UKC

One HVS by end of summer?

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 xbraddersx 17 Mar 2017
Hello,

Looking for some advice - have set a target this year of climbing one HVS by the end of summer. Currently boulder (indoors) mostly so would like to get some help on making the transition.

Necessary background - have been climbing about 3 years now, boulder indoors reliably at about V3/4 (can get most reds at the Depot for comparison, have got some V5-V7 purples but probably quite low in the grade). Boulder outdoors about f6A/ f6B (don't have any projects). Indoor lead climb at around 6b, can get all the moves on 6cs but with rests.. Obviously my endurance is an issue, as well as my fear of falling.

Last summer I started leading properly outdoors after not being overly fussed about it. I've been terrified on quite a few grit S/HS (my logbook lists a few but I'm not great at updating it) and it's almost put me off. I'm finding grit quite hard, but since I'm based in Liverpool it's quite convenient and my friends all like it. What is the best approach? Should I just continue to tackle S/HS and then the occasional VS and work from there?

Thanks for reading
 mrphilipoldham 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

You can climb better indoor than I (but then I've only been twice in the last 12 months) so simple, regular mileage up to VS should see you getting up HVS by the end of summer. Do you prefer slabby routes or steep, strength based ones? There's some right HVS pumpy well protected battles out there for the latter, and some physically easier but mentally taxing slabby routes for the former.
 Don't like e3s 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

What area do you climb ?? Or what rock do you want to do a hvs on ??
6
OP xbraddersx 17 Mar 2017
In reply to mrphilipoldham:
> Do you prefer slabby routes or steep, strength based ones? There's some right HVS pumpy well protected battles out there for the latter, and some physically easier but mentally taxing slabby routes for the former.

I've seconded (clean) Three Pebble Slab and Sunset Slab for instance, but I'm not sure whether I would have lead them! I think maybe in the middle? In general I prefer the start to be more difficult, which is I guess because of my preference for bouldering.

In reply to Don't like e3s:

> What area do you climb ?? Or what rock do you want to do a hvs on ??

I think I'd like to climb HVS on grit because I've had trouble with it. I've been to the Lakes a few times and find the rock a bit easier (with the small footholds).
Post edited at 10:42
 The Ivanator 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

As pointed out above go for something that plays to your strengths. Make sure you are confident in your gear before pushing your Trad grade (get an experienced climber to second and rate your gear). With your bouldering level you should have no technical problems climbing HVS, but if grit is not your thing then there are other options, in Snowdonia I'd rate Herford's Crack (HVS 5a) as a great, well protected climb at the grade, bit of jamming/crack climbing technique helpful.
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 charley 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Personally, I wouldn't limit yourself to just S/HS. There are some cracking lower grade routes around. I would forget about ticking grades for a while and just go out and get mileage in. You'll learn something from every lead you do and get more experienced with trad and placing gear. Build up your confidence, have fun. You should easily get to HVS in a few months.
 mrphilipoldham 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Tody's Wall (HVS 5a)
Chequers Buttress (HVS 5a)
Neb Buttress Direct (HVS 5a)
Bamford Rib (HVS 5a)

Some of my first HVSs, all well protected and pleasant climbing.
 CurlyStevo 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:
Try climbing rock with edges if you want to play to your strengths, quarried grit is better than natural in this regard. Limestone, slate and rhyolite tend to be better still.

Alternatively screw the grades and learn how to climb rock properly, work your weaknesses and learn from the rock. Climb as many rock types and styles of climbs as you can. This would be my preferred approach.
Post edited at 11:02
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 Fredt 17 Mar 2017
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Three Pebble Slab.
It's the first HVS I ever did, and really just an exposed VS.
16
 Doug 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Back in the 70s when I started to climb, it seemed that Brant Direct was a frequent choice - I've not climbed it for years but from memory its well protected with steep bridging moves & frequent good rests

Brant Direct (HVS 5a)
 CurlyStevo 17 Mar 2017
In reply to Doug:

Yeah its probably mid grade and a bit awkward climbed with bridging and jamming. I udged/chimneyed the majority of it and it felt about VS that way. Good gear if you can get in to a comfy position to place it.
1
In reply to xbraddersx:

Pisa Super Direct (HVS 5a). Well protected, middle of grade, very good. Not tame, but fine at grade.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=15072
[I'm having a senior moment: how do you do the links to climbs the simple way here?]
Post edited at 11:12
 slab_happy 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

> What is the best approach? Should I just continue to tackle S/HS and then the occasional VS and work from there?

Yup! You've already answered your own question, pretty much.

Speaking as someone who's been making a similar transition (predominantly indoor boulderer to trad climber), a few bits I can add:

You've probably got more than enough strength already, so what you need to focus on is learning and the mental side -- getting as much outdoor mileage as you can, working out how to get the hang of gritstone and practicing your gear placements.

