UKC

Visiting Italian climber Michele Caminati climbed  on Monday 27th March. The following day, Michele went back on the route for photographs after top roping it again twice. Unfortunately, he fell from the crux and the resulting fall severed his rope, causing him to hit the ground. A...

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In reply to UKC News:

Bloody hell that was unlucky.

Best of luck for a speedy recovery.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

Get well soon. Amazing footage.

In reply to Owen W-G:

Yes it is. I'd probably never have thought of that happen to a rope like that.

My own broken wrist and fractured heel recovered okay, and a friend's broken heel did.

Hopefully he'll be as fortunate.

In reply to UKC News:

"don’t worry, mate, you’re in England"

Looks very unlucky to have the rope cut like that.

Best wishes for a good recovery.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Looks very unlucky to have the rope cut like that.

McClure used three ropes on the first ascent due to the fear of the rope dragging down the arête in the event of a fall: -

youtube.com/watch?v=QDTAKVUE_g4&


Hope Michele Camanati recovers quickly and credos for releasing the video!

In reply to UKC News:
Scary stuff, take care out there folks. Best of luck with the recovery Michele

In reply to FactorXXX:

Good vid and good foresight by Steve.

Anyone know how many ascents this has had now?

In reply to FactorXXX:

Did he tie the ropes out again or why does he top out only with the orange?

In reply to UKC News:

Food for thought, thanks!

Speedy recovery to the climber and belayer.

In reply to Spanish Jack:

I seem to recall that 2 of the ropes were attached with biners. Which he unclipped after all the hard climbing (and possible rope shearing fall) or something like that. Can be seen in some climbing video, for which it was filmed.

In reply to UKC News:
Lucky fella. Hope he heals up. Rarely ever hear stories of it going wrong on top end grit routes, especially from snapped ropes. For photos as well. Am I reading this correctly that he landed on his belayer? Could well have saved his life that, looks likes he's falling belly first with no helmet on. That video is grim watching!

In reply to captain paranoia:

Same story in two years time: 'sorry mate this ain't the EU any more'...

In reply to UKC News:

Ouch! Amazing footage though and really makes you think!

A very good decision it would seem to use 3 ropes on the first ascent.

In reply to FactorXXX:

Here's James Pearson's ascent too:

vimeo.com/60828896

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:

After watching that I reckon I'd use 5 ropes, maybe more...

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:


I guess if it's belayed in such a way that one comes tight first, then you'd do well to abrade through 2 ropes? Clearly a 3 rope minimum scenario now though for comfortable redundancy! Duct taping the corner of arete might be an idea too.

Anyway, all the best to Michele for a full recovery from what sounds a nasty break. Also, cause for some celebration that it wasn't a lot worse

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

One of which was coming from the top...

In reply to UKC News:

Amazing pics and footage!
Huge respect to Claudia aka "the human crashmat" for literally putting her neck on the line and breaking his fall. Hope you both heal up soon!

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

And I'm glad I'm not American and so never use a single rope as default.

In reply to UKC News:
"John Allen who was at the scene described a moment when Michele expressed his concern about having a lack of insurance, to which one of the Mountain Rescue team replied “don’t worry, mate, you’re in England.”"

Incredible stuff - well done MC on the initial (successful) ascent. Hope you get well soon.

Also, well done to our emergency services. Things like the NHS and Mountain Rescue make me hugely proud to this country. Good too see us looking after one another like this - and particularly, that we extend that care to friends from abroad.

In reply to Robert Durran:


"Michele said: “I went up in the European style, with only one 10mm rope and without a helmet. "

You do know he's Italian, don't you?! It's nothing to do with 'American'.

In reply to UKC News:

Very unlucky, but kudos for releasing the video for others. Of note; taken from the 2013 article on James Pearson's ascent (https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item/67844/elder_statesman_hxs_7a_for_james...

"The grade HXS is due to the route being relatively safe (unless the arete cuts your rope!)"

Best wishes for a speedy recovery!

In reply to Fraser:


Fair enough. Non-British then. I've only really trad climbed where there are locals climbing outside the UK in America, so think of single rope for trad as an American thing.

In reply to UKC News:

I had a rope cut through the sheath once (luckily the core was mostly still intact) when the second was seconding across a traverse somewhere in the Peak (can't remember the route) and fell off half way across.

I was belaying two inexperienced seconds so brought one up on each rope. The fall wasn't actually very far and the edge it cut on didn't actually look very sharp.

In reply to Elsier:


It is surprisingly easy and very instructive to saw through a taut rope on a sharpish but by no means razor edge of rock........

In reply to Robert Durran:


It can happen on relatively straightforward ground too

There was a fatal accident some years ago when a second fell off on the Knights Move pitch of Grooved Arete and the single rope was sawn through on the quite rounded arete before the belay

In reply to UKC News:

people laughed at McClure using 3 ropes I wonder if he knew something they didn't.... wishing a speedy recovery of course

In reply to Robert Durran:
You can cut a rope with thin cord by using it as a saw - it's not difficult. A friend fell the full length of the Cromlech in his youth. He was running 2 pitches together on Cenotaph Corner, and fell off near the top cutting his rope on the arete. He has some amazing scars on his legs and torso where the gear still clipped to his harness ended up inside his body. He was resuscitated 6 times en route to the ICU, these days it's no major surprise that his main sport is kayaking.

