This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
I'm puzzled. Both the Tories and Labour have pro-Brexit manifestos. They are currently adding up to 80% in the polls. The only party in England wanting to stay in the EU, the Lib Dems, are polling at a mere 8%. Why so low? Why isn't a large Remain horde rallying to their banner?
There are a lot of Remainers on here, so can you explain yourselves, who are you intending to vote for any why?
Is the idea to vote for Labour, since while they have a pro-Brexit manifesto they are less gung-ho about Brexit than the Tories, so giving them more MPs would help produce a softer Brexit, whereas the Lib Dems are out of things?
There are a lot of Remainers on here, so can you explain yourselves, who are you intending to vote for any why?
Is the idea to vote for Labour, since while they have a pro-Brexit manifesto they are less gung-ho about Brexit than the Tories, so giving them more MPs would help produce a softer Brexit, whereas the Lib Dems are out of things?
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I would guess that it is an election based on policies that amount to more than just EU in/out.
I would guess that it is an election based on policies that amount to more than just EU in/out.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I will be voting lib dem, because of brexit and because the people directly behind Corbyn do not fill me with confidence. If I was in a marginal seat, I probably wouldn't though. FPTP encourages the two party status quo.
I will be voting lib dem, because of brexit and because the people directly behind Corbyn do not fill me with confidence. If I was in a marginal seat, I probably wouldn't though. FPTP encourages the two party status quo.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
>There are a lot of Remainers on here, so can you explain yourselves, who are you intending to vote for any why?
I genuinely have no idea, for the reasons you outline.
>There are a lot of Remainers on here, so can you explain yourselves, who are you intending to vote for any why?
I genuinely have no idea, for the reasons you outline.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I will be voting Lib Dem and I'm working for the party. It's disappointing that we're not higher in the opinion polls. I think FPTP is one issue as mentioned. Also there's not a lot of exposure for the Lib Dems in the media. Tim Farron is saying very sensible things with passion but not everyone sees him as having sufficient gravitas as leader - sad because I think he comes across well by comparison with Corbyn.
I also think other issues than Brexit are coming to the fore, giving Labour a boost at present. The "dementia tax" is a spectacular Tory own goal which Labour are in prime position to exploit.
Martin
Edited to add: Coel, I hope you will vote Lib Dem. Every Lib Dem vote, even in unwinnable constituencies, is a vote against Hard Brexit. In my view there's never been a better time for Lib Dem inclined voters to vote Lib Dem rather than tactically for another party, even though I've done that in the past myself.
I will be voting Lib Dem and I'm working for the party. It's disappointing that we're not higher in the opinion polls. I think FPTP is one issue as mentioned. Also there's not a lot of exposure for the Lib Dems in the media. Tim Farron is saying very sensible things with passion but not everyone sees him as having sufficient gravitas as leader - sad because I think he comes across well by comparison with Corbyn.
I also think other issues than Brexit are coming to the fore, giving Labour a boost at present. The "dementia tax" is a spectacular Tory own goal which Labour are in prime position to exploit.
Martin
Edited to add: Coel, I hope you will vote Lib Dem. Every Lib Dem vote, even in unwinnable constituencies, is a vote against Hard Brexit. In my view there's never been a better time for Lib Dem inclined voters to vote Lib Dem rather than tactically for another party, even though I've done that in the past myself.
Post edited at 10:18
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
Voting Lib Dem here only helps the Tories. if I lived somewhere with a Lib Dem MP or where they are the second party to the Conservatives I would happily vote for them.
Voting Lib Dem here only helps the Tories. if I lived somewhere with a Lib Dem MP or where they are the second party to the Conservatives I would happily vote for them.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
It's all down to the FPTP system and tactical voting. Unfortunately the system we have means that neither vote share nor seats actually tells you which party people want in charge.
Interestingly I saw a website the other day that quizzed you on your preferred sets of policies without telling you which manifesto they came from. Despite only having one MP the green party had the most preferred set of policies. Just shows how FPTP perpetuates a stalemate.
It's all down to the FPTP system and tactical voting. Unfortunately the system we have means that neither vote share nor seats actually tells you which party people want in charge.
Interestingly I saw a website the other day that quizzed you on your preferred sets of policies without telling you which manifesto they came from. Despite only having one MP the green party had the most preferred set of policies. Just shows how FPTP perpetuates a stalemate.
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In reply to Dave Garnett:
>I genuinely have no idea, for the reasons you outline.
Same here. I can only think that it's something vaguely to do with history going in cycles ... of rationality and irrationality, peace and aggression etc etc. Or, in politics, what used to be known as 'the swing of the pendulum'. There certainly seems to be an alarming swing once more towards fascism in parts of the western world. But all I'm doing is making an observation (a bit like observing the weather); it doesn't amount to any kind of explanation.
> >There are a lot of Remainers on here, so can you explain yourselves, who are you intending to vote for any why?
>I genuinely have no idea, for the reasons you outline.
Same here. I can only think that it's something vaguely to do with history going in cycles ... of rationality and irrationality, peace and aggression etc etc. Or, in politics, what used to be known as 'the swing of the pendulum'. There certainly seems to be an alarming swing once more towards fascism in parts of the western world. But all I'm doing is making an observation (a bit like observing the weather); it doesn't amount to any kind of explanation.
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In reply to Martin Hore:
However, these days I've become a "single issue fanatic" voter, promising to give my vote only to a party that will make progress on secular issues and ending religious privilege.
The Lib Dems don't quite qualify, indeed they've just chickened out:
"The LibDem spring conference backed the phasing out of religious discrimination in school admissions, an end to compulsory worship, and reform of religion and belief education – commitments missing from the manifesto."
http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2017/05/what-do-the-main-parties-have-to-...
If they put such things in their manifesto they'll have my vote.
> Edited to add: Coel, I hope you will vote Lib Dem. Every Lib Dem vote, even in unwinnable constituencies, is a vote against Hard Brexit.
However, these days I've become a "single issue fanatic" voter, promising to give my vote only to a party that will make progress on secular issues and ending religious privilege.
The Lib Dems don't quite qualify, indeed they've just chickened out:
"The LibDem spring conference backed the phasing out of religious discrimination in school admissions, an end to compulsory worship, and reform of religion and belief education – commitments missing from the manifesto."
http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2017/05/what-do-the-main-parties-have-to-...
If they put such things in their manifesto they'll have my vote.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
One reason is that there is a sizeable chunk of people who voted Remain and still would like to stay in the EU but now believe that it is the duty of the government to carry out the will of the people. Yougov estimates this group to be 23% of the electorate.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-bre...
One reason is that there is a sizeable chunk of people who voted Remain and still would like to stay in the EU but now believe that it is the duty of the government to carry out the will of the people. Yougov estimates this group to be 23% of the electorate.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-bre...
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
Im very annoyed with brexit - may leave the UK when my daughter finishes school.
But I live and work in London and have a Labour MP.- and like most London MPs mine voted against brexit and she is dead set against it.
If I was in Richmond or Vauxhall (Kate Hoey MP) I would vote Lib Dem.
Im very annoyed with brexit - may leave the UK when my daughter finishes school.
But I live and work in London and have a Labour MP.- and like most London MPs mine voted against brexit and she is dead set against it.
If I was in Richmond or Vauxhall (Kate Hoey MP) I would vote Lib Dem.
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In reply to Bob Hughes:
I agree, that's what's happening. But it's NOT the will of the people, it was the will of 52% of the people, many of whom were misled by false statements on the sides of buses. For democracy to work in practice, "the people" need to be given accurate information from an unbiased body, outlining the consequences of either decision. (And I'm not sure binary decisions are true democracy either: life is much more complicated than that). "The people" also need to have learnt how to think for themselves, and to accept that this is real life, not Strictly Come Politics, and that everything has its price.
So 23% of Remainers are giving in gracefully? What price principles?
Problem is, we've left ourselves nowhere to go. The only answer is to vote the LibDems in - but that ain't going to happen. (Is it?)
> One reason is that there is a sizeable chunk of people who voted Remain and still would like to stay in the EU but now believe that it is the duty of the government to carry out the will of the people.
I agree, that's what's happening. But it's NOT the will of the people, it was the will of 52% of the people, many of whom were misled by false statements on the sides of buses. For democracy to work in practice, "the people" need to be given accurate information from an unbiased body, outlining the consequences of either decision. (And I'm not sure binary decisions are true democracy either: life is much more complicated than that). "The people" also need to have learnt how to think for themselves, and to accept that this is real life, not Strictly Come Politics, and that everything has its price.
So 23% of Remainers are giving in gracefully? What price principles?
Problem is, we've left ourselves nowhere to go. The only answer is to vote the LibDems in - but that ain't going to happen. (Is it?)
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In reply to Footloose:
Good job the remain camp and Osbourne never made any of those misleading statements.
> many of whom were misled by false statements
Good job the remain camp and Osbourne never made any of those misleading statements.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
My gripe was that they didn't vow just to reverse Article 50, no questions asked, no second referendums etc. This is something myself and many other Remain voters could have got behind. Instead they've flip flopped and for a party with nothing to lose, it's not good enough.
That said, I haven't actually worked out how I'll vote yet. The Green manifesto looks interesting and they have a fair chance in my constituency.
> I'm puzzled. Both the Tories and Labour have pro-Brexit manifestos. They are currently adding up to 80% in the polls. The only party in England wanting to stay in the EU, the Lib Dems, are polling at a mere 8%. Why so low? Why isn't a large Remain horde rallying to their banner?
> There are a lot of Remainers on here, so can you explain yourselves, who are you intending to vote for any why?
> Is the idea to vote for Labour, since while they have a pro-Brexit manifesto they are less gung-ho about Brexit than the Tories, so giving them more MPs would help produce a softer Brexit, whereas the Lib Dems are out of things?
My gripe was that they didn't vow just to reverse Article 50, no questions asked, no second referendums etc. This is something myself and many other Remain voters could have got behind. Instead they've flip flopped and for a party with nothing to lose, it's not good enough.
That said, I haven't actually worked out how I'll vote yet. The Green manifesto looks interesting and they have a fair chance in my constituency.
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In reply to Footloose:
Of course. It was a lie fest all round.
I don't agree with the lib dems eu stance, but agree with pretty much everything else. I do hope they can gain some ground back, although I can't see it with Farron. For a party that usually has diversity and equality written through the middle of it, I sense he is harbouring a few hard line happy clapper views that would be better suited to the USA bible belt.
> Aye. Hence my next sentence.
Of course. It was a lie fest all round.
I don't agree with the lib dems eu stance, but agree with pretty much everything else. I do hope they can gain some ground back, although I can't see it with Farron. For a party that usually has diversity and equality written through the middle of it, I sense he is harbouring a few hard line happy clapper views that would be better suited to the USA bible belt.
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In reply to Footloose:
But there is no such thing. No-one has a good track record in macro-economic predictions. Most macro-economic predictions are highly ideological.
(And no, I don't believe the "voters were duped" line, yes many claims, such as those on the side of buses, were dubious, but that dubiousness was repeatedly highlighted in the campaign.)
> For democracy to work in practice, "the people" need to be given accurate information from an unbiased body, outlining the consequences of either decision.
