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Trad climbing guru's please help... and bare with me, im new to trad.
I understand the theory of trad climbing and I recognise that these areas ive skipped over are massive areas of discussion in themselves, nonetheless;
Lead route placing gear whilst climbing
Construct anchor at the top with gear
Belay up your second
Second cleans route, taking out gear
Both climbers celebrate on their success!
Here's my question if there is no other way of getting down other than back down the climb, how do both climbers get back down with all gear?
One climber gets belayed back down, with anchor and belayer at top
How does the climber at top, clean the anchor and get back down? Much like cleaning a sport anchor, threading rope through the chains.
I may just be being silly here but any advice would be greatly appreciated
I understand the theory of trad climbing and I recognise that these areas ive skipped over are massive areas of discussion in themselves, nonetheless;
Lead route placing gear whilst climbing
Construct anchor at the top with gear
Belay up your second
Second cleans route, taking out gear
Both climbers celebrate on their success!
Here's my question if there is no other way of getting down other than back down the climb, how do both climbers get back down with all gear?
One climber gets belayed back down, with anchor and belayer at top
How does the climber at top, clean the anchor and get back down? Much like cleaning a sport anchor, threading rope through the chains.
I may just be being silly here but any advice would be greatly appreciated
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In reply to Tim saville:
When you're cragging, there's always a way to walk down.
The only reason getting down is difficult is if you do big mountain routes. Generally in the UK there'll still be a walk down, but guidebooks will usually specify the way to walk back down.
If a route involves abseiling back down you'll know about it beforehand.
When you're cragging, there's always a way to walk down.
The only reason getting down is difficult is if you do big mountain routes. Generally in the UK there'll still be a walk down, but guidebooks will usually specify the way to walk back down.
If a route involves abseiling back down you'll know about it beforehand.
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In reply to Tim saville:
The route is cleaned by the second.
If you *had* to abseil down, you'd have to abandon gear unless there was a piece of rock shaped perfectly for putting the rope round, or someone had put an abseil stake in.
The route is cleaned by the second.
If you *had* to abseil down, you'd have to abandon gear unless there was a piece of rock shaped perfectly for putting the rope round, or someone had put an abseil stake in.
Post edited at 14:54
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In reply to Neil Williams:
Right okay, thanks for answer, realise I guess its a bit of a silly question so wasn't sure if there was some magical solution to problem
Right okay, thanks for answer, realise I guess its a bit of a silly question so wasn't sure if there was some magical solution to problem
Post edited at 14:58
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In reply to Tim saville:
There's also the fairly regular big tree at the top that's suitable for the ab, or ab tat which is prevalent on big routes in the UK.
There's also the fairly regular big tree at the top that's suitable for the ab, or ab tat which is prevalent on big routes in the UK.
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In reply to Tim saville:
Don't worry-it was a perfectly sensible question and well asked. We all had to learn these things somewhere
Don't worry-it was a perfectly sensible question and well asked. We all had to learn these things somewhere
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In reply to Tim saville:
How we all wish there was
> so wasn't sure if there was some magical solution to problem
How we all wish there was
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In reply to Tim saville:
It is possible to "down-lead", which is essentially the leading process reversed - one person climbs down while being top rope belayed from above, putting gear in and clipping the rope in to it as they go, and then they belay the other person down on a sort-of reverse lead to get the gear out.
This is pretty rare in my experience - it occasionally needs doing to get down off a pinnacle or on a difficult downclimb on a scrambly ridge traverse, but you wouldn't do it if there was another option. It's can be a bit nervy, because the second person down is looking at the potential to take whippers onto gear that they didn't place themself. I've only ever done it on things that I'd almost but not quite solo.
As other people have said, though, there's almost always either a walk off, a scramble down, or something that's usable as an abseil anchor.
It is possible to "down-lead", which is essentially the leading process reversed - one person climbs down while being top rope belayed from above, putting gear in and clipping the rope in to it as they go, and then they belay the other person down on a sort-of reverse lead to get the gear out.
