/ May v Corbyn

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Sean Kelly - on 15 Jun 2017
Watching the News tonight and the two images of May and Corbyn visiting the Grenfell Towers could not have been more different. Corbyn really is a man of the people and really relates to the man/woman in the street. As for May...words fail me! If this had happened before the recent election, we can only guess but....
13
Yanis Nayu - on 15 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I just said to my wife that Corbyn has become far, far more prime ministerial than May.

He has evident warmth and compassion.
7
Greenbanks - on 15 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Even more so when stuff about how on the ball Rock Feilding-Mellen, the housing guy for RBKC, has been regarding H&S in his own backyard when he seems to be deflected by business interests elsewhere...as reported by the Grenfell Action Group about this time last year.
elsewhere on 15 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:
"In the space of a week, Theresa May has become almost as unpopular as Jeremy Corbyn once was"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-jeremy-corbyn-less-popular-election-2017-c...

Amazing change in approval ratings since the election.

Post edited at 21:48
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captain paranoia - on 15 Jun 2017
In reply to elsewhere:

Hardly surprising that May's stock has plummeted, even amongst Tory voters, given that she managed to take a decent majority in the house, and piss it away with a very poorly-judged gamble on an early election.

Corbyn I guess simply looks better in relative terms.
13
MG - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

She seems staggeringly incapable of any human interaction - a prerequisite for political success normally. This lack of ability cost her the election and here was a gross failing as a leader of society. Corbyn has done well by contrast (and Kahn).
2
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Is being PM of the world's 6th biggest economy really about giving hugs, it's all a play for the media and cleverly done, but does nothing to change the capabilities of the Corbyn.
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MG - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> Is being PM of the world's 6th biggest economy really about giving hugs, .

No, but it's part of it. It helps give sense of national unity and purpose at times of stress, as now. That's part of a leader's role.

2
Offwidth - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Well said. The dislikes clearly show that some UKC members need to start facing reality. This has nothing to do with party politics. May was poor, Corbyn was the opposite and the polls show an amazing change in relative approval ratings, even given the inevitable drops given the disastrous election for her. The party plans to keep her in place for now look even more weak and wobbly. Question Time last night gave further indications of the toxicity to the voting public of linking up with the DUP.
1
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to MG:

> No, but it's part of it. It helps give sense of national unity and purpose at times of stress, as now. That's part of a leader's role.

Forget the hugs, I'd rather see someone clamp down on building regs and whoever signed this off or did the site inspection.

It's like national flags projected on buildings, books of condolence, changing your Facebook page etc.. It's all fluffy nonsense that does nothing to tackle the root causes.
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Offwidth - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

Tell Mays advisers that its fluffy nonsense... image is important to a PM. Irrespective, even on the serious stuff, anything on buliding regs and sign offs has far more land mines for her and her party than for Corbyn and his.
tony on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> Forget the hugs, I'd rather see someone clamp down on building regs and whoever signed this off or did the site inspection.

And clearly Corbyn's not in a position where he can do that. What he can do is demonstrate that there's a voice for those who have been affected by this disaster, that there's someone on the side of the grieving and those made homeless, and who will fight for them and will ask the necessary questions at the highest levels.
1
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

> Tell Mays advisers that its fluffy nonsense... image is important to a PM. Irrespective, even on the serious stuff, anything on buliding regs and sign offs has far more land mines for her and her party than for Corbyn and his.

Fluff might gain votes but it won't change anything though.

Corbyn is king at. 40years of complaining on the benches, about parties of all colours.

Ps. I never mentioned May or said she was better. Only that just because Corbyn makes sure he hugs someone on camera does not mean he can run the country. It's just media play, like that train with no free seats.
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MG - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> Forget the hugs, I'd rather see someone clamp down on building regs and whoever signed this off or did the site inspection.

Both things are possible, you know. Dismissing emotional responses as "fluffy nonsense" suggests a remarkable lack of empathy - humans aren't robots, mostly. In fact, without some sense of "belonging", governance, and hence building regs, becomes impossible. A PM's role isn't just about widget regulation, important though that is of course, but about leading people as well.


1
jkarran - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to elsewhere:

> Amazing change in approval ratings since the election.

