UKC

I believe that people should vote, infact that they have a duty to vote. However we have a by election in a couple of weeks , and I know nothing about it whatsoever, and we have had no leaflets and I have noticed no posters, so I cannot get excited about that. And I have just realised that there is a strong chance I will not vote in the fothcoming General Election. We had one a couple of years ago and then the referendum and now this. But non of it seems to resolve much.
I wonder how many other people are feeling the same, and will not bother to vote.

In reply to J1234:

I'm going to vote, but yeah am sick of the whole thing.
I only hope it annoys enough people to actually get them out to vote as we might actually get a change then.
Sadly doubt it will happen though

In reply to J1234:

Is there anybody left who has any faith in manifesto promises? I find it very hard to summon any enthusiasm for politics in this country. It's like getting invested in a conversation with a pathological liar, you know he's talking bollocks so why get worked up over what he's saying?

I still vote, but for years now I've followed a policy of voting for the least repugnant candidate who has no chance of getting in. A totally ineffective protest vote.

In reply to J1234:

I suspect this will work in the tories favour. We' saw it in brexit and the last GE- the supposed radical activist youth (and not so youth-y) vote stay away in droves because voting doesn't change anything/ other poor excuse) and the reliable unengaged, but regularly voting older vote dutifully turned out and voted triple lock pension, so back sailed the tories.

yeah, I know, lazy stereotypes, but the old tend to vote small c conservative and in their own short term interest, whilst the young don't vote at all, even though they will be the ones who have most at risk 10 years hence

In reply to J1234:

Do you mean a by-election or the local elections? surely a by-election would be cancelled now?
In many countries, the local elections would have the most impact on you, but not sure that's true in the UK.

I think if you're anti-Tory, then you can use the local elections as a dry run. Vote with your heart in the local elections, then vote for whoever is best placed at the general election.

In reply to toad:

Radical youth, thats an interesting comment. My perception is the youth of today are rather conservative, which is a shame.

In reply to Stichtplate:

(One of) May's problems, of course, is that she in power on the basis of a manifesto which was not hers. If nothing else we might now actually get some evidence of what her politics really are.

As for "voter fatigue", we are seeing some of the biggest changes nationally and globally since WW2. If people can't be bothered to vote at this time because "there's too much politics" then they deserve what they get.

In reply to Postmanpat:

.As for "voter fatigue", we are seeing some of the biggest changes nationally and globally since WW2. If people can't be bothered to vote at this time because "there's too much politics" then they deserve what they get.

I fear you are right. Actually, that was too long

I fear...

In reply to Postmanpat:



Of course your right, but at the personal level does much really change for the majority. Even following the crash of 2008 it was not as cataclysimic as it could have been, maybe even should have been. Through QE and continued borrowing it was sort of pushed into the future.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I wouldn't trust May to honour her pledges anymore than any other PM we've had over the last 30 years.
Without any basic honesty in Uk politics the voter is left in the same position as a man driving a car with his eyes closed. Yes he gets to turn the wheel , but he still has no idea where he's going.

As for them sticking to 80% of manifesto pledges, pull the other one!

In reply to J1234:

>
Well, it depends what is negotiated. My guess is that we muddle through but there are worse and better outcomes, and that's before considering what happens to the Union.....

In reply to Postmanpat:

but at the personal level does much really change for the majority

In reply to Stichtplate:

>
The problem seems to me less that politicians "lie" than that they, particularly Cameron and May, will not articulate a view. The problem is that, as all leaders (aka Trump) discover, reality mugs the best (and worst) of intentions at which point they get accused of lying or U turns etc. So they tend to keep their intentions to themselves.

The problem with this, of course, that the media and public can impose whatever image of the politician suits their case; "Cruella" or "Saint Theresa"

In reply to J1234:


I think the "Thatcher revolution" had very significant real impact on a personal level-for better or worse is of course a matter of opinion. Same for the Atlee government.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Dissembling and sophistry is just telling lies with a fancy hat on . They should stop treating the electorate like idiots and try a little honesty for a change.

In reply to Stichtplate:


I agree, but it would be a disaster.

In reply to Postmanpat:


What's the point of even pretending we live in a mature democracy when the default position of every major party is to treat voters as immature halfwits who can't be trusted to recognise the harsh realities of the world we live in?

In reply to Stichtplate:

Wouldn't doing otherwise be lying in itself? Catch 22.

