This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
this is a spin off of my previous thread asking for a route... I did this route kindly suggested by Chris the tall
https://www.v-publishing.co.uk/blog/v-publishing-blog/2014-01-20---free-dow...
The thing is... I was so slow: I looked at the recording afterwards and I stopped about 20 times in 3 hours. It took me 3 hours to do 20km. I've ran a very, very hilly half marathon in 2hrs 10 minutes! I thought I would be at least twice as fast on a bike...
Pretty much every single hill I had to get off and push, should I be able to cycle up rocky hills? Both loose rock and just generally very bumpy terrain? Can anyone do this or just the best of the best mtb'rs? What annoys me is I can pedal up a road hill no problem, I cycled the whole way back up the hill to Mam Tor from Edale without any issues so I think I have the fitness, I just can't handle the terrain.
FYI I'm riding a full susser with about 130mm of travel, it's not a full DH bike.
I'm just curious to see if everyone's experience of mtb'ing in the peak district is like this?
Also I was mildly put off by the huge number of gates and the general uber-rockiness of everything around.
Other than that it was a lovely day out.
https://www.v-publishing.co.uk/blog/v-publishing-blog/2014-01-20---free-dow...
The thing is... I was so slow: I looked at the recording afterwards and I stopped about 20 times in 3 hours. It took me 3 hours to do 20km. I've ran a very, very hilly half marathon in 2hrs 10 minutes! I thought I would be at least twice as fast on a bike...
Pretty much every single hill I had to get off and push, should I be able to cycle up rocky hills? Both loose rock and just generally very bumpy terrain? Can anyone do this or just the best of the best mtb'rs? What annoys me is I can pedal up a road hill no problem, I cycled the whole way back up the hill to Mam Tor from Edale without any issues so I think I have the fitness, I just can't handle the terrain.
FYI I'm riding a full susser with about 130mm of travel, it's not a full DH bike.
I'm just curious to see if everyone's experience of mtb'ing in the peak district is like this?
Also I was mildly put off by the huge number of gates and the general uber-rockiness of everything around.
Other than that it was a lovely day out.
2
In reply to elliot.baker:
Do/can you lock off your suspension for uphill sections?
I ride my hardtail up lumpy things quite often and find it a lot easier when everything is stiff. My old full sus (that had no lock offs at all) was a nightmare going uphill - it was like rising a piece of liquorice!
Do/can you lock off your suspension for uphill sections?
I ride my hardtail up lumpy things quite often and find it a lot easier when everything is stiff. My old full sus (that had no lock offs at all) was a nightmare going uphill - it was like rising a piece of liquorice!
2
In reply to elliot.baker:
Like climbing, riding isn't just about fitness and a few skills and techniques can go a very long way. I'd recommend a group skills course and to check out some Youtube videos as well. Pedal Progression do a good series of skills videos for Bike Radar that are all on Youtube and you can actually get quite a lot out of them.
Like climbing, riding isn't just about fitness and a few skills and techniques can go a very long way. I'd recommend a group skills course and to check out some Youtube videos as well. Pedal Progression do a good series of skills videos for Bike Radar that are all on Youtube and you can actually get quite a lot out of them.
2
In reply to WildCamper:
You can lock off both the front and back suspension on my bike, but I only do that on roads because I thought really bumpy terrain benefits from susp. because if forces the wheels back down on to the ground?
I'll have a look at some videos then thanks, it was exasperating I just couldn't get moving on the hills and realised I can only maintain standing up pedalling for about 30 seconds before I die. Which makes me think that standing up pedalling uses completely different muscles to relaxed low-gear sitting down pedalling up a hill, because I can do that almost indefinitely.
You can lock off both the front and back suspension on my bike, but I only do that on roads because I thought really bumpy terrain benefits from susp. because if forces the wheels back down on to the ground?
I'll have a look at some videos then thanks, it was exasperating I just couldn't get moving on the hills and realised I can only maintain standing up pedalling for about 30 seconds before I die. Which makes me think that standing up pedalling uses completely different muscles to relaxed low-gear sitting down pedalling up a hill, because I can do that almost indefinitely.