But there is no such thing. No-one has a good track record in macro-economic predictions. Most macro-economic predictions are highly ideological.
(And no, I don't believe the "voters were duped" line, yes many claims, such as those on the side of buses, were dubious, but that dubiousness was repeatedly highlighted in the campaign.)
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In reply to summo:
I'm with you there: the LibDems are worth the vote for a lot more besides Brexit - and we really need them to get us out of this two-party deadlock and into the realms of grown-up politics. (That was another vox pop fiasco: you want PR? - well, let's have a vote on AV. It was a start, but not nearly enough).
I think Tim Farron's probably a good chap, salt of the earth; but a country needs a leader with vision, gravitas and charisma too. Quick, where is he? (Well, Nick Harvey's standing again: they could do worse).
I'm with you there: the LibDems are worth the vote for a lot more besides Brexit - and we really need them to get us out of this two-party deadlock and into the realms of grown-up politics. (That was another vox pop fiasco: you want PR? - well, let's have a vote on AV. It was a start, but not nearly enough).
I think Tim Farron's probably a good chap, salt of the earth; but a country needs a leader with vision, gravitas and charisma too. Quick, where is he? (Well, Nick Harvey's standing again: they could do worse).
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
Surely even the remainers recognise that the vote to leave the EU was a democratic decision, and voting LibDem with the intention of ignoring that is undemocratic. They may still wish we were not going to leave but they have the decency to recognise and accept a democratic referendum. The LibDems do themselves no favours with their stance.
Surely even the remainers recognise that the vote to leave the EU was a democratic decision, and voting LibDem with the intention of ignoring that is undemocratic. They may still wish we were not going to leave but they have the decency to recognise and accept a democratic referendum. The LibDems do themselves no favours with their stance.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
'Not the tories' is about all I can definitively say about who I will vote for. The others are still competing to see who can be the least worst option.
The answer to 'Why not vote for the Lib Dems purely on Brexit grounds' is because holding referendum mkII and voting to remain now (presumably their ideal course of action if it were possible) is not the same as undoing the last year and changing the result of the first referendum.
- Our relationship with our EU partners would remain damaged
- Our credibility internationally would be damaged (if we can have ref 2 to reverse ref 1 what's to say we won't do it again in another year's time?)
- The same toxic issues that led to the original 'out' vote would still exist, and if anything would be given actual credibility by the appearance of ignoring ref. mk1.
Having a final referendum on the deal and saying we won't follow through on leaving if we don't like it (their actual proposal) is a really dumb idea. The EU don't want us to leave in the first place! All that does is incentivise them to negotiate a harsh deal that the populace (who are only very mildly in favour of this whole debacle anyway) can't accept.
I actually think that the Lib Dems are stunningly naive to make this a major plank of their platform, but then that is one of their defining qualities (I have voted for them in the past - I like them, but lets face it they keep making stupid choices).
'Not the tories' is about all I can definitively say about who I will vote for. The others are still competing to see who can be the least worst option.
The answer to 'Why not vote for the Lib Dems purely on Brexit grounds' is because holding referendum mkII and voting to remain now (presumably their ideal course of action if it were possible) is not the same as undoing the last year and changing the result of the first referendum.
- Our relationship with our EU partners would remain damaged
- Our credibility internationally would be damaged (if we can have ref 2 to reverse ref 1 what's to say we won't do it again in another year's time?)
- The same toxic issues that led to the original 'out' vote would still exist, and if anything would be given actual credibility by the appearance of ignoring ref. mk1.
Having a final referendum on the deal and saying we won't follow through on leaving if we don't like it (their actual proposal) is a really dumb idea. The EU don't want us to leave in the first place! All that does is incentivise them to negotiate a harsh deal that the populace (who are only very mildly in favour of this whole debacle anyway) can't accept.
I actually think that the Lib Dems are stunningly naive to make this a major plank of their platform, but then that is one of their defining qualities (I have voted for them in the past - I like them, but lets face it they keep making stupid choices).
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In reply to Greasy Prusiks:
I live in one of the few current Lib Dem Constituencies. Also very pro-Remain.
However, I won't be voting Lib Dem. This is a General Election and I'm 'choosing' a national government.
I live in one of the few current Lib Dem Constituencies. Also very pro-Remain.
However, I won't be voting Lib Dem. This is a General Election and I'm 'choosing' a national government.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I think there's a difference between levels of dishonesty. Everyone knows that economic predictions aren't an exact science, and I believe this worked to the advantage of the Leave campaign.
Take Remain's predictions of economic gloom - you couldn't call them a straight up lie, but you could accuse them of making assumptions and taking the most pessimistic projections. So it was dishonest without being a lie.
Compare with the £350 million. This was a definite lie because that sum had never been sent to the EU, but it benefited from this economic vagueness that people might think there was a case for reclaiming at least some of that figure.
> But there is no such thing. No-one has a good track record in macro-economic predictions. Most macro-economic predictions are highly ideological.
> (And no, I don't believe the "voters were duped" line, yes many claims, such as those on the side of buses, were dubious, but that dubiousness was repeatedly highlighted in the campaign.)
I think there's a difference between levels of dishonesty. Everyone knows that economic predictions aren't an exact science, and I believe this worked to the advantage of the Leave campaign.
Take Remain's predictions of economic gloom - you couldn't call them a straight up lie, but you could accuse them of making assumptions and taking the most pessimistic projections. So it was dishonest without being a lie.
Compare with the £350 million. This was a definite lie because that sum had never been sent to the EU, but it benefited from this economic vagueness that people might think there was a case for reclaiming at least some of that figure.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I have a good pro-remain Labour MP who so far votes for her constituents not her career. A Lib Dem resurgence would very likely land us with a tory MP rather than a Lib Dem. Not sure what our tory candidate's views are on Europe, I'll ask him next week out of curiosity but he won't be getting my vote either way. Greens stepped down and are backing Labour locally. I'll be voting Labour, I like their manifesto and I trust my MP to vote to block or soften our EU exit as best she can.
Basically, that and I like their policies. A Lib Dem government offering the public a choice when the terms of exit are known would get my vote any day of the week but that isn't what I'm voting for in my constituency and I'm simply not willing to risk giving the tories a stronger mandate. In a PR system I'd be voting Lib Dem this year for that 2nd referendum alone.
jk
> Why isn't a large Remain horde rallying to their banner? There are a lot of Remainers on here, so can you explain yourselves, who are you intending to vote for any why?
I have a good pro-remain Labour MP who so far votes for her constituents not her career. A Lib Dem resurgence would very likely land us with a tory MP rather than a Lib Dem. Not sure what our tory candidate's views are on Europe, I'll ask him next week out of curiosity but he won't be getting my vote either way. Greens stepped down and are backing Labour locally. I'll be voting Labour, I like their manifesto and I trust my MP to vote to block or soften our EU exit as best she can.
> Is the idea to vote for Labour, since while they have a pro-Brexit manifesto they are less gung-ho about Brexit than the Tories, so giving them more MPs would help produce a softer Brexit, whereas the Lib Dems are out of things?
Basically, that and I like their policies. A Lib Dem government offering the public a choice when the terms of exit are known would get my vote any day of the week but that isn't what I'm voting for in my constituency and I'm simply not willing to risk giving the tories a stronger mandate. In a PR system I'd be voting Lib Dem this year for that 2nd referendum alone.
jk
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In reply to cragtaff:
Democracy does not start or end with a vote. Nothing the Lib Dem's are proposing is undemocratic, quite the opposite, in the original sense of the word their offering of a final public vote on the negotiated terms of our exit is the most democratic offering we have on the ballot paper regarding brexit so far (awaiting the Greens offering).
I don't accept we have to leave because we narrowly decided to on based on at best incomplete information. I don't consider that indecent or undemocratic.
jk
> Surely even the remainers recognise that the vote to leave the EU was a democratic decision, and voting LibDem with the intention of ignoring that is undemocratic.
Democracy does not start or end with a vote. Nothing the Lib Dem's are proposing is undemocratic, quite the opposite, in the original sense of the word their offering of a final public vote on the negotiated terms of our exit is the most democratic offering we have on the ballot paper regarding brexit so far (awaiting the Greens offering).
> They may still wish we were not going to leave but they have the decency to recognise and accept a democratic referendum.
I don't accept we have to leave because we narrowly decided to on based on at best incomplete information. I don't consider that indecent or undemocratic.
jk
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I am a remain voter in Scotland in a constituency that was Lib Dem for 10 years preceding the last general election when the seat went to the SNP. In the recent local elections the council seats went more or less 3 ways between Tory, Lib Dem and SNP.
I am generally inclined to vote Green, but I won't this election. This is partially because Lib Dem do have a real chance to win their seat back in my constituency, and partially because despite generally liking their manifesto I don't agree with the Scottish Green's stance on Scottish independence. Consequently for now, Lib Dem it is.
I am a remain voter in Scotland in a constituency that was Lib Dem for 10 years preceding the last general election when the seat went to the SNP. In the recent local elections the council seats went more or less 3 ways between Tory, Lib Dem and SNP.
I am generally inclined to vote Green, but I won't this election. This is partially because Lib Dem do have a real chance to win their seat back in my constituency, and partially because despite generally liking their manifesto I don't agree with the Scottish Green's stance on Scottish independence. Consequently for now, Lib Dem it is.
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In reply to kathrync:
I have a real issue with this in my (Scottish) constituency. I've always voted LibDem, and that's my inclination now too; but I'm also keen to keep the SNP strong, because it seems to me they're the only party able to stand up to The May (even if the latter lady is declaring that hers is the only party able to stand up to them. Probably the other side of the same coin?) Of course, the independence issue makes it even harder to separate out the different strands of who to vote for, and why.
I have a real issue with this in my (Scottish) constituency. I've always voted LibDem, and that's my inclination now too; but I'm also keen to keep the SNP strong, because it seems to me they're the only party able to stand up to The May (even if the latter lady is declaring that hers is the only party able to stand up to them. Probably the other side of the same coin?) Of course, the independence issue makes it even harder to separate out the different strands of who to vote for, and why.
Post edited at 11:57
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In reply to cragtaff:
As David Davis himself said, if a democracy cannot change its mind then it ceases to be a democracy.
If the Lib Dems stood on a platform to reverse article 50 in a national election, then this would be democracy in action.
As David Davis himself said, if a democracy cannot change its mind then it ceases to be a democracy.
If the Lib Dems stood on a platform to reverse article 50 in a national election, then this would be democracy in action.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I voted liberal in the last 2 elections and I voted remain.
I will not be voting for them this time.Farron is not up in the same league as either say Clegg or Cable.
The local Tory Mp voted remain and I have decided to cast me vote in with him to keep the Tory right wing nutters at bay.Not an answer that some people enjoy hearing.
I voted liberal in the last 2 elections and I voted remain.
I will not be voting for them this time.Farron is not up in the same league as either say Clegg or Cable.
The local Tory Mp voted remain and I have decided to cast me vote in with him to keep the Tory right wing nutters at bay.Not an answer that some people enjoy hearing.
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In reply to neilh:
>The local Tory Mp voted remain and I have decided to cast me vote in with him to keep the Tory right wing nutters at bay.Not an answer that some people enjoy hearing.
