UKC

Hi all,

My better half and I are off to hike the Pacific Crest Trail in about a month. Come May we'll be hitting the High Sierras, which have had more snow this past winter than basically anyone can remember.

The high passes are supposed to look like this:

youtube.com/watch?v=7tyEgQvtOtk&

but this year there's a real chance they'll look more like this or worse (which I think might be shot in the same place):

youtube.com/watch?v=V_tMtCjq57Y&

I've read (and agree with) all the screaming "no's" about linking walkers to each other with no anchor. That isn't what this post is about. What I'm wondering is whether there is merit in taking a few slings/'biners so as to build a belay at the start of the slippery part, "lead" across, and then to the same at the far side to bring "up" the second? At no stage would anyone belay off harness (which would likely be a 2m sling and locker).

I have basic indoor climbing skills, some leading, but all indoor so I've never built a belay. But I'll be on trail for months on end with plenty of time to practice before we get to anything tricky enough to actually need them (plus they'll only be holding a slip). So, if anyone has read this far:
- is there merit in this idea?
- would you take anything other than slings (e.g. an ice screw? I expect placement need more knowledge than I'm going to have)
- If we take axes (it will depend on conditions) how likely is it that a novice would build a successful T-slot anchor in snow?

Thanks!
Martyn

In reply to MartynH:

I'm far from expert but I've led unroped 'walking' groups across similar (short) sections like video 2 in the Alps. Depending on the run-out and consequences of a slip (annoying? fatal?), instead of worrying about belaying have you considered packing the lightest axe you can find and some light, probably flexible crampons and ditching them/posting somewhere for collection when the possibility of needing them is over?

What do others think? Is this rubbish advice?

In reply to Rip van Winkle:

The other option for a short passage like that is to carry boot spikes, which are lightweight crampons made with stretchy rubber that just pop over your shoes.

In reply to MartynH:
Looking at the images it's likely to be deep soft wet snow to step right down into in the afternoon, rock hard frozen solid in early mornings. So time of day will matter. Plus if it's a worn trail there could be massive deep steps or a worn trench across it. Crampons or axe will be of limited benefit and may only add to confidence. If you have never ice axed braked in practice before, then the chances of performing one in anger are some what reduced.

I don't personally think you need to worry over it.

In reply to summo:

Thanks Summo, that seems the consensus on ice axes: everyone who's never used one seems to think they'll save the day, everyone who knows what they're doing says 'get training or they're not much help'. The second message was hammered home pretty hard in the BMC Winter Skills lecture that set the scene for our intense scrutiny of snowfall reports since November!

The pass everyone talks about is at about 13,000 ft, will be very heavily trafficked (about 50 hikers per day for most of the season) and is at the top of a long ice chute so a fall would be a significant cartwheel risk without successful arrest.

Unless there's a massive early spring heat wave I suspect we'll have to get some light (aluminium, e.g., Petzl Snow Leopards) crampons for the high sections to replace the micro-spikes that we'd otherwise have carried. The rope idea would give my better half in particular a better sense of security because of the length of the slide. BUT, the two person crossing I have in mind doesn't seem to match any of the mountaineering techniques I've tried to read about. Don't really want to be the person who tries to invent a safety system... I suspect rescue teams have names for them!

In reply to MartynH:

In light of already having crampons with you and possibly poles. Then steady measured steps across with someone looking up for rocks, rather than trying to dash across it, will serve you well. If it has that much traffic I don't there is much risk of you will be breaking trail.

In reply to MartynH:

Martyn: I don't really understand 'What I'm wondering is whether there is merit in taking a few slings/'biners so as to build a belay at the start of the slippery part, "lead" across, and then to the same at the far side to bring "up" the second? At no stage would anyone belay off harness (which would likely be a 2m sling and locker).'

Are suggesting that you will make an improvised harness from a sling and krab or will you be belaying directly from the anchors (using Italian hitch?)?

The run out from that section looks like it could be long and leading into rocks so not somewhere to fall from; and not somewhere to be unbelayed if you think you might take a tumble. And bear in mind how far you would go if you come off from near the far side (nearly 20 meters?). That's not 'just a slip'

Having said all that I would guess that you will probably find a well worn 'path' across unless you are really early in the season.

