UKC

Hi,
One for any lawyers out there.
One of my children is thinking of adding to her pocket money by selling cam trigger wire repair kits. Is there any reason this would be a bad idea? E.g. someone claiming the reason they nearly died was that the repair snapped so they couldn't use the cam to abseil off just as the storm arrived.

Note. She is not offering a repair service, just the bits and instructions.

A big thank you from her in advance.

In reply to David Coley:

The though of going through all the rigmarole of setting up as a small trader and doing accounts/tax returns/NI etc makes me shudder, isn´ t mowing someones lawn easier?
And I think it is you that would be sued if she is a minor since she isn´ t of a responsible age and can´ t make a contract unless she sets up a limited company.

In reply to David Coley:

I'm no expert but that sounds like very thin ice to me.

In reply to David Coley:

Of course she could always produce and sell a 'toy cam' and then also market a 'toy cam repair kit', with the words 'not for climbing' clearly stated on the packaging

In reply to David Coley:

Logically I would say that the trigger wire is not a component that is necessary for the cam to function safely.

Surely the worst that could happen is that someone sues for the loss of a cam that they couldn't retrieve?

In reply to timjones:

>Surely the worst that could happen is that someone sues for the loss of a cam that they couldn't retrieve?

If they are still around to be able to do so. However. Family will almost certainly be there to sue if not!

In reply to David Coley:

Don't advertise as repair kits and don't supply instructions.

just sell strimmer wire off a roll!

In reply to David Coley:

Obviously great to support one's child in an enterprise but I am not sure that if I were you and things did go wrong I'd want to have the caveats you cite rattling round the back of my mind. And I also find myself wondering how if things went wrong I'd help my child negotiate their own thoughts and feelings.

In reply to Solaris:

That last point is a very interesting one that will need some thinking about. Thanks

In reply to David Coley:

I can't see how the repair kit could create a weakness in the device

I can see that you could find yourself with a device that can't be used, or can't be retrieved, but that's always the case (memories of the cam graveyard on Kundalini).

Nonetheless even a groundless accusation could be traumatic to deal with

In reply to brianjcooper:

As I understand it (I assume people with better engineering knowledge will correct me if I'm wrong), you need the trigger wires on a cam to retract it -- not for it to hold. If the wires break, the problem will be that you can't remove it, not that it fails.

People rarely die from "stuck cam".

The only cases I can imagine would be the sort the OP comes up with, where not being able to retrieve a crucial cam meant not having it to use in a life-threatening situation.

On the other hand, I can imagine that if the trigger wire repair failed, someone might lose an expensive cam and ask for compensation for it. Even if the repair kit was sold with appropriate "use at your own risk, no guarantees" legal boilerplate, that would still have the potential to be stressful and upsetting to resolve.

In reply to David Coley:

Has anyone sued a Cam company because the wire snapped in the first place?

In reply to David Coley:

If the worst happens, let's hope ambulance chasing lawyers don't find this thread!

In reply to slab_happy:

I think you need to think beyond what could go wrong if a competent person repaired the trigger wire to what could go wrong if a person who doesn't know what they are doing started to take a cam apart and didn't put it back together correctly. An incompetent person can't be assumed to only touch those bits of the cam necessary to fix the trigger wire. There was an accident in Italy where someone died as a result of quickdraws being assembled wrongly by a family member and I think the company that supplied them was sued. I'm not saying that it is a good thing that companies could be sued as a result of a customer making a mistake or that in the UK such a lawsuit would be successful just that it might happen and if it did it could cost a lot of money in before it was decided.

It seems to me that this is the kind of business which is better suited to a reasonable sized company with enough resources to have engineers certify the product and lawyers and insurance to defend itself if things go wrong.

In reply to slab_happy:


What about the potential of failing to make a "thank god" placement because the trigger failed ? You often need the trigger to seat a cam safely.

In reply to David Coley:

Hi David,

I've had a think about your question so here's my thoughts. (Like I said I'm no lawyer)

If you're supplying components and instructions you're recommending making modifications then I reckon you're almost certainly responsible for the safety of the components and method. More worryingly you'll also be responsible for the safety warnings, Ie if some muppet coats the sling in WD40 and you didn't explicitly state not to you could be in trouble?

The other thing is if a cam fails and the manufacturer finds out it had a modification fitted by another 'company' I'd imagine they won't touch it with a barge pole regardless of whether they were at fault.

Just my thoughts on it.

In reply to GrahamD:

Ah, good point.

In reply to David Coley:
Some of these replies are completely ridiculous.

You don't sue a person on ebay selling iphone screens because you buy one and then brick your phone trying to repair it yourself.

You don't sue someone leasing power tools if you f*ck up and drill through a water main.

You wouldn't sue a kid selling trigger wires for cams (a non load bearing piece of equipment - it's not like the kid is re-slinging them) because you failed to put a trigger together correctly.

Just have a look at some of the iphone screen replacement kit disclaimers and draw up a little warning along the same lines saying that she takes no responsibility for failed repairs (assuming her kit is not the cause) and any repairs/modifications to the trigger system are solely undertaken at the risk of the buyer.

Tell her to go for it I reckon!

In reply to Removed User:


*You* don't, *I* don't. Some people do. Not all that many people, thankfully, and hopefully they're underrepresented in the climbing community but I think David's still right to at least pause to consider it. I think most people here agree that any legal action would likely be unsuccessful but that doesn't mean it would be resolved without stress and hassle. Even an angry customer who doesn't get as far as taking any legal steps could be pretty aggravating to all involved.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


"Note. She is not offering a repair service, just the bits and instructions."

In reply to slab_happy:
Surely you need the trigger wires to enable you to place the cam correctly too, perhaps pull it out, put a bigger / smaller one in the same place, or using the same one pull it out and place it higher / lower ...
Also, what if it's not secure, but you want to remove it but can't as the repaired trigger wire became faulty, + although you can't get the cam out, it's a bit loose, but now stopping you get a better piece in the only available place for another 15 ft up / back down the climb?

In reply to David Coley:

I would doubt very much that there is even pocket money to be made in selling cam repair wires.

I worked in a climbing shop for a few years and only got asked for repair kits a couple of times. Unless you know a ready market or have worked out a great advertising strategy it might take a long time to recoup the outlay on materials.

Now something like homemade energy bars/flapjacks marketed to local sports and cycling clubs.......

In reply to Rock to Fakey:


I don't think that necessarily settles the matter. In Europe people have been sued for inadequate instructions on rubber keepers for adding to quickdraws.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/coaching-instructing-and-the-law

I also don't think the question is would the injured party sue in those circumstances. If the injured party has insurance and they make a claim the policy will allow the insurance company to sue if there is a case someone else is liable to try and recover their payout.

In reply to David Coley:

>One of my children is thinking of adding to her pocket money by selling cam trigger wire repair kits.

Just give her a bit more pocket money you tight bast@#d!

Or maybe she could play it safe and offer to re-sling cams instead. Does she have a sewing machine?

Disclaimer: Legally speaking, I am not a lawyer.

In reply to DancingOnRock:




This is the most sensible response, and kind of negates most of the other posting, if, as I suspect, nobody has ever sued for broken wires on a cam.