That's heartening.
jk
RomTheBear on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Why would she visit ? a diverse bunch, lots of foreign born, exactly the kind of people she doesn't give a toss about.
5
stevieb - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

Agreed, the fact that May does not relate easily to the general public is secondary.
This fire may turn out to have a different cause, but the big national issue here is how our building regulations still allow this material for high rise buildings after a number of fires around the world when many similar countries don't.
A public perception of health and safety gone mad, a government aim for a bonfire of red tape, and a government policy of 1 in 3 out for any new regulations may feed in to this.
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to MG:

Both is fine. But just because Corbyn loves a cuddle doesn't suddenly make him PM or his shadow cabinet competent to run the country.
10
r0x0r.wolfo - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

Neither Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn will do that. That will be done by someone far lower in the pecking order. Corbyn has put a lot of pressure on for a investigation which is as much as you can ask from a shadow leader.
1
MG - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

No, I didn't suggest that.

Also, we don't know what has gone wrong here. Changing regulations is probably unwise until we do. Building regs are complex and inter-related. Making a change in one area will affect other areas if not done with careful thought, and quite possibly end up with incoherent, possibly contradictory regulations (there are enough of these already).
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:
> Neither Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn will do that. That will be done by someone far lower in the pecking order. Corbyn has put a lot of pressure on for a investigation which is as much as you can ask from a shadow leader.

I'm sure lots of people lower down than Corbyn put the pressure on too, as it's their job and field of expertise. Fire brigade, police, hse, coroner.... Corbyn is just trying to gain political capital out of a really grim situation. What exactly is Corbyns profession, training or field of expertise?

Instead of ranting about Kensington houses, I'm sure he could fit in a family in his place, if he really cares.
Post edited at 09:32
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The New NickB - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> Forget the hugs, I'd rather see someone clamp down on building regs and whoever signed this off or did the site inspection.

That might require some serious reflection and very strong words with her chief of staff.

> It's like national flags projected on buildings, books of condolence, changing your Facebook page etc.. It's all fluffy nonsense that does nothing to tackle the root causes.

No, but it might help people who are suffering now.
The New NickB - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

To be honest, I think you probably need a cuddle.
1
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to The New NickB:

> To be honest, I think you probably need a cuddle.

I'd have to decline from JC though. Need to draw the line somewhere.

If he did it for genuine reasons, it wouldn't have been on camera.
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tony on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:
> I'm sure lots of people lower down than Corbyn put the pressure on too, as it's their job and field of expertise. Fire brigade, police, hse, coroner.... Corbyn is just trying to gain political capital out of a really grim situation. What exactly is Corbyns profession, training or field of expertise?

If we've learned anything from elections over the last few years and last year's referendum, it is surely that those at the bottom of the pile, like those living in Grenfell Tower, have had enough of not being listened, and of having their concerns brushed aside. It's surely time for politicians on all sides to accept and recognise that the status quo is not an option, and that things have to change, that someone has to speak up for them.

Being poor doesn't make you any less of a person, but it does make it harder for your voice to be heard. Jeremy Corbyn is doing what he can to help those without a voice to have their say, and for their views and fears and concerns to be listened to. To be honest, it's what all decent people should be doing.
Post edited at 09:43
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jkarran - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to RomTheBear:

> Why would she visit ? a diverse bunch, lots of foreign born, exactly the kind of people she doesn't give a toss about.

I'm no fan of May's political ideology or approach to governing but I don't think that's fair. They're not the people in whose interests she acts but she'd have to be a very badly damaged example of humanity not to be touched by their plight and gripped by the horror of so many trapped and burning. She's an ambitious conservative with authoritarian leanings who's slightly out of her depth not a monster.
jk
1
jkarran - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> Corbyn is just trying to gain political capital out of a really grim situation. What exactly is Corbyns profession, training or field of expertise?

Listening to people and advocating for them which he apparently does very well.
jk
1
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> Listening to people and advocating for them which he apparently does very well.

> jk

Lets hope him and Lily Allen practice what they preach and take in a family each.
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paul__in_sheffield - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Without strategic or delivery responsibility JC and his buddies can indulge in showboating for the media, however my guess is that the PM was satisfying herself that resourcing and safety on the operation were sufficient, plus support for re-homing and delivering a public enquiry.
The PM however did not come across as sympathetic by not meeting with residents, early days yet though.
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stevieb - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> Lets hope him and Lily Allen practice what they preach and take in a family each.

