UKC

Being a frequent user of trekking poles I do find one problem with them. When one is walking over mixed terrain I find there are often situations in which you might need to use them and then, having unstowed them from the sides of your rucksack, about half an hour later you reach a scrambly bit. However, not being a long "pitch" you figure that in a few minutes you are going to need the poles again. Obviously it's a pain taking your sack off to re-stow them only to have to reverse the process a short time later.

Has anyone got a solution to this?

In reply to mypyrex:

Telescope them down to a shorter length and stuff them handgrip-down between your pack and your back - as people do with ice axes. Not particularly comfortable, but ok for a short time and leaves your hands free.

In reply to mypyrex:

Assuming you are wearing a rucksack, half down my back/under one shoulder strap, sticking out/up to one side.

(Caveat - I don't use poles in summer but this is what I do skiing/ski touring)

In reply to andyjohnson0 & galpinos:

Thanks for the suggestions. Sounds reasonable.

In reply to mypyrex:
If with others, get them to stow them and you for them.
If not or alone done several ways for short periods (not saying all are that comfortable though); always shorten and stow as you do with an ice axe temporarily between the shoulder blades and out the side of the back, but either insert up with handle rather than down as with ice axe, or if handle down push down with point remaining up; or across back of shoulders under rucksac straps; across lower back under rucksac resting on waist belt; hang shortened clipped to upper straps of rucksac and hold snug under waist belt making sure the points are held out of the way on the sides or just round the back.

All above have worked but you do have to watch where the points go and could go as much for you as others near by.

In reply to mypyrex:

When going downhill if its a scrabbly step I just chuck the poles down and collect them at the bottom. Not as effective going up though..

In reply to mypyrex:
My osprey has a loop system on the left side for this purpose, personally though I almost never use it as I find the poles are perpectly aligned to chafe against my contraceptive implant.

Other half uses a krab on one shoulder for the wrist loop and then secures the other end through the waistband do create the same effect. Not sure it would work so well if you have hips, but works for him.

In reply to mypyrex:

I have joined the poles using the straps and then drapped over my backpack so the poles hang down the sides

In reply to mypyrex:
I agree with you, they can be a bloody nuisance when you are scrambling, and I always feel a bit silly clicking along a road with them.

In reply to mypyrex:

I've never managed to find a perfect solution to how to stow them. But I have got more efficient in that I spend less time stowing them, and then getting them ready to use.
Somewhat paradoxically, my reluctance to stow them away on every section of broken ground or scramble I encounter has probably improved my balance. Using poles to negotiate such ground has led to a reduction in resorting to hand holds.

In reply to llechwedd:

Bin them ! Can't stand the constant clicking sound they make !

Seems today to be part of the "perfect hillwalkers kit" like having more clothing layers than f****** puff pastry !

Back to basics !

In reply to mypyrex:

Carry in one hand assuming the ground is negotiable with 3 points of contact (most stuff is when walking) for brief sections; if a long scramble bit is looming, fold them up and slip down the compression straps on your pack.

The old "ice axe between the shoulder straps" trick doesn't work well with poles, alas.

llechwedd's point is a good one. Using poles doesn't help with your own inherent sense of balance - if anything it allows you to get away with worse balance than before. Carrying them loosely in one hand on scrambles actually seems to improve footwork and balance.

Most 'clean' mountain packs have adequate options for storage, possibly in the ice axe straps but more usually down the sides. Some bumbly packs have specific pole holders but next stop is membership of the Rambler's Association....

b

In reply to mypyrex:

For short sections of scrambling I put my hands through the wrist loops and let the poles dangle - they get in the way a bit but if it's only brief then it doesn't matter too much. However, in general I find that once I get to a scrambly section, the terrain is such that I no longer need poles.

PS those who think they're unnecessary are generally either young, or very lucky with the state of their aging knees!

In reply to ben b:


Having suggested this up thread, I'd say that while it works it gets uncomfortable pretty quickly.

