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Rule 169
Do not hold up a long queue of traffic, especially if you are driving a large or slow-moving vehicle. Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass.
Before I get lynched let me stress I am a cyclist and have been for decades. However, there has been a ton of POV video footage recently of cyclists getting cut up by impatient motorists where the cyclists have staked their place on the road and are ' holding their lane as the Highway Code tells them' they can. Fair enough, but what about Rule 169?
Surely that also applies to cyclists.
Before I feel the rope around my neck I must stress I'm not condoning psycho drivers.
This came to mind today though because I live in a very remote area on the edge of the Black Mountains with single track roads and when I was driving back home I followed a group of 7 road cyclists who took up the whole road (actually irrelevant though as it would not have been safe to pass a single cyclist riding at the edge of the road) for nearly 4 miles and they barely touched 10mph. They never looked back at me but just talked amongst themselves. I can't believe a group of cyclists could be so arrogant to assume they have total ownership of the road. If I was a nutter I'd have been honking my horn and revving my engine and they would have been posting self righteous videos on Bikeradar. Now, let the murderous outrage begin.
Post edited at 23:40
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In reply to blackmountainbiker:
I cannot comment on your specific incident, but the important point is "when safe to do so". Of course some cyclists are inconsiderate or have poor judgement, they are human.
I cannot comment on your specific incident, but the important point is "when safe to do so". Of course some cyclists are inconsiderate or have poor judgement, they are human.
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In reply to blackmountainbiker:
4 miles at less than 10 mph? So you were sitting behind them for maybe 30 minutes? You must have the patience of a saint! I think after 10 minutes a little friendly honking would have been justified.
4 miles at less than 10 mph? So you were sitting behind them for maybe 30 minutes? You must have the patience of a saint! I think after 10 minutes a little friendly honking would have been justified.
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In reply to AndyC:
My wife said I have been a bit 'creative' with timings etc but agrees we were behind them for over 20 minutes. I kept thinking that surely they will pull over. It is not uncommon to drive for miles and not meet another car. Eventually we got to our drive. They would have to have pulled to the side and stopped or done a brief track stand to let us past which is why they didn't want to I guess.
My wife said I have been a bit 'creative' with timings etc but agrees we were behind them for over 20 minutes. I kept thinking that surely they will pull over. It is not uncommon to drive for miles and not meet another car. Eventually we got to our drive. They would have to have pulled to the side and stopped or done a brief track stand to let us past which is why they didn't want to I guess.
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In reply to blackmountainbiker:
I'm struggling to understand what exactly you think they should have done, as you already stated it wasn't safe to pass even a single cyclist ?
Can you advise of your preferred action they should have taken?
I'm struggling to understand what exactly you think they should have done, as you already stated it wasn't safe to pass even a single cyclist ?
Can you advise of your preferred action they should have taken?
Post edited at 08:53
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In reply to Dark-Cloud:
I'm guessing that the OP is alluding to this part of rule 169: "Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass"
> I'm struggling to understand what exactly you think they should have done, as you already stated it wasn't safe to pass even a single cyclist ? Can you advise of your preferred action they should have taken?
I'm guessing that the OP is alluding to this part of rule 169: "Check your mirrors frequently, and if necessary, pull in where it is safe and let traffic pass"
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In reply to Andy Hardy:
So they probably assessed it and decided it wasn't safe or necessary........
So they probably assessed it and decided it wasn't safe or necessary........
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In reply to Dark-Cloud:
Wasn't safe: There are very, very few roads where a cyclist can not get of the road and allow a vehicle to pass safely. Of those, very few remain like that for 4 miles.
Wasn't necessary: The cyclists would just be plain wrong then. Making a very bad decision does not justify their behaviour as you seem to think.
If I am holding up a vehicle on my bike the first thing I do is look over my shoulder to let the vehicle know I am aware of their presence. If I know there's isn't going to be a safe overtaking opportunity for some minutes I'll make my way off the road. I don't want a vehicle stuck behind me any more than they want to be stuck there.
> So they probably assessed it and decided it wasn't safe or necessary........
Wasn't safe: There are very, very few roads where a cyclist can not get of the road and allow a vehicle to pass safely. Of those, very few remain like that for 4 miles.
Wasn't necessary: The cyclists would just be plain wrong then. Making a very bad decision does not justify their behaviour as you seem to think.
