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BMC Membership not consulted, again

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 Tyler 27 Mar 2017
I don't remember being asked about this!
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-buys-crookrise-crag
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 Andy Johnson 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:

Can't tell if you are genuinely unhappy about this, trying to make some point about the Climb Britain thing, or just trolling.
 Luke90 27 Mar 2017
 Andy Say 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:

I was surprised too when I heard. But on asking it appears that extension of forestry might risk access to Crookrise. Hey, if i had the dosh I'd buy it! Better than Stanage....

I appreciate your question is about how far down the decision making process should go. So good question.
 Dave Garnett 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:
> I don't remember being asked about this!https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-buys-crookrise-crag

Get with the programme. Bolted gritstone is a serious gap in our competition preparation and the redevelopment of the new Crookrise facility will provide not only a state of the art training venue for our teams, but also a secure revenue stream from the admission fees.
Post edited at 16:57
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 Lemony 27 Mar 2017
In reply to andyjohnson0:

> or just trolling.

It's not trolling if you're over a certain age, it's "being mischievous".
 Lemony 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

> But on asking it appears that extension of forestry might risk access to Crookrise.

It's ok, someone could just accidentally set fire to it again...
 Offwidth 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

Asleep since last September or too busy making bad jokes around the no confidence motion?

Anyway its a brilliant crag, in some respects as good as anywhere on grit, albeit not as good overall as Stanage.
 Andy Say 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Lemony:

> It's ok, someone could just accidentally set fire to it again...

That was Great End I think. And also Pigeon Rock in the Mournes got well torched. Never knew Crookrise got burned?
 AlanLittle 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

Personally I thought it was a reasonably good joke.
 Andy Say 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

> Asleep since last September or too busy making bad jokes around the no confidence motion?Anyway its a brilliant crag, in some respects as good as anywhere on grit, albeit not as good overall as Stanage.

Que? Way better than Stanage though a tad smaller! I'd buy it! AND it's a good buy for the hillwalkers - great views...

But i WAS surprised initially about how it fitted in with the BMC crag purchase guidelines.
 Andy Say 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:

> I don't remember being asked about this!https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-buys-crookrise-crag

Ok. Would you expect to be consulted about such a proposal? And how?
Are you a regular attendee of Area Meetings? If not; how would you like to be 'asked'?
 james mann 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:

As I understand it, this was for a nominal fee and when this was stated at area meetings, people seemed generally pleased with the decision ala tremadog etc.

James
OP Tyler 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

I wasn't really making any point (well not in a serious way) just sharing some good news. With an oblique reference to 'What have the Romans ever done for us....'

Regardless, it's great news and a sign that the BMC have not taken their eye off the access ball in their dash to make climbing the next multi-platform, Red Bull sponsored extravaganza
1
OP Tyler 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Lemony:

> It's not trolling if you're over a certain age, it's "being mischievous".

I'm disappointed to have it confirmed I'm "over a certain age". Still, if it means I'll always be able to get a seat on the bus I won't complain.
caver 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:

Is it too late to add a motion to the AGM agenda that this should become the first bolted grit stone outcrop.
 Duncan Bourne 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:

A good move by the BMC I think.
 Andy Say 27 Mar 2017
In reply to caver:

> Is it too late to add a motion to the AGM agenda that this should become the first bolted grit stone outcrop.

Yes. However you could get it discussed in 2018.
 Tom Last 27 Mar 2017
In reply to james mann:

Not much chance of acquiring Vixen for a nominal fee is there, James?
 Andy Say 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tom Last:

No chance!
 Elfyn Jones 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:
Although not explicit in the BMC web article - there was a real threat to access here. Despite being on land mapped as open access there was a high probability that another (very interested) party would acquire the land and then apply for closure of the open access element. This is unfortunately allowed under the CROW Act for "reasons of health and safety" (that can include shooting) or for "land management" if the land owner could demonstrate that public access could impact on the management of the land. The landowner could also plant trees or even simply allow trees to grow there and this would then change the character of the land, such that it no longer qualifies as being open access as it would no longer be covered by vegetation that is predominately typical of "mountain, moor, down or heath". (In a way this is what happened at Vixen Tor - the landowner "improved" the land to such an extent that it no longer reached the criteria necessary to be open access land).

Elfyn Jones
BMC Access & Conservation Officer
 Andy Say 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Elfyn Jones:

Thanks for that insight, Elfyn.
 toad 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:
I'm in favour of this purchase, but here's a train of thought....

a special interest group was likely to buy the land and prevent another special interest group using the site. So that special interest group bought the site to prevent access for the first group. And of course our preferred group are a faceless national body. I can understand that might not go down well with locals
Post edited at 18:30
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 Tom Last 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

> No chance!

Aye, that's the truth of it
 james mann 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Tom Last:

This might prove slightly more tricky Tom.

