UKC

I'm thinking some kind of multi-functional belay device which is double roped, and can be used to ascend with and has a guide mode could be a good thing to have.

If anybody's been climbing long enough to have used spring stichtplates, what modern belay devices are approximately as grippy?

For another way of putting it, I found the original ATC to be a little bit slick for my peace of mind when belaying people heavier than me, so grippier than that is what I'm aiming for.

In reply to Timmd:

Not used a sprung plate so can't offer a comparison buto a dmm pivot might cover your needs

In reply to Timmd:

An ATC has almost identical braking force to a standard Sticht plate, the ATC XP around 25% more so the obvious answer is buy an ATC XP Guide or if you prefer British then a DMM Pivot which is slightly lower.

In reply to Timmd:

I grew up climbing with a StichtPlate and still have one or two kicking around the 'old gear' drawer. But it's been long enough since I used one I couldn't give you a fair comparison. But I think you'll find the advantages of the newer devices (eg.: guide mode) outweigh any nostalgia you may have for the older plates. Having used the ATC, Reverso & Pivot extensively I've settled on the DMM Pivot as my go-to device.

While you may be sensitive to the friction levels of each device wouldn't your choice of rope (diameter & sheath characteristics) be a better way to achieve the performance you're looking for? (Granted that may mean packing additional weight with a thicker rope).

In reply to Timmd:

I thought this was going to be the opening line of a poem

In reply to Wild Isle:

What it is, is I like the grippy nature of sprung sticht plates, and think a newer more multi skilled belay device would be a good thing to have, and it's probably best to pick a rope type on it's own merits, rather than how it interacts with the belay device I used. A rope is a big purchase, and belay devices are much cheaper.

In reply to jimtitt:


Thanks, that's very helpful.

In reply to AlanLittle:

Belay grippy as sprung Stichtplates, grippier than ATC
I don't want to think twice,
About my belay device.
But if I can catch a lead fall I'll be happy.

In reply to Timmd:

I quite like the Wild Country pro guide light as a belay device with guide option, for pure light simplicity I really like the DMM Mantis, which has a better rope size range than a good few plates, and is alarmingly light.

In reply to Wayne S:

Mantis looks good, replaces buggette I guess, anyone tested this - how does it stand up next to ATC xp

In reply to John Kelly:

Obviously I have a mantis, or I would not have recommended!

My test results:

It works* well on slick (new) skinny halfs (8mm) and would be fine on thinner still, and I didn't have any issue using it with a 10.5mm fat wall rope either. I can't think of a lighter plate, so not much not to like. Not really like a bug/buggette IMHO, its not sticky and has a more progressive control due to the grooves. Abseil is smooth too. As good as any plate I have used and by far the lightest.

*works = holds leader falls, rather than just handles nice.

In reply to Timmd:

Not specific to the topic, but a somewhat related general question - am I the only person that *hates* being belayed as a second in guide mode? The jerky tugging, the faff if you want to step down and try a move a different way, the near certainty of being dropped to your doom if you need to be lowered for some reason ...

I can see the arguments for it for saving on belayer effort on big alpine routes that it was designed for, but I dislike the idea that seems to be taking over that it's the standard approach in any other circumstances.

In reply to AlanLittle:

The lowering is a bit of a faff, especially if people haven't practised, but the belaying style is avoidable. The belayer just needs to be a bit more sympathetic and not just yard the rope in like many do.

In reply to Timmd:

Been using a Mantis and previously was on a wc vc guide. The Mantis is noticably more controlable with better feeding and better friction aswell as far as an anachdotal feeling goes... I also have an Alpine Up which is assited lock, and imo has the best guide mode out there as it's easy to pull ropes through. Its a super versatile tool with a standard dynamic belay too, autolocking abseil and ascender usages too. But it's big and much heavier than most belay devices...

In reply to AlanLittle:


I think much of the problem is with users not understanding how to belay in guide mode - go softly, leave a little slack, don't use it if the second is going to want to try the crux several times.

In reply to Timmd:

If you want more grip, just add another locker whenever you feel the need. This allows one to tune the plate to the rope and user - for example heavy leader, light second with low grip strength:

http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/10GettingBackDown.htm#addingfriction

In reply to David Coley:

>>don't use it if the second is going to want to try the crux several times.

That rather assumes that you know in advance whether the second will do the crux first go or not ... you have a crystal ball on your rack? (o::

In reply to AlanLittle:


God yes. particularly getting pulled off balance on slabs, or even worse, getting pulled backwards when you are under an overhang and the rope is taken in too tight.

In reply to AlanLittle:
To be honest it's because many devices seem to have a guide mode, and people talk about it in social media that I thought it seemed like an extra mode worth having if I was after a device which had more than one mode, in being an usable as an ascender as well.

Sitting with my legs dangling over the edge and being in tune with what the other person is doing seems most in the spirit of climbing.

In reply to Timmd:

Edelrid Megajul

In reply to Timmd:
Maybe if they changed the name from 'guide mode' to ' innattentive with poor grip strength mode' they would be less popular

In reply to John Kelly:

Guide mode can sound quite 'cool' and 'pro climber' I guess.

In reply to John Kelly:

If I was marketing a belay device I'd call it Guide-mode too.

In reply to Timmd:
Another shout for the DMM Mantis. Not had mine long but been very impressed: light good on broad range of rope diameters, good on abseil. Previously used Wild Country VC pro and Mantis is better.

In reply to climberchristy:


Here something I really don't understand (DMM is by no means the only offender on this). DMM say: "Compatible with half ropes from 7.3mm to 9.2mm. Compatible with single ropes from 8.5mm to 11mm."

If they had said "twin ropes" I would understand it. But using with half ropes means a single strand will typically be doing the catching, and for single strands the advertised lower limit is 8.5mm.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Boy am I every with you on this one! A few people have mentioned that it is possible to give a decent belay using a guide mode, and this is true---I've done it lots of times, but I still find it extremely rare that a guide-mode belayer gives a pleasant belay. If you are going to give a decent guide-mode belay, it takes as much and perhaps more attention as a harness-level belay, and, let's face it, guide mode is mostly about not paying attention so you can do other things. So guide mode has few advantages if you are going to pay attention, and retains significant disadvantages, not only in lowering, but also in the general effort level needed to take in the ropes. I might add that I can also manage two followers better with a harness-level belay than with a guide-mode belay so there is no intrinsic advantage there either.

I keep saying "harness-level" here because I use a snug anchor strand and clip the belay device to the rope loop. This is just as much a direct belay off the anchor as the guide-mode belay, the only difference being that the harness-level configuration adds a shock-absorbing bit of dynamic climbing rope as a connector.

So, having heaped scorn on the method, why do I still use it? Well I don't all that much, but on small partially or fully hanging stances, I find the ability to go momentarily hands-free to cleanly stack the rope over the anchor strand makes a considerable difference in keeping tangles at bay for the leader of the next pitch. And when standing, using a harness-level belay obliges me to bend over quite a lot, and my back isn't always happy about that. The guide-mode belay is in some cases a less stressful alternative.

In reply to rgold:

Agreed that does seem odd. My half ropes are 8.5mm so never really considered it. I didn't realise their spec says as low as 7.3. Does anyone use anything that skinny?!

In reply to climberchristy:


There are plenty of half ropes around 8.0 mm, which according to DMM is too small for single-strand catches.