If I am holding up a vehicle on my bike the first thing I do is look over my shoulder to let the vehicle know I am aware of their presence. If I know there's isn't going to be a safe overtaking opportunity for some minutes I'll make my way off the road. I don't want a vehicle stuck behind me any more than they want to be stuck there.
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In reply to wintertree:
Well so would I but you weren't there and neither was I so it's all pretty much academic then isn't it, I was merely guessing, as are you.
Well so would I but you weren't there and neither was I so it's all pretty much academic then isn't it, I was merely guessing, as are you.
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In reply to blackmountainbiker:
I also find as an occasional cyclist that the opposite is sometimes the case, i.e. the motorist who overtook you is very slow to take advantage of the traffic environment to move from the next junction. Such motorists overtake you and then move into the side at the junction so that you cannot get past. They often seem to be driving a Kia nebulous or Ford bland, and as soon as they have overtaken me I can see what is the likely next scenario, of me having to stop, when I would have been able to keep going if I had not been overtaken.
Likewise it is annoying to be trailed by a car when there is sufficient room for them to overtake you. Some people seem to need a four lane highway to get by.
I agree with you about arrogant cyclists though.
I also find as an occasional cyclist that the opposite is sometimes the case, i.e. the motorist who overtook you is very slow to take advantage of the traffic environment to move from the next junction. Such motorists overtake you and then move into the side at the junction so that you cannot get past. They often seem to be driving a Kia nebulous or Ford bland, and as soon as they have overtaken me I can see what is the likely next scenario, of me having to stop, when I would have been able to keep going if I had not been overtaken.
Likewise it is annoying to be trailed by a car when there is sufficient room for them to overtake you. Some people seem to need a four lane highway to get by.
I agree with you about arrogant cyclists though.
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In reply to Dark-Cloud:
Bottom line - a bunch of arrogant t**ts stole 30 minutes of the poor guy's life! A normal person would have pulled over to the side and waved him through with a smile. That's the way we do it on the narrow lanes in Devon.
> Can you advise of your preferred action they should have taken?
Bottom line - a bunch of arrogant t**ts stole 30 minutes of the poor guy's life! A normal person would have pulled over to the side and waved him through with a smile. That's the way we do it on the narrow lanes in Devon.
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In reply to Dark-Cloud:
What? If I am cycling along the lanes and going slowish up hill, I pull into a passing place, trackstand and let the vehicle through. Isn't that an obvious course of action? Track stand is optional, you can always put your foot down.
What? If I am cycling along the lanes and going slowish up hill, I pull into a passing place, trackstand and let the vehicle through. Isn't that an obvious course of action? Track stand is optional, you can always put your foot down.
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In reply to wintertree:
You are right. Whilst it is generally not safe to pass on my local roads if a cyclist is moving, there are plenty of short - car, car and a half length - passing places which allow you to get by quickly if the cyclist is not moving. Why they were happy to have a vehicle chugging behind them is beyond me.
You are right. Whilst it is generally not safe to pass on my local roads if a cyclist is moving, there are plenty of short - car, car and a half length - passing places which allow you to get by quickly if the cyclist is not moving. Why they were happy to have a vehicle chugging behind them is beyond me.
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In reply to blackmountainbiker:
You are not making any sense, there was 7 of them, you already said it wasn't even safe to pass a single cyclist, you then say you were unnacurate in your timings.
So long and short of it is you were stuck behind 7 guys minding their own business for an undetermined amount of time on a road none of us know and couldn't pass them and are angry because all 7 of them should have stopped and done a track stand to let you through ?
Sounds like you need to chill.
You are not making any sense, there was 7 of them, you already said it wasn't even safe to pass a single cyclist, you then say you were unnacurate in your timings.
So long and short of it is you were stuck behind 7 guys minding their own business for an undetermined amount of time on a road none of us know and couldn't pass them and are angry because all 7 of them should have stopped and done a track stand to let you through ?
Sounds like you need to chill.
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In reply to Dark-Cloud:
So long and short of it is you were stuck behind 7 guys minding their own business for an undetermined amount of time on a road none of us know and couldn't pass them and are angry because all 7 of them should have stopped and done a track stand to let you through ?
Now you put it like that, yes!
