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ARTICLE: Helmets - Keeping a Lid on it?

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 UKC Articles 31 May 2017
Alan James sport climbing with a helmet in Finale Ligure, Italy, 5 kbFollowing on from his recent 'hard-hitting' UKC article on head injury, 'Like I need a Hole in the Head', Toby Dunn decided to broach the subject of wearing - or not wearing - helmets in discussion with some friends and eminent climbers. What factors influence our decision to wear a helmet, or do away with it?

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 galpinos 31 May 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

As I've got older I've started wearing my helmet more. Trad climbing without it feels strange.

For a photo of Bransby being gnarly in an old school lid, this is still one of my favourite climbing photos of all time:

http://www.jamesmchaffie.com/uploads/1/3/1/7/13174502/7930175_orig.jpg?352

Ben Bransby on the Nose on Eigg by Adam Long.
 Michael Gordon 31 May 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

The type of climbing I would suggest is the most significant factor in whether a climber picked at random will be wearing a helmet. But why is this? Comparing sport and trad climbing, I don't think relative risk and whether one looks out of place are the only considerations. The other big factor is just the inherent 'feel' of the different activities. With indoor and sport climbing (outdoors) it is more likely to feel like a training session and when going for a redpoint folk are probably worried about getting too hot. Obviously the latter is just as likely when doing trad but since most of this is onsight there tends to be more uncertainties in the ground involved and even when looking up at a well protected crack there's a chance one might end up running it out to the next good hold or jam. So getting hot suddenly becomes a non-issue, at least in terms of helmet usage.
 planetmarshall 31 May 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

As Stu says n the article, our attitude to risk is irrational. If we're to be objective and rational, we'd wear protective gear that would reduce the objective risk to some predefined level, given our ability and the activity.

Climbing, however, is not a rational activity. Is managing our choice of what protective gear to use, or not to use, not part of the experience? Why would some climbers choose not to use pads on 'Archangel'? Or to solo 'Downhill Racer' instead of toprope it?

From this perspective, it seems downright backward that someone would choose to wear a helmet on a gritstone highball, but not on a sport climb.
 Dave Garnett 31 May 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:

> From this perspective, it seems downright backward that someone would choose to wear a helmet on a gritstone highball, but not on a sport climb.

I agree. In fact, I think it's more logical to wear a helmet on a sport route where you more or less expecting to fall off at some point rather than a bold grit route where falling isn't an option anyway.
 Michael Gordon 31 May 2017
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Nah, I think there is sound logic involved there. Yes a fall is more to be expected (and therefore likely) when sport climbing, but the consequences of a fall are as important, and undeniably a helmet is more likely to make a difference in a fall from a bold route or highball than when sport climbing.
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le_quack 31 May 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

I usually wear a helmet climbing outdoors whatever the style (sometimes I forget to put it back on after lunch) but I always make sure I have one on of at any point I'll be belaying. While climbing it's my choice to wear a helmet or not and my injury but while I'm Belaying I want to make sure there is as little chance as possible of putting the other person in harm's way and for me part of that is wearing a helmet to help lower the risk of falling rocks causing me to drop the rope and put my partner in danger.

I would like to point I out I'm not having a a pop at people who don't wear helmets belaying I regularly climb with people who never wear helmets and don't feel a any less safe
 Michael Gordon 31 May 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Climbing, however, is not a rational activity. Is managing our choice of what protective gear to use, or not to use, not part of the experience? Why would some climbers choose not to use pads on 'Archangel'? Or to solo 'Downhill Racer' instead of toprope it?

I think ethics are a different consideration and slightly irrelevant here. The only ethics I can think of in helmet usage are that some will insist on dispensing with a helmet for a (usually worked) solo as otherwise the solo ascent isn't 'pure' enough for them.

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 TobyA 31 May 2017
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Really? Bizarre!
 Michael Gordon 31 May 2017
In reply to TobyA:

I agree! One example that comes to mind is on Kev Shields' blog I'm sure I've read him mention dispensing with a helmet when it comes time for the solo, e.g. Fast and Furious.
 Cyan 31 May 2017
In reply to le_quack:
> while I'm Belaying I want to make sure there is as little chance as possible of putting the other person in harm's way

Agreed, although better to be out of the line of anything falling than wearing a helmet and stood right underneath that dodgy-looking block that your climber is about to pull onto!

Shortly after I’d started climbing a friend inverted during a fall from low down on a sport route and hit her head on a boulder. Her injuries weren't serious but it did seem a bit strange after that to wear a helmet for trad but not sport... I suspect I’m often the only person at the crag wearing a helmet but don’t really notice anymore.
 Misha 31 May 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:
I'm not sure that climbers generally avoid wearing helmets or see it as 'not cool' to wear one. May be so in sport climbing and personally I don't usually wear a helmet on sport routes as the (perceived) risk of head injury is lower. However most trad climbers seem to wear helmets. Pretty much all alpine climbers do and I don't think I've ever seen a winter or ice climber without on. So it depends on the type of climbing and setting really. These days you barely notice that you're wearing one anyway, unless it's a hot day - which is rare in the UK!