In my experience, grit is the most different from indoor climbing, so don't be discouraged by that; you just have to put in the time to learn how to use it, and specifically practice skills you don't learn indoors, like all the forms of jamming.

(I got kind of fixated on getting on the least "indoors-y" routes I could find, because it's all the stuff I can't practice indoors. And this has served me well -- although it may be losing me climbing partners after I drag them up too many hideous offwidths ...)

If you're a nervous new leader, you need to spend as much time as possible leading. Drop the grade down as low as you need to feel that you've got a decent safety margin, practice your gear placements and build up your confidence (and expect to get hammered when the odd HVD or S will throw something at you that you've never encountered indoors).

Don't get fooled by "I can boulder [X] which translates in this table to tech grade [Y] therefore I should be climbing trad grade [Z]". Start every trip with some warm-up leads before you try to get on your "top" leading grade -- I find it takes a few routes for my brain to switch on, though that may just be me.

Lead lots and lots of Severes (and VDiff and HVD, which may sometimes feel harder) until it starts to feel comfortable, then lead lots of HS, then VS (and keep doing the Severes and Hard Severes!), and so on. Gritstone gives you so many wonderful classics at these grades, so it's not a hardship -- take your time to enjoy the scenery on the journey, so to speak. The UKC logbook is useful here just as a way of seeing how much volume you're building up, and how wide the base on your route pyramid is.

Don't fixate too hard on "HVS by the end of the summer"; it's nice to have a goal, but you've not "failed" if you're making progress and learning and enjoying yourself but haven't hit HVS just yet.

If you chose, you could pick an HVS (maybe one you've already seconded), put a top-rope on it, work it to death then headpoint it, and you'd technically have "done an HVS" -- but it wouldn't have improved your skills as a trad leader at all. Personally I wouldn't choose that approach.

> I've been terrified on quite a few grit S/HS

That will happen ...

(Looking at your logbook -- was one of them Grey Slab, by any chance? Because it *is* a gearless thrutchstravaganza.)
OP xbraddersx 17 Mar 2017
In reply to slab_happy:
I've read everyone's posts, and they've been really helpful, thank you


This was super helpful! Yes, I led grey slab, but I refused to go into the thrutchy-crack (since I had no idea what to do), so I stood up on the slab next to it and crossed over. Felt very committing, since as you said, I had no gear. I'm pretty sure I didn't do the move that was intended, but it felt okay I think I spent maybe 15 minutes considering it though on the ledge :P
Post edited at 11:29
 CurlyStevo 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

As for objectives to aim for on grit - this Great North Road (HVS 5a)

Its one of the best single pitch climbs I've done anywhere. You aren't forced in to any particular climbing style as it can be climbed a number of different ways and it has good gear.
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> As for objectives to aim for on grit - this Great North Road (HVS 5a)Its one of the best single pitch climbs I've done anywhere. You aren't forced in to any particular climbing style as it can be climbed a number of different ways and it has good gear.

As you say, a good one to aim for, but it's quite high in the grade (i.e. about 2/3 of the way up, imho )
 stevieb 17 Mar 2017
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Yes agree with this. Quarried grit has more edgy holds and less rounded holds than natural grit, so you may be more confident on it. I always struggle on natural grit, unless I get a lot of miles in.
There are a lot of good short VSs and below at Lawrencefield to help you get more confident leading.
Not sure it has a good HVS though. There are also lots of safer feeling routes at Froggatt than your examples to gain confidence.
 GrahamD 17 Mar 2017
In reply to Fredt:

> Three Pebble Slab.It's the first HVS I ever did, and really just an exposed VS.

Please don't post this sort of bollocks when people are asking for sensible advice.
 GrahamD 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Knights Move is a lot of people's choice for first HVS. Not only is it very amenable, its also a nice route.
OP xbraddersx 17 Mar 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

Also I've seconded it (clean) already, and I know I wouldn't be ready for the lead yet.
 BnB 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

> Also I've seconded it (clean) already, and I know I wouldn't be ready for the lead yet.

Then aim to lead plenty of HSs and then move steadily onto VS. Two brilliant ones at the same crag are

Manchester Buttress (HS 4b)
Robin Hood's Right-hand Buttress Direct (HS 4a)

and for the would-be Severe leader, this is the best route in the world, sandwiched between the two:

Black Hawk Hell Crack (S 4a)

Oh, the joy of all that gear, every inch of the way,

 spenser 17 Mar 2017
In reply to Doug:

I thought there was a rest almost every move on it, cracking route, just need your calves to be up for it as mine were dieing the day after. The offwidth pitch of Spectre (HVS 5a) was my first, quite safe if you can reach high to place high gear from jams and then retreat back down before committing to the layback.
 The Ivanator 17 Mar 2017
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'm having a senior moment: how do you do the links to climbs the simple way here?