So long and short of it is you were stuck behind 7 guys minding their own business for an undetermined amount of time on a road none of us know and couldn't pass them and are angry because all 7 of them should have stopped and done a track stand to let you through ?
Now you put it like that, yes!
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In reply to blackmountainbiker:
Personally, I'd have pulled in (and my club does) when the opportunity presents. On the other hand, I've lost count of the number of times when I've pulled in, done a track stand, waved someone past and they show not the slightest acknowledgement - it does rather make you wonder why you bothered.
What then happens is that the car that's just passed you meets another car and they f.... around trying to get past each other and hold the cyclists up.
It's a bit like cars in London squeezing past cyclists to get to the next set of traffic lights first. And repeat.
Still, it could have been worse. It could have been a tractor and then who would have railed at?
Personally, I'd have pulled in (and my club does) when the opportunity presents. On the other hand, I've lost count of the number of times when I've pulled in, done a track stand, waved someone past and they show not the slightest acknowledgement - it does rather make you wonder why you bothered.
What then happens is that the car that's just passed you meets another car and they f.... around trying to get past each other and hold the cyclists up.
It's a bit like cars in London squeezing past cyclists to get to the next set of traffic lights first. And repeat.
Still, it could have been worse. It could have been a tractor and then who would have railed at?
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In reply to Dark-Cloud:
Rubbish. The passing places are fine for cyclists, or cars, not moving. I was, as my wife corrected me, held up for over 20 minutes and the fact that I waited patiently I think indicates I don't need to chill.
Rubbish. The passing places are fine for cyclists, or cars, not moving. I was, as my wife corrected me, held up for over 20 minutes and the fact that I waited patiently I think indicates I don't need to chill.
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In reply to blackmountainbiker:
What's rubbish ? The fact that you are confused about your own post ?
You never mentioned passing places until now. If there were plenty then they should have let you pass, was there no other cars behind you ?
What's rubbish ? The fact that you are confused about your own post ?
You never mentioned passing places until now. If there were plenty then they should have let you pass, was there no other cars behind you ?
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In reply to blackmountainbiker:
I was slightly inconvenienced by two cyclists this morning. They were both doing 10mph. The front one was aware I was there. The back one seemed very inexperienced.
Every time we came to a straight bit of lane and I could see it was safe to overtake, the front cyclist would wave me through, at which point the back cyclist moved out to the middle of the road to ride two abreast.
I wasn't in any hurry and it actually made me laugh. The guy tailgating me wasn't so impressed.
I was slightly inconvenienced by two cyclists this morning. They were both doing 10mph. The front one was aware I was there. The back one seemed very inexperienced.
Every time we came to a straight bit of lane and I could see it was safe to overtake, the front cyclist would wave me through, at which point the back cyclist moved out to the middle of the road to ride two abreast.
I wasn't in any hurry and it actually made me laugh. The guy tailgating me wasn't so impressed.
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In reply to Dark-Cloud:
It is the norm for single track roads to have passing places, so most of us assumed that to be the case.
Perhaps you should have considered the situation that was being described more carefully before replying.
It is the norm for single track roads to have passing places, so most of us assumed that to be the case.
Perhaps you should have considered the situation that was being described more carefully before replying.
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In reply to blackmountainbiker:
Well rule 169 mentions a long queue of traffic, was this the case?
I do sympathise with you, I eventually left a cycling club due to what I thought was poor road etiquette by the club. I am curious by the speed you mention 10 mpg?? That is very slow, were they struggling uphill? If so, stopping on a steep hill can mean it's very hard to start off again? On the other hand may be they were just inconsiderate, I have been blocked by slower cyclists even whilst on my bike.
Well rule 169 mentions a long queue of traffic, was this the case?
I do sympathise with you, I eventually left a cycling club due to what I thought was poor road etiquette by the club. I am curious by the speed you mention 10 mpg?? That is very slow, were they struggling uphill? If so, stopping on a steep hill can mean it's very hard to start off again? On the other hand may be they were just inconsiderate, I have been blocked by slower cyclists even whilst on my bike.
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In reply to veteye:
Thanks for setting me straight, I shall do as you suggest and assume every possible road layout in future, that wil no doubt make my reply more accurate.
Perhaps they could have pulled into a nice farm shop for a cream tea, I am sure there must have been one, I mean he didn't say that but I assume there was.....