Edit: heal fast Michele and Claudia

In reply to Fraser:


Yes, I thought that. In my (admittedly limited) experience I recall twin ropes being quite common in the US. But as RD seems quite experienced (certainly more so than me) and seems to enjoy "going off on one (hope that's not an Americanism!)" I couldn't be arsed to disagree.

In reply to JanBella:


Totally, you have to wonder if the climber had seen any of videos of previous ascents and if so did he ever wonder why Steve Maclure went for three ropes and if it was wise going up with one.

I also wonder, given that he thought he'd need medical insurance in the UK, if he thought it wise to go climbing hard trad routes without having insurance?

In reply to Scotch Bingington:


Really? It is very unusual to see Americans climbing on double ropes in my experience. And apparently continental Europeans too. For rock climbing that is, not alpine stuff.


I wasn't "going off on one". I was making the serious point that a default of using double ropes might be very sensible given the possibility of one cutting through (not to mention all the other advantages).

In reply to danm: I'm guessing you mean Cemetery Gates not the single pitch corner

To all: Hope MC (& Claudia) recover soon.

If you watch the rope coming apart, the final cut looks to be when it snags on the Elder Crack arête jug. Also it looks like a fair bit of the initial fall was absorbed by the rope - probably thank goodness with respect to the injuries.

Steve's 3 ropes were all coming from the side so although he built in redundancy, all 3 could have cut through. I would have thought it would have been better to have had one coming from lower down (if a large cam is placeable there) merely to stop hitting the ground and one (or more) potentially cuttable ones from high up.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Yes, I always mix the two up! They wanted to do a re-enactment for some TV show back in the day (999?) but it was too traumatic for his belayer to consider revisiting and the climber for obvious reasons doesn't remember anything.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Our rope got trashed like this when working a route indoors. When hanging off the rope between attempts the taut rope was rubbing against a hold further down the route but nobody noticed at the time. When we lowered off we saw the rope was through the sheath and about 1/3 of the core in the spot it had been rubbing.

In reply to Ram MkiV:


On lead I hope?

I do feel sorry for the belayer! Caminati got off fairly lightly considering the fall.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Hell yeah! I wonder of the rope slowed him down before it parted?

In reply to Outside.co.uk:

Is she ok? I can only imagine anyone would instinctively do the same but 60kg weight landing on your from 10m is seriously gonna hurt. Sure beats watching someone crack their skull open in front of you tho.

In reply to UKC News:

did anyone else get the "lick my body challenge" video suggestion after it finished? Just me? :/

In reply to Stanners:


Recommended videos are based on your browsing history.....

In reply to Stanners:

Yes, as Shani states. It's based on your YouTube video history. What have you been watching?

In reply to FactorXXX:


Brilliant video - thanks for the link

Q: "Why are you using 3 ropes Steve?"
A: "Because I'm a complete wuss"

A more accurate answer might have been "because I'm a shrewd rock climber who knows a thing or two about rope dynamics and behaviour on a route like this......."

In reply to gethin_allen:


I'm quite sure he was wondering about the cost of the rescue, not the medical care bit. UK is *still* part of the EU so all emergency care should be covered by simply having a EHIC card (which I'm sure he did, after all it's free).

How ever, on quite a few locales including his home country rescue might not be free.

In reply to UKC News:

This video has to be the best demo ever of the danger of sharp edges to climbing ropes. Chilling.

In reply to danm:

"He was running 2 pitches together on Cenotaph Corner, and fell off near the top cutting his rope on the arete."
Doesn't sound like Cenotaph Corner - Cemetry Gates??

In reply to HeMa:


Fair enough, maybe it was lost in translation. I'm always quite cautious when it comes to travel insurance type thing. Although this probably means I get boned for cover I don't absolutely need I feel better having it.

In reply to HeMa:


The EHIC is free in the UK because qualification for the NHS is based on being a resident in the UK. Most other European countries (all?) have insurance-based health-care systems and the EHIC care is provided by the insurance provider, so it isn't free. It's normal to have to produce it to prove insurance when visiting any health provider, even in the home country.

Chris

In reply to Chris Shorter:

You sir, are incorrrect... and also have misunderstood the principles of EHIC. Not to worry though, it won't matter long for UK personnel though.

EHIC simple states that you get the exact same treatment and at the same exact price as as resident of said country would. And in majority of EU, emergency health care is either free or doesn't cost much. For reference, I have had the unfortunate situation where I have had to test how things work... In Sweden, Norway (although Norway is not part of EU), France and Malta. Friends have had to use services also in Spain and Italy. I have never paid a dime, and friends either a few euros, or not at all.

That said, most or some EU countries have a mixed set of both public (free or nearly free care for citizens and also for EHIC) and private (either spendy, or insurance). So again it depends, but perhaps checkin' before hand is wise (when ever you travel).

BTW. As stated, emergency care is free in Italy, but the rescue might be billed on you (though I seem to recall, that the billin' is only done in the case that you do not per se need rescue or emergency care).