In reply to elliot.baker:
Im not a terrible MTBer and occasional runner and definitely think for most technical xc terraine running is faster. I havnt looked at your route but 20km off road in the dark peak (i.e edale to hayfield and back bia jacobs ladder) would easily take 3+ hrs. Cycling up rocky sections takes a lot of power both in core and legs as well as confidence (having big wheels also helps alot) and is not like road biking. Personally i find keeping the rear suspension engaged to help.
Im not a terrible MTBer and occasional runner and definitely think for most technical xc terraine running is faster. I havnt looked at your route but 20km off road in the dark peak (i.e edale to hayfield and back bia jacobs ladder) would easily take 3+ hrs. Cycling up rocky sections takes a lot of power both in core and legs as well as confidence (having big wheels also helps alot) and is not like road biking. Personally i find keeping the rear suspension engaged to help.
2
In reply to elliot.baker:
I did almost the same route yesterday, but went up to Mam Tor via Harden Clough rather than Chapel Gate. I'm nowhere near as fit as you in terms of running but have been mountain biking for > 10 years. Don't underestimate the skills you need to get up and down rocky terrain: heart, lungs and leg muscles can only do so much. Comparing road riding and mtb is like a 7c strong indoor climber finding themselves on The Vice and expecting it to be easy.
According to the GPS we did 24km in just over 2 hours moving time. Total time out was over 3 hours though, so plenty of resting/eating/admiring the view etc. The rockiness, especially Jacobs ladder, is pretty typical for the Peak. See also The Beast going down to the Snake Pass road, and Cave Dale dropping into Castleton. All loose and bouldery and require a confident approach. A 130mm bike ought to be ok for this sort of terrain after a bit of practise. I find going too slowly makes it harder - more speed lets you bounce and float over the rocks rather than hitting every single one. Does makes you crash harder though.
The gates are a pain. It's better if you have a riding buddy so you can leapfrog each other and only open alternate gates.
edit. For going uphill, I'd never consider standing up for more than a couple of pedal strokes to get over a particularly large rock/step. Sit forward on the saddle to get the weight forward, but stay sat down as much as possible. If you have adjustable forks, set them to the shortest travel. Keep in a low gear and spin quickly rather than grinding out a higher gear - it'll reduce the imbalance and keep the momentum up.
I did almost the same route yesterday, but went up to Mam Tor via Harden Clough rather than Chapel Gate. I'm nowhere near as fit as you in terms of running but have been mountain biking for > 10 years. Don't underestimate the skills you need to get up and down rocky terrain: heart, lungs and leg muscles can only do so much. Comparing road riding and mtb is like a 7c strong indoor climber finding themselves on The Vice and expecting it to be easy.
According to the GPS we did 24km in just over 2 hours moving time. Total time out was over 3 hours though, so plenty of resting/eating/admiring the view etc. The rockiness, especially Jacobs ladder, is pretty typical for the Peak. See also The Beast going down to the Snake Pass road, and Cave Dale dropping into Castleton. All loose and bouldery and require a confident approach. A 130mm bike ought to be ok for this sort of terrain after a bit of practise. I find going too slowly makes it harder - more speed lets you bounce and float over the rocks rather than hitting every single one. Does makes you crash harder though.
The gates are a pain. It's better if you have a riding buddy so you can leapfrog each other and only open alternate gates.
edit. For going uphill, I'd never consider standing up for more than a couple of pedal strokes to get over a particularly large rock/step. Sit forward on the saddle to get the weight forward, but stay sat down as much as possible. If you have adjustable forks, set them to the shortest travel. Keep in a low gear and spin quickly rather than grinding out a higher gear - it'll reduce the imbalance and keep the momentum up.
Post edited at 13:36
5
In reply to elliot.baker:
It depends on your frame whether you should lock out - I certainly get more traction with the valves open, but I know other bikes that really bob badly.
Much more important off road is technique - particularly weight distribution.... You need to keep weight on the back wheel for traction.... standing up is not advised on loose surfaces (or if you do keep weight well back), and when you do then do it to urge the frame up over obstacles and then sit again.
