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How to open a climbing gym

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 russtyg 04 May 2017
Has this been discussed before? Couldn't find using a forum search so here goes.

I'm interested in starting my own business, a climbing gym. In Estonia.

There are no hills or mountains here but there is a climbing community that make use of a small wall in a sports hall and a small bouldering gym.

I intend to carry out business concept validation and market research myself before considering starting the business. I see room for a dedicated climbing gym with higher walls in Tallinn.

My question is, does anyone have experience in opening a new climbing wall? I am particularly interested in any failures or success stories. Thanks!
 stp 05 May 2017
In reply to russtyg:

No experience myself but I live a short distance from The Climbing Works which is one of the most successful walls in the country. As someone who climbs there regularly it's not hard to see some of the reasons why.

The three people that set it up were very experienced climbers that had been climbing a long time and two of whom climbed at a very high standard, I think all had experience in route-setting professionally. I think it's typical of many successful walls is that they are set up and run by people who are completely fanatical about climbing.

They were setting up in Sheffield, a city with a lot of climbers but also already had two very successful walls already. Their idea was totally original (at the time). It was to set up wall that was exclusively for bouldering, and it was the biggest bouldering wall in the country (maybe the world?).

The location was seen as extremely important. It took years (maybe 5?) to find the right building in the right location. The location was the part of the city where a large segment of the climbing community already lived. This seemed like a very smart move. I go there more often than I otherwise might, in part because it's just 5 minutes away by bike.

Attractiveness: The Works is a nice place to be. It has a lot of natural daylight, comfy sofas and is kept clean. The wall is attractive with interesting and varied shapes that make you want to climb them.

Bouldering not lead climbing. Bouldering walls have several advantages. The fact you don't need a partner is huge. With lead wall if you don't have a partner you cannot go. For some people this is hugely limiting so such people will simply not climb as often, possibly anywhere near as often. Bouldering walls don't need such a big building, so easier to find somewhere and much less initial investment is required. Less red tape stuff to do with safety too.

Route-setting. You can have the best most modern wall in the world but if the route-setting is shite the wall will be shite. This is something I think many walls get wrong and the Climbing Works really excels at. They have their own style of very technical bouldering that's not just about strength. They have circuits that are good for the best climbers in the world but equally circuits suitable for total beginners and children, and plenty for the intermediate climber. The place has always been child friendly, but since opening they added the Mini-Works, a purpose built separate area specifically for younger climbers. The circuits are re-set on a regular basis with cleaned holds. The sets of holds they use are good quality too, interesting shapes etc.

Training area: They have a small but useful training area, with campus board, finger boards, pull bars, kettlebells, wall bars, rings and the Beastmaker steep wood systems board for serious training.

Client base. Although any wall has to be attractive to local climbers the successful ones also seem to create more customers by attracting non climbers to climb too. Some of these go on to become keen climbers also, and thus regular customers.

Community. Although it's privately owned run the Works clearly sees itself as a part of climbing community, not just something that serves and profits from it. They give back to the community. They have a free Xmas party each year. They host regular events but other people, like film shows, yoga classes, physio sessions. Parts of the wall get changed and rebuilt maybe once a year. They host the annual CWIF, their own international competition, that has grown into something resembling a World Cup event attracting top names from all over the world. It's the certainly the most important regular competition in the country now. Entry is free.

Good luck and I hope that helps.
 alx 05 May 2017
In reply to stp:

I didn't realise you were a regular at the Works, albeit I climb usually very late (8-10pm) most evenings so tend to miss most people!


Stp is pretty much bang on the money, once you have saturated the current available climbing market in your local area you need to innovate through good training space and excellent route setting.

The problem with the Works is their training zone which is small and near useless in peak hours due to the amount of people using the rings and campus board area as a lounge. This being said on speaking with Sam a few days back there are some exciting new things coming through regarding changing this. There is talk of a new less steep motherboard, which should bridge the grade gap up to the current version , a campus system board and more space by taking the large boxed off kids castle out and adapting the current corridor area a bit. Sounds ideal!

I love the Works for the setting which is first rate, whilst I had gripes about there not being a decent 7A-7C circuit last summer they have introduced the new orange circuit to cover this, made the red hard circuit better (albeit hopefully they will bin the poor quality Flatholds) and introduced a new wood circuit ~7A (except the skip problem which feels a lot harder..) They also have probably the best low end circuit setting around, none of this hoop ladders which ill prepare you for th next circuits up, it feels as much thought and consideration goes into these problems as does the top end stuff. From Font grade 4 up to 8 they have a lot of excellent problems.


In reply to russtyg:

What STP and ALX said.
In addition, Sheffield is home to the Foundry, which apart from being the first wall in the modern idiom, manages to combine a brilliant bouldering wall with a brilliant lead wall. The common denominator with the Climbing Works is the excellence of the route setting. Other examples would be anywhere Ian Vickers route sets, like the Boardroom over near Queensferry.
So, to the OP, a bright, airy space in an area where climbers live, and find some exceptional route setters.
In reply to russtyg:
My guess is there is more money in bouldering than in roped climbing. Maybe bouldering and a few autobelays like the Depot.