Incidentally, the only time I've inverted and whacked my head was on a bolted dry tooling route. Was wearing a helmet and hardly noticed the hit but the helmet (Pretzl Meteor) cracked. I was glad it wasn't my head which cracked. Food for thought...
Post edited at 19:55
 MNA123 31 May 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

Interesting read. Ive been climbing around 14 years and started (mostly) wearing a helmet to trad climb around 1 year in, after my parents bought me one for my birthday (a not so subtle hint). Didn't wear one sport climbing though until just over 2 years ago when my daughter was born.

After becoming a dad I just can't justify not wearing one, it just seems too selfish of me to even consider going lidless. Damn children and their dependence!!!!!
 SenzuBean 31 May 2017
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Nah, I think there is sound logic involved there. Yes a fall is more to be expected (and therefore likely) when sport climbing, but the consequences of a fall are as important, and undeniably a helmet is more likely to make a difference in a fall from a bold route or highball than when sport climbing.

All it takes is one wrong foot move when about to fall to invert yourself with the rope. It wouldn't be terribly unlikely to whack the back of your head on the rock after this. Although this risk is practically non-existent on steep sport - steep sport is not likely to be where novices are climbing - exactly the type of climber who would accidentally invert themselves.

 Michael Gordon 31 May 2017
In reply to SenzuBean:

I agree with all that. I'm just stating the obvious point that while there's a chance of a nasty fall on a sport route, there is a far higher chance of head injury if you fall off on a bold route or highball.
 TobyA 31 May 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

Interesting stuff. I wonder how much Toby's impressions are context dependent - in that my impression from my climbing is that most climbers have and wear helmets. I could see that if you spent a lot of time at Malham or in Cheedale, you might perceive the opposite. In fact I have a friend who got seriously into sport climbing, working over a number of years from being a 6a punter like me to doing his first 8a, and he stands out for wearing a helmet while higher level sport climbing - I've thought that while belaying him in Cheedale and in Majorca at least.

Alan's thoughts in the article about not wearing one soloing were interesting. I tend to think the opposite way around, so my soloing kit for an evening at Stanage or Burbage is shoes, chalk bag and my helmet. I think I'm such a wuss any way that I've never really got the idea that you take more risks if wearing a helmet. I solo back down lots of routes from 3/4 of the way up, having come across a move I don't like (and this is only Vdiffs or severes) - I agree falling is not an option, and I don't think wearing a helmet changes my calculations on a move I'm willing to do or not.
 67hours 31 May 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

I'm in my mid-twenties, as is pretty much everyone I climb with. I know that helmet debates occur but much of the conversation in this article and thread seems quite alien to me. We all wear helmets and I can't ever recall having a conversation about whether to wear them or not - it would be like discussing whether to use a harness or tie in around the waist for the next route. I think if I turned up to a crag without a helmet I'd probably not bother climbing that day, or at least swap it between us for leads.

Almost all of our climbing is trad, winter or alpine, and it seems to me like this debate stems more from the sport climbing side. Or perhaps we are just in the minority here.
 SteveJC94 31 May 2017
In reply to 67hours:
I've got exactly the same attitude as you and I feel like most people my age do as well. Everyone I climb with wears helmets on every route from trad to sport and winter and I've never even considered climbing without one, even on an easy, safe sport climb. With modern helmets being so comfortable and light now, I really can't see the argument for not wearing one.
Post edited at 23:29
 groovy chick 01 Jun 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

I wear a lid for it all except bouldering.

My dad died cragging, he was wearing a Pretzl Meteor; pulled off a block, fell about 10ft backwards the lid just cracked open and he didn't survive. Just making the point as it sounds like lids are luring people into a false sense of security, all said and done try to reduce the risk but on a bad day it still might not come off.

Stay lucky
 kevin stephens 01 Jun 2017
I always wear a helmet sport climbing after suffering a potentially serious head injury in a fall when I inverted, a 7a+ route so not really beginner territory. We all know not to get the rope behind our foot but sometimes mistakes happen when you're pushing it.

Some helmets give much better back of head protection than others; choose wisely
 Neil Williams 01 Jun 2017
In reply to 67hours:
> I'm in my mid-twenties, as is pretty much everyone I climb with.

...

> Or perhaps we are just in the minority here.

No, I think you being in the mid-20s is relevant. You're young enough to have grown up with cycle helmets (and more helmets for other activities) as the norm, people in their 30s almost certainly didn't as a kid. I think that will make a huge difference culturally/psychologically. You associate helmets with "dangerous stuff" automatically, people older than you probably don't.

Your point about swapping round for leads is interesting, though - if I was climbing with someone and we had one between two, I would want the *belayer* wearing it. Indeed, if it gets *really* hot I sometimes[1] don't wear one to climb, but outdoors I always wear one to belay, because I'm responsible for someone else's safety which is several degrees more important than just being responsible for my own, and there's always the risk of something being dropped/kicked down.

[1] Less often now I've bought a fancy lightweight ventilated one. Wearing a Half Dome or similar on a hot day tends me towards heatstroke after not very long. I don't "do" hats except in minus temperatures and have short hair - I rely on losing heat through my head most of the time.
Post edited at 07:06
 Neil Williams 01 Jun 2017
In reply to SteveJC94:
> I've got exactly the same attitude as you and I feel like most people my age do as well. Everyone I climb with wears helmets on every route from trad to sport and winter and I've never even considered climbing without one, even on an easy, safe sport climb. With modern helmets being so comfortable and light now, I really can't see the argument for not wearing one.