What pedals are you using? SPD's can often allow you to keep power on when back wheel spins when you might struggle on platforms (not insurmountable).
consider Your line choices too - you may find you are stopping when your line is poor and you are getting stuck more than anything else (this seems to matter a lot more on switchback climbs or gullied routes)
It depends on your frame whether you should lock out - I certainly get more traction with the valves open, but I know other bikes that really bob badly.
Much more important off road is technique - particularly weight distribution.... You need to keep weight on the back wheel for traction.... standing up is not advised on loose surfaces (or if you do keep weight well back), and when you do then do it to urge the frame up over obstacles and then sit again.
What pedals are you using? SPD's can often allow you to keep power on when back wheel spins when you might struggle on platforms (not insurmountable).
consider Your line choices too - you may find you are stopping when your line is poor and you are getting stuck more than anything else (this seems to matter a lot more on switchback climbs or gullied routes)
2
In reply to elliot.baker:
I've never been on that trail so its hard to say. The trail guide does say it'll take approx 3+ hours and you did it in 3 hours so I'd guess your average speed was probably about typical.
As for running Vs biking speeds it depends on the overall terrain and mix of descents / accents. If it's long a rocky up hills followed by short steep descents then a runner could probably out do a comparably skilled rider. If its fairly short steep up hills followed by long flowing descents then the runner may have an edge on the short ups but would be quickly overtaken on the downs.
I've never been on that trail so its hard to say. The trail guide does say it'll take approx 3+ hours and you did it in 3 hours so I'd guess your average speed was probably about typical.
As for running Vs biking speeds it depends on the overall terrain and mix of descents / accents. If it's long a rocky up hills followed by short steep descents then a runner could probably out do a comparably skilled rider. If its fairly short steep up hills followed by long flowing descents then the runner may have an edge on the short ups but would be quickly overtaken on the downs.
In reply to Mowglee:
Yeah I think I'm quite confident on the downhill stuff I do go fast and find myself hopping down moderate rocky drops etc. rather than rolling off, I think I was just shell shocked by the uphill stuff. I have a local route with (what I thought!) had some technical ascents that I can easily ride up without putting a foot down, but I realise now that they are at best intermediate level compared to pro level sustained kilometres of loose rocky uphills! I'll have a go at locking out the front and leaving the back bouncy next time.
I only have very spiky platform pedals not spd. I lost several pieces of my shins and knees yesterday to the studs on them. Harrowing.
Yeah I think I'm quite confident on the downhill stuff I do go fast and find myself hopping down moderate rocky drops etc. rather than rolling off, I think I was just shell shocked by the uphill stuff. I have a local route with (what I thought!) had some technical ascents that I can easily ride up without putting a foot down, but I realise now that they are at best intermediate level compared to pro level sustained kilometres of loose rocky uphills! I'll have a go at locking out the front and leaving the back bouncy next time.
I only have very spiky platform pedals not spd. I lost several pieces of my shins and knees yesterday to the studs on them. Harrowing.
In reply to elliot.baker:
I lost several pieces of my shins and knees yesterday to the studs on them. Harrowing.
Ouch!
Not everyone likes them but I find spd definitely has advantages...
I lost several pieces of my shins and knees yesterday to the studs on them. Harrowing.
Ouch!
Not everyone likes them but I find spd definitely has advantages...
In reply to elliot.baker:
Welcome to Peak riding
Average speeds on Peak MTB rides tend to usually work out somewhere in the range 7 to 10 miles per hour (cue discussion), based on moving time, not total time (Strava).
>Also I was mildly put by the ...general uber-rockiness of everything around.
That's what makes it so much fun, up and down.
All those climbs (that way round) are doable without stopping, but very tough, physically and technically and stopping on those is the norm: enjoy the view, have a drink, engage in some banter - it's not road riding .
Keep your suspension on during techy climbs. (cue another discussion)
Tire pressures really important as well. Don't have them at 35-50 psi, lol. (cue another discussion)
Welcome to Peak riding
Average speeds on Peak MTB rides tend to usually work out somewhere in the range 7 to 10 miles per hour (cue discussion), based on moving time, not total time (Strava).
>Also I was mildly put by the ...general uber-rockiness of everything around.
