UKC

I'm currently bored at home and sick of perusing the Chamonix Rockfax, so I've decided to do something productive and reexamine my system for roping up on glaciers. I currently use a clove hitch on a screwgate to redirect the force of a potential fall onto my harness, and so if matey on the other end falls into something it's a case of construct an anchor, get the load onto it using a Micro Traxion, and then set up for hauling if necessary. I've also seen people use a prusik in place of the clove hitch, with the theory being they can just clip it to the anchor and it's one less thing to do. Or, I suppose, one less thing to do if you fall in and intend on prusiking out.

Has anyone tried using a Micro Traxion in place of the clove hitch or prusik? Do people feel there's anything to be gained from it (let's face it, the time-consuming part isn't sticking a prusik or Micro Traxion on the rope)? Does anyone think there'd be a problem with sheath damage in the event of a fall?

I'm genuinely interested to both hear opinions, and also hear how others generally do it to see if I can tweak my system and make it a bit more efficient.

In reply to tehmarks:

If I understand you correctly, your aim is to make the micro traxion the sole point of connection to the rope. If so, then this is likely to earn you a darwin award. Likewise, using only a prussic to attach to the rope. If you want to do something like this, you can use an auto blocking belay device like the grigri etc. which also allows you to lower the climber to a snow bridge, haul like a micro traxion and lengthen and shorten the rope easily.

In reply to beardy mike:
I think you misunderstand - I'd be tied in to the end, have coils tied off as normal, and then attach the Micro Traxion with a bi of slack between it and the tied-off coils, so the pull from any fall is low on my harness and not on the chest. Apologies for not describing in more detail but I thought it'd be obvious because, well, how many people out there don't secure the rope to their harness somehow after they've tied off their coils?

In reply to tehmarks:
Ah OK - so what your are proposing is to isolate the microtraxion between the tie off on your harness and coils around your chest, i.e. not loading it at all... if that's the case then fine. But still have a think about a belay device as a form of running knot - all you do is tie off the rope behind the grigri / assisted belay device as a back up and a way of tieing off the coils around your chest and you're done... if speed is really what is bothering you! You'll be ready to ascend using the "frog" method...

http://www.climbing.com/skills/tech-tip-alpine-the-soft-knot-method-2/

In reply to beardy mike:

No, third time lucky: tie-in-coils-Micro Traxion-partner. Just like tie-in-coils-clove hitch-partner. So that in the event of a fall, the load comes onto the harness rather than the chest coils.

I'm not overly perturbed about speed - like I said faffing around trying to build an anchor will take a lot longer than plonking a Micro Traxion on the rope. Being efficient is a good feeling though. The reason I'm specifically considering the Micro Traxion and haven't even thought about a GriGri is that I always have the Micro Traxion with me anyway, for the hauling part in conjunction with a Revolver and a prusik. The GriGri is bigger, heavier and something I almost certainly wouldn't have with me otherwise (ok ok, I'll probably have a Reverso or similar, so that's not an entirely valid argument).

I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with having it on the rope already as I've seen it taught by one person, and the equivalent with a prusik is reasonably common practice.

In reply to tehmarks:

When your transferring the load of your partner off of your harness on to the anchor, your still going to have to clip them to the anchor with something, you cant just unclip it from your harness and clip it on to the anchor, you'd have to put the weight off of you and on to the anchor before you unclip the micro traxion from your harness. To me it seems to be adding extra steps and extra complication for no benefit

In reply to climber david:
To my knowledge the pre-praced prusik (or microtraxion) from harness to live rope is not bearing any weight when you are crossing the glacier. It's only role is to help you escape the system faster if your mate falls in a crevasse. Instead of having to faff around finding prusik, krab etc you can simply clip your pre-placed prusik into the sling from an ice axe/screw anchor.

Edit: the load from any crevasse fall should come onto your chest coils. This is preferable than the load coming onto your harness - as you are suggesting above. I believe this is because climbers wearing heavy sacks are at risk of inverting in a fall.

In reply to climber david:

This is the conclusion that I came to last night. I figured I could have the Micro Traxion on a short knotted sling, or clipped via two screwgates to make it a case of clipping it to the anchor and then easing the load onto the anchor, but to be honest it seemed to gain so little and potentially cause so much more faff that I think I'll stick to what I do now!

In reply to maxsmith:


Are you sure? I was under the impression it should go onto your harness as if your mate fall into a crevasse, if the load if applied to your coils you are more likely to fall over and be unable to arrest the fall? I might be a bit out of date though....

In reply to galpinos:
what if you fall in the crevasse? and no I'm not sure, it's just what I vaguely remember from an alpine skills course!