An interesting point, though, is that nobody (other than novices made to do so by the wall) wears one indoor. Yet, you're just as likely to invert and whack your head indoors as on sport?

Do you? Do you think things will progress that way?
Post edited at 07:05
 Michael Gordon 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

I think the only time I'd pick the belayer to wear the only helmet is when there's an obvious risk of stuff coming down. Of course in that situation I'd want us both wearing them!
 planetmarshall 01 Jun 2017
In reply to groovy chick:

> ....Just making the point as it sounds like lids are luring people into a false sense of security

Tragic about your dad, but I don't think there's any evidence at all that this is true, any more than wearing a seatbelt makes people take bigger risks behind the wheel.
 Michael Gordon 01 Jun 2017
In reply to TobyA:

> Alan's thoughts in the article about not wearing one soloing were interesting. I tend to think the opposite way around, I agree falling is not an option, and I don't think wearing a helmet changes my calculations on a move I'm willing to do or not.

Agreed. While setting off on a route I know that falling is not an option, I figure I may as well give myself a better chance of surviving from up to 10-15m.
 planetmarshall 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I think ethics are a different consideration and slightly irrelevant here.

I don't think the concerns are orthogonal. Risk and ethics in climbing go hand in hand, for me soloing is about the experience of climbing unencumbered, the helmet an unwelcome acceptance of the possibility of failure.

 Michael Gordon 01 Jun 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:

Anecdotal but I think without a seatbelt I may find I was a bit more cautious on winding roads.
 simoninger 01 Jun 2017
In reply to kevin stephens:

Some helmets give much better back of head protection than others; choose wisely

Yeah, a lot of comments here are about flipping over backwards and whacking your head but there a lot of photos (including this article) of helments perched or floating above people's heads. Having a tall skull I find it very hard to find anything that I think will give any back and side protection, stick a hat on and it's even worse.

I don't see many people now climbing without a helmet, but I don't go to hard sport venues.





 tjin 01 Jun 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

I have always worn a helmet climbing outdoors and that's like for the last 8 years. Always find it strange that so little people bother to wear one. Just invest in a nice fitting, comfy one and not a reason not to use it.

Also wear a helmet when MTB'ing, road biking, skiing (ok, I take it off on ascends during touring). Never cared about looking good.
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Agreed. While setting off on a route I know that falling is not an option, I figure I may as well give myself a better chance of surviving from up to 10-15m.

Isn't there a contradiction here? If it is not an option, then why do you need a better chance of surviving a fall?

(Not sure a helmet is going to help you much with a 10m to 15m fall, but I realise that isn't your point).

Alan
 TobyA 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

For me it's that I know I'm very far from being a perfect climber! I don't think I'm going to fall off a vdiffs otherwise I wouldn't solo it, but I know I can make mistakes climbing and some things can be out of your control. I think on many grit routes helmets perhaps can still make a difference if you're lucky due to many of the crags not being massive and how you land/where you land making a big difference. It's interesting that helmets seem to have become more common amongst top level climbers after Gresham wrote about choosing to wear one after falling off Meshuga IIRC, and Bentley on Equilibrium.
 kevin stephens 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> An interesting point, though, is that nobody (other than novices made to do so by the wall) wears one indoor. Yet, you're just as likely to invert and whack your head indoors as on sport?

I think that the bolts being a lot closer together on an indoor wall go a long way to mitigating this risk

 Neil Williams 01 Jun 2017
In reply to kevin stephens:

> I think that the bolts being a lot closer together on an indoor wall go a long way to mitigating this risk

True in some locations, though this rather varies - and what is being promoted is a fairly standardised "you should wear a helmet sport climbing" vs "it is not necessary indoors", even where the latter is a "fake rock" type wall.

OK, there is no chance of rockfall indoors, but is the difference in hardness between ply/fibreglass and rock enough to make the difference?
In reply to TobyA:

> For me it's that I know I'm very far from being a perfect climber! I don't think I'm going to fall off a vdiffs otherwise I wouldn't solo it, but I know I can make mistakes climbing and some things can be out of your control.

This is exactly my point though. If you have any doubt like that then you shouldn't solo in the first place.

Alan
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 Neil Williams 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
> This is exactly my point though. If you have any doubt like that then you shouldn't solo in the first place.Alan

Then nobody should solo. He's absolutely, 100% right. Soloing carries risks - you can make a mistake, a hold can break off etc. Nobody should do it with a view that they "aren't going to fall off" because that's dangerous delusion. What you need to do is understand your capabilities very, very well and know and understand the risk you are taking and how to mitigate it. Not "falling is impossible", but "falling must be avoided at all costs".

Actually, that reads like something more people need to apply on the road!
Post edited at 10:08
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 spidermonkey09 01 Jun 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

I'm 23 and seem to be going through a phase where I very rarely wear my helmet. The only times I've worn it in the last 18 months have been for routes on 90% choss and certain others where it felt like tempting fate not to (Totem Pole!).