In reply to Stichtplate:


A mature democracy would require voters to be in possession of sufficient and sufficiently accurate information on which to base voting decisions. In this sense I fear our democracy is rapidly becoming less mature.

In reply to Stichtplate:


Maybe we live in a very tired and anachronistic democracy?

In reply to MG:

Cynical in the extreme. I still have faith in the majority of people and firmly believe that if you treat people like adults they're much more likely to act like adults.

In reply to Postmanpat:


This is why many people disengage with politics, they hear people talking about it and rattling on about things 30 or 60 years ago, but will not give a yes or no straight answer. Eddy Marr and Paxo try to get the answers, but its hard and then you get the old ABC approach Acknowlegde. Bridge Control that nearly every politico uses, and once you know about it, really annoys.

My answer to "but at the personal level does much really change for the majority"
is
No

In reply to john arran:


I also think a mature democracy would ensure a more equitable representation of votes cast in both the House of Commons and House of Lords, unlike our current horror show in which one-third of the electorate elects the winning party, often with a sizeable majority, and the remaining two-thirds have no meaningful representation, and in which we have a bunch of unelected bag carriers and cronies representing no-one.

In reply to tony:

Totally agree, a move to PR would transform democracy in this country rather than the current system which does not represent the will of the people.

In reply to J1234:

Guys dont just not vote out of despair and dissillusion, because you can be sure all the frothing at the mouth nutters WILL vote. And if you dont vote (assuming most of the people on here are not really nutters) then that gives the nutters a bigger share of the vote. Hold your nose if neccesary, but do vote. Then get drunk, drown your existential despair in whisky and prepare for a depressing morning after.

In reply to J1234:


Yeah, to pick one policy area: you're now paying through the nose for your education and your kids will be paying more still if they can afford it at all. That's a choice we made at the balot box.
jk

In reply to J1234:

but its not just about the majority is it..its also about those who one way or another find themselves on the shitty end of the stick... and for them over the last few years things have got very much shittier. So while many people still trundle along in relative comfort and say "ah well nothing that much has changed" there are whole communities as well as individuals who have found themselves tossed off the lifeboat and into shit creek - and there are reasons we should worry about this - 1) because this can become a recruiting ground for truly nasty parties and 2) because thats what decent societies do - they support each other rather than abandon the unlucky ones to just sink into the mire

In reply to Postmanpat:


Why? We should demand it, of the people we elect and they should be held account for the lies they tell us.

In reply to pebbles:


Sadly this reasoning has been burnt at the stake sometime ago ( but I wholeheartedly agree with you post), I believe JC will try and correct this but I'm not sure he'll be give the chance to, not by the people but by the press and his own MPs who would rather see Labour fail than support him.

In reply to krikoman:


Because telling the truth: for example, that we expect a standard of living and ever rising incomes that are unsustainable, is a recipe for never winning another election.

In reply to J1234:
The less people get engaged and vote, the weaker our democracy becomes.

People have died for the right to vote, so we must do.

It's a bi preachy sounding, but we can't not vote when it's such a precious thing to be able to.

In reply to J1234:

Tried to explain the parliamentary system to my daughter (11 years old) and just made me realise how ineffectual our single vote is, I have always believed that democracy doesn't just depend on the act of voting but is a system of checks and balances, such as the human rights act, employment laws, fair taxation, local representation, GP's, legal representation, a fair and functioning police force, things that are not a 100% sorted that have been developing over the last hundred years to be more representative and that parliaments job is to ensure these work correctly and carry on the process of moving them forward, unfortunately these underpinnings of democracy are being dismantled or have started to move backwards.

In reply to Postmanpat:


"I have nothing to offer you but blood, sweat and tears..."

Arguably our nations darkest hour and a shot of harsh reality that was gratefully received by the vast majority of the public. You should have more faith in people.

In reply to jonfun21:


Replace the phrase "will of the people" with the phrase "diversity of opinion, desires and needs of the people".

The phrase "will of the people" has no place in a mature democracy.

In reply to Timmd:

Whilst I sort of agree, isn't part of having the right to vote, having the right to chose? And if so, people can have the right to chose not to vote for any candidate.

In this case, I would prefer people spoilt their ballot paper, so that it was recognised as part of the turnout, but I accept that part of (our) democracy is having the right not to vote!

In reply to Timmd:


I totally agree with you, but (why does there always have to be a but?) I am aknowledging I may not vote, and if I am thinking that, it is a fair bet others are. It will be interesting to note the turn out. See you here on 9th June?