Re balance, I agree with you. Although I carry two poles (my shelter uses them) I actually only walk with one, and the other one stays on the side of my rucksack. Mainly because being a tripod is very stable but still requires me to use my balance. Also, when I've tried walking with two poles I've found them hard to coordinate and tripped over the ends...

So far by 50 year-old knees seem to be ok with one pole.

In reply to mypyrex:

I have a loop of bungee on the shoulder strap of my rucksack, useful for holding all sorts of stuff. And another one with a small hook on the end (from B&Q) that I put on the compression strap. Push the handles in the shoulder loop and rap the other one around the poles and hook it back on it's self. The poles hang under the arm out the way. I don't bother with poles on day walks only when carrying a heavy pack I haven't noticed any lose of balance yet and I've been using them for years.

In reply to Jenny C:



I achieve a similar effect on my non-osprey rucksacks sometimes by clipping the hand loops through the sternum strap and poking the points under the shoulder straps by my side. It's not quite as good, but it does the job for a short stretch.

In reply to mypyrex:

For grade 1 and short bits of grade 2 ground, I just carry them in one hand, and use the other on the rock.

For longer/harder bits, I collapse them then join them together with their straps (easy with mine, as they have elasticated straps with toggles). I can then drape them over the top of the rucksack straps, between my shoulders and the pack, with one pole hanging down each side of me, and tuck the tips into the waistbelt of my rucksack. It keeps them in place, it's quite quick to get at, and they don't stick out.

In reply to andyjohnson0:
>> The old "ice axe between the shoulder straps" trick doesn't work well with poles, alas.


That was pretty much my definition of "doesn't work well": it works uncomfortably

I'd suggest two groups of people get the most benefit from poles: those carrying big packs (where stability is enhanced and some of the effort is transferred to the arms rather than being entirely up to the core muscles and legs) and those with shot knees etc (where every little bit of relief helps).

Ninnying around with a daypack weighing 3kg, usually without using the wrist straps at all, is a waste of money and effort unless carrying some degree of injury IMO. In fact I'm often surprised how few people actually use poles in a manner that allows them to work (i.e. wrists "up and through" with a tight leash in ascent, and "palming" on descent). It's a bit like holding an ice axe at the top of the shaft without a leash: remarkably inefficient going up or down until the hand goes over the head or wrist applies traction along the strap.

Interesting ideas re the bungee etc. Will have a think about practicalities. I wonder if a 12"x4" sewn velcro flap (hooks inside, and a strip for closure) on the side of the pack teamed with a furry pole (ooer) could allow rapid secure storage without catching too much wildlife / vegetation / snow - if the closed flap is cylindrical, it would hold the poles well even if collapsed in 3 (z-poles)....

Cheers
b

In reply to Pyreneenemec:

They are useful on river crossings or in the event of twisted ankles/ knees etc. Sometimes good on boggy ground too for testing depth etc.

I often don't carry them on my own, but do if I am leading groups etc.

Totally agree about balance, some people panic when I suggest that they are not a good idea on boulder fields.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Good point re river crossings.

I should clarify "balance" - they are good for balance in the sense of not falling over despite rough ground. They aren't good for the intrinsic sense of balance - a mixture of inner ear function, cerebellar function and joint proprioception [i.e. awareness of position of self in space] signals that feed back ultimately to various muscles to keep "steady" despite rough ground, looking up and around etc. Presumably because you can "get away with more" and are less reliant on your intrinsic sense of balance.

Someone should do an "eyes closed standing on one leg" time study of habitual pole users vs non pole-users

cheers

b

In reply to ben b:

Some good points, but it's perfectly possible to make efficient use of a pole without using the wrist loops. I rarely use them, particularly in ascent where the angle changes so I need to switch between holding the head and shaft of the pole.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:
Fair enough. Possibly your poles are a little long if you need to change that often? But I suspect you have done way more than I in the hills, so I'm not suggesting you suck any eggs, grandma

Obviously until the self expanding pole is perfected* there will always be a little room for changing with the slope angle, but biomechanically the advantage gained by using the leash is much greater than ending up with 'death grip' on a wet shaft (you at the back - stop it!). A well adjusted wrist strap takes much of the weight on ascent, and thumb and forefinger only rest lightly on the pole, to prevent twisting/slippage.