I don't think I've ever worn one sport climbing but having inverted before and seen a head injury resulting from an inversion, I know I should. The thing is, I don't want to really. I try and avoid getting all metaphysical about climbing but I feel like it's an escape from the everyday and wearing a helmet impairs that feeling of freedom for me at the moment.

I'm well aware this is naive on a grand scale and another example of youthful stupidity; it's totally unjustifiable. But so are a lot of things. That's how I attempt to rationalise it anyway!
1
 planetmarshall 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Nobody should do it with a view that they "aren't going to fall off" because that's dangerous delusion. What you need to do is understand your capabilities very, very well and know and understand the risk you are taking and how to mitigate it.

That's the point though - all climbers are deluded about risk, otherwise they wouldn't climb. It makes no sense to me for the soloist to mitigate the risk with a helmet, but not mitigate it with a rope, gear and a partner.
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 galpinos 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> This is exactly my point though. If you have any doubt like that then you shouldn't solo in the first place.Alan

I though Toby's point was more that he has no doubt, his mindset is that he won't fall and will downclimb if required but his rational head says accidents happen so he'll stack the deck in his favour.

Personally, I don't wear a helmet soloing but having read this article and thread, I'm now considering it.
 1poundSOCKS 01 Jun 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:

> That's the point though - all climbers are deluded about risk, otherwise they wouldn't climb.

I think most or all of us are unaware of the exact risk, but I think it's likely if I was aware of the actual risk I'd still climb, in one form or another. I'd certainly be able to take steps to reduce that risk also.

For example, I know it's possible for a quickdraw to unclip, and I've taken repeated falls on routes where that would be very bad. If I knew the actual statistics, I might climb a different route, or maybe use a screwgate (even if that made the climbing harder).
 wilkie14c 01 Jun 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

ironic that as i read this thread, i'm presented with a RAB advert showing a young lady climbing without a helmet.
We old dogs know what we know and aren't subversively gotten at by advertising but the advertisers should take a certain responsibility.
How about UKC not accepting climbing shots from advertisers that show climbing without lids? (bouldering aside)
3
 jonnie3430 01 Jun 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:

> That's the point though - all climbers are deluded about risk, otherwise they wouldn't climb.

I disagree, I think climbing makes you far more proficient in judging risk.

I've also heard before that statistically, driving to the crag is more dangerous than climbing. If that is the case and you were risk averse, you would still climb, but not go in a car...

 planetmarshall 01 Jun 2017
In reply to jonnie3430:

> I've also heard before that statistically, driving to the crag is more dangerous than climbing. If that is the case and you were risk averse, you would still climb, but not go in a car...

It can be calculated and compared mathematically using 'micromorts', though I'm not sure if reliable statistics are available for UK cragging (maybe something I'll look into). At the other end of the spectrum, an ascent of Everest is mathematically riskier than performing a bombing mission during WWII.

For comparison, 10 micromorts, or a 1:100000 chance of death, is roughly comparable to driving 2500 miles, or having a general anaesthetic.
 Neil Williams 01 Jun 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:
> That's the point though - all climbers are deluded about risk, otherwise they wouldn't climb. It makes no sense to me for the soloist to mitigate the risk with a helmet, but not mitigate it with a rope, gear and a partner.

But then you could move that on to "it makes no sense to lead at a single-pitch crag because you could top rope and do it in complete[1] safety".

[1] Not complete. I've been off climbing for a couple of weeks due to a sprained arm caused by falling off and landing awkwardly on a block on rope stretch...on a Diff on top-rope. On a move I wouldn't have tried as I did had I been leading or soloing...that's probably a nice risk compensation example.
Post edited at 11:18
 GridNorth 01 Jun 2017
In reply to jonnie3430:

> I disagree, I think climbing makes you far more proficient in judging risk.I've also heard before that statistically, driving to the crag is more dangerous than climbing.

That statistic gets rolled out every once in a while but my experience would suggest the opposite. I know more people who drive and don't climb than I do climbers. 23 climbers who I would consider friends have been killed climbing but I don't know a single person who has been killed or even seriously injured in a road accident. Make of that what you will !

Al
 planetmarshall 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:
> But then you could move that on to "it makes no sense to lead at a single-pitch crag because you could top rope and do it in complete[1] safety".

Well no, to me that's reductio ad absurdum. Climbing is only about reduction of risk up to but not including the point where you are no longer climbing but performing some other activity, and that includes climbing's subgenres.

Reduction of risk plays no part in soloing, for me. It's about the experience of climbing unencumbered. If you start mitigating the risks, then you're doing something else - it's like the 'just don't use the bolts' argument for retrobolting.