In reply to Castleman:


With rights come responsibilities, sadly nowadays people focus far too much on their rights, whilst ignoring their responsibilities.
Thats what I think anyway

In reply to Castleman:

Philosophical I agree with the right not to vote, but 'practically' speaking, I think not voting weakens our democratic process. I might be wrong, but I have a gut feeling that it does.

I guess the above sums up my point of view

Edit: With how people will queue for hours when threat to their well being to vote in other countries, I think it's really sad that people disengage from voting. Things will only improve if we engage more fully, and beyond just voting, I think.

In reply to J1234:

I don't know for certain, but I suspect tory voters are more likely to get out and vote than the 'fatigued others'.

Modern left-leaning people are not represented in parliament in any meaningful way. The only thing we have is old-school Socialism, whose existence relied in the past on the collective sensibilities and common purposes around the presence of heavy industry, like coal and iron and steel. Strong communities formed around them, and as those industries faded into obscurity, so too did the communities.

That's not to say that 'the left' is dead - far from it; it's just that it has now become too scattered and fragmented into disparate, disillusioned factions to have any chance of being translated into political power. If the political powers that be were more concerned in representing the people who vote, rather than those who fund, the left would stand a better chance.

Personally, I'm so deeply sickened by Brexit that I am considering protest voting for one of the few parties that oppose it. Far from being "the will of the people", the filthy Brexit campaign was (and still is) predicated on lies, disinformation and marketing spin - on both sides. On that basis, I can't bring myself to vote for anybody who blindly accepts Brexit as a fait accompli, which includes the Labour Party.

In reply to J1234:


I don't understand your reasoning, are you saying you won't vote because nobody has made the effort to leaflet you so you won't make the effort to vote. That's daft if you even remotely care about what kind of country you live in or even have a view even if only on a on a single issue.

Or are you saying you really don't care, the country could be run by Greens or UKIP, Tories or Labour and still nothing will change? If so, you're wrong and you know it.

Or are you saying your MP's seat is so safe there's no point, you'd either be making them safer or voting for change that won't happen? Again, it's only safe because people bother to vote for the incumbent or are disheartened about voting for alternatives. Each cycle it gets worse because why vote for someone that "can't" win, what's the point... Why not register your support knowing all you're doing this time is making it easier for others to believe, to hope enough to bother voting next time. We don't do revolution so if it's change you want you need patience and determination and belief that it can come, slowly, grudgingly but it will eventually if people want it and do what they can to bring it about. If it's more of the same then fair enough but you still have to vote for it.

Perhaps it's something else? Perhaps a seemingly smart, engaged guy has a really good reason for not bothering to make their opinion heard?
jk

In reply to jkarran:

I am just worn out with it*.
The last general election I really considered my options, considered Tory, LibDem, UKIP and Green, I could not stomach Milliband.
Referendum, it was right up to the night before that I thought about it.
Because I thought they both mattered.
Since then all my chums have been banging on about it on Facebook, quite nasty some of it to, you darent go in the pub or climbing hut and mention Brexit, no discussion just banging back and forwards from entrenched view points. I actually like discussion because I a can and do change my mind, because sometimes I am wrong. So nothing settled there, and now it starts all over again, but whatever happens people will not accept it, and just start pulling together.

* A term I do not like, but does this make me a "Snowflake"

In reply to J1234:

I wonder if, thinking cynically, this election is calculated also to reduce the stomach for a Scottish Independence Referendum in the future, ie push it into the far distance.

In reply to Stichtplate:


I don't. Give the them a choice and they buy the DM or the Sun and watch X factor.

People want to be fed on sound bites. And see the title of this thread as another example.

In reply to J1234:

What by-election?

In reply to J1234:
I will vote, but only because I think our MP does a good job (big Tim Farron).

My usual rule is not to vote because I don't like encouraging them.

In reply to The New NickB:


We have covered that, its a local election. The point is, I am not a dolt for not knowing this, local government and the political parties have failed in not informing me.

In reply to J1234:

My friend's running for County Councillor in the local elections for her first time in May, she has worked her ass off these last few months and I really feel for her as it is clearly going to be massively overshadowed by the calling of the snap election.

In reply to john arran:


FTFY.

In reply to Stichtplate:

>

Interesting article:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/apr/19/theresa-may-manifesto...