/ Now get out of that...

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.
Jim Walton on 27 Jun 2017

Imagine the following realistic scenario and say how you would get out of it (and get your mate out of it).

You are abseiling into a sea cliff on a dedicated abseil rope. The anchor is Good, three points equalised to a single point, abseil rope clipped to it using a standard fig 8 on a bight.

Your mate has gone down first and has taken both ropes down with him, you are at the top waiting. You manage to knock a rock off which hits your mate whilst he's about 30m down. Breaks his shoulder. He's swung out into mid air! Conscious and not bleeding but can't climb back up the rope.

You have a normal sea cliff rack. You have prusiks, slings, a dmm revolver, I'll also give you a micro traxion if you think it would help, wires, hexes, friends, screwgate etc.

The main issues are your friend is hanging on a loaded abseil rope with no spare rope in the system. Your mate has the climbing ropes. How do you get him up to you with the kit you've got.

Go.
Post edited at 18:31
pec on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Reverse prussik down the abseil rope to him. Either prussick back up with him attached via your lower leg prussick so your legs lift the weight of 2 people or retrieve the ropes attaching him to one of them and prussick back up before setting up a pulley system to haul him up.
Alternatively run to somewhere with a phone signal and call for rescue!
Fraser on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Assuming I have a mobile reception, I'd ring round some other friends and see who else is available to climb that day, using their own ropes.




Did I win?
SenzuBean - on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

You could set up a quick haul system (using prusiks only) to get a few cms of slack in the top of the ab-rope, then using that slack turn it into a proper hauling system, and pull him up.
Jim Walton on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to SenzuBean:

Could you expand on how you would get the haul set up?
Jim Walton on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Fraser:

And we have a winner.
andyjohnson0 - on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to pec:

Prussik up 30 metres with the weight of two people?
SenzuBean - on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

> Could you expand on how you would get the haul set up?

I'd do:

1) Attach close to the anchor (with enough room behind for you to attach a pulley/guide plate) a very, very beefy Klemheist. Perhaps two. This/these is the ratchet prusik.
2) Attach further down another prusik, which using a long sling (or chain of slings). can be redirected through a carabiner at the master point. Attach the end that has been redirected to your belay loop, and using body weight / leg strength pull the weighted rope up higher, and push down the ratchet prusik to grip. Test very carefully that it grips.
3) Once you get enough slack (enough to form a small bight), you can put this through a guide plate, and attach the guide plate to the anchor. Load the redirected sling, and you should be able to remove your ratchet prusik, and the guide plate is now your ratchet.
4) Pull in more rope until you can attach the rope exiting the guide plate to the far down prusik (forming a pulley). This is now a normal haul setup.
ollyroberts - on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Set up a Spanish Pendulum ;)
Andy Peak 1 - on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:
If your on top of a single pitch crag with other people about, just get 6 or more people to pull on the rope don't forget a prusick atached to the anchors incase it goes tits up. This is a lot quicker than halling.

davidbeynon on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to ollyroberts:

Is that the one with the big blade on the bottom?
andyjohnson0 - on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

> How do you get him up to you with the kit you've got.

You don't. He's conscious and not bleeding, so not in imminent danger. Shout down to him to tie-off his abseil device, then you phone the police and ask for coastguard rescue.
Toerag - on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to andyjohnson0:

> Shout down to him to tie-off his abseil device

......and rig a chest harness so he doesn't invert if he passes out. He should actually be able to prussik out himself, it's only one arm he can't use.

Toerag - on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Andy Peak 1:

> If your on top of a single pitch crag with other people about, just get 6 or more people to pull on the rope don't forget a prusick atached to the anchors incase it goes tits up. This is a lot quicker than halling.

