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Just wondering - does anyone make a QD from two lightweight screw gate crabs for use on cruical placements?
I can't think of any route examples but I guess some slate routes with a single cruical bolt would be the kinda place you'd employ such a tactic, or perhaps on a a cruical runner before a crux runout: somewhere where a freak unclip could be disastrous.
I can't think of any route examples but I guess some slate routes with a single cruical bolt would be the kinda place you'd employ such a tactic, or perhaps on a a cruical runner before a crux runout: somewhere where a freak unclip could be disastrous.
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In reply to A Random Climber:
I'm not aware of any. I wouldn't imagine anyone makes them either because the benefits of a QD (reduced chance of Krabs rotating ect) over a small sling are lost when you put a locker on each end.
I'd use a small a sling with two lockers if I thought a failure would be disastrous. Two back to back QDs is an option though obviously less secure.
I'm not aware of any. I wouldn't imagine anyone makes them either because the benefits of a QD (reduced chance of Krabs rotating ect) over a small sling are lost when you put a locker on each end.
I'd use a small a sling with two lockers if I thought a failure would be disastrous. Two back to back QDs is an option though obviously less secure.
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In reply to A Random Climber:
AFAIK, no manufacturer makes one, but still they are quite common. Mostly used on one of the bolts at the anchor for others to toprope from.
Common wordin' for such things is a SuperQD .i also have a 'half' superqd, used for hard to read routes or crucial bolts on redpoints, this one has a normsl crab for the gear/bolt and something less prone to open than a normal crab (used to be a screwgate offset D, now a fancy Grivel biner).
AFAIK, no manufacturer makes one, but still they are quite common. Mostly used on one of the bolts at the anchor for others to toprope from.
Common wordin' for such things is a SuperQD .i also have a 'half' superqd, used for hard to read routes or crucial bolts on redpoints, this one has a normsl crab for the gear/bolt and something less prone to open than a normal crab (used to be a screwgate offset D, now a fancy Grivel biner).
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In reply to A Random Climber:
I have made up one using two screw gates before, a route like Anvil Arete is a good idea as there is only the one bolt that protects the entire line
Anvil Arête (E2 5c)
Edit: There are now 2, one each side of the arete due to a rebolting scheme
I have made up one using two screw gates before, a route like Anvil Arete is a good idea as there is only the one bolt that protects the entire line
Anvil Arête (E2 5c)
Edit: There are now 2, one each side of the arete due to a rebolting scheme
In reply to A Random Climber:
I use an Edelrid slider with a small screw gate on the rope end on sports climbs where the next bolt is up to the right, for example, but the holds suggest that you will be moving left.
Al
I use an Edelrid slider with a small screw gate on the rope end on sports climbs where the next bolt is up to the right, for example, but the holds suggest that you will be moving left.
Al
In reply to A Random Climber:
I have one with two Edelrid sliders for exactly the situations you describe. Much easier & quicker than a screwgate- which however doesn't stop my partners moaning about it.
Don't find myself using it much
I have one with two Edelrid sliders for exactly the situations you describe. Much easier & quicker than a screwgate- which however doesn't stop my partners moaning about it.
Don't find myself using it much
In reply to A Random Climber:
I would just use a single screw-gate, it isn't a very common occurrence,
Chris
I would just use a single screw-gate, it isn't a very common occurrence,
Chris
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In reply to A Random Climber:
US climbers were made painfully aware of the problem of carabiners unclipping three years ago when Wayne Crill, a very experienced climber, had a terrible and and life-altering accident. He took a short fall on a new route attempt onto an RP with a Yates Screamer on it. The RP blew, the Ballnut underneath it blew, a #1 Camalot in a "perfect placement" blew, and then the carabiners on two pieces below that unclipped from their slings. The result was a 70 foot ground fall with exceptionally serious consequences. ( http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/gear-rips-leading-climber-crit... .)