Assuming that your Tory becomes your MP there is not a cats chance in hell he will do anything at all to soften brexit. A landslide victory for the Tories will ensure we get the hardest of brexits
>The local Tory Mp voted remain and I have decided to cast me vote in with him to keep the Tory right wing nutters at bay.Not an answer that some people enjoy hearing.
Assuming that your Tory becomes your MP there is not a cats chance in hell he will do anything at all to soften brexit. A landslide victory for the Tories will ensure we get the hardest of brexits
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In reply to Andy Hardy:
There are very mixed views on that proposition.
I was listening to Clegg this morning, pity he had not stuck around as a leader. Farron is just a waste of space.
There are very mixed views on that proposition.
I was listening to Clegg this morning, pity he had not stuck around as a leader. Farron is just a waste of space.
Post edited at 16:46
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In reply to neilh:
Farron isn't a waste of space. He's a good bloke, but I agree he may not be the man for the hour. Nick Clegg is very impressive. He is a serious , humane man who has been through the fire politically. I hope he will hang in there because tempered steel is stronger and maybe his time will come.
May is turning out to be weak. When the current starts to get stronger she begins to drift. Her "strong and stable" slogan is not as clever as they all thought.
Corbyn just doesn't seem up to it, but the Labour manifesto is a coup.
Farron isn't a waste of space. He's a good bloke, but I agree he may not be the man for the hour. Nick Clegg is very impressive. He is a serious , humane man who has been through the fire politically. I hope he will hang in there because tempered steel is stronger and maybe his time will come.
May is turning out to be weak. When the current starts to get stronger she begins to drift. Her "strong and stable" slogan is not as clever as they all thought.
Corbyn just doesn't seem up to it, but the Labour manifesto is a coup.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I haven't fully decided.
I am a Remainer
I have no confidence in Corbyn or his fragmented party, nor in my local Labour candidate
My MP is Conservative and she will win easily, but I am becoming increasingly alarmed by May, and dislike the prospect of a virtually unopposed right wing Conservative government.
I have some sympathy with the Lib/Dems and might vote for them, but my local Lib/Dem candidate doesn't inspire me, and I think the Lib/Dems have failed miserably to get their act together to take advantage of what could have been an open goal facing them in the light of people's unease at the two main parties. The only thing about them that appeals to me is that they are pro Remain, but I doubt their ability to deliver.
The Greens? Well, they've never had any prospect of leading their party in the modern commercial world, are and will remain "also rans" for the foreseeable future. Can anyone imagine them standing up to the likes of Putin? Or negotiating with the Europeans?
So back to the beginning of this post - I really don't know, and remain undecided in the face of such dreadful choices.
I haven't fully decided.
I am a Remainer
I have no confidence in Corbyn or his fragmented party, nor in my local Labour candidate
My MP is Conservative and she will win easily, but I am becoming increasingly alarmed by May, and dislike the prospect of a virtually unopposed right wing Conservative government.
I have some sympathy with the Lib/Dems and might vote for them, but my local Lib/Dem candidate doesn't inspire me, and I think the Lib/Dems have failed miserably to get their act together to take advantage of what could have been an open goal facing them in the light of people's unease at the two main parties. The only thing about them that appeals to me is that they are pro Remain, but I doubt their ability to deliver.
The Greens? Well, they've never had any prospect of leading their party in the modern commercial world, are and will remain "also rans" for the foreseeable future. Can anyone imagine them standing up to the likes of Putin? Or negotiating with the Europeans?
So back to the beginning of this post - I really don't know, and remain undecided in the face of such dreadful choices.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I read on the BBC website that there's quite a bit of chat from focus groups etc. that a reasonable number of "remainers" voted remain, but now that the referendum has passed just want the government to get on with it and do it well, not to try to overturn the referendum.
I read on the BBC website that there's quite a bit of chat from focus groups etc. that a reasonable number of "remainers" voted remain, but now that the referendum has passed just want the government to get on with it and do it well, not to try to overturn the referendum.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I will vote Lib Dems, because in general I'm pro liberal policies, not particularly on the Remain issue.
I will vote Lib Dems, because in general I'm pro liberal policies, not particularly on the Remain issue.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I've considered going Lib Dem as a protest against Labour's gutless stance on Brexit. I've always voted Labour in the past and definitely don't want the Tories/Kim Jong May to get in with a bigger majority. But Maria Eagle, my MP, voted against Brexit. What to do, eh?
I've considered going Lib Dem as a protest against Labour's gutless stance on Brexit. I've always voted Labour in the past and definitely don't want the Tories/Kim Jong May to get in with a bigger majority. But Maria Eagle, my MP, voted against Brexit. What to do, eh?
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Some interesting demographics.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/demographics-dividing-britain/
Lib dems do pretty well in the degree educated and the higher paid. Quite simply they have the most evidence based policy ideas and the least ideological attachment. Hence perhaps the views of Uncle Roy Lilley on t'other thread. I find it sad that the voting system when I first got to vote is barely different from now and arguably the level of bullshit from the two major parties has never been worse (certainly so for the tories). Still I'd always support collective hope (with maybe a degree of wishful thinking) over empty corporate style rhetoric, (ruthlessly cynical and thin on any clear facts) given Hobson's choice. My love of black humour is certainly being tested to levels of gluttony: pick your U turn....strong and stable or McClusky style.
Some interesting demographics.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/04/25/demographics-dividing-britain/
Lib dems do pretty well in the degree educated and the higher paid. Quite simply they have the most evidence based policy ideas and the least ideological attachment. Hence perhaps the views of Uncle Roy Lilley on t'other thread. I find it sad that the voting system when I first got to vote is barely different from now and arguably the level of bullshit from the two major parties has never been worse (certainly so for the tories). Still I'd always support collective hope (with maybe a degree of wishful thinking) over empty corporate style rhetoric, (ruthlessly cynical and thin on any clear facts) given Hobson's choice. My love of black humour is certainly being tested to levels of gluttony: pick your U turn....strong and stable or McClusky style.
Post edited at 18:50
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I am a Remainer and will vote LibDem. It is an easy choice. I can not vote for the weak and unstable May and her party of U-turners and liars. And Labour seem incapable of providing a credible opposition and are led by a leader with no leadership qualities.
I am a Remainer and will vote LibDem. It is an easy choice. I can not vote for the weak and unstable May and her party of U-turners and liars. And Labour seem incapable of providing a credible opposition and are led by a leader with no leadership qualities.
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In reply to Footloose:
No.
However, voting Lib dem may save a few of their deposits, that is all I can see the Lib Dem can hope for.
I voted for Brexit, and I'm being targeted by the Lib Dems on social media to vote for them !
All I can say is that whatever algorithm they are using to pick out potential supporters it is WAY off
( SNP will win in my constituency , I will not vote for them either)
> The only answer is to vote the LibDems in - but that ain't going to happen. (Is it?)
No.
However, voting Lib dem may save a few of their deposits, that is all I can see the Lib Dem can hope for.
I voted for Brexit, and I'm being targeted by the Lib Dems on social media to vote for them !
All I can say is that whatever algorithm they are using to pick out potential supporters it is WAY off
( SNP will win in my constituency , I will not vote for them either)
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In reply to climbwhenready:
Well Teresa has just stated that she rejects paying the EU a bill and in fact wants 10billion back for our share of EU assets built up with huge UK contributions .
Will she 'do it well'
> I read on the BBC website that there's quite a bit of chat from focus groups etc. that a reasonable number of "remainers" voted remain, but now that the referendum has passed just want the government to get on with it and do it well.
Well Teresa has just stated that she rejects paying the EU a bill and in fact wants 10billion back for our share of EU assets built up with huge UK contributions .
Will she 'do it well'
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In reply to John Stainforth:
Indeed, but guaranteeing a second referendum on EU membership (as is the Lib Dems want) would give Brussels extra wiggle room; they could field a truly awful proposition of deal in the knowledge that we'd never vote for it, ensuring our membership within the union. In other words, maybe we'd get a better deal if everyone knew that us leaving was non negotiable. It's kind of a Catch 22. The Lib Dems wont be winning anyway so I guess we wont be losing much sleep over this.
Indeed, but guaranteeing a second referendum on EU membership (as is the Lib Dems want) would give Brussels extra wiggle room; they could field a truly awful proposition of deal in the knowledge that we'd never vote for it, ensuring our membership within the union. In other words, maybe we'd get a better deal if everyone knew that us leaving was non negotiable. It's kind of a Catch 22. The Lib Dems wont be winning anyway so I guess we wont be losing much sleep over this.
Post edited at 19:45
In reply to neilh:
I didn't hear Clegg, however just look at the voting records of Tory lobby fodder.
Unless your voting for Ken Clarke your MP won't dare upset the dear leader, hence we'll get what Paul Dacre tells Theresa to propose.
I didn't hear Clegg, however just look at the voting records of Tory lobby fodder.
Unless your voting for Ken Clarke your MP won't dare upset the dear leader, hence we'll get what Paul Dacre tells Theresa to propose.
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In reply to Jim C:
She's full of good-sounding intentions but with a near complete lack of substance to demonstrate that she has any clue that they are even achievable at all, never mind how to go about doing so. I suppose we'll just have to trust her - she is strong and stable after all - then everything will probably work out well.
No, really. They're bound to. Honest.
> Well Teresa has just stated that she rejects paying the EU a bill and in fact wants 10billion back for our share of EU assets built up with huge UK contributions . Will she 'do it well'
She's full of good-sounding intentions but with a near complete lack of substance to demonstrate that she has any clue that they are even achievable at all, never mind how to go about doing so. I suppose we'll just have to trust her - she is strong and stable after all - then everything will probably work out well.
No, really. They're bound to. Honest.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
Perhaps it's time to retire from planet finding and take up politics...
Wouldn't it be interesting if votes were not geographically specific.
> However, these days I've become a "single issue fanatic" voter, promising to give my vote only to a party that will make progress on secular issues and ending religious privilege.
Perhaps it's time to retire from planet finding and take up politics...
Wouldn't it be interesting if votes were not geographically specific.
Post edited at 20:11
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In reply to Malarkey:
If all the people threatening to leave followed though, then we'd be able to take a lot more inwards migrants to fill the spaces left behind. Not being in the EU we could offer the places equitably to people from anywhere in the world. I imagine those migrants would relish the opportunity and work hard for the UK.
Win win all round. I say this as a remain voter.
> Im very annoyed with brexit - may leave the UK when my daughter finishes school.
If all the people threatening to leave followed though, then we'd be able to take a lot more inwards migrants to fill the spaces left behind. Not being in the EU we could offer the places equitably to people from anywhere in the world. I imagine those migrants would relish the opportunity and work hard for the UK.
Win win all round. I say this as a remain voter.
Post edited at 20:19
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In reply to wintertree:
I was reading that the singer Cher said she would leave the country if Trump got elected.
She is still there last time they looked
If people want to leave fair enough, but uprooting your life for a , here today gone tomorrow, politician or political policy, is just bonkers.
I was reading that the singer Cher said she would leave the country if Trump got elected.
She is still there last time they looked
If people want to leave fair enough, but uprooting your life for a , here today gone tomorrow, politician or political policy, is just bonkers.
