and so I reported it to police 101. It could have been a one off but now it has been logged and the police can check their database and see if this is part of a pattern. Even if it wasn't aimed at a YP they have a right to grow up in an environment where they feel safe.

In reply to Lemony:

You have done the right thing.

In reply to Jim C:

The social worker would first check if school or nursery or anyone else had already reported concerns, then visit the family. They may well speak to the school etc as well. They might also refer to one of the befriending type organisations already mentioned. They might be able to offer a support worker, or parenting classes or help with accessing support.

In reply to wercat:

It would be good if people could realise that contacting children's services isn't about shopping people, or punishing them or taking children away. It's about putting the support in place to avoid situations getting to that stage is the majority of cases.

In reply to Lemony:

Well done. You did the right thing.

In reply to David Martin:


It depends how you measure success. As another poster has said since, the referral would trigger a multi agency strategy meeting to share information known abut the family. I have seen many successful endings where parents accept the support and the children now live a happier life.

They may decide a social worker needs to be involved, or alternatively that it can be managed at a lower level on a voluntary basis where the parents are asked to accept support. If they don’t, then they can’t just tell Social Services to get out of their lives.


>>I'm a bit doubtful about the impact a well-meaning but possibly toothless social services visit will have. Do they have the scope to escalate things because kids are being yelled at?

Yes they do, depending on the evidence that the children may be subject to emotional harm.

In reply to Dave Perry:
Thanks. Perhaps I have a habit of being too succinct - to be clear I was never advocating doing nothing, just concerned about what form the intervention would take.


as regards my own recollection of being screamed at by a hysterical parent is that it didn't feel to great but was far more easily shrugged off than when parents yell at each other which, frankly, totally terrified me and affected me far more

(By the way, I'm not just saying normal shouting, medical intervention eventually happened)

In reply to marsbar:

agreed, but there have been some terrible happenings in the past, much publicised. Could it be that there has been too much publicity? At the same time the family courts don't have a great reputation for transparent justice.

In reply to Lemony:

Report it to the Police and Social services. Both are really crap when it comes to dealing with child protection (see SCR ad nauseum) and if you only report it to one the chance of a failure to communicate cannot be overlooked.

The sad thing is that these sort of cases are two a penny and there's little that the system can do on a wider scale* as the system cannot cope with the entrenched underclass that has developed over the last 30 or so years.

There has always been poverty in the UK but historically the corrosive effects were ameliorated by stronger societal binds and bonds, the desire for self improvement and 'I don't want my son going down the pit etc', this now seems to be absent.

In short, and I know it's not PC, but chavs will always be chavs and it is the children, wider society and us poor tax payers that pay the price. In 15 years time the chances are the children will be dependent on benefits and doing the same to their children.

What's the solution, I've no idea but doing the same thing at ever increasing costs is not the answer.

* There was a very effective project in Glasgow which in effect took you single mothers and housed them in what effectively was a cross between a halls of residence and a jail with onsite social workers, teachers and so on.

In reply to timjones:

I think it might be a village thing, or perhaps an 'un city thing'. I don't seem to have a lot of interaction with my neighbours, while I'd quite like to. I'll stop and chat to the elderly lady who has time for you, but it can 'seem' like other people are often focused on the next thing they have to do and will only stop and chat briefly - that lives are lived along side one another without crossing particularly. I plan to work on being more neighbourly this year when I hopefully have more time. My immediate neighbour seems to chat briefly before scuttling off.

In reply to wercat:

Children's services can never tell their side of the story due to the confidentiality for the children. Meanwhile parents can go to the newspapers with totally untrue stories about how their children were taken away for absolutely no reason.

I acknowledge that bad things happened in the past, but at the moment the care system is under so much pressure that if anything it takes too long to get a child removed. There is no space for children that don't desperately need to be there.

In reply to Peccavitoo:

It's not just poverty though. I worked with children in the system with some very middle class parents who couldn't or wouldn't keep their children safe. Domestic violence and sexual abuse are not a chav problem and are seen across the board.

In reply to marsbar:


I've worked with some who had such loose emotional ties to their kids, that the children grew up feeling unloved and unwanted, despite having lashings of expense sent on them as a substitute. It cascades down the generations.


>Domestic violence and sexual abuse are not a chav problem and are seen across the board.

Agreed.

In reply to marsbar:

There are no easy answers for sure. My neighbour who I know well , are noisy,and the kids are badly behaved, but the kids are fine, and the parents a lovely , loving couple.
If we moved away, and new neighbour's moved in though, the new neighbour's might get the wrong idea.

In reply to marsbar:

yes, I can appreciate that it is a very difficult area indeed where any decision to act or not to act may have huge consequences causing pressures even before you consider the extra difficulties caused by restricting spending on public services.

In reply to Lemony:

Well done for this. You have done the right thing.

If the parents are struggling and need support they will be offered this now.

If they are actually just a bit chaotic and loud but doing a good job of caring for their kids overall then they will get some contact from maybe their health visitor, school nurse, GP, or social worker, asking how things are going and nothing further will happen.

Either way you have helped to ensure that the children are safe.

David (Child protection trained A&E doctor)