That's what makes it so much fun, up and down.
All those climbs (that way round) are doable without stopping, but very tough, physically and technically and stopping on those is the norm: enjoy the view, have a drink, engage in some banter - it's not road riding .
Keep your suspension on during techy climbs. (cue another discussion)
Tire pressures really important as well. Don't have them at 35-50 psi, lol. (cue another discussion)
1
In reply to elliot.baker:
Glad you enjoyed it !
3 hours for 20K of that terrain isn't bad at all. Done that way round then I'm able to ride almost all of it on a good day, but so much of it is absolutely at my limit. On the climbs you won't be going much faster than walking pace - in fact it's often quicker to walk cos you spend less time bent over your bike getting your breath back, but where the fun in that.
I'd normally expect a moving average of around 6-10 mph on an MTB and 14-18 on road, but of course it all depends on the number of hills and how technical the terrain is. With a road bike it isn't usually an issue just to keep going whereas on that circuit is definitely is. Having said that I spent Saturday searching out the steepest roads around Halifax and Hebden bridge, averaging little over 10mph and mostly having a desperate struggle to keep going.
Glad you enjoyed it !
3 hours for 20K of that terrain isn't bad at all. Done that way round then I'm able to ride almost all of it on a good day, but so much of it is absolutely at my limit. On the climbs you won't be going much faster than walking pace - in fact it's often quicker to walk cos you spend less time bent over your bike getting your breath back, but where the fun in that.
I'd normally expect a moving average of around 6-10 mph on an MTB and 14-18 on road, but of course it all depends on the number of hills and how technical the terrain is. With a road bike it isn't usually an issue just to keep going whereas on that circuit is definitely is. Having said that I spent Saturday searching out the steepest roads around Halifax and Hebden bridge, averaging little over 10mph and mostly having a desperate struggle to keep going.
2
In reply to ChrisJD:
Agree - don't use the lock out. Apart from the extra traction you get, you'll be so relieved at the top, and so excited about whats to come, you'll forget that you've locked out until half way down the descent.
> Keep your suspension on during techy climbs
Agree - don't use the lock out. Apart from the extra traction you get, you'll be so relieved at the top, and so excited about whats to come, you'll forget that you've locked out until half way down the descent.
3
In reply to elliot.baker:
Doing Polaris trailquest events on light XC bikes loaded with overnight kit in our 30s and 40s we used to reckon on 9 mph average moving speed. Much of the terrain was on tarmac though with narrow commuter-type tyres.
On a road bike in hilly Lancashire terrain (typically 3000 feet in 40-50 miles) we reckon on about 15 mph average, though we are in our 60s now.
Doing Polaris trailquest events on light XC bikes loaded with overnight kit in our 30s and 40s we used to reckon on 9 mph average moving speed. Much of the terrain was on tarmac though with narrow commuter-type tyres.
On a road bike in hilly Lancashire terrain (typically 3000 feet in 40-50 miles) we reckon on about 15 mph average, though we are in our 60s now.
1
In reply to elliot.baker:
You should buy the Joe Barton guidebooks there really good. Work your way through starting with the easier routes. The route you did is a a hard ride especially if it was your first in the peak District. . 20k doesn't sound slot but its the amount of ascent that ruins you.
Pace yourself aswell, if you try to go to fast up the hills you just burn yourself out.
The 20k route you did is more exhausting than a 70k around Sherwood Pines, so don't feel bad , and it does get easier ????????????
(Question marks was meant o be thumbs up)
You should buy the Joe Barton guidebooks there really good. Work your way through starting with the easier routes. The route you did is a a hard ride especially if it was your first in the peak District. . 20k doesn't sound slot but its the amount of ascent that ruins you.
Pace yourself aswell, if you try to go to fast up the hills you just burn yourself out.
The 20k route you did is more exhausting than a 70k around Sherwood Pines, so don't feel bad , and it does get easier ????????????