When you post there are crag or climb link boxes above, start typing the climb name into the box then select from the drop down menu.

 David Staples 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Getting mileage on grit will help you move up the grades and feel more confident, transitioning from indoor to outdoor takes time, especially on trad. Getting used to placing gear on lead and moving on rock is something a climber is always learning and trying to improve. Start on routes you feel comfortable on and after completing a handful move up to the next grade. Just repeat this process until you are feeling good on VS. With you indoor leading grade and bouldering grade as they are at the moment you are certainly strong enough for HVS and possibly even E1 Though I would not recommend attempting anything that hard until you are confident leading trad.

You could give Robin Hood's Cave Innominate/Harding's Finish (HVS 5a) at Stanage a go. It is two routes which can very easily be climbed as one. Robin Hood Cave Innominate is VS 4C then the top section is the Harding's finish which gets HVS 5a. While the start traverse of the VS was (from memory) slightly bold I thought it was relatively easy andthe rest of the route was well protected and I thought quite soft for HVS.

The roof of the Harding's finish was very well protected and is only a couple of moves.

Cheers
David
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 jkarran 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Forget the arbitrary goal, you'll cruise it if this is for you and you'll get hurt trying if it isn't.

Just get out and trad climbing when you can, varied venues, stuff you fancy doing that feels under your control. Go have fun with mates and see where it takes you.

Lakes and N Wales are both pretty much on your doorstep and offer a variety of great trad experiences, don't just fixate on the grit.
jk
 Offwidth 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:
Find a good experienced climbing partner or hire one. I've helped people with your technical ability and concerns lead their first HVS onsight on their first day outdoors.
Post edited at 13:22
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In reply to The Ivanator:

> I'm having a senior moment: how do you do the links to climbs the simple way here?When you post there are crag or climb link boxes above, start typing the climb name into the box then select from the drop down menu.

Ah, thanks. Easy when you know how ...

Test:
Pisa Super Direct (HVS 5a)

 Owen W-G 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

My tuppence:

Climb on something other than grit! Don't give up grit but give yourself a more varied diet. North Wales should definitely be on your regular radar.Look at crags like Tremadog, Dinas Cromlech, Dinas Mot etc to get your VS mileage up, routes of all styles, angles, rocktypes and length.

HVS progression will then happen by itself.
 Rocknast 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Hi!

I would just echo what most posts have explained and try and not limit yourself to climbing just S/HS routes. Try and get some more experience with safe VS routes as to be honest there's many occasions where HVS routes don't seem so much of a step up from the pumpy VS ones.

When the time does come to try your first HVS lead then try and choose a route which contains your climbing strengths. This may mean that you will be initially limiting your development by not focusing as much on your weaknesses but the compromise is taking on the route with much more confidence and a better mental state, therefore greatly increasing your chance of success. Choose a route you think you will enjoy too as that's also what climbing is all about.

Happy climbing!

J
 Jon Stewart 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Very hard to say. You've got plenty of strength to throw at the problem, and people take to the other stuff that trad requires faster than others.

I'd advise you to try harder and harder routes (preferably safe ones if you're going to fall off) until you get stuck and need to get more mileage to move up. It might be VS, or it might be E4 - see what happens.
 Skyfall 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

I suppose the obvious point is that, if you can boulder V3/4 and lead 6b, HVS should in theory be a piece of wotsit. Of course we all know that isn't the case but, technically, it should not be a problem at all.

As usual, the point is you need to build some experience and move up to HVS safely. Build you VS experience and then HVS. By all means, as is natural, start with soft VS's but then use that to move on into real mid grade VS's and so on. Do a lot and ideally different rock types.

Apart from being great climbing, grit has the advantage you can see the deal from below, psyche yourself for it, and get it over quite fast. So, it's not bad as a way for pushing your grade. However, as outcrop climbing (for which grading is traditionally tougher), it isn't easy. You also have more concern about groundfall.

Personally I prefer the longer routes in the Lakes or N Wales. Less technique driven than grit but a lot of the fun is the journey up the crag, sometimes just having to get on and do it when you find yourself a few pitches up, and simply more of an outdoor experience. Often less risk of groundfall. I've led my hardest grades in both environments.

More to the point, enjoy your climbing!
 slab_happy 17 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Yeah, Grey Slab struck me as an obvious example of the kind of route that will feel brutally harder than its alleged grade to someone who's mostly been climbing indoors (and that plus the gearlessness = terrifying).