This is pretty rare in my experience - it occasionally needs doing to get down off a pinnacle or on a difficult downclimb on a scrambly ridge traverse, but you wouldn't do it if there was another option. It's can be a bit nervy, because the second person down is looking at the potential to take whippers onto gear that they didn't place themself. I've only ever done it on things that I'd almost but not quite solo.
As other people have said, though, there's almost always either a walk off, a scramble down, or something that's usable as an abseil anchor.
Post edited at 15:43
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In reply to Tim saville:
Sometimes the way down can be quite tricky – much more than a walk – e.g. moderate rock-climbing, but that's all part of the fun/sport. I always regarded a climb as a kind of 'round trip', starting and finishing at the sacks at the bottom.
Sometimes the way down can be quite tricky – much more than a walk – e.g. moderate rock-climbing, but that's all part of the fun/sport. I always regarded a climb as a kind of 'round trip', starting and finishing at the sacks at the bottom.
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In reply to Ramblin dave:
Okay yeah that makes sense, so this technique would be used on sea stacks ect?
Okay yeah that makes sense, so this technique would be used on sea stacks ect?
In reply to MischaHY:
this^
Some single pitch crags (Shorn Cliff in the Wye Valley is a good example) are descended by abbing, not walking around the back. As Mischa said there's usually a tree or some ab tat (sling, cord, or both with a krab or maillon). Obviously you thread the rope through the maillon. However, it's up to you to make a judgement on the condition of the tat and whether you're happy to trust your life to it, or prefer to sacrifice a sling/krab of your own.
The leader can lower the second to the ground, or the second can top out and both can then ab off.
Are you comfortable setting up an abseil?
> There's also the fairly regular big tree at the top that's suitable for the ab, or ab tat which is prevalent on big routes in the UK.
this^
Some single pitch crags (Shorn Cliff in the Wye Valley is a good example) are descended by abbing, not walking around the back. As Mischa said there's usually a tree or some ab tat (sling, cord, or both with a krab or maillon). Obviously you thread the rope through the maillon. However, it's up to you to make a judgement on the condition of the tat and whether you're happy to trust your life to it, or prefer to sacrifice a sling/krab of your own.
The leader can lower the second to the ground, or the second can top out and both can then ab off.
Are you comfortable setting up an abseil?
Post edited at 15:44
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In reply to Tim saville:
You may find the following article describing the tricky descent from Napes Needle interesting, it gives an insight into the type of thing you may have to consider descending from pinnacles
http://www.needlesports.com/content/how-to-get-down-off-napes-needle.aspx
By the way, a lot of climbers carry some old but serviceable gear that they wouldn't mind abandoning if necessary; possibly an old krab or two and some cord; like a lot of people I carry my chalkbag on a length of cord suitable for abbing off.
You may find the following article describing the tricky descent from Napes Needle interesting, it gives an insight into the type of thing you may have to consider descending from pinnacles
http://www.needlesports.com/content/how-to-get-down-off-napes-needle.aspx
By the way, a lot of climbers carry some old but serviceable gear that they wouldn't mind abandoning if necessary; possibly an old krab or two and some cord; like a lot of people I carry my chalkbag on a length of cord suitable for abbing off.
Post edited at 15:53
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
And occasionally way scarier than the climb.
> Sometimes the way down can be quite tricky – much more than a walk
And occasionally way scarier than the climb.
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In reply to ripper:
Note that a tree has to have a piece of tat round it and/or you add your own, because putting the ab rope directly round the tree is considered unacceptable practice. Because, if it's a smallish tree, retrieval of the rope will in time cut the bark and the tree will die.
Note that a tree has to have a piece of tat round it and/or you add your own, because putting the ab rope directly round the tree is considered unacceptable practice. Because, if it's a smallish tree, retrieval of the rope will in time cut the bark and the tree will die.