You won't be able to haul him 30m without stopping unless your anchor is 30m back (unlikely), so a prussik on the anchor is essential.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Andy Peak 1 - on 27 Jun 2017
In reply to Toerag:

I think you may have misunderstood I apologise for not being clear, the anchors can be quite close to the edge, once you have a bit of slack in the system created by the hords of pullers that you have enlisted for this task, one person can attach a prusick to the rope in front of the team attached to a big sling and clipped back to the anchors, then you can commence pulling making sure the front person in the team pushes the prusick forward.
If you didn't have any gear with you you wold just get your victim to tie off his plate and if you drop him then should just fall into space, terfied and a bit beaten up but not dead
If somebody can get a car near that wold be even better attach strait to that and go.
Ciro - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Andy Peak 1:

> If you didn't have any gear with you you wold just get your victim to tie off his plate and if you drop him then should just fall into space, terfied and a bit beaten up but not dead

A 30m factor 1 on a semi-static abseil rope? I think "victim" was a pretty appropriate choice of word there :D
Andy Peak 1 - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Ciro:

He dident say anything about is being a statick, he sed dedicated abseil rope! Could be dynamic, and if not wold probably still be ok despite the higher forces. the idea is you don't let go.
If I was in trouble I'd want my climbing partner to assess the situation and do the best they can in the circumstances, this may be a standard hall, calling the coast gard or any veration you can think off ther is no write anser it depends on the situation.
Misha - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:
If you're abbing in, presumably you're abbing into a ledge or a hanging stance . Sometimes if it's an overhanging abseil you have to place gear and clip in as you go but that's pretty rare. So assuming there's a ledge to aim for, your partner can descend to it and take their weight off the rope (trickier if it's a hanging stance but should still be possible to set up with one arm). You'll then have slack to set up a pulley system. Of course communication might be nigh on impossible.
doz on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

easy - cut the rope- shock of the cold water should wake them up.....
Trangia on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Burst into tears and blame the Tories?
planetmarshall on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Cut the rope. Now it's the Coastguard's problem.
Jim Walton on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Andy Peak 1:

I'm looking for a self sufficient solution if possible.
George Fisher - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Get him to tie off. Send food and water down the rope in a rucksack clipped to the line with one of your screwgates.

His shoulder should heal in 5-6 weeks then he can self rescue. You could check on him every week or so and offer encouragement, a positive mental state may help the healing process.

timjones - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

A standard sea clif rack?

Easy

My standard rack always includes a 7 metre cordalette made up of unknotted 6mm cord. I'd use that to set up a simple hauling system and switch to using the rope when I had generated enough slack to do so.
Lemony - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

> I'm looking for a self sufficient solution if possible.

If you want a self sufficient solution it's up to him. I'd nip to the pub.
andyjohnson0 - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Toerag:

> He should actually be able to prussik out himself, it's only one arm he can't use.

The scenario mentions a "broken shoulder", so any arm-movement would probably be very painful. To me that rules-out him prussiking.
andyjohnson0 - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to timjones:
> My standard rack always includes a 7 metre cordalette made up of unknotted 6mm cord. I'd use that to set up a simple hauling system and switch to using the rope when I had generated enough slack to do so.

Care to say more, as I know next to nothing about building hauling systems? I recall seeing a video that showed a 5:1 system built from a cordalette, a tibloc and three krabs. Is that the kind of setup you mean?

Edit: Might have been this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af_Z2Y4GBm4
Post edited at 11:37
Rigid Raider - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

A hauling system such as is used in crevasse rescue is fine in theory but nobody has mentioned getting the victim over the edge and onto level ground. One human being simply doesn't have the strength to lift an incapable person like that and after an hour or two of faffing and pulling ropes then rearranging them you'd be exhausted.

Best option is to reassure the bloke then go for help or call Coastguard. It would need a winch and gantry or a chopper to get him off the cliff.
ads.ukclimbing.com
drunken monkey - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Pass him/her down an Ipod with one song on it. "Brown Girl in the ring by Boney M" - then go to the pub for 36 hrs
nniff - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Take one of your prusiks apart to make 30m of string. Clip one end of the string to the ab rope and lower it down with the Revolver. Bring up the two loose ends of one of the ropes he has with him. He clips into the middle of this big loop using the Revolver and pulls down as far as he is able on one side (which is attached as the top) while you get your legs stuck into lifting him on the other with a 2:1 hoist using your belay plate and whatever prusik arrangement you deem necessary.