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In reply to john arran:
The best ( of a bad lot) I suppose .
> everything will probably work out well.No, really. They're bound to. Honest.
The best ( of a bad lot) I suppose .
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In reply to kathrync:
Heh, I'll be voting SNP as I agree with them on a lot and I don't agree with the Lib Dems' stance on Scottish independence.
If I lived outside Scotland I'd vote Lib Dem, or just maybe Green - my opinion of the Tories has gone from "don't really like them" to "despise them" - and Labour have been keen to be seen supporting them on most of the stuff that's made me feel that way, so I wouldn't consider them either.
My constituency is a straight race between SNP and Tory now, anyway.
> I am generally inclined to vote Green, but I won't this election. This is partially because Lib Dem do have a real chance to win their seat back in my constituency, and partially because despite generally liking their manifesto I don't agree with the Scottish Green's stance on Scottish independence. Consequently for now, Lib Dem it is.
Heh, I'll be voting SNP as I agree with them on a lot and I don't agree with the Lib Dems' stance on Scottish independence.
If I lived outside Scotland I'd vote Lib Dem, or just maybe Green - my opinion of the Tories has gone from "don't really like them" to "despise them" - and Labour have been keen to be seen supporting them on most of the stuff that's made me feel that way, so I wouldn't consider them either.
My constituency is a straight race between SNP and Tory now, anyway.
Post edited at 21:25
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Honestly, I've voted Green/Lib-Dem since uni, but in my area Lib-Dem picked up 4.2% and Green 7.2%.
Labour were 0.9% of the vote behind the Tory MP and right now I feel that tactical voting might be the best bet.
If I thought Green party had even a snow balls chance in hell I'd be there, and yes I know if everyone did the same then they would get the seat.
Honestly, I've voted Green/Lib-Dem since uni, but in my area Lib-Dem picked up 4.2% and Green 7.2%.
Labour were 0.9% of the vote behind the Tory MP and right now I feel that tactical voting might be the best bet.
If I thought Green party had even a snow balls chance in hell I'd be there, and yes I know if everyone did the same then they would get the seat.
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In reply to Jim C:
Brexit isn't here today, gone tomorrow, we won't even have the creases worked out in a decade, the impact will be with us for generations.
Jk
Brexit isn't here today, gone tomorrow, we won't even have the creases worked out in a decade, the impact will be with us for generations.
Jk
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In reply to summo:
Yes Osborne was one of the PF ringleaders.
But matters not a lot really, as claims on both sides were challenged vigorously , by either side, and so claims that were said to mislead the stupid voters ( on either side) were very unlikely to do so, as the statements were challenged, and if anything damaged the camps making them.
Take the remain project fear claims for example, no one would ever listen to that ,and then if they believed it would be true , would vote for Brexit. So those 'stupid' voters who where actually clever enough not to believe the unfounded remain scare stories , were then strangely apparetly completely taken in by everything the Brexit camp said or wrote. I don't think so.
Can they please now bury the endless, carping on that everyone that did not vote remain were stupid, or at best misled by clever Leave politicians, and the clever remain voters were not at all fooled.
It's so tiresome like a stuck record.
Po
> Good job the remain camp and Osbourne never made any of those misleading statements.
Yes Osborne was one of the PF ringleaders.
But matters not a lot really, as claims on both sides were challenged vigorously , by either side, and so claims that were said to mislead the stupid voters ( on either side) were very unlikely to do so, as the statements were challenged, and if anything damaged the camps making them.
Take the remain project fear claims for example, no one would ever listen to that ,and then if they believed it would be true , would vote for Brexit. So those 'stupid' voters who where actually clever enough not to believe the unfounded remain scare stories , were then strangely apparetly completely taken in by everything the Brexit camp said or wrote. I don't think so.
Can they please now bury the endless, carping on that everyone that did not vote remain were stupid, or at best misled by clever Leave politicians, and the clever remain voters were not at all fooled.
It's so tiresome like a stuck record.
Po
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In reply to Jim C:
it is a disservice to suggest that the lies of the Brexit campaign are matched in the Remain campaign (and as Boris J showed today they still cling to them).
Remain misread the likely events that would play out immediately after the vote....
There wasn't much else that was a lie.
Brexit was riddled with untruths, and given the push of a lot of the media many people could easily have not encountered all the arguments against... when things were clearly shown to be wrong they continued to project them.
Brexit served as a box people could pour their delusions fantasies and illusions into... (making it easier for people from India to come here...anyone?).
Remain voters will have been, for a while taken in by this will of the people rubbish.....hopefully that glass is starting to break. They have thought about outcomes and aren't still in love with an abstract concept.
it is a disservice to suggest that the lies of the Brexit campaign are matched in the Remain campaign (and as Boris J showed today they still cling to them).
Remain misread the likely events that would play out immediately after the vote....
There wasn't much else that was a lie.
Brexit was riddled with untruths, and given the push of a lot of the media many people could easily have not encountered all the arguments against... when things were clearly shown to be wrong they continued to project them.
Brexit served as a box people could pour their delusions fantasies and illusions into... (making it easier for people from India to come here...anyone?).
Remain voters will have been, for a while taken in by this will of the people rubbish.....hopefully that glass is starting to break. They have thought about outcomes and aren't still in love with an abstract concept.
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In reply to jkarran:
I suppose you would like us to continue have more referendums until we get the right answer (to remain ) ?
I suppose you would like us to continue have more referendums until we get the right answer (to remain ) ?
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In reply to Jim C:
I'd like us to make a properly informed choice in possession of the hard facts. This decision will impact generations to come, probably the biggest political choice of most people's lives, that you're satisfied it was made in ignorance, whatever the outcome of the actual exit negotiations simply because you 'won' is I think pathetic.
Jk
I'd like us to make a properly informed choice in possession of the hard facts. This decision will impact generations to come, probably the biggest political choice of most people's lives, that you're satisfied it was made in ignorance, whatever the outcome of the actual exit negotiations simply because you 'won' is I think pathetic.
Jk
Post edited at 07:52
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In reply to Jim C:
Funny how you get the dislikes even though this is exactly what has happened before with vocal eu encouragement.
> I suppose you would like us to continue have more referendums until we get the right answer (to remain ) ?
Funny how you get the dislikes even though this is exactly what has happened before with vocal eu encouragement.
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In reply to jkarran:
The ignorance is your assumption, not fact.
> that you're satisfied it was made in ignorance,
The ignorance is your assumption, not fact.
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In reply to Big Ger:
*What will our trading relationship with Europe be?
*What will happen to Northern Ireland's border?
*What will happen to Erasmus?
*What will our ongoing contributions and responsibilities be to the EU?
*Where will the France/UK border checks be?
*What will the rights and responsibilities of EU nationals currently resident in the UK and how will they be guaranteed?
*What will our security and policing cooperation be?
*What happens to Euratom and what are the consequences?
I could go on but if you can answer those few simple questions with references pre-dating June I'll take it at face value that you were fully informed. The thing is I know you can't and I also know we will have to have answers to those questions by the end of the process so you're going to have to argue pretty hard to convince me you won't be in possession of more critically important information in two years time than you were last June. If you're happy to be asked to make the most important political choice of your life on a gut feeling and some expensive propaganda but not in possession of complete and relevant information I really don't know what to say.
jk
*What will our trading relationship with Europe be?
*What will happen to Northern Ireland's border?
*What will happen to Erasmus?
*What will our ongoing contributions and responsibilities be to the EU?
*Where will the France/UK border checks be?
*What will the rights and responsibilities of EU nationals currently resident in the UK and how will they be guaranteed?
*What will our security and policing cooperation be?
*What happens to Euratom and what are the consequences?
I could go on but if you can answer those few simple questions with references pre-dating June I'll take it at face value that you were fully informed. The thing is I know you can't and I also know we will have to have answers to those questions by the end of the process so you're going to have to argue pretty hard to convince me you won't be in possession of more critically important information in two years time than you were last June. If you're happy to be asked to make the most important political choice of your life on a gut feeling and some expensive propaganda but not in possession of complete and relevant information I really don't know what to say.
jk
Post edited at 09:06
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In reply to jkarran:
And if Big G had posed his list of questions to YOU to answer what would happen if we stayed in the EU you would have not been able to answer them , because there are so many unknowns of the future direction of the EU whether we voted to stay in, or to come out.
So you voted to remain on a gut feeling that it would be better than leaving , but you really have no more idea than anyone else.
> *What will our trading relationship with Europe be?*What will happen to Northern Ireland's border?*What will happen to Erasmus?*What will our ongoing contributions and responsibilities be to the EU?*Where will the France/UK border checks be?*What will the rights and responsibilities of EU nationals currently resident in the UK and how will they be guaranteed?*What will our security and policing cooperation be?*What happens to Euratom and what are the consequences?I could go on but if you can answer those few simple questions with references pre-dating June I'll take it at face value that you were fully informed. The thing is I know you can't and I also know we will have to have answers to those questions by the end of the process so you're going to have to argue pretty hard to convince me you won't be in possession of more critically important information in two years time than you were last June. If you're happy to be asked to make the most important political choice of your life on a gut feeling and some expensive propaganda but not in possession of complete and relevant information I really don't know what to say.
And if Big G had posed his list of questions to YOU to answer what would happen if we stayed in the EU you would have not been able to answer them , because there are so many unknowns of the future direction of the EU whether we voted to stay in, or to come out.
So you voted to remain on a gut feeling that it would be better than leaving , but you really have no more idea than anyone else.
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In reply to Big Ger:
True but that second referendum is your opportunity to gaze into the crystal ball, to be vindicated or appalled, you could have it but instead you choose to stand by a decision made in ignorance whatever the consequences. I thought this was all about taking back control, not abdicating at the crucial moment?
jk
True but that second referendum is your opportunity to gaze into the crystal ball, to be vindicated or appalled, you could have it but instead you choose to stand by a decision made in ignorance whatever the consequences. I thought this was all about taking back control, not abdicating at the crucial moment?
jk
Post edited at 09:40
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In reply to jkarran:
You can have your Brexit what will and ifs, but what will happen to the eu in the next 5, 10.. years. We don't know either. The agendas within the eu are varied to say the least. Debt ridden South, Turkey trying to blackmail the eu after being bribed, the fate of the Euro, the unwillingness of Brussels to economize its own excesses, the monthly farce of Strasbourg, the unwillingness of eastern bloc nations to play ball...
There are many unanswered questions for those remaining in the eu.
You can have your Brexit what will and ifs, but what will happen to the eu in the next 5, 10.. years. We don't know either. The agendas within the eu are varied to say the least. Debt ridden South, Turkey trying to blackmail the eu after being bribed, the fate of the Euro, the unwillingness of Brussels to economize its own excesses, the monthly farce of Strasbourg, the unwillingness of eastern bloc nations to play ball...
There are many unanswered questions for those remaining in the eu.
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In reply to Jim C:
The option to leave or alter our relationship should Europe evolve in ways that disadvantaged us always existed. That time hadn't come and frankly with our influence and power of veto it was unlikely to. I thought part of your argument for leaving was that Europe can't be changed but now you're whatabouting about Europe changing to justify leaving?