Thanks for setting me straight, I shall do as you suggest and assume every possible road layout in future, that wil no doubt make my reply more accurate.
Perhaps they could have pulled into a nice farm shop for a cream tea, I am sure there must have been one, I mean he didn't say that but I assume there was.....
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In reply to Dark-Cloud:
Do you ride a bike ?
Yes
> Cool, thanks, resort to insults, nice.
It's not an insult, it's a factDo you ride a bike ?
Yes
Post edited at 20:41
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In reply to richlan:
No, that you are coming over as a moron is a fact. I am however assuming you are indeed a moron.
> Oh OK I see, you are assuming too.
No, that you are coming over as a moron is a fact. I am however assuming you are indeed a moron.
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In reply to Lion Bakes:
I never thought what exactly I meant but generally, as a comment to help describe my experience, I meant that they acted as though no one else had a right to make use of the road or indeed that no other road users existed. And before you ask, I am a very active cyclist, these are my local roads and I ride on them a lot. There is very little car traffic on these roads and a tiny bit of consideration for another road user would have been appreciated. That's sort of what I meant.
I never thought what exactly I meant but generally, as a comment to help describe my experience, I meant that they acted as though no one else had a right to make use of the road or indeed that no other road users existed. And before you ask, I am a very active cyclist, these are my local roads and I ride on them a lot. There is very little car traffic on these roads and a tiny bit of consideration for another road user would have been appreciated. That's sort of what I meant.
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In reply to Dark-Cloud:
So are you saying you assumed no passing places because it wasn't suggested? I'm trying to think of an example of a single track road in the UK without a passing place. No can't think of a single one. But then, a road like that just wouldn't work unless it was 'one-way' right.
I've got pretty used to cyclists on narrow roads here in the Lakes and mostly all seems to work pretty well. Car and bike co-operating to help each others journey along. Maybe you're one of those tricky cyclists that 'owns the road'?
Lots of cyclists enjoying food, beer, tea at the Wasdale head yesterday, so many we couldn't find a spare seat. So yes plenty of stopping places too hey!
So are you saying you assumed no passing places because it wasn't suggested? I'm trying to think of an example of a single track road in the UK without a passing place. No can't think of a single one. But then, a road like that just wouldn't work unless it was 'one-way' right.
I've got pretty used to cyclists on narrow roads here in the Lakes and mostly all seems to work pretty well. Car and bike co-operating to help each others journey along. Maybe you're one of those tricky cyclists that 'owns the road'?
Lots of cyclists enjoying food, beer, tea at the Wasdale head yesterday, so many we couldn't find a spare seat. So yes plenty of stopping places too hey!
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In reply to AndyC:
How do you do a friendly honk? No matter how brief I am, I always feel that my honker comes across aggressively!
How do you do a friendly honk? No matter how brief I am, I always feel that my honker comes across aggressively!
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In reply to Plungeman:
A simple quick 'toot' on the horn is all about the motorist saying 'I am here'. Correct and appropriate use of the horn is encouraged both in the Highway Code, and also in Roadcraft - The Police drivers manual which is used as the basis of the AIM Advanced Motorists course. More often than not our club will pull over and let a vehicle make a safe pass if we know the road is particularly narrow for any significant distance.
A longer 'blast' on the horn is invariably taken as a sign of aggression, and treated with contempt by most cyclists
A simple quick 'toot' on the horn is all about the motorist saying 'I am here'. Correct and appropriate use of the horn is encouraged both in the Highway Code, and also in Roadcraft - The Police drivers manual which is used as the basis of the AIM Advanced Motorists course. More often than not our club will pull over and let a vehicle make a safe pass if we know the road is particularly narrow for any significant distance.
A longer 'blast' on the horn is invariably taken as a sign of aggression, and treated with contempt by most cyclists
In reply to Lord of Starkness:
I quite like a "pip-pip", feels less aggro somehow.
And I'd have pulled over, I hate having a vehicle behind me. Can't relax.
I quite like a "pip-pip", feels less aggro somehow.
And I'd have pulled over, I hate having a vehicle behind me. Can't relax.
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In reply to Lord of Starkness:
I struggle to think of more than a couple of occasions when I've experienced one of these, riding or driving. Generally it seems that if you've got time (and a free hand) to use the horn, you probably shouldn't be.