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In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Thanks Gordon, you're quite correct of course
> Note that a tree has to have a piece of tat round it and/or you add your own, because putting the ab rope directly round the tree is considered unacceptable practice. Because, if it's a smallish tree, retrieval of the rope will in time cut the bark and the tree will die.
Thanks Gordon, you're quite correct of course
In reply to Tim saville:
Hi,
As per most responses so far, once the leader has climbed to the top of the route, and in this instance I am assuming the route is single pitch, the second will follow and clean intermediate belays (runners). Most crags will have a walking/scrambling walk off once the top belay is disassembled. Some crags may be set up for abseiling off, and in some cases this will be the only/ best option. The guide book would usually give you decent details. As a rule of thumb, wall off where you can, generally it's safer than abseiling. If you need to abseil off the route, you want your abseil to be retrievable
Hi,
As per most responses so far, once the leader has climbed to the top of the route, and in this instance I am assuming the route is single pitch, the second will follow and clean intermediate belays (runners). Most crags will have a walking/scrambling walk off once the top belay is disassembled. Some crags may be set up for abseiling off, and in some cases this will be the only/ best option. The guide book would usually give you decent details. As a rule of thumb, wall off where you can, generally it's safer than abseiling. If you need to abseil off the route, you want your abseil to be retrievable
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In reply to Ramblin dave:
Yes, I've done this to get off the Leaning Block at Higgar Tor (I'm sure plenty of people solo off down the VDiff without batting an eyelid, but we were all feeling a bit broken and emotionally fragile after The File).
But that's a very rare thing to do. The answer to "how do you get down" is generally "walk" (sometimes with scrambly bits) or "abseil off the convenient abseil point" (whether that's a natural feature or a stake or ring that kindly people have placed there).
There's not an equivalent to threading the anchors on a sport route which you need to learn and then do all the time.
Yes, I've done this to get off the Leaning Block at Higgar Tor (I'm sure plenty of people solo off down the VDiff without batting an eyelid, but we were all feeling a bit broken and emotionally fragile after The File).
But that's a very rare thing to do. The answer to "how do you get down" is generally "walk" (sometimes with scrambly bits) or "abseil off the convenient abseil point" (whether that's a natural feature or a stake or ring that kindly people have placed there).
There's not an equivalent to threading the anchors on a sport route which you need to learn and then do all the time.
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In reply to Tim saville:
Lots of good advice here. One thing I would add if you are really new is to take care if descending on damp grass or wet muddy ish paths in rockboots. They can be more treacherous than your first leads.
Don't over worry about it but just be aware and have fun
Lots of good advice here. One thing I would add if you are really new is to take care if descending on damp grass or wet muddy ish paths in rockboots. They can be more treacherous than your first leads.
Don't over worry about it but just be aware and have fun
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In reply to aostaman:
It's worth adding that one of the dangers of descents is that people relax/lose a bit of concentration after the intense adrenaline rush of a climb. There have been quite a number of tragic accidents like that, with very good climbers slipping off relatively easy ground at the top of a climb. Sticky boots ain't so sticky on wet grass.
> Lots of good advice here. One thing I would add if you are really new is to take care if descending on damp grass or wet muddy ish paths in rockboots. They can be more treacherous than your first leads. Don't over worry about it but just be aware and have fun
It's worth adding that one of the dangers of descents is that people relax/lose a bit of concentration after the intense adrenaline rush of a climb. There have been quite a number of tragic accidents like that, with very good climbers slipping off relatively easy ground at the top of a climb. Sticky boots ain't so sticky on wet grass.
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In reply to aostaman:
If this is likely then I usually take my approach shoes attached to the back of my harness.
> One thing I would add if you are really new is to take care if descending on damp grass or wet muddy ish paths in rockboots.
If this is likely then I usually take my approach shoes attached to the back of my harness.