You're better than this.
1
RomTheBear on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> I'm no fan of May's political ideology or approach to governing but I don't think that's fair. They're not the people in whose interests she acts but she'd have to be a very badly damaged example of humanity not to be touched by their plight and gripped by the horror of so many trapped and burning. She's an ambitious conservative with authoritarian leanings who's slightly out of her depth not a monster.

> jk

Well I'd like to agree with but after having followed quite closely what she's done at the home office for ten years, I have no doubt that she doesn't give a toss.
She's not a monster, just human, let's be honest, our empathy often doesn't extend to people we do not relate to. The problem is that she doesn't relate to a whole section of British society, those "citizens of the world" that she despises.


5
Moley on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> I'm no fan of May's political ideology or approach to governing but I don't think that's fair. They're not the people in whose interests she acts but she'd have to be a very badly damaged example of humanity not to be touched by their plight and gripped by the horror of so many trapped and burning. She's an ambitious conservative with authoritarian leanings who's slightly out of her depth not a monster.

> jk

Agreed.
Unfortunately in this day and age it is so easy to make political capital in the media (social media being a massive influence) out of everything and a willingness to do so. Which I fear does not bode well for the future, we need politicians to make correct decisions for the country and lead us, it isn't just looking good or smiling.
The way the public are swayed so quickly by the media (irrelevant of where we all are politically) is worrying and this point scoring over every event/disaster probably doesn't help.
1
jkarran - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> If he did it for genuine reasons, it wouldn't have been on camera.

Do you really think like this or is your cynicism and disdain affected, reserved for a select few? It must be miserable and exhausting being you if this is genuinely how you view the world.
jk
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> Do you really think like this or is your cynicism and disdain affected, reserved for a select few? It must be miserable and exhausting being you if this is genuinely how you view the world.


I think it's right to be cynical of MPs, to look through their gloss.
1
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to RomTheBear:

> . The problem is that she doesn't relate to a whole section of British society, those "citizens of the world" that she despises.

You can say the same with Corbyn, if you have studied, grafted, risked, sacrificed and eventually become wealthy, he despises you and would like to take that wealth.
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RomTheBear on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:
> You can say the same with Corbyn, if you have studied, grafted, risked, sacrificed and eventually become wealthy, he despises you and would like to take that wealth.

Possibly, although I wouldn't say that wanting to tax some a bit more can be put at the same level with breaking up families, kicking people out of the country for no reason, ignore their human rights, deny them access to the justice system etc etc...

But fundamentally I agree, whether it's Theresa May it Corbyn, they both have have very exclusive and narrow minded views.
Post edited at 10:26
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The New NickB - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

Lily Allen lives in the area and was helping residents from 2:30am on Wednesday morning. She is certainly doing more to help than you or I.
Andy Hardy on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> Fluff might gain votes but it won't change anything though.

Who is likely to be better motivated to change the status quo for the better? The one who is clearly more empathetic or the one who demonstrably lacks such empathy?

I'm not saying corbyn could organise a party in a brewery, but that he *looks* like he would try harder than the maybot.
1
David Martin - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to jkarran:

> Do you really think like this or is your cynicism and disdain affected, reserved for a select few? It must be miserable and exhausting being you if this is genuinely how you view the world.

I can see a point here. There do seem to be a fair few photo ops being taken, hard not to say there's a certain amount of PR work taking place. Certainly a hell of a lot of people are likely to be doing great work behind the scenes with not an second of media coverage being given.

Like the celebrities who donate millions to good causes but do so completely under the radar, it would be refreshing if a politician or celeb could help out in these sorts of disasters while shunning any sort of limelight or stirring up political point scoring.

neilh - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to The New NickB:

There were a whole host of names helping out, ranging from Jamie Oliver etc.Crikey even Adele was spotted.

Living in the area is a bit wide of the mark considering the huge disparity in a small area.

There was a heart rendering tale from the CEO of a large PR company who was trying to find a guy who lived in the block who was their security guy for 10 years who everybody knew.

These things touch people form all areas.
MG - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to David Martin:

> it would be refreshing if a politician or celeb could help out in these sorts of disasters while shunning any sort of limelight or stirring up political point scoring.

You would never know if this happened (it probably does), so how would it be refreshing?