All this is my opinion of course, I'm not going to tell people how they should be climbing.
Post edited at 11:29
 TobyA 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> This is exactly my point though. If you have any doubt like that then you shouldn't solo in the first place.Alan

I do see your point, and having a doubts about a move is why I have down soloed various routes from halfway or further up (Amazon Crack (S 4a) and Brooks' Layback (HS 4b) being memorable personal examples of this)! Perhaps I have a pessimistic outlook on life - holds can break, random kids you didn't see at the top of the cliff can throw stuff down just for a laugh, a sheep can fall off, and I can make mistakes - even when I know I must not. I have never fallen off or even needed to jump down when soloing, so I haven't made that mistake yet, but wearing a helmet just seems like an acceptance that it is a possibility.
1
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 01 Jun 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

> That statistic gets rolled out every once in a while but my experience would suggest the opposite. I know more people who drive and don't climb than I do climbers. 23 climbers who I would consider friends have been killed climbing but I don't know a single person who has been killed or even seriously injured in a road accident. Make of that what you will !Al

I would agree totally with that and those kind of figures,


Chris
In reply to UKC Articles:

It has taken me many years to get into the habit of wearing a helmet again which I now do all the time except when bouldering and indoor climbing (maybe I should?)

Last year I had a serious accident whilst sports climbing and my Petzl helmet saved my life. However I did forget to wear my helmet on the route I did before the one I had my accident on!
 TobyA 01 Jun 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:

> It makes no sense to me for the soloist to mitigate the risk with a helmet, but not mitigate it with a rope, gear and a partner.

Because then it wouldn't be soloing would it?
I've worn helmets for so long (climbing, cycling, skiing, etc.) that climbing in one isn't an encumbrance for me. It's just part of my 'personal gear' along with chalk bag and shoes. I'm lucky that in addition to my now rather old Meteor, from an old UKC review I have another two lightweight foam helmets to choose from, but even bog standard all round plastic helmets like the Elios or Camp Armour aren't that much of a burden to wear.

I often wear crack gloves too (now mainly because I'm trying to see if I can wear out a couple of pairs that I have for review!), but when soloing I think they sort of mitigate risk too as I can jam more securely in them. I totally understand some people wouldn't want that at all, but for me its a compromise I'm perfectly happy with.
 sensibleken 01 Jun 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

I'm surprised that the potential for rock fall didn't factor into this article. I've always worn a helmet on both trad and sport, including while belaying as that is, so far, the most common time it has saved me from falling debris.

 sensibleken 01 Jun 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:

"It can be calculated and compared mathematically using 'micromorts'"

Is it weird that I read this in Rick from Rick and Morty's voice.
 jonnie3430 01 Jun 2017
In reply to GridNorth:
Could you let me know how many were on UK single pitch crags in the last 20 years? The alpine and expedition, and the winter games are all a lot more hazardous than single pitch cragging, and I think equipment and techniques have made it safer too.

I think the driving to the crag statistic is based on single pitch type cragging.
Post edited at 12:53
 nutme 01 Jun 2017

Last Christmas slipped and felt 8 meters in Mallorca. Was about to clip.. Hit the wall with head and then ledge with legs. As result operation to screw back the ankle and it may never get a full motion range. Epic retreat from route and driving with broken leg is another story.. But it completely convinced my partner to wear a helmet now rather "be in control of risk".

Myself I actually like wearing a helmet. Most of the time I don't even notice it on my head. I really don't see a point of not wearing one. Mountains don't care how you look and it's warmer with a bucket on the head. As for hot Mediterranean climbing we have foam petzls and black diamonds with so many holes I'm worried for rocks hitting head throw one of those!

In years I had few bumps with helmet against the rock.. Scratched multiple helmets on tunnels and caves ceilings, disintegrated (sick!) a helmet on ski crash, had a carabiner dropped (it left a hole in plastic) and thanks to helmets I never had even a bruise on the skull.
Post edited at 13:00
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Then nobody should solo. He's absolutely, 100% right. Soloing carries risks - you can make a mistake, a hold can break off etc. Nobody should do it with a view that they "aren't going to fall off" because that's dangerous delusion. What you need to do is understand your capabilities very, very well and know and understand the risk you are taking and how to mitigate it. Not "falling is impossible", but "falling must be avoided at all costs".Actually, that reads like something more people need to apply on the road!

I completely disagree with this. You should definitely only solo when you are certain you aren't going to fall. This is not a dangerous delusion it is a state of mind. Watch Honnold on Moonlight Buttress and you will hear him say that he knows he isn't going to fall. That is the confidence I am talking about.

You should apply this attitude to everything you do when soloing. Each hold you pull on - is it solid; each foot placement you make - will it slip; can you either reverse from where you are, or be certain you can get to the top on easy ground having committed to the next move. If there is any doubt on any of these questions then you should retreat.

As soon as you add the thought that falling is a possibility then you are short of the necessary confidence to solo and, in my opinion, probably shouldn't do it. I am not talking about highball soloing of hard boulder problems/routes here where you can places mats, wear helmets and have spotters, I am talking about run of the mill soloing of routes you know well or are well within your grade on.

Alan
 1poundSOCKS 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> This is not a dangerous delusion it is a state of mind. Watch Honnold on Moonlight Buttress and you will hear him say that he knows he isn't going to fall.

But the late John Bachar said words to the effect of he didn't see he was taking a risk because the knew he wouldn't fall. Where is the dangerous delusion?
 Neil Williams 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
> I completely disagree with this. You should definitely only solo when you are certain you aren't going to fall.

Then nobody should every solo. It's like driving. If I go out in the car now, I do not expect to crash, and I will do everything reasonably in my power not to. However, there is always the small chance that I may do. Which is why I wear a seat belt, and would even if it were not legally required. There is the small chance that each time I go out by car I may die and have no opportunity to avoid it.

