In reply to Postmanpat:
Overall, that was a mononumentally unconconvincing defense of your point, but thanks anyway,
> Because it is simplistic and not supported by the evidence. A brief look at the British (past or present) or other experiences demonstrates that State run services can be appallingly bad.
We have no analysis of the evidence available. Let's be honest, we have no evidence from which to conclude whether renationalisation of the railways would work well or badly, it could easily be either, and it would depened on the details of exactly how it was implemented. What I object to is your bald ideological statement that to believe in nationalisation is "ludicrously childish". It isn't, and you have failed to give good reasons why you think it is.
> The idea that the services will necessarily be run in the interests of the users is counter-intuitive and often demonstrably not true. The idea (often cited) that the absence of dividend payments will necessarily result in significantly lower prices is neither born out by the arithmetic nor experience. The idea that "planning" by poorly paid factotums will miraculously solve every issue is utopian.
Any system needs to be set up correctly with the right incentives to encourage success. You're just making a crappy straw man argument: naitonalisation means putting a load of civil servants with no particular interest in anything in charge of running something important, not paying them much regardless of results, and hoping that they'll do a brilliant job because they're all so passionate about delivering public services. You haven't given any reasons why a system cannot be created that incentivises success.
One theme that runs through right-wing thinking is that only thing human beings care about is money (one can only speculate why they think this...). This misses the point that money is a proxy for status ("glory" or "honour") and that the choice between public glory and humiliation is also a strong motivator. If the people running public services are faceless bureaucrats who get a big pay-off when they f*ck everything up and get sacked, then there is very little motivation to do well, and that would not be a good way to run the system. Such incentives to succeed need to run throughout the system - it requires good design. As of course does a private business. There is nothing automatically good or successful about either. A business can be designed such that the only thing it does is attempt to make money the easiest way at the cost of actually producing anything worthwhile, and engaging in dishonest, dangerous behaviours (without the very strict regulation and other non-profit incentives, the company I work for would do precisely this, and indeed it tries to sometimes and falls fowl of the consequences). Ignoring this motivation in private business is simplistic and utopian and is willfully ignored by those with an ideological bent towards privatisation.
> None of which is to say that State run services are always worse.
Exactly. Your statement was ideological guff, not an argument.
> There seems to be a weird failure on the part of the "Cornbynite left" to understand cause, effect and incentives. This is characterised by their views on tax: a refusal to understand that tax changes lead to behavioural changes , on benefits: a refusal to understand that changes in benefits change behaviours, and on State planning: a naive assumption that without appropriate incentives an institution will always operate in the interests of the public rather than itself.
I agree. I'm not defending the Labour manifesto, which reads more like a fairy story than a realistic programme of government. But I am defending the policy renationalisation against empty ideological statements based on nothing more on than the right-wing fallacy that the market knows best and will deliver efficient public services just because someone can make money out it.