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Hi,
Just wondering, is the grading at Shorn Cliff softer than other crags in the lower wye valley or I have just got better?
I've been climbing HVS at Shorn Cliff without a problem, but last year felt like I was at my limit at VS at other locations....
Just wondering, is the grading at Shorn Cliff softer than other crags in the lower wye valley or I have just got better?
I've been climbing HVS at Shorn Cliff without a problem, but last year felt like I was at my limit at VS at other locations....
In reply to springfall2008:
I haven't climbed there for a few years now but I remember thinking that the grading for climbs like No Musketeers and Laughing Cavaliers was about spot on at HVS 5a
As an aside I remember seeing and hearing a magnificent Wye Bore from the latter, it must have been a high Spring tide. I was too busy concentrating on the climbing to take a photo!
I haven't climbed there for a few years now but I remember thinking that the grading for climbs like No Musketeers and Laughing Cavaliers was about spot on at HVS 5a
As an aside I remember seeing and hearing a magnificent Wye Bore from the latter, it must have been a high Spring tide. I was too busy concentrating on the climbing to take a photo!
In reply to springfall2008:
Every route at Shorn Cliff is over-graded with the exception of Tigers Don't Cry which is undergraded
Al
Every route at Shorn Cliff is over-graded with the exception of Tigers Don't Cry which is undergraded
Al
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In reply to springfall2008:
I'm not sure which is right, but I found that leading shorn cliff vs puts you at about the right level for wyndcliff severes.
I'm not sure which is right, but I found that leading shorn cliff vs puts you at about the right level for wyndcliff severes.
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In reply to springfall2008:
The grading is a little soft, perhaps half a grade, but consistent along the crag.
Apart from the aforementioned Tigers Don't Cry.
The grading is a little soft, perhaps half a grade, but consistent along the crag.
Apart from the aforementioned Tigers Don't Cry.
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In reply to springfall2008:
The slabs are not undergraded, they are just at the bottom of their grade. Tigers Don't Cry and another burly HVS crack who's name I forget are at the top of the HVS grade. They pretty much span the HVS grade.
The slabs are not undergraded, they are just at the bottom of their grade. Tigers Don't Cry and another burly HVS crack who's name I forget are at the top of the HVS grade. They pretty much span the HVS grade.
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In reply to springfall2008:
Did some of these recently and while I found some of the routes low in the grade, the question I ashed myself was would I be prepared to give this HVS a VS rating, I concluded I wouldn't.
Did some of these recently and while I found some of the routes low in the grade, the question I ashed myself was would I be prepared to give this HVS a VS rating, I concluded I wouldn't.
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In reply to davidbeynon:
I've lead Wyndcliff VS and some of the them are hard going (e.g. Fibre)
> I'm not sure which is right, but I found that leading shorn cliff vs puts you at about the right level for wyndcliff severes.
I've lead Wyndcliff VS and some of the them are hard going (e.g. Fibre)
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In reply to springfall2008:
Never sure if it is entirely down to my liking for slabs, but for sure Shorn Cliff does feel soft. Mostly, as said above, climbs feel bottom of the grade, rather than the wrong grade.
The Laughing Cavaliers (HVS 5a) is probably VS, the other Great Central Cave HVSs are soft but creep into HVS IMO. Never done Tigers, not sure if the other burly crack referred to by Graham D above might be Organ Grinder (HVS 5a) - I found that straightforward, low/mid HVS.
Never sure if it is entirely down to my liking for slabs, but for sure Shorn Cliff does feel soft. Mostly, as said above, climbs feel bottom of the grade, rather than the wrong grade.
The Laughing Cavaliers (HVS 5a) is probably VS, the other Great Central Cave HVSs are soft but creep into HVS IMO. Never done Tigers, not sure if the other burly crack referred to by Graham D above might be Organ Grinder (HVS 5a) - I found that straightforward, low/mid HVS.
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In reply to The Ivanator:
It was Organ Grinder I was thinking of. May have been having a bad day that day then !
It was Organ Grinder I was thinking of. May have been having a bad day that day then !
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In reply to springfall2008:
The environmental features of this crag do help to make climbers feel more comfortable.
It has relatively small buttresses (measured from side to side), and trees all around.
Together with runner placements that are both normally easy to identify and what I can only describe as (generally) bomber does remove some of the stress from climbers.
The environmental features of this crag do help to make climbers feel more comfortable.
It has relatively small buttresses (measured from side to side), and trees all around.
Together with runner placements that are both normally easy to identify and what I can only describe as (generally) bomber does remove some of the stress from climbers.
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In reply to springfall2008:
Like people say above, the easy angle and incut pockets make a lot of routes seem easy.