David Martin - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to MG:

True. And it no doubt happens. Hence, when certain individuals seem intent on giving interviews or posing for photo ops, it puts the quiet behind the scenes work in perspective.
The New NickB - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to David Martin:

Given the media presence, I suspect it is near impossible be in attendance and not get photographed if you are a politician or a celebrity of some sort.
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> I'm not saying corbyn could organise a party in a brewery, but that he *looks* like he would try harder than the maybot.

His CV would suggest otherwise.
8
Tom Last - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

What's he supposed to do, refuse photos?

I'm a press photographer and if I were there and Jeremy Corbyn turned up at the scene I'd be taking photos whether I'd been briefed by his press office or otherwise. Would you prefer he stayed away entirely?
Andy Hardy on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:
Hence my emphasis on *looks*.

It's the perception that counts, you have to suspend your personal dislike of the man, and compare his interactions with the public and hers.
Post edited at 11:28
MonkeyPuzzle - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

Perhaps you could write a simple computer program to save yourself some effort on these threads. Just have a single hotkey for each of list of generic cliched Corbyn arguments: [Generic Corbyn comment A - "Politics of Envy"] etc. Worth thinking about.
1
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:
> Perhaps you could write a simple computer program to save yourself some effort on these threads. Just have a single hotkey for each of list of generic cliched Corbyn arguments: [Generic Corbyn comment A - "Politics of Envy"] etc. Worth thinking about.

It's a fair point. Corbyn has used one for years on his anti rich elite rants..... never missing a chance to drag it out. Although I think his might be more like one of those big rubber stamps and an ink pad.

As Lily Allen is 'local' it will be good when she houses a family. It will save them moving far from work, school etc..
Post edited at 12:57
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Rob Parsons on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:

> ... JC and his buddies can indulge in showboating for the media ...

Under the circumstances, a very nasty comment Paul.
2
Mr Lopez - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> If you have studied

(on an education largely paid for by the state),

> grafted

(when working meant secure long term contracts and suitable salaries)

> risked

(at a time when there was a working dignified welfare state you could fall back to if your 'risks' didn't go as planned preventing you from going homeless and depending on street begging or food banks for your family),

> sacrificed

(a fraction of what the current generation would have to sacrifice to obtain the same results)

> and eventually become wealthy

(thanks to those opportunities provided to you by the state and society at large),

and now you want to deprive the current and future generations of those very same opportunities you had so that you can keep more of your wealth, which is already a substantially larger chunk than the older generation could keep in order to provide you with those oportunities,

> he despises you

I wonder why...

6
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john arran - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> you have to suspend your personal dislike of the man

Do you realise who you're addressing this to? Hell would freeze over first.
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Or you could consider the opposite. Right now the UK has the lowest tax for generations yet the public expect it to provide the best of everything for them? Besides the past 40 or 50 years is largely irrelevant, it's the next 50 that should matter. No good looking back with anger.

I think everyone needs to pay more tax, telling the public the evil rich 5% should bankroll bankrupt UK is just buying cheap votes with false promises that can't be fulfilled on that level of tax take.

3
Sean Kelly - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:
It's not about hugs. It's about relating to the people of the country that you claim to represent. Corbyn was there when somebody from the government was not. She chose not to appear in any television debate during the recent election. During the Blitz, Churchill walked among the ruins and burning buildings and met his people, even famously doffing his hat on his walking cane. Even the London mayor Kahn , facing a very hostile crowd, turned out to look and listen. This will be her obituary.
It's amazing how short peoples memories are. When Attlee was Prime Minister, he was constantly ridiculed both in the press and Parliament, but today is considered the greatest of peacetime premiers.
Post edited at 19:28
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birdie num num - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Corbyn, man of the people, appeared on television the morning after Grenfell and placed the blame firmly on austerity and the Tory Party. Later he went and hugged the victims , leaving May with the rug pulled.
Man of the people or slick, cynical political operator? The man who will say anything to win a vote.
Untrustworthy, vain and slippery. A fence sitter when it suits and very able to capitalise on the politics of emotion.
A political opportunist of the worst kind.
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summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I was not and have not been discussing how good or bad May was on this thread. Merely that just because you time a few hugs for the camera, doesn't make Corbyn any more competent to be PM, it's just marketing. Just because he pretended to sit on the floor of a busy train, doesn't mean he knows what UK public transport is like for the masses etc..