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In reply to Tim saville:
Descent routes are usually described in the guidebook. Read it before setting off. Descents could be pretty obvious on single pitch crags but fairly complicated on multipitch mountain routes.
Descent routes are usually described in the guidebook. Read it before setting off. Descents could be pretty obvious on single pitch crags but fairly complicated on multipitch mountain routes.
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In reply to slab_happy:
I know! That's why I said "this is pretty rare in my experience... you wouldn't do it if there was another option... there's almost always either a walk off, a scramble down, or something that's usable as an abseil anchor"!
> But that's a very rare thing to do. The answer to "how do you get down" is generally "walk" (sometimes with scrambly bits) or "abseil off the convenient abseil point" (whether that's a natural feature or a stake or ring that kindly people have placed there).
I know! That's why I said "this is pretty rare in my experience... you wouldn't do it if there was another option... there's almost always either a walk off, a scramble down, or something that's usable as an abseil anchor"!
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In reply to Ramblin dave:
I know you know! *g* That bit was directed at the OP -- sorry if that wasn't clear.
I know you know! *g* That bit was directed at the OP -- sorry if that wasn't clear.
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In reply to slab_happy:
There's an easy down climb off the RH side of the Higger Tor block - it must be easy, I managed it
There's an easy down climb off the RH side of the Higger Tor block - it must be easy, I managed it
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In reply to SiGregory:
I've heard mention of this -- either we didn't find it or that's what we down-lead ...
In my defence, I was feeling especially pathetic at the time.
I've heard mention of this -- either we didn't find it or that's what we down-lead ...
In my defence, I was feeling especially pathetic at the time.
In reply to Tim saville:
If you're abseiling back down to clean the route, like if your second couldn't complete it, or if they got some gear stuck and the leader wanted to try to get it out, then you'd set up an anchor at the top and abseil from it. Make sure you've got a prussic (as you always should) to hold you so you're hands free trying to get the gear out. Then you'd walk back up to the top to retrieve your anchor. That's for a normal cragging situation, like at Stanage or the vast majority of single pitch crags.
When you get into multipitch, or things you have to abseil into (like sea cliffs) things get a bit more complex, these are what people would generally refer to as more 'committing' climbs. Before you start out on this type of climbing, you might want to learn how to rescue yourself / your second if you get stuck, and also be prepared to leave some gear behind if it won't come out.
When starting out in trad, it's best to build up slowly, as I'm sure you would, and start out with things that don't require abseiling. It makes everything a whole lot easier and safer. Once you're more comfortable you can up the commitment level, but there's tonnes of great climbing to be done without much commitment, so don't rush.
> Okay but how would you abseiling back down and clean route?
If you're abseiling back down to clean the route, like if your second couldn't complete it, or if they got some gear stuck and the leader wanted to try to get it out, then you'd set up an anchor at the top and abseil from it. Make sure you've got a prussic (as you always should) to hold you so you're hands free trying to get the gear out. Then you'd walk back up to the top to retrieve your anchor. That's for a normal cragging situation, like at Stanage or the vast majority of single pitch crags.
When you get into multipitch, or things you have to abseil into (like sea cliffs) things get a bit more complex, these are what people would generally refer to as more 'committing' climbs. Before you start out on this type of climbing, you might want to learn how to rescue yourself / your second if you get stuck, and also be prepared to leave some gear behind if it won't come out.
When starting out in trad, it's best to build up slowly, as I'm sure you would, and start out with things that don't require abseiling. It makes everything a whole lot easier and safer. Once you're more comfortable you can up the commitment level, but there's tonnes of great climbing to be done without much commitment, so don't rush.
In reply to RyanOsborne:
Shorn Cliff
One of the most popular crags in my area.
> When you're cragging, there's always a way to walk down.
Shorn Cliff
One of the most popular crags in my area.