Most of the Great Slab HVS's are about right but there are some very soft E1' in the wings.
I was surprised to see Organ Grinder go up to HVS, same for Treason and Renaissance up to E1 because they are pretty easy.
I often used to push my grade there But I always struggled on Tigers and War of the Worlds!
Like people say above, the easy angle and incut pockets make a lot of routes seem easy.
Most of the Great Slab HVS's are about right but there are some very soft E1' in the wings.
I was surprised to see Organ Grinder go up to HVS, same for Treason and Renaissance up to E1 because they are pretty easy.
I often used to push my grade there But I always struggled on Tigers and War of the Worlds!
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In reply to GridNorth:
I did Tigers Don't Cry as a warm up when it was wet. It wasn't quite what I expected......
> Every route at Shorn Cliff is over-graded with the exception of Tigers Don't Cry which is undergraded Al
I did Tigers Don't Cry as a warm up when it was wet. It wasn't quite what I expected......
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In reply to springfall2008:
I think the Shorn Cliff grading is pretty spot on to be honest. With regard to other crags in the area, the HS's at Wintours can feel harder and pretty desperate compared to the HVS at Shorn Cliff just due to how frigging polished they are. It's like trying to climb ice with your hands at times (minus the cold).
But if you climb the Fly Wall at Wintours, there are some excellent climbs at VS/HVS which I would say were comparable in feel and grade to Shorn Cliff. The Split and Flies Rise in particular are great climbs.
I think the Shorn Cliff grading is pretty spot on to be honest. With regard to other crags in the area, the HS's at Wintours can feel harder and pretty desperate compared to the HVS at Shorn Cliff just due to how frigging polished they are. It's like trying to climb ice with your hands at times (minus the cold).
But if you climb the Fly Wall at Wintours, there are some excellent climbs at VS/HVS which I would say were comparable in feel and grade to Shorn Cliff. The Split and Flies Rise in particular are great climbs.
Post edited at 12:00
In reply to neilwiltshire:
Interesting, I'm a bit nervous of the Flywall as Freedom is scary polished, I fell off Swatter and the other VS's are certainly no pushover for the grade. Perhaps I might return to Wyndcliff for some HVS action later in the year and see how that matches up
> I think the Shorn Cliff grading is pretty spot on to be honest. With regard to other crags in the area, the HS's at Wintours can feel harder and pretty desperate compared to the HVS at Shorn Cliff just due to how frigging polished they are. It's like trying to climb ice with your hands at times (minus the cold).But if you climb the Fly Wall at Wintours, there are some excellent climbs at VS/HVS which I would say were comparable in feel and grade to Shorn Cliff. The Split and Flies Rise in particular are great climbs.
Interesting, I'm a bit nervous of the Flywall as Freedom is scary polished, I fell off Swatter and the other VS's are certainly no pushover for the grade. Perhaps I might return to Wyndcliff for some HVS action later in the year and see how that matches up
In reply to GridNorth:
That's because it's totally polished. Probably right at HVS around 50 year ago.
> Every route at Shorn Cliff is over-graded with the exception of Tigers Don't Cry which is undergraded Al
That's because it's totally polished. Probably right at HVS around 50 year ago.
In reply to springfall2008:
Sinew (HVS 5a) & Klute (HVS 5a) are IMO no harder than some of the VS climbs at Wyndcliff (such as Fibre that you mentioned above). Good routes with good gear, get on them.
Sinew (HVS 5a) & Klute (HVS 5a) are IMO no harder than some of the VS climbs at Wyndcliff (such as Fibre that you mentioned above). Good routes with good gear, get on them.
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In reply to Steve Perry:
I have to disagree. I climbed at Shorn Cliff not long after the place had been discovered and found it hard at the time in comparison to other routes. We could argue forever about VS/HVS but personally some of the easiest E1/E2 routes I have ever done are at Shorn Cliff and I thought TDC harder than most of those.
Al
I have to disagree. I climbed at Shorn Cliff not long after the place had been discovered and found it hard at the time in comparison to other routes. We could argue forever about VS/HVS but personally some of the easiest E1/E2 routes I have ever done are at Shorn Cliff and I thought TDC harder than most of those.
Al
In reply to springfall2008:
Lots of the routes are easy for the grade, though I suspect if fallen on, they might become more serious.
Take the tick, enjoy they climbs.
Lots of the routes are easy for the grade, though I suspect if fallen on, they might become more serious.
Take the tick, enjoy they climbs.
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In reply to springfall2008:
True, there's quite a few routes at Shorn Cliff which sit low in the grade, but I think some of the posters above are overstating it; to assume all SC routes (except Tigers) are soft touch is to set oneself up for disappointment!