I personally would disagree that an ice axe is of limited or no value. They aren't just carried to perform self-arrests! Have a look at video two; the axe gives you a 'third leg' aiding stability, it provides you with a hand hold, it can be used to improve steps where you cant kick them and, if needs must, you can even carve a bloody great trench for you and your partner. Way more use than walking poles on that section. Oh and an ice screw would be pretty useless in that context!

In reply to Andy Say:



I agree with Andy. An ice-axe would be of good value here, it will give you stability and hence confidence! I would carry a lightweight one - they don't weigh that much.

In reply to Andy Say:

Thanks Andy and Heike, and everyone. Oddlly enough it is nice to hear more experienced folks saying "meh, that's not so hard" about the trail sections that have us quivvering.

My thought was to belay from the anchor with an munter (which I think is the same thing as an Italian hitch?), with the person crossing using a sling & krab for a harness (or just roped around the waist I guess). You're right, by the end of the run out there's a whole lot of rope behind you, but the theory was that like a crevasse fall the rope might provide friction cutting into snow so you'd be less likely to trace the whole semi-circle on the ice/snow below. Since even rope is probably overkill a deadman or something in the middle seems completely OTT and more likely to cause a fall placing/removing it than it would add in terms of protection.

For an ice axe, the Camp Corsa Nonotech gets pretty ordinary reviews, but would presumably do the 'third leg' job as well as anything. Petzl Glacier Literide (+100g) is said to be much better, Petzl Summit (+150g) better still. My question is now evolving a long way from the original but we'll need to choose ahead of time for mail order mid-trail - so - any thoughts on those (or other) lightweight alternatives would also be greatly appreciated!

Martyn

In reply to MartynH:

Martyn,
In terms of rope use the Italian and Munter hitches are one and the same. And I personally would tie the rope round my waist rather than try to improvise a harness; it's just another thing that could go wrong. As I said above - you'll probably find a nice beaten trail though

Of those axes I'd maybe go for the Literide. It has a reasonable adze which is what you would use for chopping nice big steps and a straight shaft; the cranked shaft of the Summit (which does have a better looking head) might actually reduce the feeling of stability if you're not used to it.

Just personal thoughts you understand......

In reply to MartynH:
Just to point out that a light ice axe will be of limited use in ice, a swing needs a bit of weight behind it. The snow in the video looks fairly benign, long pole on the downhill side while placing feet firmly/kicking steps is the way to do that. If conditions were thinner, icier and rockier due to melting and refreezing, then that crossing could get a lot worse.

In reply to MartynH:

Tie directly into your rope using a bowline.

Bare in mind that slipping off that shut will result in a long swinging pendulum fall - so the belayer needs to above the other to lessen the swing if possible.

It would also be possible to rig a 'handrail' out of the rope too - secured at both ends at your belays.

That said the snow in the second video is soft. The guy was wearing trainers and even in the shadow he was able to kick great holes in it.

In reply to mysterion:

Just to clarify, my earlier post suggestion of axe/crampons was more to address the confidence issue than a technical need. I've twice had to try an ice-axe arrest in anger. Once it worked, once it didn't. But - Mysterion - pole on the downhill side? I was taught *never* to do this with a single pole or axe. If your weight is on the downhill support and it gives way, you slip or fall outwards and down. Which is why you always have your axe on the uphill side. I agree that with 2 poles you'd have one on each side, natch. What's the current ML advice on this?

In reply to Rip van Winkle:
No idea what ML advice is but you don't put weight on the pole, you place it while upright with your weight through your feet. The pole is a handrail for correcting small movements before they become big movements. If you have an axe then yes place that on the shorter uphill side too and move with three points of contact. Engage loop on axe but not on pole.

In reply to MartynH:
A quick thanks again all - we're resolved to have both poles and axe so as to have flexibility over changing conditions. Held one for the first time today (I know, numpty novices getting ahead of themselves...) and a Grivel 58cm seemed a more comfortable length than 53cm - I needed to hunch a little/tuck my elbows to catch the shorter shaft. Will seek more advice but that probably rules out the really light axes anyway. (I'm 5' 9" / 175 cm)

Interesting question whether to ditch the second pole whilst using an axe. I can foresee the discipline not to weight the downhill pole giving way to nervousness in exactly the trickier places where you need to get your technique right.

In reply to Dave Perry:

In a good year the trail should be trainers the whole way. Frustratingly this year is 200% of average snow depth so it'll be a whiter (more beautiful) but also much more technically demanding exercise!