(Question marks was meant o be thumbs up)
Post edited at 13:19
1
In reply to elliot.baker:
As has been said, compared to road riding uphill, rough mtb uphils require a lot more technique in addition to the fitness. You can't spin away constantly as you'll bash pedals. You can't just apply max power to a problem as you'll spin out on loose ground. You need to lift your front wheel over bumps and rises, and sometimes get your weight forward to scoop your back wheel up and over. Modulating the pedal force as appropriate all the time.
Watch a few video tutorials and try out some easier stuff first, you'll get there in time.
As has been said, compared to road riding uphill, rough mtb uphils require a lot more technique in addition to the fitness. You can't spin away constantly as you'll bash pedals. You can't just apply max power to a problem as you'll spin out on loose ground. You need to lift your front wheel over bumps and rises, and sometimes get your weight forward to scoop your back wheel up and over. Modulating the pedal force as appropriate all the time.
Watch a few video tutorials and try out some easier stuff first, you'll get there in time.
In reply to ebdon:
What would people recommend for building "real-life" core strength? I can do like 50+ sit ups on a declined bench whereas my girlfriend can do barely 1 but she has a significantly flatter stomach than me!
Would traditional exercises like situps, leg raises, hanging leg raises, planks, etc. build core strength that would benefit climbing and mountain biking?
Or do very skilled/talented/fit mtb'rs and climbers just do lots of that activity and build the right core muscles for the task at hand from doing it?
OORRR should I be doing something more new and exciting like trx suspension things ... or yoga......
Or all of the above?
ta
What would people recommend for building "real-life" core strength? I can do like 50+ sit ups on a declined bench whereas my girlfriend can do barely 1 but she has a significantly flatter stomach than me!
Would traditional exercises like situps, leg raises, hanging leg raises, planks, etc. build core strength that would benefit climbing and mountain biking?
Or do very skilled/talented/fit mtb'rs and climbers just do lots of that activity and build the right core muscles for the task at hand from doing it?
OORRR should I be doing something more new and exciting like trx suspension things ... or yoga......
Or all of the above?
ta
1
In reply to elliot.baker:
Fairly new MTB rider here. Just a few things that I haven't seen mentioned, that I've picked up on the way (you may already know them).
Firstly, if this your first ride, you've chosen a very tough one in terms of grades: it is rated red/black. Also I believe it's in the 'Epic' section of the book. So, wow! Hats off to you. That's like doing HVS on a first climb.
I would recommend getting the book Peak District Mountain Biking (and/or White Peak) and working through the first section, reds/blues. I recommend the Ladybower Lite (also on Viewranger).
Also, are you already familiar with trails such as Gisburn Forest? I have found them best for skills and conditioning, being more varied with climbs and DHs than cross-country. Jump on the reds, it's a LOT of fun if you haven't yet.
Lastly, the main skills I've used are: putting ass over the back cogs when going down hill (lowered seat). Dropping/raising the seat prior to taking an uphill/DH. Locking elbows to make a square to put weight over bars when going uphill (raised seat). And 'pumping', pushing down on forks on the up/down of ramps for free speed. I'm starting to get more confidence with getting air on jumps so something is working. I use a hardtail.
As for conditioning, just do more MTBing. I trouser cycle to work, which helps. And a local skills park next to Manchester Cycling Centre.
Good luck! PM me if you ever want a riding partner.
Fairly new MTB rider here. Just a few things that I haven't seen mentioned, that I've picked up on the way (you may already know them).
Firstly, if this your first ride, you've chosen a very tough one in terms of grades: it is rated red/black. Also I believe it's in the 'Epic' section of the book. So, wow! Hats off to you. That's like doing HVS on a first climb.
I would recommend getting the book Peak District Mountain Biking (and/or White Peak) and working through the first section, reds/blues. I recommend the Ladybower Lite (also on Viewranger).
Also, are you already familiar with trails such as Gisburn Forest? I have found them best for skills and conditioning, being more varied with climbs and DHs than cross-country. Jump on the reds, it's a LOT of fun if you haven't yet.
Lastly, the main skills I've used are: putting ass over the back cogs when going down hill (lowered seat). Dropping/raising the seat prior to taking an uphill/DH. Locking elbows to make a square to put weight over bars when going uphill (raised seat). And 'pumping', pushing down on forks on the up/down of ramps for free speed. I'm starting to get more confidence with getting air on jumps so something is working. I use a hardtail.