I chose to remain in the knowledge we've had a pretty good thing going on and that the alternative was very uncertain, that many of our problems for years palmed off on Europe and foreigners stem instead from our domestic political choices, that they will likely only be exacerbated by our isolation.
jk
> And if Big G had posed his list of questions to YOU to answer what would happen if we stayed in the EU you would have not been able to answer them , because there are so many unknowns of the future direction of the EU whether we voted to stay in, or to come out.
The option to leave or alter our relationship should Europe evolve in ways that disadvantaged us always existed. That time hadn't come and frankly with our influence and power of veto it was unlikely to. I thought part of your argument for leaving was that Europe can't be changed but now you're whatabouting about Europe changing to justify leaving?
> So you voted to remain on a gut feeling that it would be better than leaving , but you really have no more idea than anyone else.
I chose to remain in the knowledge we've had a pretty good thing going on and that the alternative was very uncertain, that many of our problems for years palmed off on Europe and foreigners stem instead from our domestic political choices, that they will likely only be exacerbated by our isolation.
jk
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In reply to jkarran:
There is no need, and certainly no desire for a second referendum.
You've completely outed yourself as just wanting to insult people rather than offer a debate,you're starting to sound trollish, a shame.
Nobody has "abdicated" taking back control.
> True but that second referendum is your opportunity to gaze into the crystal ball, to be vindicated or appalled, you could have it but instead you choose to stand by a decision made in ignorance whatever consequences. I thought this was all about taking back control, not abdicating at the crucial moment?jk
There is no need, and certainly no desire for a second referendum.
You've completely outed yourself as just wanting to insult people rather than offer a debate,you're starting to sound trollish, a shame.
Nobody has "abdicated" taking back control.
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In reply to Big Ger:
We'll have to agree to differ on whether you're abdicating responsibility for making a responsible choice by insisting the one made in ignorance must be adhered to despite the consequences, positive and negative that will become apparent before the process is complete.
There absolutely is a need for a decision whether we go through with this or not when we know exactly what this is and what it means for us. The only question is in whose hands should that decision rest? You wanted control... bloody well take it!
jk
We'll have to agree to differ on whether you're abdicating responsibility for making a responsible choice by insisting the one made in ignorance must be adhered to despite the consequences, positive and negative that will become apparent before the process is complete.
There absolutely is a need for a decision whether we go through with this or not when we know exactly what this is and what it means for us. The only question is in whose hands should that decision rest? You wanted control... bloody well take it!
jk
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In reply to jkarran:
IF we have another referendum on the 'deal' will the result of that vote be binding, or advisory ?
( or does it just depend on whether you like the answer or not?)
IF we have another referendum on the 'deal' will the result of that vote be binding, or advisory ?
( or does it just depend on whether you like the answer or not?)
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In reply to summo:
We don't, but the absolutely critical point is that as one of its most prominent members, we could and should have been working to make it as successful as it could possibly be. Now we just sit and watch.
> You can have your Brexit what will and ifs, but what will happen to the eu in the next 5, 10.. years. We don't know either.
We don't, but the absolutely critical point is that as one of its most prominent members, we could and should have been working to make it as successful as it could possibly be. Now we just sit and watch.
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Personally I'm a remainer who has accepted Brexit. I don't see a way to return to the relationship that we had with the EU before the vote so for that reason we have to get on with it.
But I am more bothered about the NHS for this election... however Corbyn is not my prime minister either. recently I have come round to thinking that I will vote Lib Dem again (safe Tory seat).
Personally I'm a remainer who has accepted Brexit. I don't see a way to return to the relationship that we had with the EU before the vote so for that reason we have to get on with it.
But I am more bothered about the NHS for this election... however Corbyn is not my prime minister either. recently I have come round to thinking that I will vote Lib Dem again (safe Tory seat).
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In reply to GrahamD:
Even if you are polishing a turd? At what point do you give up?
> We don't, but the absolutely critical point is that as one of its most prominent members, we could and should have been working to make it as successful as it could possibly be. Now we just sit and watch.
Even if you are polishing a turd? At what point do you give up?
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In reply to jkarran:
We'll have to agree that your insistence that only one side was able to make a fully informed decision, and foresee the future is rather banal and silly.
Can you tell me next week's lottery numbers please? You have the full evidence of all the draws which have ever been held, so you are informed.
There has been a choice made, to usurp that now would not be good for us as a country.
Again, for want of argument you resort to childish taunt, a shame. How do you suggest I take control?
> We'll have to agree to differ on whether you're abdicating responsibility for making a responsible choice by insisting the one made in ignorance must be adhered to despite the consequences, positive and negative that will become apparent before the process is complete.
We'll have to agree that your insistence that only one side was able to make a fully informed decision, and foresee the future is rather banal and silly.
Can you tell me next week's lottery numbers please? You have the full evidence of all the draws which have ever been held, so you are informed.
> There absolutely is a need for a decision whether we go through with this or not when we know exactly what this is and what it means for us.
There has been a choice made, to usurp that now would not be good for us as a country.
> The only question is in whose hands should that decision rest? You wanted control... bloody well take it!
Again, for want of argument you resort to childish taunt, a shame. How do you suggest I take control?
Post edited at 10:06
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In reply to Big Ger:
I'm not saying that, I'm saying the complete opposite, I was not able to make a better informed choice than you but I was utterly ignorant of the consequences of a leave vote, I was happily living the consequences of a remain vote.
That depends entirely on how bad the consequences of that choice turn out to be. At present we don't know but before we cross the Rubicon we will know and we have a right to decide in possession of that knowledge whether we go through with this. Yes, the whole sorry episode will be bad for the country and its people but that is true whether we go through with this or not, we accepted that when we voted for the first referendum.
LOL, that's a taunt? You take control by insisting you or your representatives have the final say over whether we should in the national interest go through with our decision to leave the EU once and only once we fully understand beyond the 'red white and blue', 'brexit means brexit' jingoistic bullshit what that actually means for our place in the world and for each of us.
jk
> We'll have to agree that your insistence that only one side was able to make a fully informed decision, and foresee the future is rather banal and silly.
I'm not saying that, I'm saying the complete opposite, I was not able to make a better informed choice than you but I was utterly ignorant of the consequences of a leave vote, I was happily living the consequences of a remain vote.
> There has been a choice made, to usurp that now would not be good for us as a country.
That depends entirely on how bad the consequences of that choice turn out to be. At present we don't know but before we cross the Rubicon we will know and we have a right to decide in possession of that knowledge whether we go through with this. Yes, the whole sorry episode will be bad for the country and its people but that is true whether we go through with this or not, we accepted that when we voted for the first referendum.
> Again, for want of argument you resort to childish taunt, a shame. How do you suggest I take control?
LOL, that's a taunt? You take control by insisting you or your representatives have the final say over whether we should in the national interest go through with our decision to leave the EU once and only once we fully understand beyond the 'red white and blue', 'brexit means brexit' jingoistic bullshit what that actually means for our place in the world and for each of us.
jk
Post edited at 10:31
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In reply to Jim C:
I'd be perfectly content with a binding decision, simple majority threshold, accept the deal or remain on existing terms. I'd be happy enough for parliament to be given a free vote on the same choice but they won't have the stomach for it.
jk
> IF we have another referendum on the 'deal' will the result of that vote be binding, or advisory ?( or does it just depend on whether you like the answer or not?)
I'd be perfectly content with a binding decision, simple majority threshold, accept the deal or remain on existing terms. I'd be happy enough for parliament to be given a free vote on the same choice but they won't have the stomach for it.
jk
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In reply to summo:
Seriously ? you think that revolutionising the way that Europe operates and cooperates after centuries of feudalism is something that gets sorted in a few short decades ? Look at the UK to realise how slow it is to change. We still choose to have bishops in our system - how crap is that ?
The EU has actually done a remarkable amount considering how young an institution it is. Of course there are faults that need sorting but none as glaring as, say, the nature of our own house of Lords or our FPTP electoral system.
> Even if you are polishing a turd? At what point do you give up?
Seriously ? you think that revolutionising the way that Europe operates and cooperates after centuries of feudalism is something that gets sorted in a few short decades ? Look at the UK to realise how slow it is to change. We still choose to have bishops in our system - how crap is that ?
The EU has actually done a remarkable amount considering how young an institution it is. Of course there are faults that need sorting but none as glaring as, say, the nature of our own house of Lords or our FPTP electoral system.
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In reply to jkarran:
Well no, we'll know the *terms* of the deal, but the *consequences* are much harder to forecast. Macro-economic predictions like that are very hard.
> That depends entirely on how bad the consequences of that choice turn out to be. At present we don't know but before we cross the Rubicon we will know ...
Well no, we'll know the *terms* of the deal, but the *consequences* are much harder to forecast. Macro-economic predictions like that are very hard.
1
In reply to jkarran:
Anyway you, me and everyone else, young and old , now have a vote , a chance to vote for a party who has committed to a second referendum, and if the Brexit deal is rejected, we remain in the EU, so you can legitimately get your second referendum by democratic means, and if that party wins you will get the vote on the Brexit deal.
If they don't win , that will be the end of the issue, the British people clearly did not want a referendum on the deal .
So to all the Lib Dems candidates , go back to your constituencies and prepare for government .
> I'd be perfectly content with a binding decision, simple majority threshold, accept the deal or remain on existing terms. I'd be happy enough for parliament to be given a free vote on the same choice but they won't have the stomach for it.jk
Anyway you, me and everyone else, young and old , now have a vote , a chance to vote for a party who has committed to a second referendum, and if the Brexit deal is rejected, we remain in the EU, so you can legitimately get your second referendum by democratic means, and if that party wins you will get the vote on the Brexit deal.
If they don't win , that will be the end of the issue, the British people clearly did not want a referendum on the deal .
So to all the Lib Dems candidates , go back to your constituencies and prepare for government .
Post edited at 10:41
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In reply to summo:
You don't give up, it has been proven that you CAN polish a turd ( Mythbusters proved it) However, there is one turd that Cameron failed to polish.
> Even if you are polishing a turd? At what point do you give up?
You don't give up, it has been proven that you CAN polish a turd ( Mythbusters proved it) However, there is one turd that Cameron failed to polish.
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In reply to icnoble:
I think that's very wrong. Have you heard him speak? I agree with almost everything he says. And he puts it across with just the right balance between considered argument and passion. The problem for him is that people aren't listening to the words - they're focussing on the face - which he can do nothing about and shouldn't matter, and the accent - which he can't do much about and certainly shouldn't matter, and the lack of "gravitas", which he might be able do something about but I actually find quite refreshing.
Martin
> The libdems are so low because they have a leader who is clueless.
I think that's very wrong. Have you heard him speak? I agree with almost everything he says. And he puts it across with just the right balance between considered argument and passion. The problem for him is that people aren't listening to the words - they're focussing on the face - which he can do nothing about and shouldn't matter, and the accent - which he can't do much about and certainly shouldn't matter, and the lack of "gravitas", which he might be able do something about but I actually find quite refreshing.
Martin
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
But economic forecasts are *much* easier to make when the terms of the exit negotiation are known, impossible when they are not.
Other items on the negotiation agenda: the rights of citizens, our ongoing costs and responsibilities, our regulatory environment, our security relationship, the nature and position of our borders... these will be hard facts not forecasts.
jk
> Well no, we'll know the *terms* of the deal, but the *consequences* are much harder to forecast. Macro-economic predictions like that are very hard.