James
 Paul Clarke 27 Mar 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

Hi Andy.
If you look around you can still find torched tree stumps going right up to the crag. Can't remember when the fire was but it did us all a favour!
 Tom Last 27 Mar 2017
In reply to james mann:

Hahaha, I've got faith in you James! Get to it man...
 Simon Caldwell 28 Mar 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

> But on asking it appears that extension of forestry might risk access to Crookrise.

When I asked I was told that it was shooting interests rather than forestry.

Either way it seems that the asking price was only £18K which in the scheme of things is a give-away
 Dave Garnett 28 Mar 2017
In reply to Offwidth:
> Anyway its a brilliant crag, in some respects as good as anywhere on grit, albeit not as good overall as Stanage.

It's just not as big as Stanage! It reminds me more of Froggatt but much, much quieter.

Anyway, a lovely crag in its own right and it has one of the best HVSs on grit - the Sole.
Post edited at 11:32
 lummox 28 Mar 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I'm glad the Red Bull BMC have secured access to Crookrise. If they could get subsidised beer in the pub in Embsay, even better...
 rj_townsend 28 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:

I don't remember being consulted about their latest stationary order either. Maybe we should insist that they request membership feedback on whether they order two boxes of paper clips or just the one.

Or perhaps, radically, we can let the BMC get on with the jobs they're paid to do whilst we go climbing. Perhaps to Crookrise.
 C Witter 28 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:

Tory-led austerity is leading to a serious threat of public land being sold off cheap and access rights being lost. If the only way of stopping landgrabs by private companies is for climbers, through their representative committee, to purchase land, with the explicit purposes of allowing common access and conservation, then this is exactly what the BMC should be doing.

In the meanwhile, we need to be campaigning against the defunding of agencies that conserve and protect rural space for public use and we need to highlight how damaging austerity is to our environment and our rights. Unfortunately, these cuts are not even visible to most people until it's too late.

E.g. see this: http://www3.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/consultation/responses/response.asp...
Anonymous 28 Mar 2017
In reply to C Witter:

I dunno but crookrise for 18k seems much better value than [not] climb britain for 33k!

[And before anyone says it's 25k and it was free money blah blah it is still _better_ value]
 Andy Say 28 Mar 2017
In reply to Anonymous:

Rylstone next!
 toad 28 Mar 2017
In reply to C Witter:

speaking of too late, that consultation ended yesterday, but I agree. It is profoundly depressing that local authorities are just looking at their statutory obligations and anything else, regardless of community benefit, is abandoned without a backward glance.
 andi turner 28 Mar 2017
In reply to rj_townsend:

Stationery.


My only concern is that they've bought a crag which only has permissive access to it. I'm interested to know what the plan is if this access is withdrawn?
 Andy Say 28 Mar 2017
In reply to andi turner:

That access is a cross CRoW access land. No probs.
 Bulls Crack 28 Mar 2017
In reply to Tyler:

I hear they want to go to the toilet next week - should they ask about that too?
 Simon Caldwell 29 Mar 2017
In reply to andi turner:

It's permissive access because the agreement was drawn up pre-CRoW so that takes priority. If the agreement is cancelled, then CRoW provisions take effect, so it will no longer be permissive but absolute.
 climbwhenready 29 Mar 2017
In reply to andi turner:

Barden Moor reverts to being CRoW land in 2018 when the access agreement expires.
 Mick Ward 29 Mar 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

> That was Great End I think. And also Pigeon Rock in the Mournes got well torched. Never knew Crookrise got burned?

I believe there was a fire down in the woods/boulders below, back in the 50s. Didn't Austin and his mates have to leg it?

May have been the 'Bradford Torch' getting 'warmed up' for activities in the 70s...

Someone suggested that an over-keen new router set fire to some vegetation on the Citroen wall at Pigeon and things got somewhat out of hand. If true, I'd be keen to have words with him/her. Have fond memories of this crag. Sure, cleaning new lines can be tedious (tell me about it!) but if you don't want to put in the work, leave it for someone else.

Mick

 Andy Say 29 Mar 2017
In reply to Mick Ward:

Pigeon Rock. I understand that all the 'oil-based' names relate to a couple of big drums of fuel emptied down the crag and then blue touch paper ignited. I have a name
 Mick Ward 29 Mar 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

Hmm... do you indeed? Citroen, the first route on the wall, was done by Davy Dick and Calvert Moore in 1964. (Just nod if it's the first and scratch your ear if it's the second.) I certainly never noticed fire-blackened rock back in the 60s but then I'm notably dozy. And I never heard any such rumour back then.

I remember being assured that Citroen was Mild VS by a future Mourne guidebook writer. Pre cams/tricams, there were just two pieces of pro in the entire route - both very high up - a little bootlace thread which you tied one-handed and a Moac, half-way in. Now HVS 4c with much better gear. Classic Mourne sandbagging which could have got someone killed.

Mick
 Andy Say 29 Mar 2017
In reply to Mick Ward:

No reaction to either of those names, Mick
 Mick Ward 29 Mar 2017
In reply to Andy Say:

Maybe best that I don't know... there have been enough grudges in Ireland without me adding to 'em.

Mick

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