As for conditioning, just do more MTBing. I trouser cycle to work, which helps. And a local skills park next to Manchester Cycling Centre.
Good luck! PM me if you ever want a riding partner.
1
In reply to Pete_Mosely:
Ass over cogs is solid advice! I just got PBs on strava on 2 different down hill sections on my local regular route I've been riding for years.
I just focused on getting right behind the seat more than normal and it did make it feel like you were more stable but I felt quite concious of the reduced weight on the front wheel.
Ass over cogs is solid advice! I just got PBs on strava on 2 different down hill sections on my local regular route I've been riding for years.
I just focused on getting right behind the seat more than normal and it did make it feel like you were more stable but I felt quite concious of the reduced weight on the front wheel.
1
In reply to elliot.baker:
Bikes are surprisingly slow! A friend and I once did the West Highland Way and we were nowhere near the times the runners get. When the terrain is too technical, running wins.
Bikes are surprisingly slow! A friend and I once did the West Highland Way and we were nowhere near the times the runners get. When the terrain is too technical, running wins.
1
In reply to elliot.baker:
Pete is spot on in his advice, good post.
You're obviously fit, and as other posters have pointed out your time is actually not bad. Don't worry about specific physical attributes to develop. As MP says, riding technical MTB involves a lot of skill: efficient movement and specific trail fitness will rapidly develop, with practice. You have a good base, so don't be overly self-critical.
Would also agree with Mowglee that more speed is often a good thing; learning to trust the bike and your movement at speed is really what MTB is about! Commitment and the right degree of momentum will usually see you through a difficult obstacle.
Forgive the unrequested advice, but you do mention being put off by rocky terrain: try to foster the habit of looking through trail obstacles at the exit while registering them in your peripheral vision. It's essentially 'you'll go where you're looking'. It's a really powerful tool for all trail obstacles; practice it at every opportunity.
Luke
Pete is spot on in his advice, good post.
You're obviously fit, and as other posters have pointed out your time is actually not bad. Don't worry about specific physical attributes to develop. As MP says, riding technical MTB involves a lot of skill: efficient movement and specific trail fitness will rapidly develop, with practice. You have a good base, so don't be overly self-critical.
Would also agree with Mowglee that more speed is often a good thing; learning to trust the bike and your movement at speed is really what MTB is about! Commitment and the right degree of momentum will usually see you through a difficult obstacle.
Forgive the unrequested advice, but you do mention being put off by rocky terrain: try to foster the habit of looking through trail obstacles at the exit while registering them in your peripheral vision. It's essentially 'you'll go where you're looking'. It's a really powerful tool for all trail obstacles; practice it at every opportunity.
Luke
2
In reply to elliot.baker:
Glad you found it helpful. I picked up quite a bit from these guys' GMBN channel: youtube.com/watch?v=2aw6a736QLk&
Their video on pumping is also helpful; basically, actively using your suspension as springs, pushing down on them to get free speed on a DH or pushing to get air on a ramp.
If money is no object, a dropper seat-post can assist with the fast uphill/technical DH switches (I still use manual seat-post adjustment as an excuse to catch my breath and rest the legs).
Glad you found it helpful. I picked up quite a bit from these guys' GMBN channel: youtube.com/watch?v=2aw6a736QLk&
Their video on pumping is also helpful; basically, actively using your suspension as springs, pushing down on them to get free speed on a DH or pushing to get air on a ramp.
If money is no object, a dropper seat-post can assist with the fast uphill/technical DH switches (I still use manual seat-post adjustment as an excuse to catch my breath and rest the legs).
In reply to elliot.baker:
If you have a bike with a longish fork and modern, slack geometry that lets you ride on the fork, getting over the back is not as helpful as dropping you seat and keeping low and central. That's why droppers are so great. Agree with all who say keep sus active on tech climbs, traction is much better.
If you have a bike with a longish fork and modern, slack geometry that lets you ride on the fork, getting over the back is not as helpful as dropping you seat and keeping low and central. That's why droppers are so great. Agree with all who say keep sus active on tech climbs, traction is much better.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...