He might say he relates to average joe, but only in the sense they have paid his very good salary for a very long time.
4
Ian McIntosh - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to birdie num num:

> Man of the people or slick, cynical political operator? The man who will say anything to win a vote.

> Untrustworthy, vain and slippery. A fence sitter when it suits and very able to capitalise on the politics of emotion.

> A political opportunist of the worst kind.

Oh, so he is now a slick political operator who sits on fences and not a hapless bumbler obsessed with protesting?
You Corbyn haters are all over the place.
3
birdie num num - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Ian McIntosh:

There really is no need to be defensive. It's an opinion not a papal bull.
I'm simply an observer, not a hater.
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Ian McIntosh - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to birdie num num:

> I'm simply an observer, not a hater.

This is simply observation: 'Untrustworthy, vain and slippery. ... A political opportunist of the worst kind'.

Not being defensive, I didn't vote for him.

wbo - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly: I guess most people see what they want to see.

FactorXXX - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to birdie num num:

Corbyn, man of the people, appeared on television the morning after Grenfell and placed the blame firmly on austerity and the Tory Party. Later he went and hugged the victims , leaving May with the rug pulled.
Man of the people or slick, cynical political operator? The man who will say anything to win a vote.
Untrustworthy, vain and slippery. A fence sitter when it suits and very able to capitalise on the politics of emotion.


Corbyn seems to be quickly turning into the very sort of politician that he said he was the alternative to.
4
Co1in H - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly: At the end of the day, when all is said and done, etc They are all soundbite grabbers and most of them are arses whatever their politics. May made a massive mistake going to the vote but she still has more seats than Corbyn, end of.

6
john arran - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Co1in H:

> At the end of the day, when all is said and done, etc They are all soundbite grabbers and most of them are arses whatever their politics. May made a massive mistake going to the vote but she still has more seats than Corbyn, end of.

I strongly suspect it's far from "end of" and that Tory leaders-in-waiting are sharpening their knives as we speak, waiting for their moment. I don't think she'll last more than a month - maybe not even a week.
1
Pete Pozman - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> Lets hope him and Lily Allen practice what they preach and take in a family each.

That would be shallow opportunism
2
Pete Pozman - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to FactorXXX:

He's right though isn't he? When I saw the images I said, what happened to the sprinkler system. It was inconceivable to me that there was nothing there. Time for May to shake that money tree at any rate.
1
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> He's right though isn't he? When I saw the images I said, what happened to the sprinkler system. It was inconceivable to me that there was nothing there. Time for May to shake that money tree at any rate.

Blair and Brown changed many of the fire service regulations over a decade ago. So not every problem can be blamed on the Tories.

As for who is specifically to blame here, perhaps the so called tolerant left need to wait for the investigation before inciting lynch mobs in town halls.
4
Lusk - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to FactorXXX:

> Corbyn seems to be quickly turning into the very sort of politician that he said he was the alternative to.

What, do you mean 'electable'
In reply to Pete Pozman:

The money tree's for the DUP
2
MG - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> He's right though isn't he? When I saw the images I said, what happened to the sprinkler system. It was inconceivable to me that there was nothing there.


You are aware there have been numerous similar fires in high rise building with sprinklers? May be they would have helped, maybe not.

2
Jack - on 16 Jun 2017
summo on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale:

> The money tree's for the DUP

Makes a change to the SNP ;)
2
FactorXXX - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Lusk:

What, do you mean 'electable'

If you can't beat them, join them...
Yanis Nayu - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Jack:

That made me cry my bloody eyes out.
1
Sean Kelly - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I wonder how many posters have actually been awoken at night to find their place on fire. How many have watched and heard somebody dying in such a fire. I can say yes to both and it's not something I want to go through again. Multiply that over a hundred times and our leaders need to show some compassion. Whatever you might think, Corbyn was at least there to show concern and support. Cynics obviously have their own agenda!
2
birdie num num - on 16 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> Cynics obviously have their own agenda!

Yes they do.
2
Moley on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> He's right though isn't he? When I saw the images I said, what happened to the sprinkler system. It was inconceivable to me that there was nothing there. Time for May to shake that money tree at any rate.