> This is not a dangerous delusion it is a state of mind. Watch Honnold on Moonlight Buttress and you will hear him say that he knows he isn't going to fall. That is the confidence I am talking about. You should apply this attitude to everything you do when soloing. Each hold you pull on - is it solid; each foot placement you make - will it slip; can you either reverse from where you are, or be certain you can get to the top on easy ground having committed to the next move. If there is any doubt on any of these questions then you should retreat.

But that's not about being certain you won't fall. That's about mitigating the possibility of falling.

> As soon as you add the thought that falling is a possibility then you are short of the necessary confidence to solo and, in my opinion, probably shouldn't do it. I am not talking about highball soloing of hard boulder problems/routes here where you can places mats, wear helmets and have spotters, I am talking about run of the mill soloing of routes you know well or are well within your grade on.

I know, but you still cannot be CERTAIN you will not fall.

Most adults will, for example, at some point have tripped on the stairs. Expected? No. Common? No. But it happens.

I think, though, we are talking about the same thing but with a different definition of certainty. I'm using the mathematical definition - absolute, 100%, no possibility of an alternative event occurring. I think you're not, you're using it to mean "infinitessimally unlikely".
Post edited at 13:47
1
 planetmarshall 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Then nobody should every solo. It's like driving. If I go out in the car now, I do not expect to crash, and I will do everything reasonably in my power not to.

I disagree, it's not like driving. Not unless you drive recreationally - and even then as far as I am aware there is no driving discipline where the entire raison d'etre of the exercise is to drive without any safeguards whatsoever.
 Neil Williams 01 Jun 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:
> I disagree, it's not like driving. Not unless you drive recreationally - and even then as far as I am aware there is no driving discipline where the entire raison d'etre of the exercise is to drive without any safeguards whatsoever.

Motorcycling is pretty close, to be honest, particularly if you like to ride a powerful bike fast. OK, you have a helmet and leathers, but if you have an argument with a lorry you are not going to win.
Post edited at 13:53
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I think, though, we are talking about the same thing but with a different definition of certainty. I'm using the mathematical definition - absolute, 100%, no possibility of an alternative event occurring. I think you're not, you're using it to mean "infinitessimally unlikely".

I think you are correct here.

Alan
 planetmarshall 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Neil Williams:

> I think, though, we are talking about the same thing but with a different definition of certainty. I'm using the mathematical definition - absolute, 100%, no possibility of an alternative event occurring. I think you're not, you're using it to mean "infinitessimally unlikely".

Not relevant to this discussion, but as this is UKC, to be pedantic, mathematically speaking they're both the same thing...

 C Witter 01 Jun 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

I think it's important to recognise that a helmet won't protect you completely, whether you're hit by a partner or fall rocking, or fall yourself. But, the head a) has your brain in it and b) is relatively easy to protect. It'd be great to be fully protected from a fall - but, body armour probably wouldn't work and would be pretty cumbersome... So, if you're looking to protect yourself from risk, a helmet seems a good place to start.

On this note: I imagine that one reason trad and winter climbers wear helmets more often is that a big part of these disciplines is thinking about how to protect the ascent. You'd have to be mad to go winter climbing without a helmet, especially in these days of lean conditions meaning you've 5 parties ahead of you and 5 behind, up the only frozen gully around. Heading up an "easy" grade II gully on Brown Cove Crags this winter, my partner, leading above me, shouted down "rock" to me. No one had shouted it to him, but someone above had knocked a skull sized lump of rhyolite off and it was ricocheting down the chute like a pinball. I shouted "rock" and watched another leader below me look up from where he was arranging a belay, pull a terrified expression, and then turn his shoulder toward the expected impact. Somehow it bounced centimetres under his face, between his body and the banked snow.

Anyway - a second thing: in a bored moment, I've watched a couple of those "Whippers of 2016" video compilations people post on Youtube. And one of the arresting things you notice as you watch 50 people whip is how many of them fall over backwards - not only because of tripping over the rope, but also because they're on slabby ground, or just because their hands popped off with force. Given how likely an inversion seems, protecting the head, neck and back is a real concern. The only time I've had to catch a whipper, it was climbing a slab. The leader fell maybe 8m and ended up suspended horizontally with his back and head about a foot off a ledge.

Finally, I reckon Andy Cave's onto something: when people are introduced to the sport, we should set a good example and get them putting helmets on. I've always worn a helmet when climbing outside (I often even wear it when bouldering and usually when soloing), and it never feels "odd" to have it on because I've always worn a helmet since I was first introduced to the sport by friends who lent me gear, including harness and helmet. Conversely, I grew up cycling helmet-less and, although I've been shocked recently by personal near misses and hearing of cyclist deaths at the hands of careless drivers, I still don't wear a helmet (I probably should... I probably won't). Make it the norm when introducing new people to the sport, and it'll become the norm.