People understood the micro gear blowing (in one case it appears the rock broke), and even the good #1 Camalot could be understood in the context that sometimes gear is not as good as it seems, but a great amount of anguish was associated with two further good pieces failing because the carabiners unclipped from their slings, and there was lots of discussion about having a quickdraw with screwgates at both ends available.
Although no one knows for sure what happened, it seems that the rather chaotic rope motions that result from a piece failing managed to open the gates of two carabiners, both of which were found on Crill's rope along with the top three pieces, while the gear the carabiners were originally attached to was found in the rock the next day. In a paper on the loads imposed by failing gear by Marc Beverly and Steven Attaway ( http://mra.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Beverly_Sequential_Falls2.pdf ), stills from high-speed video show the rope snapping back after gear fails, in the process developing curls and loops that could possibly open carabiner gates.
Crill's terrible accident, and the evidence from Beverly and Attaway 's paper, suggest that it could be important to "reinforce" placements below marginal ones, because the rope motions associated with gear failure might be able to open carabiner gates. Whether one carries a special "superdraw" for the purpose or doubles up carabiners on mission-critical placement is a matter of personal judgement. The message from Crill's tragedy is that rope dynamics after a piece fails can be very chaotic and good pieces underneath might be vulnerable to unclipping.
US climbers were made painfully aware of the problem of carabiners unclipping three years ago when Wayne Crill, a very experienced climber, had a terrible and and life-altering accident. He took a short fall on a new route attempt onto an RP with a Yates Screamer on it. The RP blew, the Ballnut underneath it blew, a #1 Camalot in a "perfect placement" blew, and then the carabiners on two pieces below that unclipped from their slings. The result was a 70 foot ground fall with exceptionally serious consequences. ( http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/gear-rips-leading-climber-crit... .)
People understood the micro gear blowing (in one case it appears the rock broke), and even the good #1 Camalot could be understood in the context that sometimes gear is not as good as it seems, but a great amount of anguish was associated with two further good pieces failing because the carabiners unclipped from their slings, and there was lots of discussion about having a quickdraw with screwgates at both ends available.
Although no one knows for sure what happened, it seems that the rather chaotic rope motions that result from a piece failing managed to open the gates of two carabiners, both of which were found on Crill's rope along with the top three pieces, while the gear the carabiners were originally attached to was found in the rock the next day. In a paper on the loads imposed by failing gear by Marc Beverly and Steven Attaway ( http://mra.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Beverly_Sequential_Falls2.pdf ), stills from high-speed video show the rope snapping back after gear fails, in the process developing curls and loops that could possibly open carabiner gates.
Crill's terrible accident, and the evidence from Beverly and Attaway 's paper, suggest that it could be important to "reinforce" placements below marginal ones, because the rope motions associated with gear failure might be able to open carabiner gates. Whether one carries a special "superdraw" for the purpose or doubles up carabiners on mission-critical placement is a matter of personal judgement. The message from Crill's tragedy is that rope dynamics after a piece fails can be very chaotic and good pieces underneath might be vulnerable to unclipping.
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In reply to rgold:
Just a minor point that, if I'm interpreting the link you gave correctly, the Camalot did not blow, it was one of the two pieces that unclipped.
> a #1 Camalot in a "perfect placement" blew, and then the carabiners on two pieces below that unclipped from their slings.
Just a minor point that, if I'm interpreting the link you gave correctly, the Camalot did not blow, it was one of the two pieces that unclipped.
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In reply to A Random Climber:
I don't think anyone sells them, but it's easy enough to make one yourself with a small screwgate such as the Phantom.
I've done that a couple of times, such as on Masambula on the slate, where you have a huge run-out with only one bolt between you and the deck. I put a screwgate on the rope end of the draw, since that's the end where the rope would be whipping around, though didn't bother for the bolt end.
> does anyone make a QD from two lightweight screw gate crabs for use on cruical placements?
I don't think anyone sells them, but it's easy enough to make one yourself with a small screwgate such as the Phantom.