Fewer than 1% of tower blocks in UK have sprinkler systems. There's approx 4000 tower blocks in UK. Presumably some are even in Labour council areas (and shake their money trees)?

Suggestions please.
1
Lusk - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Moley:

> Suggestions please.

An end of relentless council funding cuts?
1
captain paranoia - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Moley:

> Fewer than 1% of tower blocks in UK have sprinkler systems.

Because our building regs have adopted an entirely different paradigm for coping with fire; to prevent the spread of fire, allowing the fire to be contained, and be dealt with by fire response teams.

That this valid philosophy has failed will be the subject of the enquiry; what caused the failure of that compartmentalisation strategy, and allowed the fire to spread so rapidly?

It looks, from footage of the fire, and the evidence of burnt external insulation cladding, that something has gone very wrong in this case. I suspect the cutting of corners, but I'll wait for the full investigation before I head for my pitchfork.
1
FactorXXX - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Lusk:

What, do you mean 'electable'

Does that mean, that Corbyn and his supporters think it's acceptable to adopt the techniques of other politicians/parties, no matter if it's contrary to their moral ideology to gain political purchase?
1
Jim C - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to MG:
> No, but it's part of it. It helps give sense of national unity and purpose at times of stress, as now. That's part of a leader's role.

With the country recently on terrorist security alerts, and as much as I can see reasons to criticise May there is no way the current PM would have been allowed to walk amongst a crowd like we saw, some were even agitating, and covering their identities . ( Corbyn can do what he wants)
Post edited at 02:05
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summo on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Lusk:

> An end of relentless council funding cuts?

Would agree, who funds the councils? Are they all in agreement? The 12 seats the Lib dems won as the only party advocating increasing tax to improve services, it would make me think people aren't willing to spend more, unless it's other people money?
2
Wainers44 - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Lusk:

> An end of relentless council funding cuts?

I don't disagree with the point in general, but what have you seen that makes this a factor in this awful fire? If you mean Council Building Control then they may or may not have been involved anyway as Approved Inspectors may have overseen the refurb.

I may be wrong but I thought I heard that the block was operated by a specially set up housing trust? If that was the case then their money would come from the Housing Corporation not the Council wouldn't it?

Councils generally are far less involved with actual housing provision in many areas than they used to be, so they are probably not the effective route for increased spending?
Ridge - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:
> Because our building regs have adopted an entirely different paradigm for coping with fire; to prevent the spread of fire, allowing the fire to be contained, and be dealt with by fire response teams.

> That this valid philosophy has failed will be the subject of the enquiry; what caused the failure of that compartmentalisation strategy, and allowed the fire to spread so rapidly?

> It looks, from footage of the fire, and the evidence of burnt external insulation cladding, that something has gone very wrong in this case. I suspect the cutting of corners, but I'll wait for the full investigation before I head for my pitchfork.

My thoughts exactly. We're being subjected to 24 hour rolling speculation by the mainstream media, plus a constant feed of what ranges from uninformed nonsense to moonhowling f*ckwittery on social media. Although the renowed fire engineer and forensics expert Lily Allen is on the case, like you I'd prefer a more considered approach to ensuring this doesn't happen again.
Post edited at 08:06
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The New NickB - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Wainers44:

The reason for the proliferation of these housing trusts or ALMO's is limitations on investment that local authorities can make in its housing stock, both because of the squeeze in local government finances, , but also legal restrictions. Essentially, the idea was better management and more access to grants and other funding. It's nothing new, I can remember stock transfers taking place in the late 90s although it does seem to have proliferated over the last decade. Results I would say are mixed.
1
The New NickB - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:

> Would agree, who funds the councils? Are they all in agreement? The 12 seats the Lib dems won as the only party advocating increasing tax to improve services, it would make me think people aren't willing to spend more, unless it's other people money?

That not quite true is it.
1
paul__in_sheffield - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Under the circumstances, a very nasty comment Paul.

Hi Rob, not intending to make a nasty comment, but it's very difficult to make any objective points in the UKC Labour echo chamber. This from a lifelong supporter of the societal benefits accrued from Labour govts. apologies if it came across as chippy.
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The New NickB - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to summo:
> Blair and Brown changed many of the fire service regulations over a decade ago. So not every problem can be blamed on the Tories.