But economic forecasts are *much* easier to make when the terms of the exit negotiation are known, impossible when they are not.
Other items on the negotiation agenda: the rights of citizens, our ongoing costs and responsibilities, our regulatory environment, our security relationship, the nature and position of our borders... these will be hard facts not forecasts.
jk
1
In reply to jkarran:
But you did not know the consequences of a remain vote. What if Le Pen and Wilders had won their elections? What if Merkel loses hers? What if Greece falls out of the EU, what if Italy goes to the wall?
Again, you're relying on a crystal ball. How do we know what will happen 1, 2 5, 10 years hence? Brexit could be the decision that saves the UK from a EU catastrophe, we do not know. Your predictions, that all will be better if we remain in the EU are about as accurate as a "Hello magazine" horoscope.
Oh, and why did you not warn us about the 2008 GFC? You are great at predicting bad things will happen.
Again, what will next weeks lottery numbers be? It's a predictive sign for depression, forecasting only bad news to come.
I've done that. I voted out.
GT.
> I'm not saying that, I'm saying the complete opposite, I was not able to make a better informed choice than you but I was utterly ignorant of the consequences of a leave vote, I was happily living the consequences of a remain vote.
But you did not know the consequences of a remain vote. What if Le Pen and Wilders had won their elections? What if Merkel loses hers? What if Greece falls out of the EU, what if Italy goes to the wall?
> That depends entirely on how bad the consequences of that choice turn out to be. At present we don't know but before we cross the Rubicon we will know and we have a right to decide in possession of that knowledge whether we go through with this.
Again, you're relying on a crystal ball. How do we know what will happen 1, 2 5, 10 years hence? Brexit could be the decision that saves the UK from a EU catastrophe, we do not know. Your predictions, that all will be better if we remain in the EU are about as accurate as a "Hello magazine" horoscope.
Oh, and why did you not warn us about the 2008 GFC? You are great at predicting bad things will happen.
> Yes, the whole sorry episode will be bad for the country and its people but that is true whether we go through with this or not, we accepted that when we voted for the first referendum.
Again, what will next weeks lottery numbers be? It's a predictive sign for depression, forecasting only bad news to come.
> You take control by insisting you or your representatives have the final say over whether we should in the national interest go through with our decision to leave the EU once and only once we fully understand beyond the 'red white and blue', 'brexit means brexit' jingoistic bullshit what that actually means for our place in the world and for each of us.
I've done that. I voted out.
GT.
Post edited at 11:09
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In reply to Big Ger:
What if what if what if... what if we just carried on as we were, doing pretty well, trading successful in what was arguably the most stable successful incarnation of Europe history has known, working to solve the problems as they arose but always maintaining our influence, power of veto and ability to leave *if and when* the need arose, not before.
No, I'm deciding I liked the world I lived in and I was happy with incremental change.
Thanks for the information but with due respect my health is none of your business.
You're bright enough to know you're willfully misrepresenting the situation.
jk
> But you did not know the consequences of a remain vote. What if Le Pen and Wilders had won their elections? What if Merkel loses hers? What if Greece falls out of the EU, what if Italy goes to the wall?
What if what if what if... what if we just carried on as we were, doing pretty well, trading successful in what was arguably the most stable successful incarnation of Europe history has known, working to solve the problems as they arose but always maintaining our influence, power of veto and ability to leave *if and when* the need arose, not before.
> Again, you're relying on a crystal ball.
No, I'm deciding I liked the world I lived in and I was happy with incremental change.
> It's a predictive sign for depression, forecasting only bad news to come.
Thanks for the information but with due respect my health is none of your business.
> I've done that. I voted out.
You're bright enough to know you're willfully misrepresenting the situation.
jk
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In reply to GrahamD:
Is bribing Turkey progress?
The eu handling of the Balkans or Crimea Good?
Greece has currently refused the measures it needs for next month's eu hand out of eu money, which will pay the interest on the loan the eu gave it?
Members nations are consistently asked to give more to eu pot, but the eu refuse to economize, in fact it expands its budget and won't bin Strasbourg because France will get up set, and if France gets up set then the eu and Euro is over.
What about hungary and it's refugee handling? Or the other eastern nations, happy to take the eu grants etc.. but won't accept anything else.
The successes would have happened anyway because of the strengths of individual nations. The question is who will pick up the pieces in a decade or so time.
> Seriously ? you think that revolutionising the way that Europe operates and cooperates after centuries of feudalism
Is bribing Turkey progress?
The eu handling of the Balkans or Crimea Good?
Greece has currently refused the measures it needs for next month's eu hand out of eu money, which will pay the interest on the loan the eu gave it?
Members nations are consistently asked to give more to eu pot, but the eu refuse to economize, in fact it expands its budget and won't bin Strasbourg because France will get up set, and if France gets up set then the eu and Euro is over.
What about hungary and it's refugee handling? Or the other eastern nations, happy to take the eu grants etc.. but won't accept anything else.
The successes would have happened anyway because of the strengths of individual nations. The question is who will pick up the pieces in a decade or so time.
Post edited at 11:23
1
In reply to summo:
No, it wouldn't. There we fundamentally disagree. Europe is strong because it is Europe, not despite of it.
> The successes would have happened anyway because of the strengths of individual nations.
No, it wouldn't. There we fundamentally disagree. Europe is strong because it is Europe, not despite of it.
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In reply to GrahamD:
Lots of trade agreements were in place, visa free travel etc... long before the euro and the waves of treaties in the past 30 years. We don't need the eu in its current scale, or cost, or even close to it to unite Europe. The only people who say this are those making a very comfortable livib g out of the taxpayers in the eu.
Can you justify Strasbourg? Why does the eu own art and wine? How long do you have be an MEP before qualifying for a life long pension and what is it worth?
No one rejected being European, only the organisation within it called the eu.
> No, it wouldn't. There we fundamentally disagree. Europe is strong because it is Europe, not despite of it.
Lots of trade agreements were in place, visa free travel etc... long before the euro and the waves of treaties in the past 30 years. We don't need the eu in its current scale, or cost, or even close to it to unite Europe. The only people who say this are those making a very comfortable livib g out of the taxpayers in the eu.
Can you justify Strasbourg? Why does the eu own art and wine? How long do you have be an MEP before qualifying for a life long pension and what is it worth?
No one rejected being European, only the organisation within it called the eu.
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In reply to icnoble:
that is a truly and monumentally clueless post
> The libdems are so low because they have a leader who is clueless.
that is a truly and monumentally clueless post
1
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
A lot of people vote by which team they support, or whoever the newspaper tells them to vote for. There's no real decision-making process going on.
> I'm puzzled. Both the Tories and Labour have pro-Brexit manifestos. They are currently adding up to 80% in the polls. The only party in England wanting to stay in the EU, the Lib Dems, are polling at a mere 8%. Why so low? Why isn't a large Remain horde rallying to their banner?
A lot of people vote by which team they support, or whoever the newspaper tells them to vote for. There's no real decision-making process going on.
In reply to summo:
Are you confusing the Euro with the EU ?
"No one rejected being European, only the organisation within it called the eu"
Err that is precisely what people did. Rather than work to make the few minor reforms the EU needs. In terms of excess the EU is a pretty light weight organisation employee wise.
Can I justify Strasbourg ? well I believe the EU is and should be democratic and as the European parliament of course I can justify it.
Are you confusing the Euro with the EU ?
"No one rejected being European, only the organisation within it called the eu"
Err that is precisely what people did. Rather than work to make the few minor reforms the EU needs. In terms of excess the EU is a pretty light weight organisation employee wise.
Can I justify Strasbourg ? well I believe the EU is and should be democratic and as the European parliament of course I can justify it.
1
1
In reply to GrahamD:
The UK pays £350m to the EU each week, which works out as less than £5.40 per UK resident. The average childs' pocket money in the UK is reportedly around £6 per week. So people talking about efficiency savings and flagrant expenditure are actually haggling over pocket money. And that's before we factor in getting around a third of our pocket money back again in rebates and receiving considerable additional sums by way of UK capital projects.
It's really quite incredible how this has been spun into a such major deal.
The UK pays £350m to the EU each week, which works out as less than £5.40 per UK resident. The average childs' pocket money in the UK is reportedly around £6 per week. So people talking about efficiency savings and flagrant expenditure are actually haggling over pocket money. And that's before we factor in getting around a third of our pocket money back again in rebates and receiving considerable additional sums by way of UK capital projects.
It's really quite incredible how this has been spun into a such major deal.
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In reply to john arran:
And thats not the running cost (as in salaries, pensions) of the EU institutions, which is what Summo seems to be getting green eyed over.
And thats not the running cost (as in salaries, pensions) of the EU institutions, which is what Summo seems to be getting green eyed over.
1
In reply to GrahamD:
You can spend one, but not the other?
You know it won't really reform.
You mean its the extra parliament that they unnecessarily move to for 1 week every month. It's a waste of building, hotels , travel..etc...
> Are you confusing the Euro with the EU
You can spend one, but not the other?
> Rather than work to make the few minor reforms the EU needs
You know it won't really reform.
> .Can I justify Strasbourg ? well I believe the EU is and should be democratic and as the European parliament of course I can justify it.
You mean its the extra parliament that they unnecessarily move to for 1 week every month. It's a waste of building, hotels , travel..etc...
2
2
In reply to GrahamD:
Strasbourg is a duplication to keep the French happy.
> And thats not the running cost (as in salaries, pensions) of the EU institutions, which is what Summo seems to be getting green eyed over.
Strasbourg is a duplication to keep the French happy.
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In reply to summo:
Most remainers would agree that the EU as an insititution needs reform. We all consider that we have become disconnected form power and the EU as an institution is a classic example of that.It is a common enough issue with politics these days.
But..here is the rub..we fundamentally disagree with leaving..we recognise the good aspects that come out. To me those far outweigh the c##p like the Strasbourg issue.
Most remainers would agree that the EU as an insititution needs reform. We all consider that we have become disconnected form power and the EU as an institution is a classic example of that.It is a common enough issue with politics these days.
But..here is the rub..we fundamentally disagree with leaving..we recognise the good aspects that come out. To me those far outweigh the c##p like the Strasbourg issue.
3
In reply to neilh:
Also I would reject the notion that it can't reform. Not overnight of course, but if the political will of the membership was directed there rather than on saboutage from some quarters it could and would.
Also I would reject the notion that it can't reform. Not overnight of course, but if the political will of the membership was directed there rather than on saboutage from some quarters it could and would.
1
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In reply to neilh:
...and , of course, we are in a far better position to change and improve the EU from within than from without. I think it is way better to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
...and , of course, we are in a far better position to change and improve the EU from within than from without. I think it is way better to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
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1
In reply to John Stainforth:
Possibly the kick up the backside we have given them may help. I am no fan of Juncker ( his speech in French was ridiculous, talki about not facing reality, he just make it worse). Lusk seems more level headed.
Possibly the kick up the backside we have given them may help. I am no fan of Juncker ( his speech in French was ridiculous, talki about not facing reality, he just make it worse). Lusk seems more level headed.