I've done that a couple of times, such as on Masambula on the slate, where you have a huge run-out with only one bolt between you and the deck. I put a screwgate on the rope end of the draw, since that's the end where the rope would be whipping around, though didn't bother for the bolt end.
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In reply to rgold:
The directional forces placed on rock protection and runners change, when it is no longer the next runner below you. If you fall on a runner it is 99% of the time a downward force, but once you have more in it is generally pulled left or right as the rope tries to shorten the distance. A bit like when your first runner can have an upward pull if your belayer stands too far back.
The directional forces placed on rock protection and runners change, when it is no longer the next runner below you. If you fall on a runner it is 99% of the time a downward force, but once you have more in it is generally pulled left or right as the rope tries to shorten the distance. A bit like when your first runner can have an upward pull if your belayer stands too far back.
In reply to summo:
I think you might be correct but making the mistake of thinking about things in a too static manner.
rgold describes it well as "rather chaotic rope motions".
The problems of rope and gate "flutter" are well known but unfortunately not predictable.
I often wonder how many times gates have opened but fortunately shut again without the rope coming out.
Shit happens, take care and back up when you can.
I think you might be correct but making the mistake of thinking about things in a too static manner.
rgold describes it well as "rather chaotic rope motions".
The problems of rope and gate "flutter" are well known but unfortunately not predictable.
I often wonder how many times gates have opened but fortunately shut again without the rope coming out.
Shit happens, take care and back up when you can.
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In reply to A Random Climber:
I first came across the use of such QDs by French climbers about 15-18 years ago, so I guess they've been around for a good while. I very quickly adopted the practice having had the rationale explained to me. Since then I've always had one as part of my sport QD set, but in concert with what other posters have said, I've only ever used it on what I considered to be highly crucial bolts.
In reality, because of normally thoughtful/ well-planned bolting, I've rarely had to use it in anger, but any route where the majority might consider the first bolt to be placed stupidly/ dangerously high might be an obvious candidate for such a QD. As possibly suggested by the OP, this criteria would apply to many of the older 'designer danger' bolted slate routes such as Massambula, which has already been mentioned above. 'Designer danger' bolting is still very much alive and well - as relatively new sport climbs (post 2011) in places such as Ruthin Escarpment/ Pwll Glas which have all been bolted (or retrobolted) with what many would consider to be dangerously high first bolts, even on lower grade climbs. At least clip sticks can now be used to protect those concerned about their mortality - or even just their ankles (although perhaps not on Massambula).
I also agree that a draw with 2 locking krabs would be overkill in the vast majority of instances as the main risk of inadvertent unclipping has to be at the rope end of the draw. The account of Wayne Crill's accident makes for some very sobering reading.
[Edited for spelling/ punctuation]
I first came across the use of such QDs by French climbers about 15-18 years ago, so I guess they've been around for a good while. I very quickly adopted the practice having had the rationale explained to me. Since then I've always had one as part of my sport QD set, but in concert with what other posters have said, I've only ever used it on what I considered to be highly crucial bolts.
In reality, because of normally thoughtful/ well-planned bolting, I've rarely had to use it in anger, but any route where the majority might consider the first bolt to be placed stupidly/ dangerously high might be an obvious candidate for such a QD. As possibly suggested by the OP, this criteria would apply to many of the older 'designer danger' bolted slate routes such as Massambula, which has already been mentioned above. 'Designer danger' bolting is still very much alive and well - as relatively new sport climbs (post 2011) in places such as Ruthin Escarpment/ Pwll Glas which have all been bolted (or retrobolted) with what many would consider to be dangerously high first bolts, even on lower grade climbs. At least clip sticks can now be used to protect those concerned about their mortality - or even just their ankles (although perhaps not on Massambula).
I also agree that a draw with 2 locking krabs would be overkill in the vast majority of instances as the main risk of inadvertent unclipping has to be at the rope end of the draw. The account of Wayne Crill's accident makes for some very sobering reading.
[Edited for spelling/ punctuation]
Post edited at 11:12
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In reply to Rick Graham:
I wasn't disputing the falling rope chaos etc.. only that most people place runners thinking about protecting the next section, once they become just another runner, forces are applied from different angles.