Thinking about it, on scrambly sections I usually hold the poles horizontally in their mid section in one hand; when transitioning back to pole usage I might hold the shaft about half to two thirds of the way up e.g. when scraping out of the walls of a deep grassy gully or something. But as soon as I'm back to normal terrain of whatever steepness it's back on with the wrist straps for me. Still, I never got my head around leashless tools - that's the whole point of a leash, to take your weight onto the axe/pole rather than relying on grip.

Someone will get an MSc out of this thread one day

cheers

b

* current models probably wouldn't be universally held up as "perfection"

In reply to ben b:

Actually I use fixed length poles that are one size too small for me given the manufacturer's recommendation! But it's the result of many years of trial and error, I've just found an arrangement that suits me. The main problem is that I put so much force through the poles that instead of sore knees I end up with sore elbow...

In reply to mypyrex:

You might not find this very helpful because it's radical, but I'll suggest it anyway.

I used to use poles a lot, in fact, lets say habitually! I suffered the same dilemma as you, which really did force a rethink to their entire worth. I first began looking at the planning of any walk in greater detail, deciding if the poles were more of a hindrance than a help. In some cases it became clear that they would be mostly useless and occasionally more of a danger than anything.

In the end I came to the conclusion that it was better to wean myself off poles altogether by strengthening my body to such an extent where they weren't required and ended up just being a burden of awkwardness and extra weight. As a result I no longer use them at all, and therefore don't suffer the same problem.

Although this solution may not be suitable for you. I hope it allows someone else who may habitually use walking poles to reconsider the need to use them at all. In my opinion, stopping using them was, in a small sense, liberating!

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


Aha! That's because you're not using the wrist strap right

Still, you whupped our sorry backsides on the Score last month so probably not a huge issue....

cheers

b

In reply to ben b:




It can be argued that whilst a healthy individual is growing (and maturing their sense of balance), frequent pole use ( i.e. a more generous base of support) will shield the developing neuromusculoskeletal system from the perturbations of balance which would otherwise be experienced over uneven ground.
Take the poles away, and that pole user may not cope as well as someone similar who has frequently gone over the same ground without poles. Their intrinsic balance is therefore impoverished.
This is not the scenario played out by most hillgoing pole users.

The majority of hillgoers are urban adult 'plodders'. Discounting the use of poles for offloading the joints of those carrying excessive weight, with some of those we meet -poles clacking as they walk along the easy, level ground- it's sometimes difficult to see why they need to use them. Sure, you could tell them 'you don't need this level of support, you're impoverishing your intrinsic balance capabilities', but are they?
If, because of consumer choice, they see poles as necessary for getting out, then probably this 'getting out', this increased activity will maintain their balance above that of an otherwise sedentary person without poles.

Then there are the loose category of more 'sporty' looking hillgoers who appear able to move, no better than unremarkably, over broken ground. Some of them may have poles. They don't appear to move fluidly.
Within this group, there will be the 'all the gear, no idea' people who buy kit such as poles to convince themselves and to show off to others how seriously they take their mountaineering.
I guess it can be argued that some of them might enhance their intrinsic balance capacity if they ditched the poles. But we'll never know, as they are pole users.

Then there are another subgroup of pole users, myself among them. Generally a bit older. probably with one or two age related joint wear and tear issues, but differing from the plodders in their ease of rapid mobility over complex terrain. This group can only do this because they use poles frequently.
'Ah, but they're they are only balancing in the sense of not falling over despite rough ground. Their poles aren't good for the intrinsic sense of balance ' ...
I disagree.
My intrinsic balance would be at a much lower level nowadays, were it not for pole use, something I only came to in my fifties, and then, because I thought it would be nice to walk, from my house, over all the British 3000's. This choice to use poles was not just because of load carrying. It was because I have joints in my foot that don't move well. Had I not taken poles, I would have negotiated some ground more cautiously. In using poles day in, day out, combined with the fitness gained, I began to move quicker and more efficiently than I had done in my 20's, 30's and 40's. Poles extended the sort of terrain I was able to move rapidly and efficiently over. I began to choose sightlines to bomb over which I would never have attempted before at that pace, even unladen.
In doing so I enhanced my intrinsic balance capabilities. Nowadays, take away the poles, and I can still tackle more complex ground than I did before their use. Slower than with the poles, but still..
So, quite categorically I can state that poles do not always impoverish your intrinsic balance.