VS: I've seen people struggle on the start of One Less White Oliver (VS 4c), from which an awkward ground fall is a possibility. Also, I repeated this the other day Jug? What Jug?! (HVS 5a) and thought it was if anything, high in the grade. And this War of the Worlds (HVS 4c) is mid-grade at least, with quite a bold finish.
HVS: please don't underestimate this grade at this crag as a default setting; there are more serious undertakings here than the likes of The Laughing Cavaliers (HVS 5a). For example, Loss Of Innocence (HVS 5a) is right at the top end of HVS and there's a good case for upgrading to E1, IMO.
Stay safe
True, there's quite a few routes at Shorn Cliff which sit low in the grade, but I think some of the posters above are overstating it; to assume all SC routes (except Tigers) are soft touch is to set oneself up for disappointment!
VS: I've seen people struggle on the start of One Less White Oliver (VS 4c), from which an awkward ground fall is a possibility. Also, I repeated this the other day Jug? What Jug?! (HVS 5a) and thought it was if anything, high in the grade. And this War of the Worlds (HVS 4c) is mid-grade at least, with quite a bold finish.
HVS: please don't underestimate this grade at this crag as a default setting; there are more serious undertakings here than the likes of The Laughing Cavaliers (HVS 5a). For example, Loss Of Innocence (HVS 5a) is right at the top end of HVS and there's a good case for upgrading to E1, IMO.
Stay safe
Post edited at 10:40
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In reply to bpmclimb:
Thanks for the feedback.
One Less White Oliver (VS 4c) indeed had a difficult start, although I managed to protect it with a Tricam
What do you think of Bubble Memory (HVS 5a), is it really that runout?
Thanks for the feedback.
One Less White Oliver (VS 4c) indeed had a difficult start, although I managed to protect it with a Tricam
What do you think of Bubble Memory (HVS 5a), is it really that runout?
In reply to springfall2008:
Only climbed that once, about 10 years ago, so the details are hazy. FWIW I vaguely remember it being somewhat bold high up, but not particularly hard. Had I found it super-scary I would have mentioned it in my notes.
P.S I've had this plan for a while to blow the dust off the tricams, and start using them again - I keep forgetting to pack them, though
> What do you think of Bubble Memory (HVS 5a), is it really that runout?
Only climbed that once, about 10 years ago, so the details are hazy. FWIW I vaguely remember it being somewhat bold high up, but not particularly hard. Had I found it super-scary I would have mentioned it in my notes.
P.S I've had this plan for a while to blow the dust off the tricams, and start using them again - I keep forgetting to pack them, though
Post edited at 16:39
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In reply to bpmclimb:
I ordered a set of four of them mainly for pockets, I must admit I haven't used them that often but when they work and nothing else fits it's nice (One Less White Nigger being a case in point).
> P.S I've had this plan for a while to blow the dust off the tricams, and start using them again - I keep forgetting to pack them, though
I ordered a set of four of them mainly for pockets, I must admit I haven't used them that often but when they work and nothing else fits it's nice (One Less White Nigger being a case in point).
In reply to bpmclimb:
Bit run out from half height to 3/4 height, but as Brian says not super scary. Pretty sure you can weave a little and fiddle something in to ease the runout.
Bit run out from half height to 3/4 height, but as Brian says not super scary. Pretty sure you can weave a little and fiddle something in to ease the runout.
In reply to springfall2008:
Having climbed every single HVS at Shorn cliff (unwisely) ... I would suggest there are a few soft touches, but there are a few total sandbags! I would say most of tHe HVS routes are towards the bottom half of the grade..but not all, there are certainly a few that I think would give your average HVS leader a very healthy challenge
Having climbed every single HVS at Shorn cliff (unwisely) ... I would suggest there are a few soft touches, but there are a few total sandbags! I would say most of tHe HVS routes are towards the bottom half of the grade..but not all, there are certainly a few that I think would give your average HVS leader a very healthy challenge
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In reply to Kemics:
I was curious to see if I was anywhere near 100% with the HVSs (I'm not - missing about 8 or so), so I had a look in the logbooks. Actually, to keep up the 100% record, you'll need 2 more recent additions:
Destroy the Tories (HVS 5a)
Three Bananas (E1 5a)
.... which I haven't done yet, either. The first is quite good .... apparently
Have you done these older ones? You don't appear to have logged them (although when I post the links some have a double entry in the drop-down menu, so I may have missed something).