Gate flutter is absolute minimal with wire gates. 20years ago it was certainly different.
I wasn't disputing the falling rope chaos etc.. only that most people place runners thinking about protecting the next section, once they become just another runner, forces are applied from different angles.
Gate flutter is absolute minimal with wire gates. 20years ago it was certainly different.
In reply to A Random Climber:
I don't think it's something most climbers worry about - if you've clipped correctly the chances are minimal. There are plenty times on routes (particularly low down) when there is effectively only one piece stopping a ground fall. If you are worried and it is for a particular route, surely just swap the snap gates for screwgates?
I don't think it's something most climbers worry about - if you've clipped correctly the chances are minimal. There are plenty times on routes (particularly low down) when there is effectively only one piece stopping a ground fall. If you are worried and it is for a particular route, surely just swap the snap gates for screwgates?
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
Surely it would be more secure? Total redundancy.
Although I'd you're gonna use two QDs you might as well get another bit of gear in, if you can.
> a small a sling with two lockers if I thought a failure would be disastrous. Two back to back QDs is an option though obviously less secure.
Surely it would be more secure? Total redundancy.
Although I'd you're gonna use two QDs you might as well get another bit of gear in, if you can.
Post edited at 13:00
In reply to A Random Climber:
I always carry one QD with a screwgate at rope end and generally use it for my first placement or a higher critical placement. I only climb very low-grade so it's always easy to find a comfortable stance to tighten the screwgate.
I always carry one QD with a screwgate at rope end and generally use it for my first placement or a higher critical placement. I only climb very low-grade so it's always easy to find a comfortable stance to tighten the screwgate.
In reply to A Random Climber:
I call them slowdraws...
I have two that I made up with DMM fat nylon dogbones (same as on DMM alpha quickdraws) and a pair of (I think) Shadow screwgates (one red, one silver). They were for my 'sport' rack of quickdraws so not lightweight. Useful for things like clipping in a top-rope to sport route anchors with a bit more security. I also use them when stripping the anchor and there are two unconnected bolts; I clip into one with my cowstail (sling) and clip the other with the slowdraw into the sling. In the unlikely event one bolt fails I will take a (small) fall onto a static sling, but at least it won't unclip. Given the unfavourable geometry I wouldn't at all be surprised if a quickdraw clipped into the sling would unclip. I think clipping into the anchor with two quickdraws would actually be a lot better in this regard.
Does annoy people though when, having pulled the rope down to lead, they get to the anchors and find they have to unscrew the screwgate to clip in though! :P
Pretty sure I used one (if not both) on Looning the Tube. The advantage of a slowdraw over a single screwgate here is a) you only scratch up the 'bolt' carabiner (although this shouldn't be an issue unless you fall on it!) and b) you have a bit more extension (not as much as putting on a 60cm+ sling, of course) so the rope runs a bit more freely.
I call them slowdraws...
I have two that I made up with DMM fat nylon dogbones (same as on DMM alpha quickdraws) and a pair of (I think) Shadow screwgates (one red, one silver). They were for my 'sport' rack of quickdraws so not lightweight. Useful for things like clipping in a top-rope to sport route anchors with a bit more security. I also use them when stripping the anchor and there are two unconnected bolts; I clip into one with my cowstail (sling) and clip the other with the slowdraw into the sling. In the unlikely event one bolt fails I will take a (small) fall onto a static sling, but at least it won't unclip. Given the unfavourable geometry I wouldn't at all be surprised if a quickdraw clipped into the sling would unclip. I think clipping into the anchor with two quickdraws would actually be a lot better in this regard.
Does annoy people though when, having pulled the rope down to lead, they get to the anchors and find they have to unscrew the screwgate to clip in though! :P
Pretty sure I used one (if not both) on Looning the Tube. The advantage of a slowdraw over a single screwgate here is a) you only scratch up the 'bolt' carabiner (although this shouldn't be an issue unless you fall on it!) and b) you have a bit more extension (not as much as putting on a 60cm+ sling, of course) so the rope runs a bit more freely.