Interesting comment, can you substantiate it in a way relevant to these events. I used to know the Deputy Chief Fire Officer for Lancashire and had a few long discussions with him about the changes in the fire service around 2007 and 2008. The changes were about an increased role in fire prevention, which struck me as a positive thing.

We know that the cuts have been felt in the fire service during 'austerity' with a number of London fire stations closing, but actually I have heard no critisism of the response time of the London fire service or there ability to mobilise large numbers of personnel, although the second of those things appears largely to be due to commitment and endurance of the firefighters that goes far, far beyond what they are contracted to do and at a risk to their own health and safety.
Post edited at 08:42
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summo on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to The New NickB:
It's true that following the strikes there was forced diversification, but also quite a large pay rise. Perhaps council tax etc should have risen to cover it, if people didn't want to see a reduction in cover?

I'll wait for the verdict on this incident. As building regs and inspection of might be more critical than fire cover.

Everyone expects the best, the best costs and sadly people have potentially paid with their lives through no choice of their own.
Post edited at 09:25
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Ridge - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to The New NickB:

> We know that the cuts have been felt in the fire service during 'austerity' with a number of London fire stations closing, but actually I have heard no critisism of the response time of the London fire service or there ability to mobilise large numbers of personnel, although the second of those things appears largely to be due to commitment and endurance of the firefighters that goes far, far beyond what they are contracted to do and at a risk to their own health and safety.

The response to this event from the London Fire Service and the Ambulances was superb, as was the Police response in this and previous terrorist incidents. But as you say, that masks the level of cuts to the services.

Despite the cuts in London, we need to remember the capital is still well resourced compared to the rest of the country. There's no way that level of response could be acheived for a similar fire in Carlisle or York.
Thrudge on 17 Jun 2017
Corbyn has a history of cosying up to terrorists:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11749043/Andrew-Gilligan-Jeremy-Corbyn-friend-to-Ham...

But he looks sad when people die in a fire, so let's make him Prime Minister.
12
Offwidth - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to paul__in_sheffield:
"in the UKC Labour echo chamber."

Thats ridiculous. Speaking as a liberal I'd say centrist liberal views are over represented here compared to public debate. I also think there is currently a much higher proportion of right wing views being expressed here than at any previous time in the history of the site (much more than I hear from climbers in person) . I think you are lazily blaming UKC for the more averagely leftist position of climbers compared to the general public. As a tribe we are sometimes very unrepresentative of public views....go remind yourself of the UKB poll on brexit:

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,26815.0/topicseen.html
Post edited at 11:29
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Yanis Nayu - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

I don't like May, I think she's a poor PM and her response to this tragedy in a human sense hasn't been the best. But in terms of the political causes of the fire, she's well down the list of architects in the current and previous govt. Cameron, Osbourne, Johnson, Barwell - their roles need to be scrutinised in mo opinion. I can understand her response to the fire, although it was clearly unwise, but I think the focus on her and the way she has handled it is missing the point by a mile, and the current media frenzy over her is beginning to sit rather uncomfortably with me.
1
bruce - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to Sean Kelly:

Here here. Corbyn is sound.
Just portrayed in a bad light by the right wing media and television.
2
john arran - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to bruce:

Corbyn seems to me to have risen to the occasion during the last year or so. Maybe it's partly my perception as a result of distorting media coverage, but it definitely seems like he's far more statesmanlike and personable than he ever appeared before. May, on the other hand, seems to have been promoted leagues above her comfort zone or competence, and doesn't seem to be showing any signs of learning to cope with her new responsibilities.
baron - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to john arran:
Mr Corbyn always came across as an old school Labour leader as opposed to the New Labour Tory lite politicians of recent years.
He seemed to be damned as much by his own MPs as by the media.
He does offer an alternative to the middle of the road politics espoused by most politicians.
There is much to like in his recent manifesto.
Mrs May is an embarrassment both to the Conservative party and to female politicians in general.
john arran - on 17 Jun 2017
In reply to baron:

From my perspective he never came across as a leader at all, just a principled but unelectable politician. It's his leadership skills that seem to have improved immeasurably recently.
FactorXXX - on 18 Jun 2017
In reply to john arran:

From my perspective he never came across as a leader at all, just a principled but unelectable politician. It's his leadership skills that seem to have improved immeasurably recently.

