UKC

Conventional wisdom has it that UKIP are to the "right" of the Tories, and thus voters abandoning UKIP would instead vote Tory.

I've always been pretty dubious about this, and thought that UKIP was just as likely to attract Labour voters. After all, their main two policies (anti EU and anti immigration) have support across the political spectrum, and their other policies are just as likely to be "Old Labour" as anything.

UKIP thus illustrates the limitations of a simplistic left-right spectrum analysis. UKIP tend to get called "hard right" mainly because a lot of mainstream commenters dislike them, and such people tend to call anything they dislike "hard right".

Anyhow, have a look at the chart of polls here: http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/30/latest-polls-show-labour-narrowing-the-gap-to...

What is striking is that the recent collapse of UKIP support is coinciding with a large increase in Labour support. Coincidence? Maybe not. Maybe a lot of UKIP voters always were typical Labour voters, and they are now returning to Labour? The upswing in Labour support has to be coming from somewhere, and maybe a lot of it is from UKIP?

In reply to Coel Hellier:
I suspect they got the 'right of the tories' label from the comments made by many of their members, either elected or standing for election, with classics from folk like Godfrey Bloom plus their obsession with immigration

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Just possibly, the kippers get their reputation as a result of stuff like :

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukip-general-election-paddy-s...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/23/ukip-is-officially-the-most-raci...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/02/03/ukip-pamela-preedy-mandela-redca...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/05/28/dave-small-ukip-councillor-sacke...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3569001/ukip-election-candidate-caught-postin...

and so on..

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Before the last election, polling suggested that 60% of UKIP voters had voted Conservative last time, and 12% had voted UKIP. So, this is where the majority came from. Also, they were older, poorer and more likely to read the Mail/Express/Sun.
I think Corbyn is still polling behind Ed Milliband(?), so I think most of the labour surge is either due to (a) the two manifestos or more likely (b) since the campaign began Theresa May has looked less competent than people thought / Corbyn has looked less incompetent and dangerous than people thought
or even (c) everyone knows the tories will win, but people don't want them to get a landslide. The last poll I saw still had the conservatives gaining an 80 seat majority.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Their economic policies have never been more than an incoherent jumble of window dressing intended to have broad appeal but never to be implemented. Their enduring core ideas and values: nativism and opposing the EU (regulation, freedom, equality) share common ground with past, fascist regimes which is I suspect why they are considered 'far right'. Yes, many would consider that a slur but I think it's also a useful and justified label.
jk

In reply to Doug:


OK, but who decided that being against immigration was "far right"? It's pretty common to find such views among traditional working-class Labour-voting communities.

In reply to jkarran:


But that just begs the question. Many past fascist regimes have had economic policies, such as state control of the economy, that are more akin with Scargillite Old Labour as anything.

Fascist states want to control everything, which is very different from Laissez Faire, free-market, devil-take-the-hindermost policies typically associated with far-right think-tanks.

In reply to Coel Hellier

You are confusing economics and politics. Fascism (strongman, central control, nationalism, xenophobia) is politically right wing by any normal definition, and UKIP fits much of this.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Yes it is but language in common use evolves. I suspect if you asked a bunch of people at random the commonly accepted meaning of 'right wing' the answer is probably reflective of authoritarian European regimes of the mid 20th century, the emphasis placed on the fascism and in spite of their extensive economic control. The textbook economic definition is probably not much use unless you're talking with someone who read or wrote it.
jk

In reply to MG:


But some "normal" definitions don't define things that way. For example this idea is widely accepted: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum#/media/File:Political_char...

Also: "Fascism was influenced by both left and right, conservative and anti-conservative, national and supranational, rational and anti-rational.[42] A number of historians regard fascism as either a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine that mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both of those things."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Position_in_the_political_spectrum

If one adopts the line that "right wing" merely means anything you dislike then it makes the term pretty meaningless.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Your first link agrees with my point about the differences between economics and wider politics. The opening paragraph of your second states "fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.[4][5]". Cherry picking a line from pages down is a bit desperate!

In reply to MG:


Sure, it is indeed usually so labelled, by those who regard "right wing" as being anything they dislike.

But the whole point of this thread is to point out the limitations of a simplistic left-right axis, in particular with the suggestion that many of those who have voted or supported UKIP are natural Labour supporters, and that the current collapse in UKIP support is benefiting Labour as much as the Tories.

I think it's also true that in every case where the BNP has won a council seat, it's been in an area with a Labour MP.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


I don't think many do that, rather most people have a clear idea of right wing politics, as outlined above, and left wing (nationalisation, collectivism, power at least notionally with "workers" not a big leader etc). I agree left right doesn't capture things very well, but as a simplistic two word description it's as good as you will get.

Regarding Labour gaining support from UKIP, others have given you the numbers - probably a bit of that happening but not that much.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

I think a lot of younger people have decided to register to vote, were previously they haven't bothered. Brexit has probably show them that their vote counts.

In reply to Coel Hellier: i think MG is right on the money here - they are right as their core interests are nationalism and varying degrees of racism. As is typical for such parties across europe their economics are a jumble of free trade, protectionism and state intervention, usually to support 'the. Honest working man'.

This is hardly new?