Post edited at 14:01
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
It's not entirely clear. The article clearly says that the next two pieces unclipped, which is your observation, but it also says that the belayer observed three pieces and two carabiners on the rope after the accident. If indeed the first good piece (the #1 Camalot in the "perfect" placement) stayed in, then the unclipping phenomenon becomes even more crucial to the outcome, since everything that "should" have stayed in did.
As you say, a minor point, the main one being the unusual conditions that can obtain when a piece fails.
> Just a minor point that, if I'm interpreting the link you gave correctly, the Camalot did not blow, it was one of the two pieces that unclipped.
It's not entirely clear. The article clearly says that the next two pieces unclipped, which is your observation, but it also says that the belayer observed three pieces and two carabiners on the rope after the accident. If indeed the first good piece (the #1 Camalot in the "perfect" placement) stayed in, then the unclipping phenomenon becomes even more crucial to the outcome, since everything that "should" have stayed in did.
As you say, a minor point, the main one being the unusual conditions that can obtain when a piece fails.
Post edited at 14:09
In reply to Dell:
Do you mean two standard QDs is more secure than a locking Krab? I've always thought a screwgate is more secure, that's why they're used for top ropes and belays ect.
I agree that two bits of a gear is better than one with two QDs. I think the OP is talking more about crucial placements where no other gear is available though.
Do you mean two standard QDs is more secure than a locking Krab? I've always thought a screwgate is more secure, that's why they're used for top ropes and belays ect.
I agree that two bits of a gear is better than one with two QDs. I think the OP is talking more about crucial placements where no other gear is available though.
In reply to rgold:
There is also I think a youtube vid which shows a couple of pieces unclipping (or it might be one piece plus one krab snapping) on a fall on the west face of learning tower.
> US climbers were made painfully aware of the problem of carabiners unclipping three years ago when Wayne Crill, a very experienced climber, had a terrible and and life-altering accident. He took a short fall on a new route attempt onto an RP with a Yates Screamer on it. The RP blew, the Ballnut underneath it blew, a #1 Camalot in a "perfect placement" blew, and then the carabiners on two pieces below that unclipped from their slings. The result was a 70 foot ground fall with exceptionally serious consequences.
There is also I think a youtube vid which shows a couple of pieces unclipping (or it might be one piece plus one krab snapping) on a fall on the west face of learning tower.
In reply to rgold:
Interesting and sobering reading. I've checked out the previously mentioned Edelrid Sliders and I reckon it'd be worth making up a couple of draws with these crabs. I reckon they'd be sensible both for use on lone mission-crucial bolts or gear, as well as on the last anticipated bomber piece before a crux, especially if there are subsequent poor pieces that could be expected to fail in the event of a fall.
The Edelrid Sliders seem to be an excellent weight compromise over a draw made of two screw-gates.
Interesting and sobering reading. I've checked out the previously mentioned Edelrid Sliders and I reckon it'd be worth making up a couple of draws with these crabs. I reckon they'd be sensible both for use on lone mission-crucial bolts or gear, as well as on the last anticipated bomber piece before a crux, especially if there are subsequent poor pieces that could be expected to fail in the event of a fall.
The Edelrid Sliders seem to be an excellent weight compromise over a draw made of two screw-gates.
In reply to A Random Climber:
I don't routinely carry one but I have occasionally made one up (or used back to back 'draws) for a critical clip. I've had at least two freak unclippings over the years that I'm aware of, probably more that I'm not and one of those was on a minimally bolted slate route leaving me essentially solo and feeling long way from the now useless bolt.
jk
I don't routinely carry one but I have occasionally made one up (or used back to back 'draws) for a critical clip. I've had at least two freak unclippings over the years that I'm aware of, probably more that I'm not and one of those was on a minimally bolted slate route leaving me essentially solo and feeling long way from the now useless bolt.
jk
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