It's the only way i've ever managed to haul a free hanging body any distance (from below the overhang to the belay ledge on Billy Pig at Swanage - don't ask). All a five to one does is stretch your cord and make no worthwhile impression on your hanging body, especially if there is any sort of friction over the edge, which there will be.

If this doesn't work, he can shoot himself with the revolver......
Toerag - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Andy Peak 1:

> I think you may have misunderstood I apologise for not being clear, the anchors can be quite close to the edge, once you have a bit of slack in the system created by the hords of pullers that you have enlisted for this task, one person can attach a prusick to the rope in front of the team attached to a big sling and clipped back to the anchors, then you can commence pulling making sure the front person in the team pushes the prusick forward.

You didn't get what I mean when I said you can't haul them up 30m without a prusik - the haulers will pull up a loop of slack between the belay and edge which will soon become tight to the belay before the casualty has been pulled all the way up thus requiring a 'hand over hand' haul. Even 6 people pulling hand over hand will struggle to haul someone out without risking dropping them, then there's getting them over the edge to think about too.

> If you didn't have any gear with you you wold just get your victim to tie off his plate and if you drop him then should just fall into space, terfied and a bit beaten up but not dead

> If somebody can get a car near that wold be even better attach strait to that and go.
This is better, the car will be tied to the rope and cannot let go. You just have to make sure it can't roll back, and that you can drive off slow enough to not cause problems should something snag up.

Toerag - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to pec:
> Reverse prussik down the abseil rope to him.

How easy is it to prusik on a loaded rope? Jumars will work, but prusiks may not. How will you get the prusiks / jumars over the edge with weight on the rope?
Post edited at 12:07
summo on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Toerag:

> How easy is it to prusik on a loaded rope? Jumars will work, but prusiks may not.

Prusiks will work fine.

> How will you get the prusiks / jumars over the edge with weight on the rope?

You have prusiks above and below when the rope is loaded over the edge, to protect you as you go over, or make a foot loop. I'd be inclined to protect the edge though.

If he is not in danger why go to him? Better to just hoist him upto you.
timjones - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to andyjohnson0:

> Care to say more, as I know next to nothing about building hauling systems? I recall seeing a video that showed a 5:1 system built from a cordalette, a tibloc and three krabs. Is that the kind of setup you mean?

> Edit: Might have been this video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af_Z2Y4GBm4

That looks very similar but I would suggest starting with a 3 to 1 and only moving to a 5 to 1 if you're going nowhere.
GrahamD - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Calling coastguard has to be your piority. Almost certainly easier to lower him to a boat or winch him to a helicopter. If he is passing out or inverting you might then need to prussic down the rope to assist
abseil on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

> Imagine the following realistic scenario and say how you would get out of it....

1. go to fish and chip shop. Eat [sea cliffs are cold. Got to keep strength up]
2. relax
3. hope your friend is all right
4. move on in life

Sorry
summo on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to abseil:

5. Write a book about it.
6. Do the lecture circuit
Dave Perry - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:
"Look Jim, its really good of you to post others for all these helpful suggestions but I'm getting cold now and the smell of your fish'n chips is driving me crazy (even if they are cold)".