Post edited at 18:53
1
1
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In reply to jkarran:
Again, your crystal ball is only focusing on the outcome you would have wanted. It offers no guarantees, does it?
Tough titty, change is inevitable, and your blinkers do not protect you from that.
> What if what if what if... what if we just carried on as we were, doing pretty well, trading successful in what was arguably the most stable successful incarnation of Europe history has known, working to solve the problems as they arose but always maintaining our influence, power of veto and ability to leave *if and when* the need arose, not before.
Again, your crystal ball is only focusing on the outcome you would have wanted. It offers no guarantees, does it?
> No, I'm deciding I liked the world I lived in and I was happy with incremental change.
Tough titty, change is inevitable, and your blinkers do not protect you from that.
1
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In reply to John Stainforth:
Our great reformer David Cameron tried to get the smallest of concessions out of them , to save a Brexit , and failed.
It is a hopeless case for reform.
Our great reformer David Cameron tried to get the smallest of concessions out of them , to save a Brexit , and failed.
It is a hopeless case for reform.
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In reply to john arran:
multiply that by 52 and divide by say £25,000 and tell us how many Nurses that would be?
divide it by £ 40K and tell us how many doctors that would be?
divide by £70 K and tell us how many consultants that would be?
Not trivial .
> The UK pays £350m to the EU each week, which works out as less than £5.40 per UK resident. The average childs' pocket money in the UK is reportedly around £6 per week. So people talking about efficiency savings and flagrant expenditure are actually haggling over pocket money. And that's before we factor in getting around a third of our pocket money back again in rebates and receiving considerable additional sums by way of UK capital projects.It's really quite incredible how this has been spun into a such major deal.
multiply that by 52 and divide by say £25,000 and tell us how many Nurses that would be?
divide it by £ 40K and tell us how many doctors that would be?
divide by £70 K and tell us how many consultants that would be?
Not trivial .
1
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In reply to Jim C:
That sounds vaguely familiar. I think I might have read something similar on the side of a bus...
> multiply that by 52 and divide by say £25,000 and tell us how many Nurses that would be? divide it by £ 40K and tell us how many doctors that would be?divide by £70 K and tell us how many consultants that would be?Not trivial .
That sounds vaguely familiar. I think I might have read something similar on the side of a bus...
5
2
1
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In reply to Jim C:
The thing is, anyone who lives and works in the remote or economically challenged areas of the UK and is in the habit of thinking can't help but be aware that we actually get something back for that money in places where it's needed. I'm still trying to figure out why all those turkeys voted for Christmas in NE England and South Wales.
The thing is, anyone who lives and works in the remote or economically challenged areas of the UK and is in the habit of thinking can't help but be aware that we actually get something back for that money in places where it's needed. I'm still trying to figure out why all those turkeys voted for Christmas in NE England and South Wales.
5
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In reply to Footloose:
Same here.
It's plain odd that areas which need investment to boost employment keep voting Labour which prefers to bribe them with benefits.
> . I'm still trying to figure out why all those turkeys voted for Christmas in NE England and South Wales.
Same here.
It's plain odd that areas which need investment to boost employment keep voting Labour which prefers to bribe them with benefits.
2
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In reply to Footloose:
Dead easy. EU schemes funded a variety of things. infrastructure to promote new factories etc, which then failed to materialise( as the same funding was being used in eastern Europe where new factories were set up due to lower cost of labour). Or then they were used to set up leadership training courses or arts centres.
People began to see though those projects.They did produce something..but not long term stable reasonable paying jobs.
Cornwall is a classic case where EU funded schemes went to projects that went bust.
Not saying its easy. The idea is good, but there are question marks over delivery and the type of projects that got funded.
Dead easy. EU schemes funded a variety of things. infrastructure to promote new factories etc, which then failed to materialise( as the same funding was being used in eastern Europe where new factories were set up due to lower cost of labour). Or then they were used to set up leadership training courses or arts centres.
People began to see though those projects.They did produce something..but not long term stable reasonable paying jobs.
Cornwall is a classic case where EU funded schemes went to projects that went bust.
Not saying its easy. The idea is good, but there are question marks over delivery and the type of projects that got funded.
Post edited at 09:47
2
In reply to neilh:
Yes and no. I've witnessed the legacy all over the UK: navigable roads on the Ardnamurchan peninsula; world-class high-speed high-tech facilities in Teesside University; forestry workers in the Highlands; Leader-funded projects all over the UK which promoted healthy eating among schoolchildren and sought to change other critical lifestyle attitudes; projects in National Parks and on National Trails designed to attract foreign visitors... I've certainly talked to people whose jobs are now under threat without the EU funding.
Yes and no. I've witnessed the legacy all over the UK: navigable roads on the Ardnamurchan peninsula; world-class high-speed high-tech facilities in Teesside University; forestry workers in the Highlands; Leader-funded projects all over the UK which promoted healthy eating among schoolchildren and sought to change other critical lifestyle attitudes; projects in National Parks and on National Trails designed to attract foreign visitors... I've certainly talked to people whose jobs are now under threat without the EU funding.
1
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In reply to neilh:
Spot on. Cornwall is an unemployment blackspot with low wages and poor prospects. But Lo! here comes the munificent EU with lots of money to give us, (back.)
A "damning" report has found millions of pounds of European Union funding failed to create an expected 10,000 new jobs in Cornwall. Independent consultants analysed the impact of £465m of EU convergence money in the county between 2007 and 2013. The report found 3,557 jobs were created by the investment.
How much does that work out at per job?
> Dead easy. EU schemes funded a variety of things. infrastructure to promote new factories etc, which then failed to materialise
Spot on. Cornwall is an unemployment blackspot with low wages and poor prospects. But Lo! here comes the munificent EU with lots of money to give us, (back.)
A "damning" report has found millions of pounds of European Union funding failed to create an expected 10,000 new jobs in Cornwall. Independent consultants analysed the impact of £465m of EU convergence money in the county between 2007 and 2013. The report found 3,557 jobs were created by the investment.
How much does that work out at per job?
1
In reply to Coel Hellier:
It's not that puzzling is it?
People still haven't understood how tortuous the process is going to be, or how much it will cost us, so there is only limited appetite to reverse or ameliorate the process. In 2, 3, 4 years time as the process grinds on and on, (yes I know about the 2 years... we shall see) then the landscape may look rather different. After all, quite a lot of the over 60s who voted leave will have popped their clogs, and quite a lot of the young will either have become eligible to vote or motivated to do so. So there will almost certainly be a majority in favour of Remain.
SO the first priority has to be reduce the size of the stupid, vacuous, bumbling, u-turning, incompetent leaderene's forthcoming majority. I would vote tactically for just about anyone short of UKIP who has a chance of beating the Tories; realistically round here that's Labour.
It's not that puzzling is it?
People still haven't understood how tortuous the process is going to be, or how much it will cost us, so there is only limited appetite to reverse or ameliorate the process. In 2, 3, 4 years time as the process grinds on and on, (yes I know about the 2 years... we shall see) then the landscape may look rather different. After all, quite a lot of the over 60s who voted leave will have popped their clogs, and quite a lot of the young will either have become eligible to vote or motivated to do so. So there will almost certainly be a majority in favour of Remain.
SO the first priority has to be reduce the size of the stupid, vacuous, bumbling, u-turning, incompetent leaderene's forthcoming majority. I would vote tactically for just about anyone short of UKIP who has a chance of beating the Tories; realistically round here that's Labour.
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In reply to Footloose:
Yes. I have been to quite a few myself.Local people see through those. For some they produce a good income. For most they do not.After all working in a cafe in some centre on probably zero hours contract is hardly good.
And the worse thing about these schemes , they are the same throughout Europe( to keep everybody on the same level playing field).
Yes. I have been to quite a few myself.Local people see through those. For some they produce a good income. For most they do not.After all working in a cafe in some centre on probably zero hours contract is hardly good.
And the worse thing about these schemes , they are the same throughout Europe( to keep everybody on the same level playing field).
1
In reply to Footloose:
The impact of EU funding on UK deprived areas has been well covered on here. People point to Cornwall as an example of failed schemes and money wastage. I don't know much about that example but for areas that l have direct experience of - e.g. Merseyside - the effect was generally beneficial to the local area in terms of jobs created and inward investment attracted. The key thing for me was that the choice of targeted areas is based on objective criteria i.e. divergence of GDP per head from the EU average.Regeneration is not an exact science. You can build an advance factory and get no takers for instance. But from my direct experience hacking away at the pit-face I can report that the EU is (was?) a force for good in terms of regenerating the UK's deprived areas. I bet the regeneration planners in Sunderland are sitting with their heads in their hands at this very moment.
The impact of EU funding on UK deprived areas has been well covered on here. People point to Cornwall as an example of failed schemes and money wastage. I don't know much about that example but for areas that l have direct experience of - e.g. Merseyside - the effect was generally beneficial to the local area in terms of jobs created and inward investment attracted. The key thing for me was that the choice of targeted areas is based on objective criteria i.e. divergence of GDP per head from the EU average.Regeneration is not an exact science. You can build an advance factory and get no takers for instance. But from my direct experience hacking away at the pit-face I can report that the EU is (was?) a force for good in terms of regenerating the UK's deprived areas. I bet the regeneration planners in Sunderland are sitting with their heads in their hands at this very moment.
5
In reply to Pekkie:
Not to mention the enormous improvements with EU funding in roads going to and through the North West coast of Scotland - anyone who travelled there before the improvements that began in the late 80s will know what I mean
Not to mention the enormous improvements with EU funding in roads going to and through the North West coast of Scotland - anyone who travelled there before the improvements that began in the late 80s will know what I mean
Post edited at 12:37
3
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
There's hope yet ...
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/uk-general-election-polls-and-odds-...
I know they're only polls!
> SO the first priority has to be reduce the size of the stupid, vacuous, bumbling, u-turning, incompetent leaderene's forthcoming majority.
There's hope yet ...
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/uk-general-election-polls-and-odds-...
I know they're only polls!
Post edited at 13:12
In reply to Pekkie:
Having been the recipent of EU funding in my business- North /West based- you are right in respect of Merseyside. But let s be real here- Merseyside and Manchester have alot going for it.You have for example in Cheshire incredibly low unemployment. You also still have a reasonable strong manufacturing base still with aerospace , cars, pharmacuetical etc.
Regeneration in places like Sunderland and Cornwall --- is far far tougher.So I can well understand why those areas just said-- your regeneration just sucks---- waste of time--not delivering.I can well understand therefore why the NE and Cornwall rejected the EU.
Its the same in Wales. I have a collegue who owns the 200th largest buiness in Wales. Turnover £8 million and employs 80 people. Its tiny in comparison even with Merseyside.Yet its the 200th in Wales.
Having been the recipent of EU funding in my business- North /West based- you are right in respect of Merseyside. But let s be real here- Merseyside and Manchester have alot going for it.You have for example in Cheshire incredibly low unemployment. You also still have a reasonable strong manufacturing base still with aerospace , cars, pharmacuetical etc.
Regeneration in places like Sunderland and Cornwall --- is far far tougher.So I can well understand why those areas just said-- your regeneration just sucks---- waste of time--not delivering.I can well understand therefore why the NE and Cornwall rejected the EU.