In reply to maxsmith:

I disagree - if your mate falls into a crevasse you don't want the load high up, on your chest coils, as there's a very real chance that you'll be pulled head-first towards said crevasse in a very awkward position to arrest from. If the load comes onto your waist it will be much easier to control.

If you're the unlucky sod who's fallen into the crevasse then yes, having your weight supported by your coils will help you stay upright, and that's why having an easily adjustable method of redirecting the load is good.

In reply to tehmarks:

...so you need a set-up where the load comes on your chest coils (in case you fall in) and your harness (in case your mate falls in). Which, from memory, is where the pre-placed prusik comes in. I think you can use it as a kind of 'handle' to take some of the load if your mate falls in.

Disclaimer: This could all be bollocks as my memory of the course isn't great. Someone cleverer will advise no doubt..

In reply to maxsmith:

The standard way of doing things seems to be either a clove hitch, or a prusik (but clipped to your harness rather than dangling limply on the rope). You have a teeny bit of slack between your coils and your preferred method, so in the event of a fall the load comes onto your harness via whichever method you've used. If you end up dangling in a crevasse you can then adjust the clove hitch or slide the prusik so that your chest coils are taking your weight.

The priority surely needs to be remaining in control holding a fall, so you don't both end up in the hole.

Both methods were demonstrated by a Conville Course guide last year, and I think the Micro Traxion in place of prusik was shown to another group on the same course by a different guide, but my memory is hazy which is why I decided to kill some time experimenting yesterday.

Of course, my alpine experience is limited to a couple of seasons, so I'll also be waiting for that cleverer person to come along and add in their experience.

In reply to galpinos:


I was taught that if you are 2nd or 3rd on the rope team and thus less likely to go in a slot, to direct the rope down from the knot in the coil and through a biner on the front of my harness. This way, the initial impact is at waist level rather than straight onto your chest, but it can be unclipped and set higher if you are 1st on the rope, to keep you upright when you go in.

It's not ideal, I know, but quite a few things in crevasse rescue/prep are not ideal. It really is best to:
a) avoid going in one in the first place = read the terrain
b) don't go plummeting right down into it = keep the rope firm
c) travel three on a rope rather than two if you can arrange it

In reply to tehmarks:

So you are talking about the standard method of putting prusics on the rope just infront of the climber... the problem as you've rightly indicated is mantle stripping - prussics have been known to slide forwards, thereby making it bear the load during a fall and either snap, or strip the rope sheath. A micro traxion will almost certainly strip the sheath if that happened and it's more likey to happen as there is less friction between the device and the rope. And again, what happens when there is a way out by going down? You can't let slack out on a micro traxion... Mind you, you can't do that on a clovehitch either... tied of friction hitch you could, a tied off belay plate or an autolocker...

In reply to beardy mike:

Would it actually though? I seem to recall a figure of 4.5Kn, above which sheath damage may occur. Physics is not my strong point - how easy would it be to generate 4.5Kn in a crevasse fall if the rope is reasonably taut as it should be?

In reply to beardy mike:


1. The Grigri is not an autoblock.
2. Do you really take a Grigri on glacier travel?

If I understand the post correctly the micro traxion / prusik / whatever is simply in the rope 'in case' NOT to hold any load.

In reply to tehmarks:

I've also wondered how safe it is to fall onto a microtraxion with some (hopefully little) slack in the rope.
The 4.5 - 5kN quoted values appear to be for 'static' loads & Petzl say: "the rope damage values, recorded during the dynamic tests (falls/shock loads) are generally lower than with slow-pull: the frame-loaded rope clamps are not designed to hold shock loads."
4.5kN is a quite severe lead fall though, so I'd think on a glacier slide into crevasse the peak force would almost always be a lot lower. I don't think it's recommended practice though & would prefer to tie in to a screwgate on the belay loop.

https://www.petzl.com/GB/en/Sport/Static-tests?ProductName=MICRO-TRAXION#.W...

In reply to Andy Say:

Anyone else use the kiwi coil- keeps the load down low- have tested this :0

youtube.com/watch?v=6bq7_is-dJQ&

In reply to Andy Say:

Yeah OK, "assisted lock". Read the article I linked. The assisted lock is back up by your chest loop tie off and would I take an asisted lock device on a glacier? If I was doing a mountain rock route then yes I might - an Alpine up or similar device would work as well as has distinct advantages in a mountain environment when you are fatigued and maybe not paying as much attention as you should, or moving together and frequently changing the length of you tie in. I know it sounds totally outlandish but think about some of the advantages you gain rather than thinking of it as a sport climbing tool.

In reply to tehmarks:

Well given that pretty much a minimum for a fall is 3kN due to rope dynamics, and the average climbing fall generates in the region of 6-7kn, not THAT hard. Sure, you'd be fine if it was a gentle sliding slip, but why risk it? Personally I don't preinstall prussics on that basis aswell.