 1poundSOCKS 01 Jun 2017
In reply to C Witter:

> Anyway - a second thing: in a bored moment, I've watched a couple of those "Whippers of 2016" video compilations people post on Youtube. And one of the arresting things you notice as you watch 50 people whip is how many of them fall over backwards

Maybe a selection bias because inverted falls look more dramatic? I've seen hundreds of falls at the crag, mostly sport, and only seen somebody invert once I think. And that was a lass falling off Kipling Groove on Gimmer.
 ChrisBrooke 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> I am not talking about highball soloing of hard boulder problems/routes here where you can places mats, wear helmets and have spotters, I am talking about run of the mill soloing of routes you know well or are well within your grade on.Alan

This might be the crux of the difference in what you guys are talking about. I wear a helmet when I'm 'soloing' at Burbage North etc. For me it's generally a relaxing activity with a high degree of focus, and the occasional 'scare' which focusses the mind even more. I wear a helmet because it feels strange to have an uncovered head after 20 years of climbing with one. Although I don't fall off from high up, and the routes aren't that high anyway, I don't like the idea of somehow coming off close to the ground (on something bouldery and hard), maybe falling backwards and cracking my head on something at the base of the route. I don't think once I'm 8m up it's going to somehow keep me safe, although I'd gladly accept the difference between 'crumpled body, OK head, alive' and 'crumpled body, cracked head, dead'.

I don't tend to solo beyond that (easy stuff at Burbage/Stanage/Birchen etc) so can't comment on 'real' soloing, but once in that world I think you're right.
 Neil Williams 01 Jun 2017
In reply to C Witter:

> Make it the norm when introducing new people to the sport, and it'll become the norm.

I think that's part of the basis of child-only cycle helmet laws - less politically unpopular than mandating it for adults, but at the same time within a generation will have almost every adult wearing one.
 Michael Gordon 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

> Isn't there a contradiction here? If it is not an option, then why do you need a better chance of surviving a fall?

I don't think there is a contradiction. Same as when you're on a serious lead and 'falling is not an option', yet you place some absolutely terrible gear. Why bother if it almost certainly won't hold and you really, really, really don't plan on falling off?

When I say 'not an option', this means falling is unthinkable as it could mean broken legs, back or worse. So I would do everything in my power not to fall off, and obviously retreat if prudence won the day. However, a helmet may save my life.
 Offwidth 01 Jun 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

How many of those climbing deaths occurred whilst UK trad cragging, thats the comparison people usually make when they talk about comparative driving risks. I've personally known thousands of climbers but not one who has died on a UK crag (although I do know of some climbers who died on UK crags... even then I know of more climbers who died on the roads), I've sadly known quite a few people who died on the roads, including several close friends.... a lot more than climbers I knew at all who have died or have even been seriously injured in any form of climbing. I'm pretty sure we have done this before and I said then and would still say now that anyone who has so many climbing deaths amongst friends and so few on the roads is very unusual and probably has too few ordinary friends and too many at the riskier end of climbing.
 ericinbristol 01 Jun 2017
In reply to Christheclimber:

What happened?
In reply to ericinbristol:

> What happened?

A large block fell off from above me and hit me on my head and shoulder when lowering off after completing a route at Giggleswick last July. Mountain rescue were brilliant as was my mate Mike in getting me down from the route and as comfortable as possible as I was unconscious. Eventually winched out by helicopter and then transferred to an air ambulance and to hospital. Resulted in 7 fractured vertebrae, multi fractured scapula, fractured clavicle, fractured humerus socket and some broken ribs. Spent the summer in a spinal brace. All I can say in response to this article is thank God I was wearing a helmet!!!
 Misha 01 Jun 2017
In reply to kevin stephens:

> I think that the bolts being a lot closer together on an indoor wall go a long way to mitigating this risk

Indeed. Also indoors most of the surface area is ply which will be a lot kinder to your head than rock. Of course there's still a chance of hitting a hold with your head but compare that to a crag where anything you hit will definitely be hard and rocky.

Don't seem to see that many inverted falls at walls anyway. Probably harder to get a leg behind the rope due to the more uniform shape of indoor walls.
 Misha 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Offwidth:
The other point to consider is that as climbers we know a higher proportion of the regular climbing population than of the general driving population.
 Bob Kemp 02 Jun 2017
In reply to planetmarshall:
"I don't think there's any evidence at all that this is true"

I understand there's quite a lot of evidence to suggest that risk compensation does happen. Eg. this paper
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4767144/
summarises some of the work that's been published.
 Paul Sagar 02 Jun 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

Last month some friends and I were climbing in Ariege in the South of France. We all wore helmets doing long mulitpitch routes, but when we got to the single pitch crags we didn't bother. Then on the last day, a French public holiday, we went to a small sport crag that for once wasn't deserted, but was instead ram full of French climbers. Every single one of them wore a helmet. You'd never see that kind of consistency at, say, Portland or the Peak's sport crags (or in my experience, Spain, Kalymnos or Thailand). So there's definitely cultural differences at work. The French, apparently, are very risk averse. Who knew?
 C Witter 02 Jun 2017
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Mm - maybe so, good point!
 Pete_Frost 02 Jun 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

I was down at Boulder Ruckle when a pebble the size of my thumb fell and hit my helmet - my ears rang for half an hour afterwards. I have worn a helmet on all outdoor crags ever since.

I know that a helmet won't save me from anything much bigger than a brick, but there are a lot of loose holds, quick-draws and even cactus pads (think Frontales at el Chorro) up there that it can take the sting out of.