"Can you just cut this "I've got the BMC lads looking into this", crap and just call the coastguard please!!!!"
Post edited at 14:05
oldie - on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

A solution would depend on the geometry of the anchor system eg is the anchor in a rock wall above a good starting ledge (good), or on stakes with the rope running taut and flat against the ground (very difficult).
Hopefully the victim would have had a french prusik backup or similar and be able to back this up by eg overhand on bight in free rope clipped to belay rope (not easy one-handed, teeth useful). Possibly wrapping rope several times round leg and clipping hanging part through a krab top harness to stop this untwisting would be OK. If no safety prusik the previously mentioned reverse prusik by the rescuer from the top might be necessary to secure them, though they might be able to manage leg wraps by sliding braking hand down rope and bending leg. Continuing down to any knot at the end of the rope would obviously involve much more lifting later.
Various techniques for hoisting large deadweights are in instruction books (readily available in this situation of course!) involving pulley systems and alpine clutches or friction knots to prevent rope pulled in from sliding back. Lifting 30m would not be easy (understatement): a method involving leg thrusts probably the best. This should be much the same as for hauling up a helpless second. At least there would be no difficulty for the rescuer escaping the system.
Anything the victim could do to help would be useful eg muscling up using any hand and footholds as rescuer is pulling. Possibly they could use slack ab rope nearer the top and this might be elongated with any spare slings, hexes, wires.
Regarding any difficulty hauling the victim over an edge: they should be able to use their own knees/legs against the rock to help lift the rope away from the rock.

Looney idea: rescuer hangs over edge from slings and can use own body weight and leg strength while hauling by leaning out (or upside down with feet under convenient overhang).
Loonier idea: rescuer clips revolver krab on sling from anchor to ab rope. Then attaches self via sling and krab to rope above the revolver and pulls himself down ab rope (body weight plus arm strength)(initial bit would be very hard). Meets victim 10m below ab ledge whereupon carries on down rock face with victim pulling on rope suspending rescuer to help movement. Hopefully victim struggles onto top and rescuer prusiks back up. Please excuse my early onset dementia.
ScraggyGoat on 28 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

'Looking for a self-sufficient solution' - if alone yes OK, though with an incapacitated casualty on the rope, and with the possibility the full extent of thier injuries yet to become apparent I think I'd make that Coastguard call first before starting a technical rope rescue. If I got my mate out before external assistance arrived I could phone back so that they can stand-down tasked units.

but if on a sea cliff with other climbers around asking for assistance would be very sensible.

Why commit yourself with no back-up and no plan 'b'?


andrew breckill on 29 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:
I'd just cut the rope. Call the coast guard.
oldie - on 29 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

"Loonier idea: rescuer clips revolver krab on sling from anchor to ab rope. Then attaches self via sling and krab to rope above the revolver and pulls himself down ab rope (body weight plus arm strength)(initial bit would be very hard). Meets victim 10m below ab ledge whereupon carries on down rock face with victim pulling on rope suspending rescuer to help movement. Hopefully victim struggles onto top and rescuer prusiks back up. "

Possible modifications to the above. In summary the method would involve a single pulley (the revolver) on the rope to the victim, with the rescuer hanging on a free sliding attachment (krab) to a loop created between the pulley and the bombproof anchor. Possibly rescuer just clips rope direct to harness belay loop with screwgate (no need for aforementioned sling). Ab rope and pulley are connected to the same anchors, however a different connection for the pulley might be necessary for free movement and to ensure that the moving ropes could not run across and melt through the stationary end of the ab rope (protective sheath?).
Once the rescuer has pulled down hand over hand and is about level with the victim (10m below the top as the 30m of rope to victim essentially runs in a Z-shape) rather than continuing down the rescuer prusiks back up the rope between their sliding krab and the pulley. The victim could pull with good arm on the rope hanging from the rescuer. It wouldn't matter if there was a seesaw effect with the victim moving up at times rather than the rescuer. Once the rescuer gets to the top their attachment is now via waist prusik and they hand over hand back down the rope between pulley and victim, with victim transferring as much of their weight as possible (temporary footwindings/loops?) to the rope hanging from the rescuer. Repeat. Eventually both victim and rescuer are near the top and victim might even find it useful to step on rescuer to reach safety.
The system seems to maximize use of body weight and make use of muscle strength from both parties. It is fairly simple in principle involving just one pulley and no complex clutch systems. Features on the rock face might be used by either party eg invert body and push with feet against bottom of bulge. However huge difficulties including friction over edges, interference between adjacent ropes etc etc.
Please shoot me down...this is all theory.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Toerag - on 29 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

> The anchor is Good, three points equalised to a single point, abseil rope clipped to it using a standard fig 8 on a bight.

