UKC

Hey!

Hope everyone is enjoying this amazing weather.

Quick questions about outdoor sport climbing.

After you finish climbing and want to move on from the crag how do you recover your last quick draw? It is easy enough to collect the rest of your draws by upclipping them, but the last one/two are keeping you from falling! How do climbers normally recover this?

In reply to swifty:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-lower-off-from-a-sport-climb

I prefer the second of the two methods in their video because it works for every anchor, not just those where there's space to fit two strands of rope through. I feel like using the same sequence every time is safer than potentially confusing myself by switching back and forth depending on the anchor. It also feels less awkward dealing with a single strand of rope.

In reply to swifty:

Read this:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/climb-skills-sport-climbing

There is usually something set up for lowering on but this can differ in many ways. The important thing is to learn how to transfer from your own gear onto this situ gear.

Al

In reply to swifty:
If you've completed the climb you'd need to do something like this:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-lower-off-from-a-sport-climb

You shouldn't really be lowering off a quickdraw.

[Edit] I see I was beaten to it!

In reply to Tony Jones:


I don't want to confuse the OP but that's not strictly true. It's accepted practice for only the last person to lower on the situ gear. By lowering on your own QD you are saving wear and tear on this gear.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

Thanks for correcting my post. In retrospect, I'm not sure I conveyed what I meant to say very well...

In reply to swifty:

Just wanted to add to the thread that lowering off a single quickdraw (without any backup) isn't a good idea.

In reply to Greasy Prusiks:

I do not lower from a single quick draw. I use the anchor point at the top of the climb, consisting of two quick draws. Is this wrong?

In reply to swifty:
Two QDs clipped with opposing gates onto the rope is standard if the route is going to be top ropped or led by someone else.. then you are the last person to climb route do the method described above

In reply to swifty:

Nope, it's a completely legit way of doing it as long as you have the karabiners with the rope through facing the opposite directions from each other.

In reply to swifty:


Anchors and quickdraws are different things, if you're stripping a route for the last time.

In reply to Fraser:
Okay, so let me get this straight.

I climb, removing all quickdraws apart from the top two. At the top of a sport climb there are two bolts next to each other, which I have clipped in with two separate quick draws. Is this not safe?

From here I need to do the following to retrieve my rope.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-lower-off-from-a-sport-climb

Is this correct??

In reply to swifty:
You're going through what I went through about 3 years ago but someone showed me how to do it several times on the ground then when I was at the top I kept messing one part up (in a non-life threatening way) and fortunately there was someone on an adjacent route that talked me through it. It wasnt panicky or anything just useful to have them there.

Since this process involves you doing things which if done wrong you'll just fall all the way to the bottom I'd make sure you can do it with your eyes closed before having a razz at the top of a route. Probably goes without saying like but I just wanted to put this since I posted almost exactly what you did those couple years back!

Have fun.

Edit: typo

In reply to swifty:

Yes, that's safe and correct. My point was that an 'anchor' and a quick draw aren't necessarily the same thing. Once you've got to the lower off:
- anchor yourself safely to both points (assuming there are two!) with a sling, screwgate etc
- pull up sufficient rope to let you thread the rings /crabs
- attach the rope securely to your harness
- untie the original knot and pull it back through the anchors
- get your belayer to take you back 'on belay' (they take the load, rather than your connection to the anchors)
- remove your sling / connection to the anchors
- tell your belayer to lower you

If you're in doubt at all, don't bluff it, just take your time and check everything again from the start. Don't untie anything to you *know* you're safe and have double checked. Once you've done it a few times, you'll become accustomed to the procedure and is variations and where you can safely deviated from the standard practice. It's better to be slow at doing this, but safe, rather than fast and in a crumpled heap at the bottom of the crag.

I was at a crag the other day and a leader shouted down that she'd "forgotten how to re-tie a figure-of-eight". She was also told by her belayer to just untie and thread the rope through the anchor without first having secured it to her harness. Fortunately she had the savvy to realise if she'd dropped it at any point during this exercise she'd be stuffed, so she secured a bight to her harness first, then threaded the lower-off. Still lowered off only one of the anchors though!

In reply to swifty:


Yes-you are correct. Clipping the top two anchors with two quick draws is standard practice and safe. As mentioned above, best if the gates on the two quickdraws face in opposite directions (particularly the ends holding the rope).

In reply to swifty:

yes you've got it.

do you climb indoors? most walls have a ground level set of bolts for you to practice this sequence

In reply to Luke90:
The video is not a very good demo....
(https://www.thebmc.co.uk/how-to-lower-off-from-a-sport-climb)

Because, the climbers actions do not match the voice over instructions. Seems a bit shoddy to me as it is authored by a bmc tech officer, and on bmc tv / from rock climbing essentials.
The cimber, on being able to reach the belay, has not attached a quickdraw, and clipped the rope to it, ike as if it was another runner.
But that's what the voice says to do.... Instead the climber omits this but clips a quickdraw, one end to one of the belay rings (there are 2, and they aren't attached to each other by a chain), and the other end of the quickdraw to her harness belay loop.
So at the point where the climber pulls up quite a lot of slack to push a bend through 2 bolt rings to tie a fig 8 and clip to her harness, at this point, she is only attached to one belay bolt (+ the gear below on route), and if that failed the climber would take a whipper, and the person belaying may be less attetive than they still should be, as they think climber is secured to belay bolt (but should be attached to 2 if not chain linked as in this example).