> Correct and appropriate use of the horn
I struggle to think of more than a couple of occasions when I've experienced one of these, riding or driving. Generally it seems that if you've got time (and a free hand) to use the horn, you probably shouldn't be.
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In reply to veteye:
When I am driving my car I make a point of treating each cyclist ahead as a car, - they have the whole lane, and I shouldn't encroach on that when I overtake.
As a cyclist I know that most drivers vastly over estimate 'sufficient room', many will even try and do it without encroaching over the white line, seemingly because they assume they needn't then be concerned with oncoming traffic.
And as a cyclist I like the idea of having more than one option when a pothole or grate suddenly appears ahead when being overtaken.
> Likewise it is annoying to be trailed by a car when there is sufficient room for them to overtake you. Some people seem to need a four lane highway to get by.
When I am driving my car I make a point of treating each cyclist ahead as a car, - they have the whole lane, and I shouldn't encroach on that when I overtake.
As a cyclist I know that most drivers vastly over estimate 'sufficient room', many will even try and do it without encroaching over the white line, seemingly because they assume they needn't then be concerned with oncoming traffic.
And as a cyclist I like the idea of having more than one option when a pothole or grate suddenly appears ahead when being overtaken.
Post edited at 16:47
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In reply to Si_G:
Must admit I wish cars had two "horns" like Manchester trams do, a friendly, non-aggressive "excuse me, please" toot, then an almighty scream for when it's about to kill someone who just walked out in front without looking.
(Interestingly, the "toot" on the new trams is actually a sound sample from the old ones!)
> I quite like a "pip-pip", feels less aggro somehow. And I'd have pulled over, I hate having a vehicle behind me. Can't relax.
Must admit I wish cars had two "horns" like Manchester trams do, a friendly, non-aggressive "excuse me, please" toot, then an almighty scream for when it's about to kill someone who just walked out in front without looking.
(Interestingly, the "toot" on the new trams is actually a sound sample from the old ones!)
Post edited at 18:16
In reply to Plungeman:
Agree, and it's probably more difficult in a modern car. In days gone by you could get a strangulated peep from the rusty klaxon buried under the bonnet by just tapping the switch enough to make a brief connection! I guess now you have to try and offset the antagonistic noise by waving and smiling like a demented maniac!
(edited for spelling!)
> How do you do a friendly honk? No matter how brief I am, I always feel that my honker comes across aggressively!
Agree, and it's probably more difficult in a modern car. In days gone by you could get a strangulated peep from the rusty klaxon buried under the bonnet by just tapping the switch enough to make a brief connection! I guess now you have to try and offset the antagonistic noise by waving and smiling like a demented maniac!
(edited for spelling!)
Post edited at 18:32
In reply to Lion Bakes:
The best advice. I'm just too polite and don't want anyone to think I'm a demon driver. Will practice my "I say.."
The best advice. I'm just too polite and don't want anyone to think I'm a demon driver. Will practice my "I say.."
In reply to blackmountainbiker:
"I say, can I have a chat concerning reaching a mutually satisfactory interpretation of rule 169 as applied in this particular circumstance?"
"I say, can I have a chat concerning reaching a mutually satisfactory interpretation of rule 169 as applied in this particular circumstance?"
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In reply to Neil Williams:
The Peugeot 404 Familiale that my Dad had back in the 1960s had something like this. I think it had two sounders, a discreet one which was activated by a gentle push on the centre of the wheel, and a "look out you muppet!" ear-splitter which cut in if you pressed a bit harder.
I agree that it would be nice to have something like this on modern cars. Not that many people would understand its use, probably - far too many don't even seem to understand how to use indicators. Or the accelerator pedal, come to that.
> Must admit I wish cars had two "horns" like Manchester trams do, a friendly, non-aggressive "excuse me, please" toot, then an almighty scream for when it's about to kill someone who just walked out in front without looking.
The Peugeot 404 Familiale that my Dad had back in the 1960s had something like this. I think it had two sounders, a discreet one which was activated by a gentle push on the centre of the wheel, and a "look out you muppet!" ear-splitter which cut in if you pressed a bit harder.
I agree that it would be nice to have something like this on modern cars. Not that many people would understand its use, probably - far too many don't even seem to understand how to use indicators. Or the accelerator pedal, come to that.
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