Only an idiot would use a figure of 8 to anchor the rope when they can use a tied-off italian hitch to create a releasable abseil.
GrahamD - on 29 Jun 2017
In reply to Toerag:

In that case thats 90% or more of climbers are idiots. Personally I disagree. In the vast majority of abseil situations KISS is the safest way to set it up.
David Coley - on 29 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

1. phone and notify the rescue services of the situation.
2. mark the top of the crag so they can find you.
3. prusik down to him (you will need to remove and re-attach the prusiks as you go over the cliff edge)
4. when you reach him, set up another prusik above you (when you get to him you have the rack, so plenty of slings for prusiks) clip him to this and ask him to release his third hand and ab so he is hanging from the new prusik.
5. remove his belay plate from the rope and put yours on in y-hang format; place back up knot.
6. clip him to the y-hang, cut the prusik (or slide it if French prusik, or haul him onto it using a 2 to 1 built from a 120cm sling and your leg power)
7. abseil to the boulders (assuming above high tide) and await rescue.
8. if rescue not coming, prusik back up with the rope(s) already attached for an assisted hoist.
9. hoist from near the edge to reduce friction. If he is not in too much pain, he can use a foot prusik to help power the assisted hoist from his end.

Jon Greengrass on 29 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Do I have a knife?
David Coley - on 29 Jun 2017
In reply to Jon Greengrass:

> Do I have a knife?

I always keep a short length of 1mm cord wrapped around a pair of vent holes in my helmet as a "knife"
oldie - on 29 Jun 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Yet another hypothetical option:
Rescuer prusiks down to victim, ensures they're securely tied off and prusiks back up with one rope still coiled and the other has one end connected to victim. Rescuer then uncoils rope and ties frequent fig 8 on bights with big loops pointing either side of rope axis to form a step ladder with open slack loops so its easy to get feet in. Rescuer then lowers the "rope ladder" down to the victim and ties it off (if necessary one end of the other rope tied to it purely to help the victim to get the end of the ladder). Rescuer then belays and takes ab rope in (little stretch). Victim climbs rope ladder with tension assistance from the rescuer belaying and lifting via the ab rope. (Not easy as hanging free but good arm round ladder should help. First few feet very difficult as much initial ladder rope stretch.) "Ladder section" of rope will not be long enough and victim will need to take feet out once or twice for ladder to be hauled up and tied off again.
Advantages: very simple in principle involving no pulleys or clutches.
Improvements: Make the ab rope the rope ladder so victim doesn't have to deal with rope stretch. Use additional chest attachment, eg baudrier alpin, for increased stability.
I have used a knotted ladder to get a mate out of the water in a sea cave. However the distance was short and he was uninjured (though very cold).
oldie - on 12 Jul 2017
In reply to Jim Walton:

Rescuer "pulls himself down ab rope (body weight plus arm strength)....involves a single pulley (the revolver) on the rope to the victim, with the rescuer hanging on a free sliding attachment (krab) to a loop created between the pulley and the bombproof anchor."

Another possible modification regarding my earlier "loonier" suggestion: rescuer puts loose rocks (or other heavy items) in a strong rucksack and clips this next to his sliding attachment (a long sling would keep it out of his way). This would provide extra weight to the rescuer so it would be much easier to pull up the victim. The sac could even help to drag rescuer/climber up at later stages (or rocks could be jettisoned). Dangers obvious!

I stress this is all academic and I have little understanding of mechanics, but it could make hauling much easier.
In theory with enough weight and strong enough sac(s) the rescuer could stay at top and just use a bit of muscle power to tip the balance and pull victim up! Again dangers of loss of control etc.

Thanks OP, this is all far better than most Xmas cracker puzzles.

Please Register as a New User in order to reply to this topic.