In reply to bpmclimb:
Yeah, fair enough, there are a handful of crags. Some places in Avon Gorge too, and the odd pinnacle here and there, but they're very much the exception, and not helpful in explaining the context of the sequence of trad in 99.9% of crags attended by a beginner. I think I've abbed off the top of maybe 1 single pitch route in 5 years of climbing.
Yeah, fair enough, there are a handful of crags. Some places in Avon Gorge too, and the odd pinnacle here and there, but they're very much the exception, and not helpful in explaining the context of the sequence of trad in 99.9% of crags attended by a beginner. I think I've abbed off the top of maybe 1 single pitch route in 5 years of climbing.
In reply to Tim saville:
You've had lots of good answers, and as people say, normally you just walk off.
When you do get into abseiling and more adventurous routes, it is very easy for the ab rope to get stuck. Either the anchor you have used just has too much friction, or the rope moves during the abseil and jams somewhere.
There are various things you can do to minimise this; test that the rope runs before you start, if you have knotted two ropes together, move the knot away from initial obstructions and use a suitable small knot (and have a different colour rope to your mate). On a single pitch abseil, getting the rope stuck is a pain, but on a multiple abseil it can be a big problem.
You've had lots of good answers, and as people say, normally you just walk off.
When you do get into abseiling and more adventurous routes, it is very easy for the ab rope to get stuck. Either the anchor you have used just has too much friction, or the rope moves during the abseil and jams somewhere.
There are various things you can do to minimise this; test that the rope runs before you start, if you have knotted two ropes together, move the knot away from initial obstructions and use a suitable small knot (and have a different colour rope to your mate). On a single pitch abseil, getting the rope stuck is a pain, but on a multiple abseil it can be a big problem.
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In reply to Tim saville:
I see nobody's mentioned descending a stack or pinnacle by heh, heh, simultaneous abseiling down opposite sides. Saves leaving gear...
I see nobody's mentioned descending a stack or pinnacle by heh, heh, simultaneous abseiling down opposite sides. Saves leaving gear...
In reply to Andy Long:
Is this really a thing?
> I see nobody's mentioned descending a stack or pinnacle by heh, heh, simultaneous abseiling down opposite sides. Saves leaving gear...
Is this really a thing?
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In reply to slab_happy:
Being able to competently use gear and ropes to get yourself down something you don't wish to solo is not remotely pathetic.
> I've heard mention of this -- either we didn't find it or that's what we down-lead ...In my defence, I was feeling especially pathetic at the time.
Being able to competently use gear and ropes to get yourself down something you don't wish to solo is not remotely pathetic.
In reply to broken spectre:
It indeed is, yes. Being much heavier than most other people I climb with I doubt I'd ever use it, though.
It indeed is, yes. Being much heavier than most other people I climb with I doubt I'd ever use it, though.
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In reply to Neil Williams:
A good reason for climbing in a three
> Being much heavier than most other people I climb with I doubt I'd ever use it, though.
A good reason for climbing in a three
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In reply to Andy Long:
I once did something like this but we decided to lower the heavier person to the ground first and then use them as an anchor for abseiling off the back. It seemed a bit less precarious than both trying to lean back at the same time and abseil simultaneously.
I once did something like this but we decided to lower the heavier person to the ground first and then use them as an anchor for abseiling off the back. It seemed a bit less precarious than both trying to lean back at the same time and abseil simultaneously.
In reply to slab_happy:
I suspect the easy down-climb off the Higgar block is only easy if you climb up it first - it's tricky to see the holds and read the moves (there are only a couple) from above.
You definitely get an extra little bit of adventure out of an ascent of the File if you don't recce how you'll be getting off the block first.
I suspect the easy down-climb off the Higgar block is only easy if you climb up it first - it's tricky to see the holds and read the moves (there are only a couple) from above.
You definitely get an extra little bit of adventure out of an ascent of the File if you don't recce how you'll be getting off the block first.
In reply to aostaman:
"One thing I would add if you are really new is to take care if descending on damp grass or wet muddy ish paths in rockboots".
