UKC

I set my goal this year to lead E1, having only led VS previously. Last week I tried my first HVS, Sounder at Troy. I got pumped at the crux so down climbed and ultimately weighted the gear as I went down to rest. I went back up and finished the route clean logging it as ground up (that's correct right?). Last night I went for the E1, Shivers Arete at Wilton 3 and got the lead. I seconded this last year so logged it as lead repeat. My logbook still shows my hardest trad lead as Sounder though. How come?

In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:

If you pulled your ropes it's ground-up, otherwise it's a yo-yo. But I think both are in general more difficult than repeating a route you've already done, even if just on second, as the ground is not known beforehand.

In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:


I *think* that if you left the gear and rope(s) in place, it's technically a "yo-yo" and no longer considered a clean ascent, because you're effectively on top-rope for part of it.

(Historically, there was a period when yo-yoing was considered fine on hard trad routes, and then expectations were re-shuffled a bit -- IIRC, Jerry Moffatt's book describes some of this period.)

For a "ground-up" ascent, you have to lead it cleanly from the ground placing the gear as you go. It's a point of pedantry, but one of those things.


No idea, but I noticed my logbook graphs also don't seem to reflect the stuff I did yesterday -- I wondered if there's a lag.

Anyway, congratulations on the E1 -- nice work! I hope you're basking in the achievement even if the logbook isn't . *g*

In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:


Up to you whether your HVS lead is "correct" but that's how I would have logged it. To answer your main question, that's how the logbooks work - anything "repeated" dosen't count as your hardest ascent. Personally if I'd seconded something a few months ago then lead it at a later date, I'd have logged it as Lead Beta, which I think would count as one of your hardest routes in the logbook. I'd log as such as having not lead it before I'm not really repeating a lead, and I wouldn't use Redpoint as to me this implies I've practiced on a TR beforehand rather than seconded.

All very personl though, and who cares what the log books on here say. Well done!

In reply to slab_happy:

I think there is a lag on logbooks from inputting a route to it then reflecting as hardest route done in graphs. Could be wrong but sure it has on mine in the past.

In reply to slab_happy:


Until redpoint became established in bolted sport climbing (wasn't even called sport climbing then), there was a bit of a grey area with what was a valid lead of a new trad route when it wasn't ground-up. Yo-yoing once gear had been weighted (but with no practice) was one of the options, was it more or less valid than top-rope (or other) practice followed by a clean lead since the yo-yo was on-sight (for each gain in height) whereas the practice was not.

Jerry's ascent of Strawberries was right on the edge of the grey, and as he said, he was young and inexperienced (although he did seem to have a smidgen of ability ) and didn't have a good appreciation of the subtleties at the time.

In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:

Doesn't the logbook only show hardest on-sight, but because it's a repeat it doesn't count?

Still, well done!

In reply to springfall2008:


I would guess that's right since the grade is for the onsight.

In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:
Well done on E1.

Technically your ascent was yo yo as others have said: to be ground up you have to lower right to floor once gear has been weighted then pull ropes and start afresh.

As for logbook...mine has three categories within hardest trad route: hardest solo, hardest onsight and hardest lead clean after practice (i.e. headpoint). So if you've not logged any thing as head point or solo then I guess hardest onsight will be your only category and therefore the repeat won't appear. Hope that helps.

Also looked at a couple of partners log books and they have similar categories - no sign of repeats. Have a look at my log - its open- if you want to see what I mean.

In reply to ianstevens:

Thanks all for your input. While i remembered? some aspects of the climb, the details aren't there. I remembered the was a side crimp at some point during or after the rockover. For those that know the route I had also just been regailed by a prominent local climber who was there when the peg was cemented in 30 year ago just how shallow and dubious it was. I should have got extra points for negative beta!

Anyway, I'll change the entry according to Ian's suggestion as it has the most likes. Hopefully soon this will be replaced by a clean onsight entry.

In reply to Rob Powell LC&CC:


Of another E1. Obviously I can't onsight Shivers now.