Its the same in Wales. I have a collegue who owns the 200th largest buiness in Wales. Turnover £8 million and employs 80 people. Its tiny in comparison even with Merseyside.Yet its the 200th in Wales.
Post edited at 13:14
In reply to Coel Hellier:
Until recently I was going to vote Lib Dem, based mainly around remain and the worrying cuts to public services that the conservatives are pushing and will continue to do so.
I have recently found myself being repelled by Tim Farron however to the point of pulling my vote from him. Reason: his stance on gay marriage, relationships and sex. He may have had to give a politicians answer to the question to try and win some votes but we now understand his real feelings on the matter. Is it this alone which has changed my mind? No. Its his religiosity and the fact that his views can be based and therefore biased by his religious leanings. This in my mind is too US for my liking.
Its therefore between the Tories and Labour. Corbyn supported (s) the IRA whether he likes to admit to it or not (see Fallon above) and his shadow cabinet are a joke.
For me, like it or loathe it, it seems like the tories are the best of a bad bunch.
Until recently I was going to vote Lib Dem, based mainly around remain and the worrying cuts to public services that the conservatives are pushing and will continue to do so.
I have recently found myself being repelled by Tim Farron however to the point of pulling my vote from him. Reason: his stance on gay marriage, relationships and sex. He may have had to give a politicians answer to the question to try and win some votes but we now understand his real feelings on the matter. Is it this alone which has changed my mind? No. Its his religiosity and the fact that his views can be based and therefore biased by his religious leanings. This in my mind is too US for my liking.
Its therefore between the Tories and Labour. Corbyn supported (s) the IRA whether he likes to admit to it or not (see Fallon above) and his shadow cabinet are a joke.
For me, like it or loathe it, it seems like the tories are the best of a bad bunch.
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In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Vote green if you want to vote LD but don't like Tim? Surely? They are basically the same party with a different colour badge.
Vote green if you want to vote LD but don't like Tim? Surely? They are basically the same party with a different colour badge.
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In reply to LakesWinter:
I thought about doing this and I still may do if there is a candidate and after I have checked the manifesto (or rather read the highlights).
I notice that I got three dislikes to my last post which I can only assume that this is the public proclamation of support on UKC for the tories when most on here are LD or labour.
Believe me, I have thought about this long and hard and the decision hasnt been easy. I genuinely dont like the fact that the tories seem like the only realistic option for me. I cant see any possible alternative; neither a god bothering homophobe or an IRA supporting team leader with an incompetent team seem good options to me. Voting green, in my patch, would be a protest vote at best. I may as well go to the pub and not waste my time and this is when the pub is literally next door to the village hall.
I thought about doing this and I still may do if there is a candidate and after I have checked the manifesto (or rather read the highlights).
I notice that I got three dislikes to my last post which I can only assume that this is the public proclamation of support on UKC for the tories when most on here are LD or labour.
Believe me, I have thought about this long and hard and the decision hasnt been easy. I genuinely dont like the fact that the tories seem like the only realistic option for me. I cant see any possible alternative; neither a god bothering homophobe or an IRA supporting team leader with an incompetent team seem good options to me. Voting green, in my patch, would be a protest vote at best. I may as well go to the pub and not waste my time and this is when the pub is literally next door to the village hall.
Post edited at 14:42
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In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
100% agree. We have a distinct lack of good political leaders. Get what we deserve I suppose.
100% agree. We have a distinct lack of good political leaders. Get what we deserve I suppose.
In reply to LakesWinter:
I'm resident in a constituency where there would need to be a massive shift for anyone other than the current (Tory) incumbent to be returned so reluctantly have given up ideas of a tactical vote. I shall vote with my conscience and, this time at least, that means Lib Dem or Green: if I was pressed to make the decision today then probably the latter. I kind of like the idea of having a strategy for the future of our planet rather than a shopping list for the next five years...
I'm resident in a constituency where there would need to be a massive shift for anyone other than the current (Tory) incumbent to be returned so reluctantly have given up ideas of a tactical vote. I shall vote with my conscience and, this time at least, that means Lib Dem or Green: if I was pressed to make the decision today then probably the latter. I kind of like the idea of having a strategy for the future of our planet rather than a shopping list for the next five years...
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I’m a Remainer who cannot bring myself to vote Lib Dem at the GE, and there are a few reasons for this. Firstly, while the Lib Dems have ruled out going into a coalition with Labour, they haven’t ruled out going back into one with the Tories. As far as I’m concerned any pro-EU promises are right up there with their previous no-tuition-fees promises.
I’m in Nick Clegg’s constituency and from the stuff his team have piled through my door it’s very clear that he is not the MP for me. He goes on about his success in the Coalition, treats me like an idiot by repeating inaccurate soundbites about not being able to trust Labour with the economy and states that voting for him is the only way to stop Corbyn being PM. It is very apparent that he is trying to fill the pro-EU Right position left vacant by the Conservatives when they decided to go full BNP. I am surprised the Lib Dems aren’t polling better because I can’t help wondering where all the rational pro-Europe centre-rightists have disappeared to but hey-ho, perhaps they’re too terrified by the prospect of JC giving the railways back to the nation to vote anything but Tory and throw their lot in with the Nationalist nutjobs currently alienating EU leaders across the continent.
I’m voting Labour because I’m sick and tired of what’s happening to this country in terms of pretty much everything – NHS cuts, school cuts, homelessness, child poverty, the persecution of disabled people, tax breaks for big businesses, bombing Syria, cosying up to Trump, cosying up to Erdogan and various other vomit-inducing travesties. If I was in a marginal lib-dem/con seat I might reconsider, but the labour candidate was close behind Clegg 2 years ago and the conservatives were nowhere so I don’t think I’m about to accidentally gift them a seat. Also I love Corbyn because I love seeing a really decent person in politics and marvelling at how scary some people find it.
I’m a Remainer who cannot bring myself to vote Lib Dem at the GE, and there are a few reasons for this. Firstly, while the Lib Dems have ruled out going into a coalition with Labour, they haven’t ruled out going back into one with the Tories. As far as I’m concerned any pro-EU promises are right up there with their previous no-tuition-fees promises.
I’m in Nick Clegg’s constituency and from the stuff his team have piled through my door it’s very clear that he is not the MP for me. He goes on about his success in the Coalition, treats me like an idiot by repeating inaccurate soundbites about not being able to trust Labour with the economy and states that voting for him is the only way to stop Corbyn being PM. It is very apparent that he is trying to fill the pro-EU Right position left vacant by the Conservatives when they decided to go full BNP. I am surprised the Lib Dems aren’t polling better because I can’t help wondering where all the rational pro-Europe centre-rightists have disappeared to but hey-ho, perhaps they’re too terrified by the prospect of JC giving the railways back to the nation to vote anything but Tory and throw their lot in with the Nationalist nutjobs currently alienating EU leaders across the continent.
I’m voting Labour because I’m sick and tired of what’s happening to this country in terms of pretty much everything – NHS cuts, school cuts, homelessness, child poverty, the persecution of disabled people, tax breaks for big businesses, bombing Syria, cosying up to Trump, cosying up to Erdogan and various other vomit-inducing travesties. If I was in a marginal lib-dem/con seat I might reconsider, but the labour candidate was close behind Clegg 2 years ago and the conservatives were nowhere so I don’t think I’m about to accidentally gift them a seat. Also I love Corbyn because I love seeing a really decent person in politics and marvelling at how scary some people find it.
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In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
I don't know how extreme or how strongly held Tim farrons true views on gay marriage etc are, but his voting record on gay rights is marginally more progressive than Theresa mays voting record.
I don't know how extreme or how strongly held Tim farrons true views on gay marriage etc are, but his voting record on gay rights is marginally more progressive than Theresa mays voting record.
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In reply to neilh:
I know you mean the main parties but I actually think Caroline Lucas is an excellent politician and has been for some time. Why the greens chose Natalie Bennett for some time, I've no idea
I know you mean the main parties but I actually think Caroline Lucas is an excellent politician and has been for some time. Why the greens chose Natalie Bennett for some time, I've no idea
In reply to stevieb:
I can imagine the daughter of a vicar would hold conservative views although I cant remember her ever being asked directly. What grinds my gears is when someone is asked a direct question many times i.e. Farron/Corbyn/Howard and either doenst answer or answers falsely for political reasons. Added to the this that I dont wish church and state to be intertwined in any way and Fallon loses my vote.
> I don't know how extreme or how strongly held Tim farrons true views on gay marriage etc are, but his voting record on gay rights is marginally more progressive than Theresa mays voting record.
I can imagine the daughter of a vicar would hold conservative views although I cant remember her ever being asked directly. What grinds my gears is when someone is asked a direct question many times i.e. Farron/Corbyn/Howard and either doenst answer or answers falsely for political reasons. Added to the this that I dont wish church and state to be intertwined in any way and Fallon loses my vote.
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In reply to stevieb:
I happen to agree and personally I quite like her. She may well get my vote yet.
> I know you mean the main parties but I actually think Caroline Lucas is an excellent politician and has been for some time. Why the greens chose Natalie Bennett for some time, I've no idea
I happen to agree and personally I quite like her. She may well get my vote yet.
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
If that is your reason for disliking Fallon, isn't May worse? She is actively promoting new faith schools and increasing their ability to apply religious discrimination in admissions. Isn't that letting her personal religion influence her policies?
> No. Its his religiosity and the fact that his views can be based and therefore biased by his religious leanings. This in my mind is too US for my liking.
> For me, like it or loathe it, it seems like the tories are the best of a bad bunch.
If that is your reason for disliking Fallon, isn't May worse? She is actively promoting new faith schools and increasing their ability to apply religious discrimination in admissions. Isn't that letting her personal religion influence her policies?
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In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
Sounds to me like you're looking for lots of justification for not voting for anyone other candidate, while ignoring the many compelling reasons not to vote for May.
Sounds to me like you're looking for lots of justification for not voting for anyone other candidate, while ignoring the many compelling reasons not to vote for May.
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In reply to Coel Hellier:
I didnt know that which now makes it more confusing. I deplore faith schools, they only fuel the type of shite we saw earlier this week.
Greens for me it is then.
I think l may be whats called a floating voter.
I didnt know that which now makes it more confusing. I deplore faith schools, they only fuel the type of shite we saw earlier this week.
Greens for me it is then.
I think l may be whats called a floating voter.
Post edited at 19:34
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:
I have the impression there's a confusion here between Farron and Fallon.
I have the impression there's a confusion here between Farron and Fallon.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Back to manifestos... one of these WILL be the winner in our FPTP system
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/26/conservative-labour-tax-sp...
There is clearly no real incentive to even try a little bit harder to get somthing both workable and costed (unlike a viable Lib Dem manifesto). From the polls, votors have clearly given up on facts and evidence and rely on tribalism and petty insult.
Back to manifestos... one of these WILL be the winner in our FPTP system
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/may/26/conservative-labour-tax-sp...
There is clearly no real incentive to even try a little bit harder to get somthing both workable and costed (unlike a viable Lib Dem manifesto). From the polls, votors have clearly given up on facts and evidence and rely on tribalism and petty insult.
Post edited at 15:57
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