On these grounds, should bmc not remove a faulty safety demo video?

Personally i would 1st clip a quickdraw to the belay and clip the rope to it like its a runner (as per vid voiceover) and shout "take", then clip another quickdraw to 2nd bolt and this quickdraw to belay loop, then using the 1st quickdraw i would stay with the rope clipped in but also clip it to my harness belay loop too, then feel safe enough to ask for slack do the rest.

In reply to swifty:
Glad have made the distinction that you clip the belay, 2 bolts, with 2 separate quickdraws.
Even if connected by a chain, this is and feels more secure, whilst untying yourself from your rope, way above ground, with some fumbling with gear to do, and a belayer who maybe opening some munchies / pouring tea / reading guide / trying to put a coat on / take it off, all hopefully with the belay device held and locked off.

In reply to Rock to Fakey:


What you personally do, or need to do to feel safe is a long way from what is perfectly acceptable or normal. Perhaps you can provide examples of where your "disaster" scenario has ever caused death or serious injury?

In reply to jimtitt:
Neither scenario is exactly the same, and both involve duff bolts or bolting (but then that's kind of the point), but both would have been prevented by not relying on a single bolt:
http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/bolt-breaks-climber-falls-to-d...
http://www.rockandice.com/old-news/bolt-pulls-out-in-the-new-river-gorge?A=...

There was another case with SCC in Thailand (obviously not applicable to the UK) but in that case _both_ belay bolts failed; fortunately the belayer had clipped a higher bolt as a redirect which held...

Only really an issue if a) you are cleaning a top-rope line (and so don't have any gear below you), b) your belayer isn't paying attention, or c) the anchor is really close to the ground (some horrific roof maybe?).

In reply to jimtitt:
Examples... Personally no i can't but i bet someone else can, in which case that scenario may well have been disastrous.
"a long way from what is perfectly acceptable + normal"?... How is it? I described clipping both bolts at the top of a belay when they aren't chain linked, before you untie... Perhaps when they are chain linked its more secure, but i still clip both, i don't honestly know how many people do / don't, but i know that clipping both is safer,
What i do in this scenario is the same as some people, but no doubt not everyone.
Do you clip + lower off only 1 bolt when there are 2 at a lower off belay?
If so, why not only thread your rope through 1 of them rather than both?!
My 1st post was addressing the bmc posting a video showing someone doing something 1 way but describing it another way, and also addresses that the belay has 2 bolts you can clip, so clip both, (not done in the vid) and lower threaded through both their attached rings (as in the vid), because its safer.

In reply to Rock to Fakey:

>Do you clip + lower off only 1 bolt when there are 2 at a lower off belay? If so, why not only thread your rope through 1 of them rather than both?!My 1st post was addressing the bmc posting a video showing someone doing something 1 way but describing it another way, and also addresses that the belay has 2 bolts you can clip, so clip both, (not done in the vid) and lower threaded through both their attached rings (as in the vid), because its safer.

I clip one and lower off both if there are two, just like every one I know or have ever seen and that is how I teach it as well. As the climber is always attatched to the rope clipping into the second bolt is superflous.
Something is only provably safer if you can show the alternative is less safe, since accidents involving only clipping one bolt and it failing while the belayer is being beyond incompetent seem to be unknown then "safer" is then only a theoretical concept at best.
I routinely clip and lower off single bolts since that is the standard system in large areas of Europe, the last two-bolt lower-off I used was probably two years ago.

In reply to swifty:

While we're talking sport - who here uses a quickdraw to attach to the anchors at the top of a route while rethreading? I've always used a cows tail, with a sling larksfooted (is that even a word?) to my harness and a screwgate to the anchor. A mate mentioned clipping a quickdraw between the anchor and their belay loop, and someone mentioned it on this thread too.

I find it's pretty rare that there are good enough footholds to move my waist that close to the anchors. Plus I want a screwgate in the equation when I'm untying stuff.

I'm not being critical btw, just wondering why you would use a quickdraw. Am I missing a trick here?

In reply to GargoyleFeet:
I only use a cows tail on multi-pitch routes as it comes in handy for the abseils as well. I find it gets in the way most of the time and is an extra bit of gear to carry that only serves one purpose. I always carry an alpine draw for those odd times when a bolt is off to one side but also doubles as an extendable cows tail/QD.

Al

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

Yep, I'd agree with pretty much all of what you said. I' m rarely able to use a QD to connect to the anchor, I always take a tail... if I remember I'm stripping the route!

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

From my own observations, I've seen people do both, but I'd say generally far more people use a quickdraw than a cowstail.

I guess the reason is its less faff than having a cowstail attached to your belay loop, you're carrying quickdraws anyway so less hassle to just carry one more (which most people seem to do anyway i.e. carry one or two more than you think are required).