In the end, it's up to each of us to take whatever personal safety measures we want. As long as you're not putting anyone else at extra risk, and you accept the risk in full knowledge of the consequences, then do what you want and enjoy it.

 GridNorth 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Offwidth:
> I'm pretty sure we have done this before and I said then and would still say now that anyone who has so many climbing deaths amongst friends and so few on the roads is very unusual and probably has too few ordinary friends and too many at the riskier end of climbing.

Possibly so but it seems like Chris Craggs is in a similar position and I suspect many of those I know were also friends of Chris. The number of climbers I know who were killed on UK crags is 4. At least that's all I can think of at the moment and it's too depressing to think about it too much. It's also worth mentioning that this is over a 53 year timescale.

I'm sure I read somewhere that there were more deaths in Scotland from climbing last year than there were road deaths.

Al
Post edited at 12:37
 Pete_Frost 02 Jun 2017
In reply to spidermonkey09:

Last time I looked, life was terminal in 100% of cases. It's up to you how you lead it, and as long as you make your own decisions, based on a good knowledge of the facts, then you're not being stupid: you're just valuing a sensation very highly compared to a safety measure.

However, if there's an element of climbing to impress someone else, to make a point to someone, or simply to justify your own existence to yourself, then maybe you should sit down and have a conversation with someone qualified to advise you.
 TobyA 02 Jun 2017
In reply to GridNorth:
> I'm sure I read somewhere that there were more deaths in Scotland from climbing last year than there were road deaths.

That seems very, very unlikely. It is actually I think a wonderful thing of just how rare deaths in climbing are these days - particularly in roped technical climbing, both winter and summer, in the UK.

If anyone doesn't already, they should listen to the excellent Mountain Podcast that Chris Sleight (an old UKCer too) produces. Currently he is one part into the story of Jackie Greaves who was lost in the Cairngorms for two days in 1994 when winter hillwalking. http://mountainpodcast.com/ I was living in Glasgow at the time and following coverage of mountaineering accidents and rescues in the press for a sociology study I was doing for uni (I decided it was an example of a failed construction of a moral panic, mainly because of the socio-economic class background of climbers and hillwalkers!). I remember being over-joyed on hearing that Jackie was found alive, in part because it had been a hard winter with a number of tragedies both walkers and climbers killed - I think it was that season that two were killed in a fall from Minus One and one guy killed, another rescued badly injured on the NE Buttress, as well as deaths of walkers and climbers in avalanches.

Someone might have figures but climbing seems to be safer now than it was 20 years ago, let alone 30 or 40, despite significant rises in participation. I would be shocked if deaths from climbing in Scotland are anywhere close to road deaths.
Post edited at 13:55
 GridNorth 02 Jun 2017
In reply to TobyA:

I'm reasonably confident about this. I seem to recall the figure was 54 and it was the first time that this had happened.

Al
 Mr. Lee 02 Jun 2017
In reply to UKC Articles:

I used to always wear a helmet but sometimes do without now at crags that I know to be reliable and solid. Slabby granite cracks for example. I sweat a lot and more so in a helmet (even with a BD Vapor). Sweat running down my forehead from a helmet can be quite a distraction. I try to weigh up the risk of falling without a helmet verses the risk of becoming a complete sweaty mess with a helmet and therefore being more prone to falling off in the first place (NB if it's just too hot then I obviously don't climb).

Contrary to previous posts, I actually feel more vulnerable to head injuries on highball boulder problems. Last year I sprung backwards off a crash pad with my head hitting the ground a metre from a large rock. Being tall my centre of gravity is higher and my impact zone is bigger if I end up horizontal. Rather than wear a helmet though just make sure I have extra spotters and pads where needed.

Incidentally there's some basalt crags near where I live. Ironically the guidebook advices to always wear helmets yet none of the photographed climbers in the guide are wearing any.
 Ian Patterson 02 Jun 2017
In reply to GridNorth:

> I'm reasonably confident about this. I seem to recall the figure was 54 and it was the first time that this had happened. Al

I'd agree that these seems very unlikely. A quick google finds that deaths on Scottish roads have reduced greatly over last couple of decades but are still 150+ per year, 162 in 2015 according to http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Justice/justicestrategy/Justice-Dashboard/Low-ha...

A search for scottish deaths in mountains finds this article:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/a-new-record-for-scotlands-misleading-...

Which mentions 54 deaths in 1993, and the fact this exceed deaths on highlands roads. This sounds like the sort of statistic that starts off true but then gets subtled changed to mean something else that definitely isn't true - note the stats relate to deaths in the mountains (including walkers as well as climbers) and the road deaths only to highland roads not the whole of Scotland.
 gethin_allen 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
My thoughts about your logic for not wearing a helmet while soloing are that if something of a moderate size were to land on your head you'd have more chance of staying on if you were wearing a helmet. And as the Toby mentions in his article, this doesn't have to be something you've dislodged or even a rock, it could be a chav throwing cans at you for a laugh.
 spidermonkey09 02 Jun 2017
In reply to Pete_Frost:

Thanks for that. I would like to think (who wouldn't?) that the second paragraph doesn't apply to me but its always good to have some introspection and analyse why we do certain things. Food for thought!

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