Watch out for those HVD and Severe wide cracks! You may find you start to recognize certain phrases in guidebook descriptions that should act as warning signals, like "a very traditional route" ...

There are assorted excellent resources on how to jam, like the Wideboyz Crack School videos, but once you have a rough idea of what you're supposed to be doing, it's just a question of getting in the practice (which I'm still working on myself).

Conversely, there will be VS routes that will feel way way easier (and safer!) than something like Grey Slab (especially as you get better at reading the rock and more fluent and confident in placing gear).

So (thinking about this a bit) I'll qualify my earlier advice a bit -- it's still good to think in terms of building up your route pyramid and working on routes of increasing difficulty over time, but (once you're feeling relatively okay about your gear placement skills), don't think you *can't* hop on a VS if it looks like your style and the guidebook says it's well-protected.

A VS that's "indoors-y" in style (e.g. distinct holds you can pull on) may well be far easier for you than a Severe that's a holdless grovel.
In reply to xbraddersx:
Three things.

The advice about trying quarried grit is sound. Head for the Lancashire quarries: Anglezarke would be a good place.

And if you're in Liverpool, get down to Pexhill for some traversing. It'll give you strong fingers and neat footwork.

Finally, try routes at Tremadog. Christmas Curry / Micah Eliminate (HS 4b), Poor Man's Peuterey (S 4a) and Creagh Dhu Wall (HS 4b), classic climbs all, should be achievable for you and then, once you're used to the place, target Scratch Arete as your first HVS.

Good luck! You've got a terrific summer ahead of you.

T.
Post edited at 10:41
 slab_happy 26 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

Oh, a very belated thought! As you get comfortable on VS, keep an eye out for VS 5a routes. It often means there's very good gear, and/or that there's only one 5a move.

So you get to practice doing 5a moves while on the sharp end, but at a more modest overall level of difficulty/risk, and IMHO they're useful stepping stones.

Also, there are some fantastic routes at that grade.
 ianstevens 26 Mar 2017
In reply to GrahamD:
> Knights Move is a lot of people's choice for first HVS. Not only is it very amenable, its also a nice route.

Shame its a VS.
Post edited at 22:11
 GrahamD 27 Mar 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

Knights Move is HVS in all the guidebooks. I'd agree on another day on another crag it might have been given VS, but it wasn't. Grades are like that. There is an inevitable overlap between the top end of one grade and the bottom of another.
 slab_happy 27 Mar 2017
In reply to ianstevens:

Not really surprising that popular "first grade [X]" routes are usually going to be "soft [X]" or even borderline between that grade and the one below, though. Generally you don't try to break into a new grade by picking the most hard-as-nails brutal top-end examples to jump on.
 Duncan Bourne 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Fredt:

Don't you start
 Duncan Bourne 27 Mar 2017
In reply to xbraddersx:

1. How's your reach? This will determine if you breeze certain climbs or struggle.

2. There isn't much in HVS and VS in my experience. Treat them both the same and don't be put off if you fail on a VS. There are some VS climbs that can feel like E3 if you don't have the technique down (on grit this will be jamming and horrendous offwidths)

3. First HVS. Play to your strengths and bear in mind the lower the tech grade the less gear there is likely to be.

My first HVS was Libra at the Roaches. But I was confident on the day.
Knight's Move HVS 5a, in my guides is a soft touch and probably a good confidence builder. As is the Chant (though that may get VS now).
Tody's Wall would be another choice.
 ianstevens 28 Mar 2017
In reply to GrahamD:

> Knights Move is HVS in all the guidebooks. I'd agree on another day on another crag it might have been given VS, but it wasn't. Grades are like that. There is an inevitable overlap between the top end of one grade and the bottom of another.

I've just checked mine and you're right. My mistake! But yes, I would agree that Knight's Move would be tough at VS, and almost certainly falls into the overlap.
 BarrySW19 28 Mar 2017
In reply to Fredt:

> Three Pebble Slab.It's the first HVS I ever did, and really just an exposed VS.

Isn't that kind of the point of the British grading system? A VS with no gear is an HVS.

Personally, I'd rather my first HVS was something with harder moves but bomber gear. From my log, Aventura (HVS 4c) at Boulder Ruckle springs to mind.
 CurlyStevo 28 Mar 2017
In reply to BarrySW19:
I love Swanage but I think the lack of easy retreat and difficulties retrieving gear if the climb can't be completed (because of the overhanging nature of the climbs) make it a less than attractive proposition for grade pushing for most. That said the area suited my climbing style and once I was well accustomed with it I did lead as hard pitches there as on other rock types.

I fully agree with your point though that safe climbs are normally better to grade push although I guess it depends on the individual.
Post edited at 12:19

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