Personally I've done both, you can use two quickdraws clipped end to end if you need it a bit longer. Yes its marginally less safe than a sling and screwgate, but providing you are clipped to the previous bolts and you have communicated clearly to the belayer what you are doing (so they don't take you off belay while you're re-threading the lower offs) then its perfectly safe.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:


Me.


I find it easier. And I look less like a punter.

In reply to Phil79:


I'd just add, unless the climber intends to rap off for some reason, there's no reason to take someone off belay that I can think of.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


I agree. But I have climbed with some people in the past who tended to abseil from the anchors, rather than be lowered off (and I know of someone who was dropped from the anchors to the floor because of a miscommunication over being lowered off). Hence its critical to establish with the belayer what you are planning to do.

In reply to GargoyleFeet:

Me - if I know there 14 bolts + the lower-off, I'll carry 16 draws: 1 for each bolt, 1 for droppage + 1 for the lower-off
I'm always intrigued that people feel the need to complicate what is a very simple process

For properly equipped multi-pitch sport, I might add a sling & a screwgate

In reply to swifty:
I've rethreaded the rope through the anchors (using the 'push a bight through' technique) without ever attaching to the anchors at all... (somewhere in the Gower where you had comfortable standing room at the top of the climb).

If you are still on belay and sufficiently protected by lower gear, it doesn't matter how you choose to attach yourself to the anchors (as long as you remain attached to the rope throughout), whether by quickdraw, screwgate or shoelace.

If your belayer is lazy or you don't have quickdraws below you, this all changes of course - I would consider two quickdraws or a single screwgate acceptable (provided you are attached to both bolts in some way). I wouldn't trust a quickdraw clipping two bolts together not to unclip if a bolt fails.

In reply to swifty:

http://www.libbypeterclimbing.co.uk/techpdfs/sport1.pdf

In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

If the next person is leading you just pull down.

If seconding or top roping I'd usually place screwgates on the rings, this avoids wear on the rings but is safer than using quickdraws.

The last to climb cleans the routes by re-threading, personally I prefer threading a bite and lowering on a screwgate because you avoid ever having to come off-belay.

In reply to springfall2008:


Unsolicited tip of the day - when being lowered off unclip the second (and only the second) quickdraw from the ground. Pull the rope, and the rope remains clipped into the first quickdraw.

In reply to springfall2008:

I prefer to use a bight too but ur last paragraph made me think about it actually and I think it may still be possible to use the other method of un-tieing whilst remaining on belay, namely, if the rope you pull up first to clip to harness (to prevent dropping it) is clipped with screwgate to central loop on harness..??

Granted it would be a bit more of a faff etc but I think it's worth knowing the safe way of both methods isn't it in case one cannot use the bight method on the anchor (for example if the crabs on the anchor at the top are too small to pass a bight through)

In reply to Rocknast:

Everybody should know how to re-thread on a small bolt, they are quite common in a lot of areas like the Frankenjura, standard if you are bailing half way on a route with glue-ins and on many routes on the USA you get two lengths of 3/8" chain and have to thread the lowest links. I just leave my belay device krab on the belay loop and clove hitch into it before untieing and threading.

In reply to Rocknast:


Yes agreed, I've done that one as well - to be honest it's really not much more faff as like you say you will want to clip the rope to your harness to make sure you don't drop it anyhow.

I still prefer the bite method when possible as it's a bit quicker avoiding having to tie a full re-threaded fig-8.... although on second thoughts you could untie, re-thread and then still use a fig-8 on bite/screwgate...

In reply to Rock to Fakey:


There's a lot of valid variations, some more risk adverse than others!

Personally I'd always clip a quickdraw to the first bolt and then clip the rope as unless it's an easy route you could still fall off before making yourself safe. Then I'll climb up and attach my cowtails to the other ring.

Beyond that it depends on what the belayer is going to do and how you plan to re-tie. You should never be attached by just one bolt (If you read around you can find cases of belay bolts failing), so either you need to stay on belay or you should attach to the other bolt as well (or both if you are unsure). Luckly my belayer is attentive so I'd be happy just to hang on one bolt normally.

In reply to Rocknast:
>"I prefer to use a bight too"

Me too. The advantage of threading a bight is that it saves the time it taken to tie one knot. Disadvantage is you pull out a lot more slack which could be an issue if something goes wrong on a short route. Also, obviously if the anchors are small or choked with old corroded krabs it can be too difficult to thread the bight and so in that case the single strand method would be better.

What really scares me is the new-bie that top ropes a route and arrives at the anchor for his/her first go at threading having just unclipped all the bolts below. I wish more people would encourage their new-bie to clip the last couple of bolts into the belayer's rope after they unclipped them from the top rope.

In reply to jimtitt:

Yeah good point about Frankenjura. Never climbed there so wouldn't know about that. This is my point though about raising awareness on forums like this. Helps out everybody, very useful!

In reply to JLS:

Yes it would be concerning witnessing that.

Yeah the extra rope u would be required to pull through to use the a bight would be the most significant disadvantage using that method IMO