Swiss is a bit different case, but then again they ain't in the EU.


Whops, my bad... EHIC is for EEC, not EU per se. So Swiss and Norway are included... And as stated, with EHIC you are entitled to the same service (and same price) as legal citizens/residence of said country. Which in Swiss means that rescue might not be covered (for which and insurance is rather helpful).

In reply to HeMa:


No Sir, I am not incorrect.

The emergency treatment may be "free" for the traveller (if it's free for locals) but the hospital/health service is supposed to invoice the insurance provider on the EHIC for the care costs. So, if you are from the UK the NHS gets the bill and most participating countries do this. The UK is also supposed to invoice for emergency treatment done for people from other participating countries but rarely does so in practice because it's too much trouble for them

Chris

In reply to Chris Shorter:

Which part of EHIC guarantees the same service level (and price) as for residents/citizens, you do not get.

So it depends on the country in question. But as stated above, most countries in EEC and also in EU actually have public health care, not insurance based.

So again, care is either free or subsidized with EHIC...
https://www.gov.uk/working-abroad/healthcare-and-insurance

In reply to HeMa:


Thank you, I fully understand it.

The point I am making is that for people from most participating countries it isn't actually free because they've paid health insurance that includes the EH1C cover.


Sorry but that's nonsense. Most have public health care systems but the finance is through insurance schemes, usually private. If you don't have the insurance (proved by the card) in many countries you will get no treatment, unless you pay for it.

In reply to Chris Shorter:


Nope, in many of the countries the care is paid by taxes... Hence the term Public health care.

And again, how much (if at all) you have to pay depends on the country. But with EHIC you pay the same as a resident of said country. As a case point, I listed a number of countries where I have has the pleasure of using health services, as have my friends. They have ranged from simple doc consultations to prolonged hospital stay after major surgery... none have involved either costs at all, or a small charge. Again, by the agreement, the costs are the same as for local residents.

In reply to HeMa:


......and in many it isn't. See the insurance-financed public health services in Germany, Czech Republic, Austria and Holland, to name but four. And for health care if you live in France, you'll need plenty of cash unless you're a member of a "mutual" insurance scheme to reimburse you.

In reply to UKC News:

Obviously, a speedy recovery to them both.

However, style-wise......look at how the three climbers mentioned here control the movement of their centre of gravity.

After the dyno, McClure moved round the arete and didn't swing left at all; Pearson swung left and checked that movement as soon as he could. Caminati leapt for the hold and completely overshot it with his body. He didn't climb it European style so much as climbing it like a sport route.

Well done for trying but a bit of beta would have helped a lot.

In the 90's I did a bit of coaching with Johnny Dawes (as part of a group, I'm not a Rock God!) and he demonstrated precise control of his centre of mass, to hang holds that looked impossible, just because when he arrived at the hold, his body was in the perfect position to use it to the max.

In reply to tapster:


You do realize, that he climbed it successfully a day earlier, and when he fell he was doing it for a camera (or cameras?).

In reply to Chris Shorter:

Let's just say, that your information on NL is a bit flawed... or has changed since around 2005 or so (when I lived there).

And also plenty of cash was *not* needed in France a few years ago.

That said, travel and/or health insurance is a reasonably smart idea to have...

In reply to tapster: He'd already done the route and was repeating it for photos.

In reply to FactorXXX:

At the risk of going way off topic, if I thought my rope might cut I'd use a thicker rope. Not more ropes.

I wonder if there's any sense in it.

And why we're on anecdotes, on two occasions I have hung suspended from a single core of a climbing rope. Each time I was strapped to someone else so that's 140kg or so. Why so strong like that and so weak on cutting? Couldn't they put an anti cut fabric around the core or something?

In reply to XXXX:


They do; it's called the sheath. It works very well indeed in the vast majority of situations.

In reply to john arran:

The sheath isn't anti-cut. It's anti wear as I understand it, having absolutely no resistance to cutting.

In reply to XXXX:


Single ropes usually are thicker than halves, so arguably he'd already taken that precaution.


"And why we're on anecdotes, on two occasions I have hung suspended from a single core of a climbing rope. Each time I was strapped to someone else so that's 140kg or so. Why so strong like that and so weak on cutting? Couldn't they put an anti cut fabric around the core or something?"


Come on, this is getting silly. Something can be very strong but if something stronger and sharp is rubbed against it, it will fail.

In reply to HeMa:


It's not flawed. A new scheme was implemented from January 1st 2006.

>That said, travel and/or health insurance is a reasonably smart idea to have...

Can't disagree with you on this though! The EHIC doesn't cover specialist repatriation to start with, which can cost heaps for a seriously injured person. Hopefully, the Italian chap will just be "walking wounded" when he goes home.

Chris

In reply to XXXX:


I'm not sure what you are suggesting here, the rope was severed by abrasion, extreme wear in a short space of time. An anti-cut sheath would be... well, I'm not sure what it would be but practical is one thing it wouldn't be.

In reply to DerwentDiluted:

Well typically protection for clothes etc is kevlar which is renowned for not being stretchy at all, so no use for dynamic rope I suspect.