The ratio of number of customers that paid to get in to size of the facility seems much better with bouldering. There's also far more buildings suitable for bouldering so its easier to find one in a location that is convenient for your target customers. I think roped climbing is inherently less intensive in the use of space because people tie up a line for far longer per climb because of all the faff with the ropes. Also with roped climbing you need to organise a partner and bring a bunch of kit, bouldering is a lot less hassle as a several times a week after work activity.
Post edited at 16:17
 nniff 05 May 2017
In reply to russtyg:

There is one other financial dynamic to consider which favours bouldering walls - number of paying customers per square metre of wall. A line in a lead wall will accomodate one person climbing and one belaying. For sake of argument, say it's one metre wide by ten metres tall. The higher it gets, the more it costs, but still only two people. Bring it down to five metres and you've got a patch two metres by five, which will also accommodate two people climbing. However, they don't sit on the rope if they fail - someone else - another paying customer - has a go and so the number of paying customers per square metre goes up.

 Neil Williams 05 May 2017
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
Big Rock are proposing to open a second wall in MK - this is not massively surprising because I've long thought there was space for a second centre in MK as they are so busy (to the extent that people are getting put off), and by getting in there first themselves they are protecting their business by making sure there isn't space for another operator to come in instead. It's also good for me because they've said memberships will be valid at both, and it's a bit nearer me too so popping in for a quick boulder will be easier.

However, the big surprise for me is that it, like their existing centre, will be bouldering, top-rope and lead. I had expected a dedicated bouldering centre.
Post edited at 17:40
 Oogachooga 05 May 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

Off topic but I cannot help commenting...amazing how packed bouldering walls can get but my local crag is absolutely DEAD evenings and weekends. 10 minutes out of Cheltenham, 30 minutes out of Gloucester. Figure that.

Indoor bouldering is where the money is by the look of things good luck!
 JIMBO 05 May 2017
In reply to nniff:

Climbers per square metre is a good point... also bouldering is easier to build a new climbing community since it requires less training to establish a beginner as a regular customer.
 Morty 05 May 2017
In reply to russtyg:

Dave Douglas is a nice fella who has a lot of experience of this. He posts on here. See if you can message him and ask for advice. I'm sure the BMC could offer advice to start up businesses in relation to demand in geographical areas - do you have an equivalent? I'd email the owners of successful climbing gyms and ask them if they wouldn't mind having a chat.
 stp 05 May 2017
In reply to alx:

Ah well we'll definitely miss each other I'm afraid. I usually go at the other end of opening hours, around midday or early pm, in part to miss the busy periods.

The Works is definitely victim of it's own success. A bigger training area would definitely be good I'm sure, though ultimately bigger premises, though they're unlikely to find anything in the same area. The Depot seems much more able to cope with large influx of people in the evenings.
 Y Gribin 05 May 2017
In reply to Oogachooga:

> ....my local crag is absolutely DEAD evenings and weekends. 10 minutes out of Cheltenham, 30 minutes out of Gloucester....

If that's Cleeve then I could tell you why it's dead
 SenzuBean 05 May 2017
In reply to russtyg:

One thing which is probably rather obvious - but you can tailor your 'retention rate' with your route setting. I've been to bouldering walls where there are a few ladder routes (5 maybe), and then a big grade jump to where a total novice who's overweight doesn't stand much chance - straight away routes requiring proper hand sequences, a few foot swaps, overhanging and flagging. This wall seems to have very few of the people coming to taste climbing stay - which is actually okay, since the wall is more or less at capacity anyway.
Other walls have actually provided a progression for a hypothetical overweight novice - there's the extremely kind jug ladder grade, then the kind jug ladder grade, then the standard jug ladder grade. This sense of progressing, rather than just feeling like "I'll never do this!" brings those customers back. Not many people like to feel like they're the utter worst at the wall, doomed to climb forever on the "boring, baby routes".
So if your market research indicates there aren't enough proper climbers to sustain the wall, you'll want to think about a nice 'punter on-ramp'.
 Oceanrower 05 May 2017
In reply to SenzuBean:

> So if your market research indicates there aren't enough proper climbers to sustain the wall, you'll want to think about a nice 'punter on-ramp'.

I would be absolutely amazed if there were enough "proper" climbers to sustain ANY commercial wall.

Without the 'punters' I wouldn't think any of them would be able to survive.
 Misha 05 May 2017
In reply to Oceanrower:

Kids' birthday parties and clubs are really important as far as I can tell. At least in 'non-climbing' areas like the Midlands where there aren't that many regular climbers. Sheffield is probably different.

Consider also the competitive advantage of being first on the scene. You don't even have to have an amazing wall with great route setting to start with because there are no other options, so an ok wall with ok route setting would do. Even with several competing walls here in Birmingham, it's very rare for them to pay for professional route setters yet people still go to them. Again, Sheffield is different.

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