Regarding your suggestion for a comparative study, people who use poles do so for a variety of reasons. Some of them may use them because they have e.g. a functional joint problem. If they have a functional joint problem, then their capacity for standing on one leg may be affected.

In reply to llechwedd:

Really interesting points and a great trip, thanks for posting.

I think we are probably both at danger of generalising our personal experiences at the expense of introducing confirmation bias. I'd suggest your level of activity is almost certainly orders of magnitude different from the majority of casual hill users, as described in your second paragraph. But it is likely that the overall benefit (getting out on the hill) outweighs the possible decrease in proprioception and balance, as you point out. That's not the same as saying it doesn't have an adverse effect on intrinsic balance, just that there is a net benefit - across the population rather than necessarily in every individual. Some will get better, some will get worse, and a method for predicting who gets what would be interesting.

Your individual circumstances and experiences are really interesting but confounded by increasing activity. We would have to have two large groups and randomise them into doing your walk either with or without poles, carefully measuring baseline demographics (including prior pole use etc) and getting a big enough sample that the groups are adequately matched, and then measuring again at the end of the walk and controlling for variables like age, gender (carrying angles being different in women vs men etc), BMI, injury patterns, probably footwear etc.

It sounds like a fine study and if you can get funding I'd like to be in it please

Thanks for posting

Cheers

b

In reply to mypyrex:

For me poles make a decent bit of difference when going down steep paths with knee-high steps, especially long (1000m) sequences in the alps, or on boulders. They help on those terrain types because you can place a pole or two in front of you, put some weight on it/them and allow you to place your next step 'slowly' under control instead of making a step which you have to 'land' correctly at speed. I'm bloody good at crossing boulders having grown up fishing on boulder beaches and poles make things significantly safer, especially with a heavy pack. Going uphill or along good flat paths they're not so useful. I put my hands down through the wrist loops which I make small and use them to support my weight - my grip on the handle is purely to direct the pole where I want it to go. I often find myself with my hands open and the handle resting in the v of my thumbs.
The best way to cross rocky ground is to put your feet in corners so there's nowhere for them to slide to, or on edges which they can pivot over. Placing a foot on a flat bit of slopey rock is asking for a slip.

In reply to all:
Thanks for the many useful suggestions. I think I've sorted it with one of these:

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1e6bgHVXXXXa2aXXXq6xXFXXXY/off-road-walking-s...

attached to the hip belt with a cable tie. A carabiner on the opposite shoulder (strap)to which the wrist loops are attached. The shafts of the poles then clip into the thingumyjig and the poles are stowed diagonally across the chest until required.

In reply to mypyrex:
For short easy steps, I'll let the poles dangle from my wrists, hand them to someone else in the party, or hold them both with one hand. Depends on where I am and the difficulty of the scrambling. For longer sections, I'll fold them up and put them under the backpack's compression straps. Taking them on and off the backpack takes about 20 seconds -- it doesn't add too much faff to your day.

I'm stuck with hiking poles, as I go pretty hopping lame when not using them. Eight or nine years ago, my attempt at a winter ascent of the CMD Arete without poles led to me backing off after hobbling to the summit of Carn Mor Dearg and being laid up for the rest of the winter. A friend told me I shouldn't carry them in winter because I had an ice axe and it being my first Scottish winter season, I listened to her. As useful as ice axes are for many things, they don't do you a damn bit of good walking up easy, but uphill ground like the North Face track or Carn Mor Dearg. Decided afterwards that the extra weight of poles and ice axe was worth it, because getting up the mountain is always a nice thing to manage when you're mountaineering.