As I said earlier in the thread, maybe he's becoming the very politician that he was supposedly the antidote to...
1
john arran - on 18 Jun 2017
In reply to FactorXXX:

> As I said earlier in the thread, maybe he's becoming the very politician that he was supposedly the antidote to...

With that kind of logic you're sure to be able to find a way to object to him regardless of what he says or what he does.

From my perspective I'd give credit where credit's due. He started his leadership with very poor performances at PMQ and in media opportunities, and in the latter at least he's improved enormously.
BnB - on 18 Jun 2017
In reply to john arran:

> With that kind of logic you're sure to be able to find a way to object to him regardless of what he says or what he does.

> From my perspective I'd give credit where credit's due. He started his leadership with very poor performances at PMQ and in media opportunities, and in the latter at least he's improved enormously.

He most certainly has. But until he has tried to deal with multiple civilian deaths from a variety of causes that, no matter what the real reason, everyone is trying to pin on him while initiating the most complex minefield of a negotiation that he already knows can only please a small proportion of the population while disappointing the majority and all on the back of a bruising election that he won but everyone says he lost, then the notion that hugging a few strangers makes Corbyn fit to be PM simply because he appears nicer than the leader of the nasty party even though there's a nasty whiff of anti-semitism that haunts his leadership is a leap of such blind faith that I despair.

This isn't by any means an endorsement of TM's hapless media performance. She needs to wise up and fast. But outperforming her isn't much of an achievement is it? Like Gordon Brown without the easy charm.
3
Greenbanks - on 18 Jun 2017
In reply to BnB:

<on the back of a bruising election that he won but everyone says he lost>
Have you got that bit right??

And regarding May's media performances, I was at a family event yesterday; one attendee is a significant figure in the higher command of the Met. S/he indicated that May's private persona was cold and one-dimensional and 'difficult'. This was a view expressed directly in his/her pre-meeting briefing advice from a senior civil servant prior to a first contact with May. Few who come in contact with her find her either talented or easy to relate to - much-needed characteristics of a PM

john arran - on 18 Jun 2017
In reply to BnB:

> This isn't by any means an endorsement of TM's hapless media performance. She needs to wise up and fast. But outperforming her isn't much of an achievement is it?

I think we have something we can all agree on ;-)
ads.ukclimbing.com
TobyA on 18 Jun 2017
In reply to BnB:

I have no interest in defending May from a political point of view, but she visited the site before Corbyn didn't she? There is a possibility that on the back to taking a sort of drubbing in the election which only further polarized people on top of the EU referendum, and then with the ongoing anguish of the family and friends of the people who were still at that time missing - possibly dead but possibly in hospital - May and her advisors thought the last thing the survivors want is a politician (who realistically, few of people in that area are likely to have supported) turning up and trying to hug them in front of cameras. She met the fire chiefs, police and medics on scene which I guess is vaguely meant to look like she is coordinating the state's response. We have the Queen to as head of state to personify the nation's sympathy.

Corbyn's team saw how well the optics were for May so did something different.

More generally, my dad was for a long time the deputy head of housing for large British city, then did a lot of work (I think mainly for the professional organization of Environmental Health Officers) on safety and standards on private rented accommodation (and he is still involved in the housing field despite supposedly being retired!) - so I've heard for many decades rather informed views on what has happened to public/social housing provision in the UK. It has never sounded particularly happy, and I think it's hard to fathom the depth of cuts to local government funding since 2010 for those not employed in that sector.
Shani - on 18 Jun 2017
In reply to BnB:

> She needs to wise up and fast. But outperforming her isn't much of an achievement is it?

Wasn't his was exactly the rationale against JC not so long ago?
David Martin - on 18 Jun 2017
In reply to TobyA:
Agree. The all out attack on May seems pretty distasteful. She's frosty and socially awkward, no doubt. But I thought these days we were supposed to accept people's personality flaws, be they on the autistic spectrum or a product of a cold Victorian style upbringing.

If she had played a different sort of media game on turning up at the site of the fire she would have been pilloried for sure and her behaviour is being used for endless point-scoring.

I can't stand the woman, and have long considered her a nasty piece of works who should be nowhere near the levers of power. But the opportunism and vitriol being freely thrown in her direction, as if she started the fire herself, is absurd.
Post edited at 13:00

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