The above is very good advice. I had my first and only serious 'rock climbing' accident in Borrowdale aged 15 whilst walking down a descent path back to the carpark after a great day of climbing. I was wearing trainers. Apparently (I have no memory of the event) I slipped in wet grass and summersaulted over a number of boulders. Mountain rescue scraped me up. Woke up in hospital a couple of days later with concussion and around 60 stiches in my head. Very lucky for me. Not so lucky for the climbing club who had taken a young kid out climbing. It must have been traumatic for them.
"One thing I would add if you are really new is to take care if descending on damp grass or wet muddy ish paths in rockboots".
The above is very good advice. I had my first and only serious 'rock climbing' accident in Borrowdale aged 15 whilst walking down a descent path back to the carpark after a great day of climbing. I was wearing trainers. Apparently (I have no memory of the event) I slipped in wet grass and summersaulted over a number of boulders. Mountain rescue scraped me up. Woke up in hospital a couple of days later with concussion and around 60 stiches in my head. Very lucky for me. Not so lucky for the climbing club who had taken a young kid out climbing. It must have been traumatic for them.
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In reply to Tim saville:
It's a very good question, generally as a beginner you should know how you are getting down before you start the route, usually because the guide book tells you (walk off or abseil point)!
It's a very good question, generally as a beginner you should know how you are getting down before you start the route, usually because the guide book tells you (walk off or abseil point)!
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In reply to Hat Dude:
Actually, you probably could do a 3-way simul-abseil with me on one side and my 2 most likely climbing partners on the other - I think that actually would more or less add up.
Actually, you probably could do a 3-way simul-abseil with me on one side and my 2 most likely climbing partners on the other - I think that actually would more or less add up.
In reply to Neil Williams:
I can't see that this would make much difference with a cantilevered simultaneous abseil, unless you actually weight 2 or 3 times the weight of your partner. Still, not much call for it.
> It indeed is, yes. Being much heavier than most other people I climb with I doubt I'd ever use it, though.
I can't see that this would make much difference with a cantilevered simultaneous abseil, unless you actually weight 2 or 3 times the weight of your partner. Still, not much call for it.
In reply to Tom Last:
Not far off twice with one of them. But yes, I guess there's a lot of friction - even through one krab at a climbing wall you tend to balance for top-rope belaying at about 2/3 of their weight.
> I can't see that this would make much difference with a cantilevered simultaneous abseil, unless you actually weight 2 or 3 times the weight of your partner.
Not far off twice with one of them. But yes, I guess there's a lot of friction - even through one krab at a climbing wall you tend to balance for top-rope belaying at about 2/3 of their weight.
In reply to Neil Williams:
Exactly, the friction will be massive, especially compared to that of the rope running through a top rope krab in a climbing wall situation. After all, simultaneous abseils tend not to involve carabiners since if one were present there'd be no need for the simultaneous aspect; I hope this doesn't sound facetious, it's not meant to! With the rope running for example across a summit of and down either side of a sea stack or something I'd have thought the friction would be massive and certainly enough to offset even quite significant differences in the relative weights of the party. Less so if the rope is running over a narrow rocky ridge/block/whatever I guess but still I can't see it being a problem - then again I'm coming from a background of vague recollections of physics lessons 20 years back so I'm hardly an authority on the subject!
Exactly, the friction will be massive, especially compared to that of the rope running through a top rope krab in a climbing wall situation. After all, simultaneous abseils tend not to involve carabiners since if one were present there'd be no need for the simultaneous aspect; I hope this doesn't sound facetious, it's not meant to! With the rope running for example across a summit of and down either side of a sea stack or something I'd have thought the friction would be massive and certainly enough to offset even quite significant differences in the relative weights of the party. Less so if the rope is running over a narrow rocky ridge/block/whatever I guess but still I can't see it being a problem - then again I'm coming from a background of vague recollections of physics lessons 20 years back so I'm hardly an authority on the subject!
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