Edge Game (HVS 5a)
Streaker (HVS 5a)
Che Guevara (HVS 5a)
Blanc Wall (HVS 5a)
As you can see, I have some time on my hands today
I was curious to see if I was anywhere near 100% with the HVSs (I'm not - missing about 8 or so), so I had a look in the logbooks. Actually, to keep up the 100% record, you'll need 2 more recent additions:
Destroy the Tories (HVS 5a)
Three Bananas (E1 5a)
.... which I haven't done yet, either. The first is quite good .... apparently
Have you done these older ones? You don't appear to have logged them (although when I post the links some have a double entry in the drop-down menu, so I may have missed something).
Edge Game (HVS 5a)
Streaker (HVS 5a)
Che Guevara (HVS 5a)
Blanc Wall (HVS 5a)
As you can see, I have some time on my hands today
In reply to bpmclimb:
We tried to do it as an "in a day" challenge...it broke us
We did all the HVS routes in the Wye valley CC guide. A few had fallen down and so no longer existed (one fell done while we climbed it..or rather a fridge freeze sized block fell off...excitement was had) a few had also been completely reclaimed by ivy and no rock was visible. But as long as the rock was there we climbed it.
Most zero star routes deserved that. But gorillas garden (I think) stood out as fun which required bridging between the crag and a tree as the original route!
We tried to do it as an "in a day" challenge...it broke us
We did all the HVS routes in the Wye valley CC guide. A few had fallen down and so no longer existed (one fell done while we climbed it..or rather a fridge freeze sized block fell off...excitement was had) a few had also been completely reclaimed by ivy and no rock was visible. But as long as the rock was there we climbed it.
Most zero star routes deserved that. But gorillas garden (I think) stood out as fun which required bridging between the crag and a tree as the original route!
In reply to springfall2008:
Laughing Cavaliers is one of my favourite routes. Yes, it's a pretty soft HVS for everyone except the unlucky climber who eventually pulls off the large semi-detached flake near the top of the route which I suspect most people use as an undercut and for gear to protect one of the crux moves.
Martin
Laughing Cavaliers is one of my favourite routes. Yes, it's a pretty soft HVS for everyone except the unlucky climber who eventually pulls off the large semi-detached flake near the top of the route which I suspect most people use as an undercut and for gear to protect one of the crux moves.
Martin
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In reply to Martin Hore:
How should one read the grade votes on UKC, Laughing Cavaliers has around 60% of people voting mid HVS and around 30% voting low HVS so does that make it somewhere between Low and Mid HVS?
In contrast Bitter Battle Tears has 76% mid HVS and 18% low HVS.
How should one read the grade votes on UKC, Laughing Cavaliers has around 60% of people voting mid HVS and around 30% voting low HVS so does that make it somewhere between Low and Mid HVS?
In contrast Bitter Battle Tears has 76% mid HVS and 18% low HVS.
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In reply to springfall2008:
Maybe for the people voting it as a mid HVS, it is one of their first HVS routes, and so either don't know it's low or don't want to admit it's low?
It was my first HVS and I'd say it's way easier than some of the Wyndcliff VS routes.
HVS is a great grade though, lots of variety, and if you're an arms only poor feet burly chap who just hauls themselves up routes, anything in Great Central Cave Area is going to be more challenging.
Maybe for the people voting it as a mid HVS, it is one of their first HVS routes, and so either don't know it's low or don't want to admit it's low?
It was my first HVS and I'd say it's way easier than some of the Wyndcliff VS routes.
HVS is a great grade though, lots of variety, and if you're an arms only poor feet burly chap who just hauls themselves up routes, anything in Great Central Cave Area is going to be more challenging.
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In reply to springfall2008:
I would say that the grades are 'friendly' but it is the only place I have ever seen anyone hit the ground from a decent height. Twice, luckily both on the stretch of the rope so only winded and a tad wobbly.
I would say that the grades are 'friendly' but it is the only place I have ever seen anyone hit the ground from a decent height. Twice, luckily both on the stretch of the rope so only winded and a tad wobbly.
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In reply to springfall2008:
With a very large pinch of salt, in my opinion! There's a strong tendency to vote for the existing grade, especially where the UKC grade is the same as that in the guidebook. Also, votes from people who have too little experience of the grade to tell aren't factored out. Moreover, the voting system itself is flawed (as discussed at length in other threads): since there are insufficient bands allowed either side of the given grade, rogue grades usually don't appear as such.
> How should one read the grade votes on UKC
With a very large pinch of salt, in my opinion! There's a strong tendency to vote for the existing grade, especially where the UKC grade is the same as that in the guidebook. Also, votes from people who have too little experience of the grade to tell aren't factored out. Moreover, the voting system itself is flawed (as discussed at length in other threads): since there are insufficient bands allowed either side of the given grade, rogue grades usually don't appear as such.
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